Does the creation of space and time qualify as a miracle?

[BreezeWood]

Does the creation of space and time qualify as a miracle?

Approximately 14 billion years ago all of the matter and energy in the universe popped into existence out of nothing and occupied the space of 1 billionth of 1 trillionth the size of a single atom and then began to expand and cool.

.

Does the creation of space and time qualify as a miracle?

Approximately 14 billion years ago all of the matter and energy in the universe popped into existence out of nothing and occupied the space of 1 billionth of 1 trillionth the size of a single atom and then began to expand and cool.

- all of the matter and energy in the universe popped into existence ...

at the same time, no

the event was cyclical, compression from existing matter to energy, expansion of energy back to matter - the "pooping" was the moment after singularity was achieved.

life from the metaphysical is miraculous though self governed is less than improbable.

 

[ding]

According to inflation theory which is the leading cosmological model for how space and time began, space and time were created through a quantum tunneling event which followed the laws of conservation.

Fair enough, I'm roughly familiar with that idea. I think I'm just understanding "before the universe" a little differently than you. I would say that the theoretical state prior to the big bang, but in which those quantum potentials exist, is a state in which the universe also exists, even though it's a very different universe. But I wouldn't say the difference between that state of potential and the point immediately after the big bang is much larger than the difference between that post-big-bang point and the present, so it doesn't make a lot of sense to me to define one of those three points as being "before" the universe and the other two after it. I seem to recall reading some debates about the semantics of this though, or how to define "the beginning". It's an interesting philosophical problem at some point. Quantum foam isn't exactly "nothing" in the usual sense that people have in mind when they ask about creating Being from Nothingness. YMMV?

Here is inflation in a nutshell from Alexander Vilenkin.

If the universe is expanding then it must have a beginning. If you follow it backwards in time, then any object must come to a boundary of space time. You cannot continue that history indefinitely. This is still true even if a universe has periods of contraction. It still has to have a beginning if expansion over weights the contraction. Physicists have been uncomfortable with the idea of a beginning since the work of Friedman which showed that the solutions of Einstein's equation showed that the universe had a beginning. The problem with a cyclical universe is with the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics. If it is a periodic universe then the entropy will increase with each cycle. The 2nd Law of Thermodynamics is a fundamental law of nature which tells us that entropy can only increase or stay the same. Entropy can never decrease. Which means that in a finite amount of time, a finite system will reach a maximum state of disorder which is called thermal equilibrium and then it will stay in that state. A cyclical universe cannot avoid this problem.

The best explanation for how the universe began is the inflation model. It is possible for matter to have a beginning. In a closed universe the gravitational energy which is always negative exactly compensates the positive energy of matter. So the energy of a closed universe is always zero. So nothing prevents this universe from being spontaneously created. Because the net energy is always zero. The positive energy of matter is balanced by the negative energy of the gravity of that matter which is the space time curvature of that matter. There is no conservation law that prevents the formation of such a universe. In quantum mechanics if something is not forbidden by conservation laws, then it necessarily happens with some non-zero probability. So a closed universe can spontaneously appear - through the laws of quantum mechanics - out of nothing. And in fact there is an elegant mathematical description which describes this process and shows that a tiny closed universe having very high energy can spontaneously pop into existence and immediately start to expand and cool. In this description, the same laws that describe the evolution of the universe also describe the appearance of the universe which means that the laws were in place before the universe itself.

 

[ding]

You know what your problem is, Ding? I'll tell you. You can't think beyond the human experience. Either you refuse to or you're simply not capable of putting yourself aside from the bigger picture. The universe knew itself long before humanity added their opinions into the equation. It'll remember itself long after we're not in it to tell it how we think it should function according to us and our sacred beliefs and sacred truths.

Tell me how a bi-directional universe avoids having a beginning.

 

[ding]

You know what your problem is, Ding? I'll tell you. You can't think beyond the human experience. Either you refuse to or you're simply not capable of putting yourself aside from the bigger picture. The universe knew itself long before humanity added their opinions into the equation. It'll remember itself long after we're not in it to tell it how we think it should function according to us and our sacred beliefs and sacred truths.

The list of all my problems is long and distinguished. I'll add your complaints to it. Fair enough?

 

[Vastator]

Ones perception of where it “began” is limited to ones observation.

 

[Natural Citizen]

Ding, I knew you were gonna give me a thank you. lol. I knew it. lol. You're still wrong about the nature of universal direction, though. Mathematically, it runs both ways. It doesn't just inflate.

Alright. I'm done here. You drive me nuts, man. I say this jest, no hard feelings. lol.

Proceed....

 

[ding]

Ding, I knew you were gonna give me a thank you. lol. I knew it. lol. You're still wrong about the nature of universal direction, though. Mathematically, it runs both ways. It doesn't just inflate.

Alright. I'm done here. You drive me nuts, man. I say this jest, no hard feelings. lol.

Proceed....

Sort of like how I knew you couldn't tell me what the bi-directional nature of the universe means in the context of did the universe spontaneously appear out of nothing.

 

[Natural Citizen]

Ding, I knew you were gonna give me a thank you. lol. I knew it. lol. You're still wrong about the nature of universal direction, though. Mathematically, it runs both ways. It doesn't just inflate.

Alright. I'm done here. You drive me nuts, man. I say this jest, no hard feelings. lol.

Proceed....

Sort of like how I knew you couldn't tell me what the bi-directional nature of the universe means in the context of did the universe spontaneously appear out of nothing.

If you'd have read what I wrote several postings back, I did. At least theoretically.

The only one talking about the universe springing out of nothing here has been you, Ding. I get it, though. You need that to be true. You need people to believe tha tthis is the only ansewer and that no more questions need asking in order to sell your deity. You're not the forst. You won't be the last.

Science isn't really the best platform for apologetics, Ding. At some pint, you're almost always going to run into someone who knows what they're talking about.

 

[ding]

Ding, I knew you were gonna give me a thank you. lol. I knew it. lol. You're still wrong about the nature of universal direction, though. Mathematically, it runs both ways. It doesn't just inflate.

Alright. I'm done here. You drive me nuts, man. I say this jest, no hard feelings. lol.

Proceed....

Sort of like how I knew you couldn't tell me what the bi-directional nature of the universe means in the context of did the universe spontaneously appear out of nothing.

If you'd have read what I wrote several postings back, I did. At least theoretically.

The only one talking about the universe springing out of nothing here has been you, Ding. I get it, though. You need that to be true. You need people to believe tha tthis is the only ansewer and that no more questions need asking in order to sell your deity. You're not the forst. You won't be the last.

Science isn't really the best platform for apologetics, Ding.

I read it but it doesn't address the subject of a beginning. But I did provide a response that was directed at two possible directions you could go.

You are being quite vague on the origin of the universe. Purposely so.

 

[Natural Citizen]

Of course, that's not to say the good Lord isn't a good physicist. He certainly is. His disciples really ought not keep trying to prove him wrong all the time like they know better than He does about how his stuff works. lol.

 

[Wry Catcher]

Does the creation of space and time qualify as a miracle?

Approximately 14 billion years ago all of the matter and energy in the universe popped into existence out of nothing and occupied the space of 1 billionth of 1 trillionth the size of a single atom and then began to expand and cool.

Well it was one thing, a big bang, or a little bang when Eve was created.

 

[ding]

Of course, that's not to say the good Lord isn't a good physicist. He certainly is. His disciples really ought not keep trying to prove him wrong all the time like they know better than He does about how his stuff works. lol.

Science is the study of nature to discover the order within nature to make predictions about nature.

 

[Montrovant]

So there's only one thing that constitutes a miracle to you? That's an odd definition.

Give me a break. I'm not here to play games or to quibble. Define miracle any way you want. I am sorry if you missed the humor in my response.

I responded to humor with humor.

Put me down for a 'no' as far as a miracle, as I don't think any sort of divine or supernatural power is required for the existence of the universe. It could be a miracle, but doesn't have to be.

You mean you don't believe it is a miracle for existence to pop out of nothing?

Not necessarily. Assuming that is an accurate description of events, that existence did "pop out of nothing," I would repeat that a divine or supernatural cause is possible, but not necessarily true. As I understand it, before the Big Bang it is theorized that the physical laws of the universe may not have applied or existed. Who knows what may have caused the creation of the universe, or if such terms even make sense for the beginning of our reality?

The leading cosmological model - Inflation - says otherwise.

Inflation says that the physical laws of our universe existed prior to (if that term even makes sense in this context) the Big Bang? Or Inflation says that a divine or supernatural power must have created the universe? I'm uncertain what you are claiming Inflation says otherwise.

 

[Montrovant]

Does the creation of space and time qualify as a miracle?

Approximately 14 billion years ago all of the matter and energy in the universe popped into existence out of nothing and occupied the space of 1 billionth of 1 trillionth the size of a single atom and then began to expand and cool.

Define “a miracle”...

post # 12
supposedly a miracle is anything you want to believe according to ding

Hmmmm... the ancients thought miraculous, that which they didn’t understand...

But we do understand this. Existence spontaneously appeared out of nothing 14 billion years ago. The Laws of Nature, which existed before space and time itself, predestined intelligence to exist. That ought to rouse some suspicions.

How did the laws of nature exist before nature existed?

 

[ding]

Give me a break. I'm not here to play games or to quibble. Define miracle any way you want. I am sorry if you missed the humor in my response.

I responded to humor with humor.

Put me down for a 'no' as far as a miracle, as I don't think any sort of divine or supernatural power is required for the existence of the universe. It could be a miracle, but doesn't have to be.

You mean you don't believe it is a miracle for existence to pop out of nothing?

Not necessarily. Assuming that is an accurate description of events, that existence did "pop out of nothing," I would repeat that a divine or supernatural cause is possible, but not necessarily true. As I understand it, before the Big Bang it is theorized that the physical laws of the universe may not have applied or existed. Who knows what may have caused the creation of the universe, or if such terms even make sense for the beginning of our reality?

The leading cosmological model - Inflation - says otherwise.

Inflation says that the physical laws of our universe existed prior to (if that term even makes sense in this context) the Big Bang? Or Inflation says that a divine or supernatural power must have created the universe? I'm uncertain what you are claiming Inflation says otherwise.

The former. That the laws of nature as we know them existed before space and time. Which begs the question where did the laws of nature come from.

And not just some of the laws of nature; all of the laws of nature. Such that beings that know and create were predestined to arise. In other words, before space and time existed, the potential for beings that know and create existed.

 

[ding]

Does the creation of space and time qualify as a miracle?

Approximately 14 billion years ago all of the matter and energy in the universe popped into existence out of nothing and occupied the space of 1 billionth of 1 trillionth the size of a single atom and then began to expand and cool.

Define “a miracle”...

post # 12
supposedly a miracle is anything you want to believe according to ding

Hmmmm... the ancients thought miraculous, that which they didn’t understand...

But we do understand this. Existence spontaneously appeared out of nothing 14 billion years ago. The Laws of Nature, which existed before space and time itself, predestined intelligence to exist. That ought to rouse some suspicions.

How did the laws of nature exist before nature existed?

As a consequence of reality or existence.

We live in a universe that follows rules. Which means that everything which happens, happens for a reason. Without rules there could be no reason, so the rules must have existed first.

 

[Dont Taz Me Bro]

Does the creation of space and time qualify as a miracle?

Approximately 14 billion years ago all of the matter and energy in the universe popped into existence out of nothing and occupied the space of 1 billionth of 1 trillionth the size of a single atom and then began to expand and cool.

Your lack of understanding doesn't make something miraculous.

 

[Vastator]

Define “a miracle”...

post # 12
supposedly a miracle is anything you want to believe according to ding

Hmmmm... the ancients thought miraculous, that which they didn’t understand...

But we do understand this. Existence spontaneously appeared out of nothing 14 billion years ago. The Laws of Nature, which existed before space and time itself, predestined intelligence to exist. That ought to rouse some suspicions.

How did the laws of nature exist before nature existed?

As a consequence of reality or existence.

We live in a universe that follows rules. Which means that everything which happens, happens for a reason. Without rules there could be no reason, so the rules must have existed first.

The part of the universe that we are capable of observing seems to follow rules. We are far from having observed the entire universe. Nor do we even know where it starts, or ends. Or even where, and when it started, and will end...

 

[Montrovant]

Define “a miracle”...

post # 12
supposedly a miracle is anything you want to believe according to ding

Hmmmm... the ancients thought miraculous, that which they didn’t understand...

But we do understand this. Existence spontaneously appeared out of nothing 14 billion years ago. The Laws of Nature, which existed before space and time itself, predestined intelligence to exist. That ought to rouse some suspicions.

How did the laws of nature exist before nature existed?

As a consequence of reality or existence.

We live in a universe that follows rules. Which means that everything which happens, happens for a reason. Without rules there could be no reason, so the rules must have existed first.

Why? Could not the rules have come into existence with the universe? Even if there were rules before the universe, why did they need to be the same rules?

And again, this entire line of reasoning may be somewhat complicated by the fact that we're talking about the creation of both space and time. Can something be said to have existed 'before' time? Time is a requirement of 'before.' It is a concept based on time. If time did not exist, before was not a valid concept.

 

[ding]

Does the creation of space and time qualify as a miracle?

Approximately 14 billion years ago all of the matter and energy in the universe popped into existence out of nothing and occupied the space of 1 billionth of 1 trillionth the size of a single atom and then began to expand and cool.

Your lack of understanding doesn't make something miraculous.

But I have understanding. Space and time popped into existence out of nothing. It did so following the laws of nature which existed before space and time. Laws which predestined intelligence to arise.

All of matter and energy occupying the space of 1 billionth of 1 trillionth the size of a single atom seems miraculous to me. Especially when you realize that the matter and energy that make up who you are today was present for the event.