Debate Now Does it make sense to accept God's existence based solely on the arguments presented for it?

Discussion in 'Debate Now - Structured Discussion Forum' started by 320 Years of History, Nov 4, 2015.

  1. Damaged Eagle
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    Damaged Eagle Pirate, Outlaw, & Rebel Gold Supporting Member Supporting Member

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    BTW... Was the cat dead or alive?

    *****CHUCKLE*****



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  2. Xelor
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    Given that you embarked on the discussion with notions of Pantheism in your mind when the OP expressly set a Judeo-Christian context, I guess I'm not surprised you think that to be so.
     
  3. Damaged Eagle
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    If his purpose is to discuss God only in the Judeo-Christian context then he should have stated that in the title of his thread. Furthermore he should have left out any arguments by Aristotle and Plato on the subject because they were neither Jewish nor Christian. Additionally he sited other religious beliefs during his OP which fall well outside the Judeo-Christian beliefs. Hence that makes this discussion about the existence of God encompassing more than the Judeo-Christian context and turns it into a general discussion about everyone's belief system about God. Which BTW includes mine.

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  4. Damaged Eagle
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    However since you want some Judeo-Christian Pantheism...

    ******************************************************************************************************

    Gospel of Luke, KJV:

    20 Once, on being asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, Jesus replied, “The coming of the kingdom of God is not something that can be observed,
    21 nor will people say, ‘Here it is,’ or ‘There it is, because the kingdom of God is in your midst.”

    *******************************************************************************************************

    Gospel of Thomas, Nag Hammadi Library:

    2. Jesus said, "Those who seek should not stop seeking until they find. When they find, they will be disturbed. When they are disturbed, they will marvel, and will reign over all. [And after they have reigned they will rest.]"
    3. Jesus said, "If your leaders say to you, 'Look, the (Father's) kingdom is in the sky,' then the birds of the sky will precede you. If they say to you, 'It is in the sea,' then the fish will precede you. Rather, the (Father's) kingdom is within you and it is outside you.

    When you know yourselves, then you will be known, and you will understand that you are children of the living Father. But if you do not know yourselves, then you live in poverty, and you are the poverty."


    77. Jesus said, "I am the light that is over all things. I am all: from me all came forth, and to me all attained.
    Split a piece of wood; I am there.
    Lift up the stone, and you will find me there."


    ********************************************************************************************************

    Gospel of Philip, Nag Hammadi Library:

    "The Father" and "the Son" are single names; "the Holy Spirit" is a double name. For they are everywhere: they are above, they are below; they are in the concealed, they are in the revealed. The Holy Spirit is in the revealed: it is below. It is in the concealed: it is above.

    *********************************************************************************************************

    Paul to the Ephesians also has some very intriguing passages.

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  5. Xelor
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    For accomplished readers, there is no need for such an explicit title statement. Context makes it clear, particularly the three passages I provided to you. Indeed, the essay's opening sentence -- "Almost daily in United States one encounters stimuli that ask one to accept that God (in the Judeo-Christian sense of the word/being) exists. " -- establishes that context. That the essay, thus thread questions/theme, repeatedly expressly states "Judeo-Christian" conceptions of God as the framework under consideration establishes solidly that context for the discussion. As if that were not enough, the first paragraph of the essay concludes by asking expressly whether it is "rational to believe in The Divine as depicted in Jewish and Christian theological traditions."

    Here again, you demonstrate utter reading ineptitude by your failing to recognize the contextual relevance of Plato and Aristotle's being mention in connection with TCA. The TCA is a general notion that derives from a long held understanding that needs no particular or any form of theism to comprehend. Things, for the most part, do not arise out of nothing. Aquinas didn't invent that notion, but he is who adopted it as a means for arguing that his Judeo-Christian God exists.

    Quite simply, Plato and Aristotle did not present arguments for monotheism, much less for the Judeo-Christian concept of God. For in Plato, one does not find "God," only "god" or "gods." God was not for Plato the name of a being or entity.

    Aristotle presented the "uncaused cause" or "Prime Mover" idea. His concept of the Prime Mover is essentially that of Pantheism's God. Aristotle, who was clearly a monotheist, argued that the Prime Mover had to be immaterial. It could not be made of any kind of stuff, because matter is capable of being acted upon, it has potential to change. Since it is immaterial, it cannot perform any kind of physical, bodily action. Therefore, Aristotle thought, the activity of the Prime Mover, God, must be purely spiritual and intellectual. Thus, for Aristotle too, God was not the anthropomorphic God of Jews and Christians.

    Is your reading comprehension so bad that you fail to glean that not only have I no desire for any "Judeo-Christian Pantheism," I'm not going to discuss further anything having to do with Pantheism in this thread? The thread's OP may indulge that thematic shift of the thread's focus; that's his/her purview as the creator of the thread. I will not; I don't suffer fools at all.
     
  6. Damaged Eagle
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    My reading comprehension is just fine. The OP repeatedly points out that God could not exist even outside the Judeo-Christian context. I additionally note that the OP has, as of yet, come in to dispute that he is only bashing on the Judeo-Christian belief. So as far as I'm concerned all this thread really is is a pathetic attempt to state that there is no God by the OP and now by yourself. While your current response is no more than the predicted progressive belittling rhetoric that any poster receives when attempting to discuss things with a progressive.

    You and the OP have fun with your little we don't believe in God tantrum.

    Do you all need a coloring book or something?

    *****SMILE*****



    :)

    Parting thoughts on Judeo-Christian Pantheism:

    GENSIS 1:3, KJV

    1. In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. 2. And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. 3. And God said, Let there be light: and there was light. 4. And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness. 5. And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day. 6. And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.
     
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  7. Damaged Eagle
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    What????? Weren't expecting someone to be a Pantheist?

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  8. SeaGal
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    I've chosen to address only your opening and closing statements - hopefully that is within the framework of the debate structure.


    The phrase 'In God we trust' is not an endorsement of, or a call to worship the God of the Bible. It is there because the addition of 'Laws of Nature and Nature's God' (see DOI) wouldn't fit on the head of a dime...and it is a reminder that our 'trust' and certain unalienable rights must never depend on the likes of King George...or the whim of any other worldly leader...but are granted as a condition of humanity by a higher authority, which can be as constant and no more 'supernatural' than 'Nature's God'.

    Logic is too small a man made box to contain the concept of a creator of universe and life...beyond philosophical musing it is seldom the written 'logic of God existing' that drives belief in Him. I take exception to the parameters implied by the use of the phrase 'one should' based on the conclusions of your reasoning no matter how logical you deem it be. You can only truly determine what you should do. Do you understand that?...

    My own conclusion, in response to the question - 'Does it make sense to accept God's existence based solely on the arguments presented for it?' Of course - I can look at the magnificent world around me, the intricacies of a single stand of dna, the vastness of the universe, the complexity of a living blade of grass...and logic says, how can there not be.

    I do not mean to disparage the time, the passion and the thought that went into your post. That is admirable - but, it's a bit too conditional as to what 'others' should do, be, believe - somewhat 'preachy'. :)
     

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