Do you have a problem with Tennessee's "curbs [for] trans treatment and drag for children"?

[Robz]

If you're talking about Dr. Steensma's study here is the summary of his own follow up in 2013.

No, talking of the reanalyis after Bryan's critique. They reanalyzed the data, and found 67% that met the dsm5 threshold still desisted. So, as you quoted, the more intense the more likely to persist. But, even of those with the most intensity of feeling, a majority desisted.

You can read a critique of Dr Zuckers work

You must not realize, they had to apologize to Ken zucker and pay him money.

 

[Curried Goats]

No, talking of the reanalyis after Bryan's critique. They reanalyzed the data, and found 67% that met the dsm5 threshold still desisted. So, as you quoted, the more intense the more likely to persist. But, even of those with the most intensity of feeling, a majority desisted.



You must not realize, they had to apologize to Ken zucker and pay him money.

Paying Zucker means nothing. What exactly he was paid for isn't exactly clear. It seems there was intimation that he had called a patient names in an incident that couldn't be verified and it seems he was paid off for that, not because his practices were vindicated. Again, no one considers trying to influence children to accept their assigned birth gender is even ethical by today's understanding. The concern Sweden and Finland have with gender affirming care is that they see a danger in this approach reinforcing feelings of being trans but trying to influence children in the opposite way and ignoring their assessments of themselves is even more harmful diagnostically.

 

[Seymour Flops]

Yes, I brought up healthcare providers and you brought up Nazi doctors because you're a clown not ready to have an adult conversation. I have not once suggested any doctor is above question, I suggest that their medical opinions require serious consideration and in the case of disagreement, serious rebuttal. Your rebuttal seems to boil down to "they are all on the take" and "the nazi had doctors too". I'm going to consider, for the sake of argument, that you really think these are serious rebuttals to their scientific evidence but I don't.

They are a rebuttal to any suggestion - such as the one you made - that laypeople should not question healthy care providers.

I get that you also include rebuttals from other doctors and researchers but their conclusions are not the same as yours. None of your links suggest the doctors who's work is being questioned is wrong because they're groomers or on the take.

Nor should they. That the people who profit from the most intrusive treatment methods have a financial motivation for advocating them is common sense for normal people who do not need a study to tell them that. That people who take such a strong interest in the genders of other people's children are extremely creepy is also common sense for normal people.

What we have are professionals disagreeing with one another about results and trying to find better methods to treat children with GD.

Which destroys your claim that all the professionals agree with you.

I can simply ask them what the numbers are on actual detransitioners and they have no answer. Also there are more than just the Dutch study that show the benefits of trans care.

When did you ask them that?

I've been here this whole time my guy. It really hurts you that I have a life doesn't it?

What that doesn't explain to me is why you support the age of adulthood being 21 when the science says our brains aren't fully developed until 25. I didn't ask you about how the laws came to be but nice try at a dodge.

You have consistently insisted that I defend positions that I did not take. As I said well upthread:

Maybe the age for adulthood should be set at 25, given that this is the scientific consensus for maturity as measured by brain development.

Link at bottom.

I don’t have any idea what genitalia that little girl has and it didn't even occur me to think about it.

Now, you're just lying. She's trans, and hasn't had surgery. She's a young girl with a penis, which I'm sure is your favorite porn genre, and the younger the better.

This is just more projection by you. She doesn't ever mention her genitalia so I'm not sure why thoughts of her genitalia would ever enter your mind. What she speaks about and why I shared it here, is her experience with gender confusion. Her depression and loneliness over being bullied and not being able to be her authentic self in public and how much better she felt after finding a school and a community that would allow her to do that without constant hate and vitriol. You're the one who boiled her experiences down to her sexuality and genitalia. That's an undeniable fact.

You posted the video. I would have never heard of her if not for your using her for your bizarre argument.

Yes. Healthcare isn't something children typically provide themselves. How astute of you.

Poisoning the body with chemicals to remove cancer is also harmful in many ways. Still, when necessary, we even do it to children. The medical reason for top surgery could be to prevent or remove cancerous tissue or to alleviate distress associated with gender dysphoria.

There are reliable studies that show that removing breasts for a breast cancer patient has a benefit. There are none that show removing the breasts of a fourteen year old gender dysphoria patient does anything but permanent harm.

Yes. Children do not provide their own healthcare. It's weird but also slightly funny I have to keep reiterating that point to you as if you're confused by it.

Then let's not pretend that children are choosing what you so badly want for them.

I don't want that. What I want is simple. I want children, their parents or guardians and their doctors to able to make whatever decisions they feel are in their best interests medically and I have a bigger faith in the medical community at large determining what medical practices are sound or unethical over politicians and certainly over Republican politicians.

So you would be fine with a child who has Body Dysmorphic Disorder being subjected to multiple cosmetic surgeries in a vain attempt to make their body match their idealized version of it?

Of course, you would. That's exactly what you advocate for Gender Dysphoria and I know you want to be consistent.

I don't think those two things are at all similar.

Similar or not, do you think age of consent laws should be gotten rid of to allow parents, children, and doctors decide when a child is old enough for sex with adults? Should Democrats and Republicans make th decision about when a child has sex?

It was Republican legislators that recently killed a bill to ban child marriages in West Virginia.

OK.

Republicans want teenagers who get pregnant to be able to marry the baby's father, and try to give the kid a chance at a decent life. Is that worse than allowing teenagers and grown men to knock up several baby mammas and have the supported by the taxpayers?

Maybe the age for adulthood should be set at 25, given that this is the scientific consensus for maturity as measured by brain development.

 

[Robz]

Paying Zucker means nothing. What exactly he was paid for isn't exactly clear. It seems there was intimation that he had called a patient names in an incident that couldn't be verified and it seems he was paid off for that, not because his practices were vindicated. Again, no one considers trying to influence children to accept their assigned birth gender is even ethical by today's understanding.

It's quite a bit more than that and yes, they did review the clinics practices. They then apologized for more than just the alleged name calling.

The concern Sweden and Finland have with gender affirming care is that they see a danger in this approach reinforcing feelings of being trans but trying to influence children in the opposite way and ignoring their assessments of themselves is even more harmful diagnostically.

not accurate. Sweden indicated they have seen an increase in detransitioning and transition related regret. So, they have now recommending psych and gender exploration. It's not "watchful waiting" and not "affirmation"... it is far closer to 'conversion therapy'. It's not really conversion therapy, but that's how the loony trans activists that went after zucker would describe it.

Finland is also emphasizing psych therapy over any medicaliation.

 

[Curried Goats]

It's quite a bit more than that and yes, they did review the clinics practices. They then apologized for more than just the alleged name calling.

No they didn't. They and every other piece I read on Zucker calls his methods outdated and unethical. He basically took conversion therapy for gays and tried to transpose it to trans care. I can't find a single institution currently providing care that supports his methods.

not accurate. Sweden indicated they have seen an increase in detransitioning and transition related regret. So, they have now recommending psych and gender exploration. It's not "watchful waiting" and not "affirmation"... it is far closer to 'conversion therapy'. It's not really conversion therapy, but that's how the loony trans activists that went after zucker would describe it.

Finland is also emphasizing psych therapy over any medicaliation.

Wrong. There are no detransition numbers. If you believe there are then present them. No one knows what percentage there actually are but all the estimates I've seen range from 2% to 12% which means even on the worst end of the estimate we're talking about an 88% who don't. Why Sweden and Finland are pulling back isn't because there's been a notable increase in detransitioners but because there's been a notable increase in GD diagnosis, especially among female to male transitioners. About 1,500% increase in GD in Sweden between 2008 and 2018.

 

[Curried Goats]

They are a rebuttal to any suggestion - such as the one you made - that laypeople should not question healthy care providers.

Go ahead and question them but if your questions are all about being on the take and nazis and you don't have a shred of evidence pointing to either one then don't expect me or anyone else to take you seriously.

Nor should they. That the people who profit from the most intrusive treatment methods have a financial motivation for advocating them is common sense for normal people who do not need a study to tell them that. That people who take such a strong interest in the genders of other people's children are extremely creepy is also common sense for normal people.

You just described bigots. People convinced of others ill behavior and bad intent without any evidence whatsoever.

Which destroys your claim that all the professionals agree with you.

All the professionals agree GD is real. None of the professionals believe it's a made up issue by groomers.

When did you ask them that?

It was a figure of speech fool, I was actually asking you that since you're the one presenting their argument. Do you have any numbers on detransitioners?

You have consistently insisted that I defend positions that I did not take. As I said well upthread:

Maybe the age for adulthood should be set at 25, given that this is the scientific consensus for maturity as measured by brain development.

Link at bottom.

You did support the age of adulthood being 21. The science says brain maturity is achieved at 25. Why the discrepancy?

Now, you're just lying. She's trans, and hasn't had surgery. She's a young girl with a penis, which I'm sure is your favorite porn genre, and the younger the better.

I'm not sure why you continue to fantasize about my porn viewing habits or the genitalia of young girls but that's literally what you're doing.

You posted the video. I would have never heard of her if not for your using her for your bizarre argument.

I did post the video and it has nothing to do with porn, sexuality or genitalia. No one but you forced you to think of those things while viewing that video. That's all you. Facts.

There are reliable studies that show that removing breasts for a breast cancer patient has a benefit. There are none that show removing the breasts of a fourteen year old gender dysphoria patient does anything but permanent harm.

No studies according to you. There are professionals who feel differently and trans patients who are adults now and can speak about their own experiences. Other people's medical care shouldn't be up to you or Republican bigots to decide.

Then let's not pretend that children are choosing what you so badly want for them.

I don't have to pretend, these children can speak for themselves and they are starting to.

So you would be fine with a child who has Body Dysmorphic Disorder being subjected to multiple cosmetic surgeries in a vain attempt to make their body match their idealized version of it?

Nope. That's a mental disorder GD is not.

Of course, you would. That's exactly what you advocate for Gender Dysphoria and I know you want to be consistent.

I can also speak for myself. You seem to have a difficult time allowing people to make their own arguments.

Similar or not, do you think age of consent laws should be gotten rid of to allow parents, children, and doctors decide when a child is old enough for sex with adults? Should Democrats and Republicans make th decision about when a child has sex?

Sex and healthcare are not the same thing. Its twice I've had to say that to you now. Are you confused by the statement?

OK.

Republicans want teenagers who get pregnant to be able to marry the baby's father, and try to give the kid a chance at a decent life. Is that worse than allowing teenagers and grown men to knock up several baby mammas and have the supported by the taxpayers?

Are you seriously defending child marriages? I don't think a baby's life is greatly improved because two 14 years got married after getting pregnant, neither one of them is in a better position to raise a child just because they're now hitched and I see no benefit in rewarding child rapists with child brides but then again I'm not a deplorable mutant Republican who literally fantasizes about a young girls genitalia.

 

[Seymour Flops]

All the professionals agree GD is real. None of the professionals believe it's a made up issue by groomers.

Gender dysphoria is real, for a tiny fraction of a percent of the population. Just as body dysmorphia is real for a tiny percent of the population. The recent sharp increase in claims of gender dysphoria means that it is being promoted more so than diagnosed.

As real as the mental disorder of gender dysphoria is, mental disorders should be treated with therapy, not surgery.

It was a figure of speech fool, I was actually asking you that since you're the one presenting their argument. Do you have any numbers on detransitioners?

I've seen figures between 4% and 13%.

You did support the age of adulthood being 21. The science says brain maturity is achieved at 25. Why the discrepancy?

Where did I support that? I posted a quote from myself in this thread where I questioned it. Anyway, 21 or 25, would still interfere your fantasy of feminized early teen boys, so it's irrelevant. Just your attempt to derail the conversation about your desire to have adults push children into become chemically femininized boys. You haven't posted an vids of chemically masculinized girls, so I guess that isn't something that you're into?

But you'll still support it, just because those evil Republicans you fear oppose it.

I'm not sure why you continue to fantasize about my porn viewing habits or the genitalia of young girls but that's literally what you're doing.

You posted the video. Ask the mods to take it down if you are rightfully embarassed about it.

I did post the video and it has nothing to do with porn, sexuality or genitalia. No one but you forced you to think of those things while viewing that video. That's all you. Facts.

What makes that girl different from typical other girls? Different enough that you post a video of her?

No studies according to you. There are professionals who feel differently and trans patients who are adults now and can speak about their own experiences. Other people's medical care shouldn't be up to you or Republican bigots to decide.

I don't have to pretend, these children can speak for themselves and they are starting to.

Nope. That's a mental disorder GD is not.

That's absurd. Gender Dysphoria is a mental disorder.

Diagnosis​

The Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, Fifth Edition, Text Revision (DSM-5-TR)1 provides for one overarching diagnosis of gender dysphoria with separate specific criteria for children and for adolescents and adults.

I can also speak for myself. You seem to have a difficult time allowing people to make their own arguments.

Sex and healthcare are not the same thing. Its twice I've had to say that to you now. Are you confused by the statement?

Mutilating a healthy child's heathy genitals is not "healthcare."

Are you seriously defending child marriages? I don't think a baby's life is greatly improved because two 14 years got married after getting pregnant, neither one of them is in a better position to raise a child just because they're now hitched and I see no benefit in rewarding child rapists with child brides but then again I'm not a deplorable mutant Republican who literally fantasizes about a young girls genitalia.

No, you only want to reward child rapists with free benefits for their baby mommas.

 

[Seymour Flops]

We need to teach these kids to accept themselves as they are, not subjecting them to chemicals and surgery.

Socially transitioning I'm fine with, as long as parents approve. In fact, I would find it very disrespectful to insist on calling a transgirl by her boys name. Families have the right to decide a child's name, don't they? Let them dress how they please, and use whichever binary pronouns they choose.

But three things:

1) Don't get pissy when someone calls "sir" if you are unsuccessfully trying to look female. That's your make up's fault, not theirs. If you're a short-haired feminist in jeans and a tool company t-shirt over a tight sports bra, don't get pissy if someone calls you "sir," or "ma'am" and you wanted them to say the opposite. Come up with a gender neutral honorific and I'll use it.

Just not "comrade," ok?

2) It is patently unsafe for biological females to go into bathrooms for males, or vice-versa. In school, there is the nurse's bathroom and most everywhere else there are family bathrooms intended for one person or a parent with a kid. Use them and be grateful they are there for your safety. Don't whine about being "excluded" for not being able to join the girls for whatever girls seem to like to go the bathroom together for.

3) No one in their right mind truly believes that hormones and surgeries for children to make them appear more like the opposite sex is a good idea. Sorry, not buying it. People who pretend to think it is a good idea are motivated by profit or politics, or a creepy attraction to altered kids. Surgery and hormones can wait.

 

[Robz]

No they didn't. They and every other piece I read on Zucker calls his methods outdated and unethical. He basically took conversion therapy for gays and tried to transpose it to trans care. I can't find a single institution currently providing care that supports his methods.

They stated the report contained errros (more than one) about his clinical practice and his interactions. They further state that only one of the errors in their report was the accusation of calling a patient a name.

At the time of Zucker, 'watchful waiting' was more prevalent. 'Watchful waiting' would now be deemed 'transphobic' by the radical loons. So, they have now moved to 'informed consent' or 'affirmation'. What Ken Zucker did at the time, was far-far closer to what multiple countries and medical organizations are now recommending. therapy without medicalization for kids.

Wrong. There are no detransition numbers. If you believe there are then present them. No one knows what percentage there actually are but all the estimates I've seen range from 2% to 12% which means even on the worst end of the estimate we're talking about an 88% who don't.

That is true. We do not know how many detrans. That's a problem, not a feature. While we don't know how many, there are more. Multiple sources are confirming, including the 2020 study i posted recently.

There are multiple limitations with the studies you would likely quote showing 1% etc. For example, the most commonly cited study on detrans, only included people that 'still identified as transgender'. Detransitioners would be excluded. Another commonly cited study, only did a medical records search (at that clinic) for the word 'regret', 'detransition', etc. That is how they obtain their low numbers.

Below, I have provided an excerpt from a study that found 30% detrans.
The problem with the below study, is they do not know why patients stopped taking their hormones. All the studies on detransitioners are severely flawed in one way or another.

Research needs to be done, and rushing patients to transition with less gatekeeping is a problem.

Why Sweden and Finland are pulling back isn't because there's been a notable increase in detransitioners but because there's been a notable increase in GD diagnosis, especially among female to male transitioners. About 1,500% increase in GD in Sweden between 2008 and 2018.

There are multiple reasons for the change. You should at least read the summary they provided of their changes, though you should read the entire policy change and not just the summary.

 

[Robz]

...and because we are now quite off track on zucker, just to remind you... they re-ran the numbers and found that even those that met the dsm5 defintion and had the strongest feelings of being the opposite sex, desisted at 67%

 

[Curried Goats]

Gender dysphoria is real, for a tiny fraction of a percent of the population. Just as body dysmorphia is real for a tiny percent of the population. The recent sharp increase in claims of gender dysphoria means that it is being promoted more so than diagnosed.

No, it doesn't. Your assumption that promotion is at the heart of the increase is not supported by any evidence you've presented and so remains nothing more than a baseless claim.

You posted the video. Ask the mods to take it down if you are rightfully embarassed about it.

I'm not at all embarrassed by you sharing your literal fantasies of a 14 year olds girl's sexuality and genitalia. I have no control over how people like you react when they see adolescent children talking about their emotional suffering.

What makes that girl different from typical other girls? Different enough that you post a video of her?

She's trans, it's kind of relevant to the conversation or does the Right wing never think to include the people they're legislating about in the conversation about the legislation?

That's absurd. Gender Dysphoria is a mental disorder.

Diagnosis​

The Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, Fifth Edition, Text Revision (DSM-5-TR)1 provides for one overarching diagnosis of gender dysphoria with separate specific criteria for children and for adolescents and adults.

You didn't read any of the information in that link did you? Let me quote for you the 3rd paragraph down on the page you yourself linked to.

It is important to note that gender identity is different from gender expression. Whereas gender identity refers to one’s psychological sense of their gender, gender expression refers to the way in which one presents to the world in a gendered way. For example, in much of the U.S., wearing a dress is considered a “feminine” gender expression, and wearing a tuxedo is considered a “masculine” gender expression. Such expectations are culturally defined and vary across time and culture. One’s gender expression does not necessarily align with their gender identity. Diverse gender expressions, much like diverse gender identities, are not indications of a mental disorder.

Mutilating a healthy child's heathy genitals is not "healthcare."

You dont even know how to read a link properly and not even and Sweden or Finland go that far they are just reserving that sort of care for the most extreme of cases.

No, you only want to reward child rapists with free benefits for their baby mommas.

You mean I want to help victims of child rape? Yes. Of course I do. What kind of monster wouldnt?

 

[Curried Goats]

To start, I'm not discussing research you only provide a snippet of. That isnt enough for context. If you want me to take them seriously and discuss them then you need to provide links so I can see for myself the context this snippets were made.

They stated the report contained errros (more than one) about his clinical practice and his interactions. They further state that only one of the errors in their report was the accusation of calling a patient a name.

At the time of Zucker, 'watchful waiting' was more prevalent. 'Watchful waiting' would now be deemed 'transphobic' by the radical loons. So, they have now moved to 'informed consent' or 'affirmation'. What Ken Zucker did at the time, was far-far closer to what multiple countries and medical organizations are now recommending. therapy without medicalization for kids.

Zucker himself admits to trying to influence GD children into accepting their gender assigned at birth.

Former CAMH psychologist who received half a million payout defends his work at youth gender identity clinic

Zucker said the clinic actively tried to encourage young patients to accept their biological sex in a bid to “reduce a child’s gender dysphoria,” but rejected the notion that this approach amounted to conversion therapy.

 

[Robz]

To start, I'm not discussing research you only provide a snippet of. That isnt enough for context. If you want me to take them seriously and discuss them then you need to provide links so I can see for myself the context this snippets were made.

I simply wonder if you can see your hypocrisy.

You never read the actual studies of the detransition rates you quote showing 1%, etc. You almost certainly had no idea of the context, such as how they were defining "regret" or "detransition" or how they made that determination until I just informed you a little bit ago. You just heard the number and liked them.

You refuse to accept a study showing a higher rate of detransition - even though I provided the exact limitation. However, you were happy to accept, without that needed context, studies showing low rates.

Zucker himself admits to trying to influence GD children into accepting their gender assigned at birth.

Former CAMH psychologist who received half a million payout defends his work at youth gender identity clinic

Zucker said the clinic actively tried to encourage young patients to accept their biological sex in a bid to “reduce a child’s gender dysphoria,” but rejected the notion that this approach amounted to conversion therapy.

I also wonder if you understand that you keep moving the goal posts.

Me: They apologized and paid Dr. Zucker

You: That means nothing. they only paid him and apologized because they couldn't confirm he called a kid a name.

Me: No, they apologized for multiple errors, including criticism of his clinical practices.

You: yeah... well... 'conversion therapy'.

Now, from the cite you provided:

The independent reviewers said in their report that they were unable to ascertain whether the clinic was in fact practising conversion therapy.

Reviewers did find, however, that the clinic focused on intensive assessment and treatment in lieu of more modern approaches. It said today’s best practices favour watchful waiting, as well as educating and supporting parents to accept a child’s gender expression.

Yes, assessment and treatment in lieu of "more modern approaches', is exactly what the RANZCP, France, Sweden, Finland and Norway (and I feel like I'm missing a couple) are all calling for. Therapy and gender exploration over 'watchful waiting' and definitely over 'informed consent / affirmation' - where kids are often medicalized after one visit.

 

[Seymour Flops]

No, it doesn't. Your assumption that promotion is at the heart of the increase is not supported by any evidence you've presented and so remains nothing more than a baseless claim.

Why do you think there has been such an increase?

I'm not at all embarrassed by you sharing your literal fantasies of a 14 year olds girl's sexuality and genitalia. I have no control over how people like you react when they see adolescent children talking about their emotional suffering.

You posted her. Why?

She's trans, it's kind of relevant to the conversation or does the Right wing never think to include the people they're legislating about in the conversation about the legislation?

That just a word.

"Trans" meaning what, exactly? How do you distinguish between a trans girl and a girl?

Also, you keep dodging questions, a sure sign of not being able to defend your own position. I know that questions trigger Democrats. Why did she show signs, instead of talking? Why not fill our hearts with her own words in her own voice.

You didn't read any of the information in that link did you? Let me quote for you the 3rd paragraph down on the page you yourself linked to.

I already read it.

It is important to note that gender identity is different from gender expression. Whereas gender identity refers to one’s psychological sense of their gender, gender expression refers to the way in which one presents to the world in a gendered way. For example, in much of the U.S., wearing a dress is considered a “feminine” gender expression, and wearing a tuxedo is considered a “masculine” gender expression. Such expectations are culturally defined and vary across time and culture. One’s gender expression does not necessarily align with their gender identity. Diverse gender expressions, much like diverse gender identities, are not indications of a mental disorder.

That's right, so they should not be treated with medicine and surgery. Those are for people with disorders.

You dont even know how to read a link properly and not even and Sweden or Finland go that far they are just reserving that sort of care for the most extreme of cases.

You mean I want to help victims of child rape? Yes. Of course I do. What kind of monster wouldnt?

So you must be strongly opposed to allowing biological boys into girls restrooms.

 

[Seymour Flops]

Curried Goats transgirl wouldn't talk in her video, for reasons all of us understand, though some may pretend not to. Here is a female talking out loud about how the transgenderization movement has affected her life:

University of Kentucky Swimmer Riley Gaines blasts the NCAA #activism

www.youtube.com

 

[Curried Goats]

I simply wonder if you can see your hypocrisy.

You never read the actual studies of the detransition rates you quote showing 1%, etc. You almost certainly had no idea of the context, such as how they were defining "regret" or "detransition" or how they made that determination until I just informed you a little bit ago. You just heard the number and liked them.

This is of course a lie. I'm more than happy to provide links to those and discuss them and in fact I did earlier in this thread when I pointed out testimonials from detransitioned women who said they were butch lesbians who were misdiagnosed as trans men. My question then as it is now because it went unanswered is how do GOP bans on discussing homosexuality and gender non conformity in schools help this situation?

You refuse to accept a study showing a higher rate of detransition - even though I provided the exact limitation. However, you were happy to accept, without that needed context, studies showing low rates.

I don't know what study you are accusing me of not accepting. Was it perhaps one you didn't provide a link to?

I also wonder if you understand that you keep moving the goal posts.

Me: They apologized and paid Dr. Zucker

You: That means nothing. they only paid him and apologized because they couldn't confirm he called a kid a name.

Me: No, they apologized for multiple errors, including criticism of his clinical practices.

I'm not moving any goal posts. This is what debate is. I don't see anywhere they apologized for the findings of two independent agencies who found his methods antiquated.

You: yeah... well... 'conversion therapy'.

Now, from the cite you provided:

The cite I provided also provided a quote of him admitting to trying to convince patients to accept their assigned birth gender. Why this in and of itself isn't considered conversion therapy is because he didn't strap them to a chair and make them watch straight porn. He only tried to influence them through dialog.

Yes, assessment and treatment in lieu of "more modern approaches', is exactly what the RANZCP, France, Sweden, Finland and Norway (and I feel like I'm missing a couple) are all calling for. Therapy and gender exploration over 'watchful waiting' and definitely over 'informed consent / affirmation' - where kids are often medicalized after one visit.

Rob, did you happen to read the part that came after watchful waiting? It continues... as well as educating and supporting parents to accept their child's gender expression.

That's the exact opposite of what Zucker was doing and why his methods today are considered unethical.

 

[Curried Goats]

Why do you think there has been such an increase?

I don't know and I don't care to speculate because it would be nothing but a work of fanfiction. I leave the fantasy writing up to you.

You posted her. Why?

I already told you, the experiences and perspectives of trans teens are relevant to the conversation. Why are you afraid to hear from people who's experiences and rights you are debating?

That just a word.

"Trans" meaning what, exactly? How do you distinguish between a trans girl and a girl?

I don't know what you're asking. Do you mean scientifically or just observationally because there are trans girls who you couldn't distinguish just from looking at them. If you don't know the scientific definition of a trans woman then why are even in this debate?

Also, you keep dodging questions, a sure sign of not being able to defend your own position. I know that questions trigger Democrats. Why did she show signs, instead of talking? Why not fill our hearts with her own words in her own voice.

That question doesn't trigger me at all. I'm not even sure what the question is about. I have no idea why she chose to use flash cards but I'm sure you have a hilarious fanfiction conspiracy to explain it. I just hope this one doesn't involve pensises and sex but frankly those fantasies of yours make me uncomfortable.

I already read it.

If you read the part where it said GD is not a mental disorder then why did you falsely label it a mental disorder?

That's right, so they should not be treated with medicine and surgery. Those are for people with disorders.

Medicine and surgery is only for people with disorders? Did you learn this when you got your medical degree at Trump University?

So you must be strongly opposed to allowing biological boys into girls restrooms.

Not if those biological boys are trans girls.

Curried Goats transgirl wouldn't talk in her video, for reasons all of us understand, though some may pretend not to.

Nope, I still dont understand but Im waiting around with popcorn and a tissue box for my tears of laughter when you explain it to me.

Here is a female talking out loud about how the transgenderization movement has affected her life:

University of Kentucky Swimmer Riley Gaines blasts the NCAA #activism

www.youtube.com

Ok. She didn't get a trophy for her tie. If the story is how she says it that's a fucked up decision by the race officials both in denying that young women her moment of victory and for using Lia Thompson as a prop. I'm not sure how this is a stain on the trans movement though. Seems like it's the NCAA that fucked up.

 

[Seymour Flops]

I don't know and I don't care to speculate because it would be nothing but a work of fanfiction. I leave the fantasy writing up to you.

I get that. It's important when you're a Democrat to never analyze anything. Just accept what they tell you like a good little follower.

I already told you, the experiences and perspectives of trans teens are relevant to the conversation. Why are you afraid to hear from people who's experiences and rights you are debating?

Again, we didnt' hear anything from her. She showed some signs that some adult made for her to show. She didn't talk because she is in reality a fourteen year old boy, not a fourteen year old girl and would sound like a boy if she spoke. That you cannot admit that simple fact tells me that you have no confidence in your position.

I'm happy to read opinions from the adults that are putting her through the transgenderization. But being willing to read them is not the same as being willing to swallow those opinions whole as if they are fact. I analyze those particular opinions thusly:

They are self-congragulatory musing by the adults who want to normalize their interest in young boys who look like young girls.

To be fair, there really is no objective standard to say that their (and your) desire for young boys to look like young girls is not "normal." What is "normal" when it comes to sex? People like what they like, and don't like what they don't like. I don't care what people like and what people do.

Except . . .

There has been a universal taboo for thousands of year against getting children involved in adult sexual fantasies and practices. Some cultures have igored that taboo, and even taken it officially out of the category of taboo. That is the direction that the transgenderization of children movement is trying to take the U.S. and they are furious that people are trying to stop them.

I don't know what you're asking. Do you mean scientifically or just observationally because there are trans girls who you couldn't distinguish just from looking at them. If you don't know the scientific definition of a trans woman then why are even in this debate?

Nobody that supports the transgenderization movement can define what a woman is, so how the heck can they define what a transwoman is?

Here's some examples of your fellow transgenderization fans:



Maybe you can do better and tell us

1) What is a woman?

2) What is a transwoman?

3) If I am a "man" whatever that is, who was identified by my doctor as male when I was born, can I now be a transman merely by saying that I am a transman?

That question doesn't trigger me at all. I'm not even sure what the question is about. I have no idea why she chose to use flash cards but I'm sure you have a hilarious fanfiction conspiracy to explain it. I just hope this one doesn't involve pensises and sex but frankly those fantasies of yours make me uncomfortable.

You are clearly very comfortable with the idea of young boys being feminized. You posted a video of it after all.

If you read the part where it said GD is not a mental disorder then why did you falsely label it a mental disorder?

Gender Dysphroia has been listed as a mental disorder in the DSM for decades across multiple editions including the most current. I haven't stopped calling it a mental disorder, because I haven't seen the scientific justification for no longer calling it a mental disorder.

What is that justification?

Medicine and surgery is only for people with disorders? Did you learn this when you got your medical degree at Trump University?

Oh, we do surgery and give medication to healthy people now?

Not if those biological boys are trans girls.

Even though those transgirls have committed rapes on children?

Nope, I still dont understand but Im waiting around with popcorn and a tissue box for my tears of laughter when you explain it to me.

So you cackle when you're uncomfortable like Kamala?

Ok. She didn't get a trophy for her tie. If the story is how she says it that's a fucked up decision by the race officials both in denying that young women her moment of victory and for using Lia Thompson as a prop. I'm not sure how this is a stain on the trans movement though. Seems like it's the NCAA that fucked up.

Decent point.

The NCAA fucked up trying to please the transgenderization movement. Lesson to be learned is this: Don't try to please the transgenderization movement. They are sick, irrational, and mean, and their tantrums should be ignored.

 

[HeyNorm]

I get that. It's important when you're a Democrat to never analyze anything. Just accept what they tell you like a good little follower.

Again, we didnt' hear anything from her. She showed some signs that some adult made for her to show. She didn't talk because she is in reality a fourteen year old boy, not a fourteen year old girl and would sound like a boy if she spoke. That you cannot admit that simple fact tells me that you have no confidence in your position.

Nobody that supports the transgenderization movement can define what a woman is, so how the heck can they define what a transwoman is?

Here's some examples of your fellow transgenderization fans:



Maybe you can do better and tell us

1) What is a woman?

2) What is a transwoman?

3) If I am a "man" whatever that is, who was identified by my doctor as male when I was born, can I now be a transman merely by saying that I am a transman?

You are clearly very comfortable with the idea of young boys being feminized. You posted a video of it after all.

Gender Dysphroia has been listed as a mental disorder in the DSM for decades across multiple editions including the most current. I haven't stopped calling it a mental disorder, because I haven't seen the scientific justification for no longer calling it a mental disorder.

What is that justification?

Oh, we do surgery and give medication to healthy people now?

Even though those transgirls have committed rapes on children?

So you cackle when you're uncomfortable like Kamala?

Decent point.

The NACC fucked up trying to please the transgenderization movement. Lesson to be learned is this: Don't try to please the transgenderization movement. They are sick and mean, and their tantrums should be ignored.

Don’t mess with the LBGTQ fool.

The most powerful force in the galaxy!

 

[Curried Goats]

I get that. It's important when you're a Democrat to never analyze anything. Just accept what they tell you like a good little follower.

You're not doing analysis, you're doing conspiracy and fanfiction.

Again, we didnt' hear anything from her.

Its a figure of speech. She shared her story of depression and loneliness and finding an accepting community that allows her to be herself.

She showed some signs that some adult made for her to show.

Do you have any evidence of that?

She didn't talk because she is in reality a fourteen year old boy, not a fourteen year old girl and would sound like a boy if she spoke.

All you're doing is revealing what lies within your own imagination. I have no idea why she chose not to speak. Speculation is silly. Until it's supported by evidence, which you have none of, it remains nothing more than your imagination, literally, and I'm not quite sure why you continue to think your fantasies make for compelling arguments. They do not.

That you cannot admit that simple fact tells me that you have no confidence in your position.

You don't seem to know the difference between fiction and non fiction.

Nobody that supports the transgenderization movement can define what a woman is, so how the heck can they define what a transwoman is?

Here's some examples of your fellow transgenderization fans:



Maybe you can do better and tell us

1) What is a woman?

2) What is a transwoman?

3) If I am a "man" whatever that is, who was identified by my doctor as male when I was born, can I now be a transman merely by saying that I am a transman?

Going by that video it doesn't seem you're capable of an intellectually honest answers and conversation.

What a woman is is a social construct. It's a mutable concept. I think maybe you're confusing the question what is a woman with what is a biological female.

You are clearly very comfortable with the idea of young boys being feminized. You posted a video of it after all.

I'm comfortable with people being allowed to express themselves in whatever manner they wish so long as they aren't harming anyone.

Gender Dysphroia has been listed as a mental disorder in the DSM for decades across multiple editions including the most current.

Wrong. It was listed as such in previous editions but in the latest update it is not and the paragraph I quoted previously proves that fact. I know you're confused by what a fact is but it is something that can be proven with evidence, like the manual you linked to specifically saying diverse gender expressions and identities aren't signs of mental disorder. I can post it again for you if you like.

I haven't stopped calling it a mental disorder, because I haven't seen the scientific justification for no longer calling it a mental disorder.

Who cares what you call it or what you've seen evidence for?

What is that justification?

Because trans people dont live inherently disordered lives. They're able to hold down jobs, maintain relationships, and maintain themselves.

Oh, we do surgery and give medication to healthy people now?

Are the only two options suffering from a disorder or healthy?

Even though those transgirls have committed rapes on children?

And men have committed rapes against other men in restrooms, should we ban all men from male restrooms too or maybe arrest and incarcerate that rapist and then move on with our lives?

So you cackle when you're uncomfortable like Kamala?

I'm not made uncomfortable by your displays of inanity and bigotry.

Decent point.

The NACC fucked up trying to please the transgenderization movement. Lesson to be learned is this: Don't try to please the transgenderization movement. They are sick and mean, and their tantrums should be ignored.

Go luck getting that message out being the obvious bigot that you are. There is a reason your culture is headed towards extinction.