Do We Need Religion?

[sidneyworld]

.... you know, you might not need religion, JB, but you certainly need God. I'll see what I can do.

am

 

[JBeukema]

.... you know, you might not need religion, JB, but you certainly need God.

And which god might that be? The one that waited til 4000 BC t reveal itself as a shortened rehashing of an older two gods, split into the gods of two large sects, the4n got rehashed again when the gentiles wanted in on the deal?

 

[Diuretic]

You know there's a group of people in Greece who are trying to workship the pre-Christian gods and the Greek government is giving them a hard time for it. I suspect the powerful Orthodox Church is behind the oppression. Damnit I hate monopolies!

 

[JBeukema]

Where are we to bury all of our dead gods?

 

[eagleseven]

You know there's a group of people in Greece who are trying to workship the pre-Christian gods and the Greek government is giving them a hard time for it. I suspect the powerful Orthodox Church is behind the oppression. Damnit I hate monopolies!

I'll worship Dionysus!

 

[Diuretic]

I'd say at sea but it's had a heck of a hammering so we'll have to fire them into space and dump them somewhere - Saturn has a nice ring to it.

 

[JBeukema]

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G87Pd7PKOZc]YouTube - Our god the drugs - Deathstars[/ame]

 

[sidneyworld]

.... you know, you might not need religion, JB, but you certainly need God.

And which god might that be? The one that waited til 4000 BC t reveal itself as a shortened rehashing of an older two gods, split into the gods of two large sects, the4n got rehashed again when the gentiles wanted in on the deal?

The real one. Do you know who that is?

Anne Marie

 

[JBeukema]

Of course I know who I am

 

[sidneyworld]

Of course I know who I am

Oh, yeah, I forgot, oh Great One! At least you can handle yourself. Well in some form or another.

Take a nice walk in a park today, JB. Considering you are the master of your own universe, you might want to see what's been lurking outside that door.

Anne Marie

 

[JBeukema]

I know what's behind that door: it's my pet chucacabra. I keep forgetting to feed it.

 

[sidneyworld]

I know what's behind that door: it's my pet chucacabra. I keep forgetting to feed it.

Yikes!

 

[sidneyworld]

You know there's a group of people in Greece who are trying to workship the pre-Christian gods and the Greek government is giving them a hard time for it. I suspect the powerful Orthodox Church is behind the oppression. Damnit I hate monopolies!

Folks who resort to worshiping images seem to also have this notion that personal sacrifice is not part of the concept. They are simply self-ingraciating themselves for their own gain. This is not a practice of any genuine faith, yet neither is pain.

Many view religion as a practice of unreasonable regiment, and perpetual sacrifice and many religions do emphasize this. Perpetual pain and suffering. What they don't do is emphasize spiritual enlightenment which has nothing to do with pain and suffering. It has everything to do with unconditional love and compassion. You can't get that from worshiping a rock or a statue. You get that from deep meditation. From self-reflection and from taking time to understand that you are not the center of the universe, only your own perception of it. But there's more out there.

There have been programs by photojournalists that covered various forms of worship in China. Especially in the impovershed areas which stretch about 3/4 of the entire country. Those who have been introduced to Christianity have found their lives fulfilled beyond their imagination because they were given a window into genuine spirituality, not idol worship. They were given at the very least a perspective by which has offered them a type of hope and resolution that their existence is not exclusive to their surroundings, to their hardship. That they can rise above the destruction and discover another dimension to their lives. And it has had a profound impact on many microsocieties where otherwise oppressive beliefs and tyranny has overtaken their freedom.

And this has been evident throughout the world, especially third world accounts by missionaries and personal testimonies of the transformation of the lives of these people who have suffered the unimaginable horror of their own genocide.

Nothing has come close to making a positive impact on a global scale as has Christianity. And I truly believe that those who have made a career out of helping other people, no matter whether they actually practice any faith or religion are actually more Christianlike than many self-proclaimed Christians, especially in this society. Going to Church does not guarantee salvation. Nor does idol worship.

But the real objective here, as human beings, is to live a fulfilled life. The key in doing that does not lie in technology or personal financial success. It lies in the way you use your good fortune, your intelligence and your talents to make a positive impact on someone elses' life. Even if it's just one person.

Anne Marie

 

[KittenKoder]

You know there's a group of people in Greece who are trying to workship the pre-Christian gods and the Greek government is giving them a hard time for it. I suspect the powerful Orthodox Church is behind the oppression. Damnit I hate monopolies!

Folks who resort to worshiping images seem to also have this notion that personal sacrifice is not part of the concept. They are simply self-ingraciating themselves for their own gain. This is not a practice of any genuine faith, yet neither is pain.

Many view religion as a practice of unreasonable regiment, and perpetual sacrifice and many religions do emphasize this. Perpetual pain and suffering. What they don't do is emphasize spiritual enlightenment which has nothing to do with pain and suffering. It has everything to do with unconditional love and compassion. You can't get that from worshiping a rock or a statue. You get that from deep meditation. From self-reflection and from taking time to understand that you are not the center of the universe, only your own perception of it. But there's more out there.

There have been programs by photojournalists that covered various forms of worship in China. Especially in the impovershed areas which stretch about 3/4 of the entire country. Those who have been introduced to Christianity have found their lives fulfilled beyond their imagination because they were given a window into genuine spirituality, not idol worship. They were given at the very least a perspective by which has offered them a type of hope and resolution that their existence is not exclusive to their surroundings, to their hardship. That they can rise above the destruction and discover another dimension to their lives. And it has had a profound impact on many microsocieties where otherwise oppressive beliefs and tyranny has overtaken their freedom.

And this has been evident throughout the world, especially third world accounts by missionaries and personal testimonies of the transformation of the lives of these people who have suffered the unimaginable horror of their own genocide.

Nothing has come close to making a positive impact on a global scale as has Christianity. And I truly believe that those who have made a career out of helping other people, no matter whether they actually practice any faith or religion are actually more Christianlike than many self-proclaimed Christians, especially in this society. Going to Church does not guarantee salvation. Nor does idol worship.

But the real objective here, as human beings, is to live a fulfilled life. The key in doing that does not lie in technology or personal financial success. It lies in the way you use your good fortune, your intelligence and your talents to make a positive impact on someone elses' life. Even if it's just one person.

Anne Marie

This is what annoys me about the organized religion zealots ... you are just dead wrong. The idea of personal sacrifice was actually formed by ancient religions, and was extremely respected and practiced in Japan long before christianity or any other organized religion appeared. You really need to learn more about other religions before you talk about them, and not just from "approved" sources. Try anthropology and archeology, go back about 10,000 years.

 

[sidneyworld]

You know there's a group of people in Greece who are trying to workship the pre-Christian gods and the Greek government is giving them a hard time for it. I suspect the powerful Orthodox Church is behind the oppression. Damnit I hate monopolies!

Folks who resort to worshiping images seem to also have this notion that personal sacrifice is not part of the concept. They are simply self-ingraciating themselves for their own gain. This is not a practice of any genuine faith, yet neither is pain.

Many view religion as a practice of unreasonable regiment, and perpetual sacrifice and many religions do emphasize this. Perpetual pain and suffering. What they don't do is emphasize spiritual enlightenment which has nothing to do with pain and suffering. It has everything to do with unconditional love and compassion. You can't get that from worshiping a rock or a statue. You get that from deep meditation. From self-reflection and from taking time to understand that you are not the center of the universe, only your own perception of it. But there's more out there.

There have been programs by photojournalists that covered various forms of worship in China. Especially in the impovershed areas which stretch about 3/4 of the entire country. Those who have been introduced to Christianity have found their lives fulfilled beyond their imagination because they were given a window into genuine spirituality, not idol worship. They were given at the very least a perspective by which has offered them a type of hope and resolution that their existence is not exclusive to their surroundings, to their hardship. That they can rise above the destruction and discover another dimension to their lives. And it has had a profound impact on many microsocieties where otherwise oppressive beliefs and tyranny has overtaken their freedom.

And this has been evident throughout the world, especially third world accounts by missionaries and personal testimonies of the transformation of the lives of these people who have suffered the unimaginable horror of their own genocide.

Nothing has come close to making a positive impact on a global scale as has Christianity. And I truly believe that those who have made a career out of helping other people, no matter whether they actually practice any faith or religion are actually more Christianlike than many self-proclaimed Christians, especially in this society. Going to Church does not guarantee salvation. Nor does idol worship.

But the real objective here, as human beings, is to live a fulfilled life. The key in doing that does not lie in technology or personal financial success. It lies in the way you use your good fortune, your intelligence and your talents to make a positive impact on someone elses' life. Even if it's just one person.

Anne Marie

This is what annoys me about the organized religion zealots ... you are just dead wrong. The idea of personal sacrifice was actually formed by ancient religions, and was extremely respected and practiced in Japan long before christianity or any other organized religion appeared. You really need to learn more about other religions before you talk about them, and not just from "approved" sources. Try anthropology and archeology, go back about 10,000 years.

You are agreeing with me here. Before you suggest a source, reread what I wrote. The idea of personal sacrifice does NOT fit into the framework of Genuine Christianity because compassion is not an element of sacrifice. It is an exercise of love.

Ancient civilizations felt that the only way to please the Gods was to give something physical of themselves, or for many civilizations, human sacrifice, that being someone else's body, not theirs. Human beings conjured this notion that the ultimate sacrifice is death, but not their death. That is the colossal contradiction.

Persecuted Christians suffered greatly because of their belief in God, but they themselves had nothing to do with the human sacrifice of others. Their sacrifice was actually their undying belief in God's love at the expense of their death which was not by their hand.

Pagan worshipers believed that anyone who did not believe in their gods would have to be put to death. The Crusades started as a viable means to spread Christianity which turned into a powerful means to spread tyranny. It's Christianity gone bad, where greed and the thirst for rule became the main objective. There are many people in contemporary society who have been able to accomplish this using God's name as vehicle of justification.

Anne Marie

 

[Diuretic]

Religion, like its human practitioners, evolves. Have you noticed how religions (yes I'm generalising but there are so many religions I have to) eventually catch up with the society in which they're embedded? That's to ensure continuing relevance.

In a theocracy the religionists are in charge, usually in a pact with secular forces in a sort of mutual back-scratching exercise. When people begin to get secular enlightenment they tend to be more sceptical about the claims of religion. Religionists then shift their position to accommodate the new scepticism. But it seems that in general there has been a move forwards.

Now I know I can be accused of seeing this wrong. My personal values happen to reflect the culture I was born into where Judeo-Christian social values were the bedrock.

I learned about human sacrifice in earlier religions as a kid and was horrified that people could do that in the name of religion. I understood it a little more as an adult. Today I can't think of too many religions where human sacrifice is approved (except the contemporary rituals in the Catholic Church which echo earlier sacrificial rituals).

Not sacrificing humans is a good thing, my value system says that, but I think I can prove it's a good thing in a more objective manner than pointing to Judeo-Christian values. So, perhaps I can defend myself against an allegation that I'm taking a modern view of ancient practices and condemning them out of hand based on contemporary values.

Anyway, my point is that religions evolve with the societies in which they are found, if they don't evolve then they're left behind and will, like anything which isn't nourished, die out.

 

[sidneyworld]

Religion, like its human practitioners, evolves. Have you noticed how religions (yes I'm generalising but there are so many religions I have to) eventually catch up with the society in which they're embedded? That's to ensure continuing relevance.

In a theocracy the religionists are in charge, usually in a pact with secular forces in a sort of mutual back-scratching exercise. When people begin to get secular enlightenment they tend to be more sceptical about the claims of religion. Religionists then shift their position to accommodate the new scepticism. But it seems that in general there has been a move forwards.

Now I know I can be accused of seeing this wrong. My personal values happen to reflect the culture I was born into where Judeo-Christian social values were the bedrock.

I learned about human sacrifice in earlier religions as a kid and was horrified that people could do that in the name of religion. I understood it a little more as an adult. Today I can't think of too many religions where human sacrifice is approved (except the contemporary rituals in the Catholic Church which echo earlier sacrificial rituals).

Not sacrificing humans is a good thing, my value system says that, but I think I can prove it's a good thing in a more objective manner than pointing to Judeo-Christian values. So, perhaps I can defend myself against an allegation that I'm taking a modern view of ancient practices and condemning them out of hand based on contemporary values.

Anyway, my point is that religions evolve with the societies in which they are found, if they don't evolve then they're left behind and will, like anything which isn't nourished, die out.

Well done, Diuretic. Good post. I have to add though, that faith has nothing to do with religion. It is simply not predicated on man-made law. Don't know if you agree with that, but I stand by this as I live and breath for as long as I can remember.

Anne Marie

 

[Diuretic]

Faith as in belief in God? No, it doesn't require a religion, but it does require acculturation.

 

[sidneyworld]

Faith as in belief in God? No, it doesn't require a religion, but it does require acculturation.

Acculturation is not unlike indoctrination. And it has the same succession of results from one culture to many cultures as it branches out. However "faith" and wisdom of divine spiritualism does not necessarily require acculturation. Only the practice of religion that carry a cache of man made obsticles in attempting to gain that wisdom.

Anne Marie

 

[Diuretic]

Faith as in belief in God? No, it doesn't require a religion, but it does require acculturation.

Acculturation is not unlike indoctrination. And it has the same succession of results from one culture to many cultures as it branches out. However "faith" and wisdom of divine spiritualism does not necessarily require acculturation. Only the practice of religion that carry a cache of man made obsticles in attempting to gain that wisdom.

Anne Marie

Humans possess a brain capable of very high abstract forms of thought. The ability to wonder, to speculate, to imagine are all products of that brain. Another product of that brain is the ability to imagine a creator of everything a human can perceive. Acculteration harnesses that mental ability by channelling it into the religious beliefs (assuming they exist) of the primary socialisation agents of the individual when he or she is born, the parents. Left alone, the individual might create their own personal mythology but that's not usually the case.