Do We Have an Economy for the Wealthy?

[sparky]

College educated people generally make more money than non-college educated people.

wrong.....

The group is college educated whites, meaning those with a degree

do the math, and you'll find they owe the most

IE> make XXX a year, owe XX , means you,re worth X

Add an outrageous sense of entitlement to that, and it's a recipe for failure

This structure has created massive wealth disparities, and they'll only continue to increase and feed on themselves. So we're nearing a point at which we're going to need to make some decisions, before we see another French Revolution here

bastille day redux Mac?


trust me that many of the great unwashed have figured this out long ago, we live on the edge of the 'system' , not integral to it
~S~

 

[rampart]

Having an economy that favors wealthy people helps everyone... rich and poor...

that might explain the french revolution : happy peasants expressing gratitude for the mississippi bubble and glad that their aristocrats had plenty of cake.

 

[1srelluc]

I suspect they are the same group that live off their credit cards and just pay the minimum on their CC debt.

 

[Grumblenuts]

wrong.....

do the math, and you'll find they owe the most

IE> make XXX a year, owe XX , means you,re worth X

Add an outrageous sense of entitlement to that, and it's a recipe for failure

"they" being "The group is college educated whites, meaning those with a degree"

"wrong....."

Americans owe $986 billion on credit cards, surpassing the pre-pandemic high of $927 billion. We owe $11.92 trillion on mortgages, $1.55 trillion on vehicle loans and $1.60 trillion for student loans.

"IE>" our roughly equal amounts of credit card, vehicle, and student loan debt remain dwarfed by our mortgage debt.

the average non-mortgage per capita debt for each group:

• 18-29-year-olds: $69 billion total, $12,871 average
• 30-39-year-olds: $1.17 trillion, $26,532 average
• 40-49-year-olds: $1.13 trillion $27,838 average
• 50-59-year-olds: $98 billion, $23,719 average
• 60-69-year-olds: $64 billion, $16,661 average
• 70 and older: $36 billion $9,827 average

"IE>" Beyond college 30 to 60 year-olds owe the most. They enjoy that "outrageous sense of entitlement" or perhaps they've been conditioned to think a save first, then buy attitude is just for risk-averse dweebs and losers. Hey, why not? If it all worked out for Jeff Bezos, Elon Musk, and Bill Gates..

 

[Grumblenuts]

"conditioned" by the wealthy.

 

[initforme]

There are some who believe in
1). Getting rid of employee healthcare
2) Getting rid of unions
3). Getting rid of Medicare
4). Overtime pay is wrong

These and a few others would result in a purely pluttocratic form of capitalism and the death of the nation.

 

[Seymour Flops]

Sounds like it's an economy for college educated people.

It's a "skillsocracy" as opposed to a meritocracy.

I thought this poll was an interesting observation and it's not the first time I've seen it. Look at the people who approve of Biden's job as president. One, 81% of Democrats which is no surprise since it's his party. 55% of blacks which, again, no surprise given how heavily Democratic they are as a group. The one that stands out is 53% of white college. Every other group has a negative view of his performance, especially men and whites without a college degree, two groups who tend to make up more blue-collar jobs.

So why is it that college educated whites see it differently from everyone else? College educated people generally make more money than non-college educated people. I have an MBA and my wife and I, while not rich, fall into the upper middle-class income category and I can honestly say that despite inflation we are not experiencing hardships in our household. We haven't had to make any sacrifices. We still take trips and go out to eat at nice restaurants here and there. In fact, we are headed to Europe again for two weeks next month. Strictly from the microcosm of my household we're doing well, but we were doing well before too and I gather this is what a lot of people in the college educated whites group are also experiencing. There is a disconnect between that group and what everyone else is apparently dealing with.

So that begs the question, is this an economy for the wealthy?

Any economy will evolve or devolve into an economy for the wealthy. The difference between a fully communist economy and a fully free economy or the infinite number of in-between economic systems is how the wealthy become wealthy.

In a fully free economy, meaning a strong government that makes sure that force is never a part of any economic transaction, those who are skilled at managing risk, and organizing production will become wealthy. They will hire the most skilled people to perform the tasked needed for production and those skilled will be the upper middle class. Those with moderate skills will make up the bulk of workers from mid-level managers to workers with just enough snap to be trained on the job. Those with no skills will be menial laborers, which will always be needed.

In a government-controlled system, the people running government, and those with connections to people running government will be the wealthy.

That's a great freakin' question. I'm not even sure I'll be able to make sense here, but what the hell:

We have an economy that allows for a rapid momentum that creates the wealthy. If money is just pissed away (like, say, what we see a lot of lottery winners do) it doesn't create wealth. But if leveraged properly, capital can feed on itself incredibly quickly. I think that's less a function of education level and more a function of instinct and opportunity. Some people have it, some people don't.

Our current tax structure plays a huge role in that. Tax rates are low, capital gains tax rates are low. And maybe most importantly, re-investment rules (generally ZERO taxes on capital gains if they're rolled properly) just throw the door wide open to exponential wealth growth. So utililzing leverage and tax law gives you a significant advantage in this economic "system" of ours.

Very good analysis.

This structure has created massive wealth disparities, and they'll only continue to increase and feed on themselves. So we're nearing a point at which we're going to need to make some decisions, before we see another French Revolution here. We already have a large group of people who feel they've been cheated and victimized, and are acting out over it. Which opens up ANOTHER topic....

Glad to see you write that. Progressives have been making the point that imbalances in wealth could lead to violence by the people on the wrong end of the see-saw. I've never heard anyone accuse progressives of inciting violence or wanting violence for saying those things.

Poor people have no cushion to take the Biden hit.

Exactly. I don't see how they are making it. The working poor - those with both jobs and needs-based benefits - are doomed to never advance, never stop working, and never wean from the government teat if this keeps up another five years.

You may still be doing well, but you are not doing as well as before Biden. Your headroom has shrunk. You just have enough financial cushion to absorb the loss. So far.

That is our situation, exactly. We are two teachers with about 8 years left to retirement. We budget our money tightly, but we include vacations, weekenders, hobbies, and restaurants in the budget, so we are not suffering.

What is left after monthly and weekly expenses goes one of two places: Investment into our 403b, which is a regular amount, and our savings/emergency fund which is a flexible amount, depending on whether we have worked detention for the overtime, or summer school.

About a year ago, we had to adjust our monthly grocery money and our weekly expenses money upward. Gasoline had a lot to do with that, but also the higher costs of basic food. We also had to add to our planned light bill. Where did that come from?

From the savings/emergency fund contributions. A year after that adjustment, we are again starting to go through our weekly money in less than a week, so we will have to bump that up again. So our savings will get closer to zero. Meanwhile our 403b contribution is the same as five years ago, when we should be increasing it to keep up with inflation.

People with no cushion are probably running out of money before running out of month on a regular basis. They will feel the pain immediately rather than lamenting that retirement will not be as comfortable as they thought. Those are the people who will be looking for a way to get the economy back to where it was five years ago.

 

[Rambunctious]

that might explain the french revolution : happy peasants expressing gratitude for the mississippi bubble and glad that their aristocrats had plenty of cake.

We don't have peasants in America... look up "Peasants" and see the difference between them and our lower classes....

 

[Grumblenuts]

We don't have peasants in America... look up "Peasants" and see the difference between them and our lower classes....

Sure, "the difference between peasants and America's lower classes" -- first hit:

The two political parties are just two arms of the business party; the press and media are its creatures, too. There was more left-wing analysis in a single issue of Mad Magazine in the mid-1950s than in the combined output of all left-wing publications in this country in 1993.

Our society refuses to disgorge engrossers. The central problem of our time was a central one for medieval theologians: how to control the lust for self-enrichment. From the Middle Ages to the Reformation, the unpardonable sin was of the speculator or middleman who snatched private gain by the exploitation of public necessities. The term for such people was engrosser-- literally, one who buys up a market wholesale to monopolize higher prices. This crime was considered grounds for excommunication by the Catholic Church, and the remedy for such activity was “disgorgement.” It was also a civil crime for which the third repeat offense was “pillory and ruin.” The first laws against engrossment were passed around 1025 and the last were not repealed until 1844.


For almost 800 years, the economic behavior that creates the problems that environmentalists now so politely oppose were generally considered illegal and, even more important, sinful. But now religious institutions that once monitored engrossers have disappeared as a force for social equity, and the two-party system has devolved into a single Chamber of Commerce party. While environmentalists thinly fill the vacuum, serious and organized opposition to engrossers has mysteriously disappeared without public notice.

Today we seem to be on our way back to a lord-peasant social structure, which would be more tolerable if the upper classes followed the ground rules for such societies.

-- the late, great Alexander Cockburn

 

[Harpy Eagle]

You may still be doing well, but you are not doing as well as before Biden. Your headroom has shrunk. You just have enough financial cushion to absorb the loss. So far. If you can't see that, your college owes you a refund.

This is only the case if one's income has not gone up during this time.

The raises the wife and I have both gotten since 2000 have more than made up for any rise of cost in inflation.

We moved to a brand new but smaller home so even with the rise in energy cost our power bill is still half of what it was this time last year and our per month payment is lower as well.

 

[Harpy Eagle]

So that begs the question, is this an economy for the wealthy?

My wife and I were just talking about this yesterday due to this poll. While we are not what most would call wealthy, we are well enough off that we are indeed insulated from all that has been going on. It is important for us to recognize this.

 

[The Sage of Main Street]

Having an economy that favors wealthy people helps everyone... rich and poor...

You're in a Nation That Models Its Economy on Urination

 

[Dadoalex]

I thought this poll was an interesting observation and it's not the first time I've seen it. Look at the people who approve of Biden's job as president. One, 81% of Democrats which is no surprise since it's his party. 55% of blacks which, again, no surprise given how heavily Democratic they are as a group. The one that stands out is 53% of white college. Every other group has a negative view of his performance, especially men and whites without a college degree, two groups who tend to make up more blue-collar jobs.

So why is it that college educated whites see it differently from everyone else? College educated people generally make more money than non-college educated people. I have an MBA and my wife and I, while not rich, fall into the upper middle-class income category and I can honestly say that despite inflation we are not experiencing hardships in our household. We haven't had to make any sacrifices. We still take trips and go out to eat at nice restaurants here and there. In fact, we are headed to Europe again for two weeks next month. Strictly from the microcosm of my household we're doing well, but we were doing well before too and I gather this is what a lot of people in the college educated whites group are also experiencing. There is a disconnect between that group and what everyone else is apparently dealing with.

So that begs the question, is this an economy for the wealthy?

So you call out Democrats, Blacks, and College educated people as seeing the economy as better an blame it on their favoring Democrats.

Then you call out White men and White non-college educated as being "impacted" by the economy but fail to point out that this is the heart of MAGA.

Does someone have their bias showing?

Reminds me of the UAW worker screaming about what Biden HASN'T done for them.

Perception is reality and the economy could be at 100% employment with wages growing at record pace and MAGA would still see it as failure because they're not driven by reason but by anger and hate and there's never been a time when facts, logic, and reason have changed an angry mind.

 

[Dadoalex]

Having an economy that favors wealthy people helps everyone... rich and poor...

So I suppose then that slavery is the best economic model.

 

[Rambunctious]

So I suppose then that slavery is the best economic model.

That's quite a leap isn't it?... wow.... you guys are out there.... slaves never had a Minimum wage and healthcare....

 

[sparky]

People with no cushion are probably running out of money before running out of month on a regular basis. They will feel the pain immediately rather than lamenting that retirement will not be as comfortable as they thought. Those are the people who will be looking for a way to get the economy back to where it was five years ago.

My wife and I were just talking about this yesterday due to this poll. While we are not what most would call wealthy, we are well enough off that we are indeed insulated from all that has been going on. It is important for us to recognize this.

Both well spoken in this thread

and i would urge both to consider the point of view the 'great unwashed' (formerly middle class) now have ......

~S~

 

[sparky]

Anecdotally , i'm a bluecollar redneck

fwiw, we built this country , the roads you drive on, the houses you live in, the computers you'll opine on

we are something the 'wealthy' can't really live w/out, yet abuse every chance they get

when (and if) you get your head around this, you may see a few things more clearly , and realize why they pit each of us against each other

~S~

 

[Dadoalex]

That's quite a leap isn't it?... wow.... you guys are out there.... slaves never had a Minimum wage and healthcare....

Haven't you heard how much slave benefited from slavery.
It was on all the MAGA news.
AND
It cannot be argued that slavery benefited the wealthiest.

 

[DudleySmith]

I suspect they are the same group that live off their credit cards and just pay the minimum on their CC debt.

It's an 'economy' built on loan sharking and credit bubbles. The financial sector has taken over nearly every category of business, and loaded them all down with debt at highly inflationary prices. The fact is there are certain categories of 'Capitalism' that need to be regulated and strong anti-trust laws in place and enforced, along with laws against predatory pricing by chain stores, or you will up a octopus of bankers and swindlers running a centralized economy no different than a Marxist run shithole. The only difference will be in semantics and sophistry used to glorify it.

 

[DudleySmith]

Anecdotally , i'm a bluecollar redneck

fwiw, we built this country , the roads you drive on, the houses you live in, the computers you'll opine on

we are something the 'wealthy' can't really live w/out, yet abuse every chance they get

when (and if) you get your head around this, you may see a few things more clearly , and realize why they pit each of us against each other

~S~

It was small businesses and medium sized businesses that drove upward mobility and free enterprise and created a booming middle class, not monopoly and oligarchy. Having an economy run by Mao isn't any different than one run by a J.P. Morgan or Andrew Mellon. They both needed private armies to gun down those uppity proles and keep them working cheap.

It's hilarious how often the right wing shills snivel about The Deficit N Stuff' while never once expressing any concern about corporate debt or consumer debt as a problem. Hint: The latter is many times larger, and isn't backed by any real assets.

Consumer debt is over $17 trillion by itself, and not 'in the future', but right now. Corporate debt is even higher. And then there is the fantasy that the stock market will save us all, sucking trillions away from investing in real business creation and into gambling and speculation on an ever shrinking number of giant companies.

And, globally it is worse:

https://www.imf.org/-/media/Files/Conferences/2022/12/2022-12-12-global-debt-monitor.ashx