Zone1 Do I Understand These Biblical Stories Correctly?

[surada]

He was born of a 'virgin' due to a poor translation of the Hebrew Bible into Greek. The Hebrew word in Isiaih (?) was 'young girl' which was translated into Greek with a word that meant either 'young girl' or 'virgin'. The early Christians used the Greek translation and settled on the 'virgin' meaning when they wanted to show that Jesus fulfilled the Hebrew prophesies.

Does Isaiah 7:14 Refer to a Virgin Birth? - Aish.com

aish.com

Further, the Torah does have a specific word for a virgin – betulah – which it consistently uses in reference to a woman’s virginity (e.g., Genesis 24:16, Exodus 22:15, Leviticus 21:14, and especially Deuteronomy 22:13-21) – and that is not the word used by Isaiah. Matthew 1:23 claims that Jesus’s immaculate conception was the fulfillment of Isaiah’s prophecy that a virgin shall give birth, but it is immediately clear that this is not what Isaiah had in mind.

 

[surada]

I know, but I was talking about the original sin of Adam.

Original sin must be the justification for the crucifixion. It's very primitive and goes against the verses about children not being responsible for the sins of their fathers.

This belief in original sin began to emerge in the 3rd century, but only became fully formed with the writings of Augustine of Hippo (354–430 AD), who was the first author to use the phrase "original sin" .

Influenced by Augustine, the councils of Carthage (411–418 AD) and Orange (529 AD) brought theological speculation about original sin into the official lexicon of the Church.

Psalm 51:5 ("I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me"), and in Paul's Epistle to the Romans, 5:12-21 ("Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned").

 

[Cougarbear]

The "Immaculate Conception" refers to the purity of Mary, not of the virgin birth of Jesus. That Mary was indeed a virgin is stated by herself, that she had 'never known a man'.

I see no difference. If Mary was a virgin, then Jesus would be born by a virgin.

 

[Mr Natural]

I see no difference. If Mary was a virgin, then Jesus would be born by a virgin.

How’s that possible?

 

[surada]

How’s that possible?

Some interpretations say a maid is a virgin until she gives birth.

Virginity is never stipulated as a requirement of the Israelite people before marriage, the only exception being that a priest can only marry a virgin according to Leviticus 21:13-14.

Also, in the Old Testament, whatever expectation that people had concerning being virgins was only applied to women, and then only within the context that a groom demands his wife be a virgin. Virginity before marriage was never considered a religious virtue in and of itself.

Furthermore, men of Old Testament times regularly engaged in polygamy or had concubines. These practices were commonly accepted and never explicitly condemned; so how is the Bible in any position to pontificate to us today concerning the now-common practice of premarital sex?

Also, there are a number of anecdotes of premarital sex, such as Abraham begetting Ishmael with his wife's slave, Hagar, and also Jacob begetting sons with his wives' slaves Bilhah and Zilpah. These anecdotes never state or imply that there was anything wrong with these actions.

 

[Cougarbear]

Cougarbear

Does Isaiah 7:14 Refer to a Virgin Birth? - Aish.com

aish.com

The Aish Rabbi Replies

Thank you for your important question. Yes, it is well-known that the actual word in that verse is “almah” – which throughout the Torah refers to a young woman without reference to her virginity, see for example Genesis 24:43, Exodus 2:8, and Song of Songs 1:3.

See especially Proverbs 30:19 which refers to “the way of a man with a young woman (almah)” where, as the commentators to Isaiah note, the intent is clearly for a non-virgin – as the verse uses this as an example of an act which leaves no trace. (See Rabbi Tovia Singer’s lecture on this here.)

Almah thus parallels the male version of that word, elem, which appears twice in the Torah having nothing to do with a young man’s marital status (I Samuel 17:56, 20:22).Further, the Torah does have a specific word for a virgin – betulah – which it consistently uses in reference to a woman’s virginity (e.g., Genesis 24:16, Exodus 22:15, Leviticus 21:14, and especially Deuteronomy 22:13-21) – and that is not the word used by Isaiah.

Matthew 1:23 claims that Jesus’s immaculate conception was the fulfillment of Isaiah’s prophecy that a virgin shall give birth, but it is immediately clear that this is not what Isaiah had in mind.

“The Hebrew word in Isaiah 7:14 is “almah,” and its inherent meaning is “young woman.” “Almah” can mean “virgin,” as young unmarried women in ancient Hebrew culture were assumed to be virgins. Again, though, the word does not necessarily imply virginity. “Almah” occurs seven times in the Hebrew Scriptures (Genesis 24:43; Exodus 2:8; Psalm 68:25; Proverbs 30:19; Song of Solomon 1:3; 6:8; Isaiah 7:14). None of these instances demands the meaning “virgin,” but neither do they deny the possible meaning of “virgin.” There is no conclusive argument for “almah” in Isaiah 7:14 being either “young woman” or “virgin.” However, it is interesting to note, that in the 3rd century B.C., when a panel of Hebrew scholars and Jewish rabbis began the process of translating the Hebrew Scriptures into Greek, they used the specific Greek word for virgin, “parthenos,” not the more generic Greek word for “young woman.”

So, your assertion the young woman Isaiah spoke of is a whore is just plane dumb and an attempt to force your opinion of biased belief to the mother of Jesus.

 

[Cougarbear]

How’s that possible?

With God anything is possible. The author of science and the universe certainly could have a simple in vitro fertilization procedure done. Who performed it? The Spirit of God or the Holy Ghost, a personage of spirit was the doctor.

 

[surada]

“The Hebrew word in Isaiah 7:14 is “almah,” and its inherent meaning is “young woman.” “Almah” can mean “virgin,” as young unmarried women in ancient Hebrew culture were assumed to be virgins. Again, though, the word does not necessarily imply virginity. “Almah” occurs seven times in the Hebrew Scriptures (Genesis 24:43; Exodus 2:8; Psalm 68:25; Proverbs 30:19; Song of Solomon 1:3; 6:8; Isaiah 7:14). None of these instances demands the meaning “virgin,” but neither do they deny the possible meaning of “virgin.” There is no conclusive argument for “almah” in Isaiah 7:14 being either “young woman” or “virgin.” However, it is interesting to note, that in the 3rd century B.C., when a panel of Hebrew scholars and Jewish rabbis began the process of translating the Hebrew Scriptures into Greek, they used the specific Greek word for virgin, “parthenos,” not the more generic Greek word for “young woman.”

So, your assertion the young woman Isaiah spoke of is a whore is just plane dumb and an attempt to force your opinion of biased belief to the mother of Jesus.

Where did you come up with whore? Is that a Mormon thing?

 

[Cougarbear]

Where did you come up with whore? Is that a Mormon thing?

No, that’s what you think of Mary.

 

[surada]

No, that’s what you think of Mary.

Show me where I ever said Mary was a whore. Is lying a thing for Mormons? Damn you're low life.

 

[Cougarbear]

Show me where I ever said Mary was a whore. Is lying a thing for Mormons? Damn you're low life.

Back in those days, sex before marriage is what constituted a whore. Joseph and Mary were married after she became pregnant. You really are struggling now that I’ve established that Isaiah did mean Virgin and that your definition of the word used by Isaiah isn’t correct. Resorting to name calling is self evident of this struggle.

 

[surada]

Back in those days, sex before marriage is what constituted a whore. Joseph and Mary were married after she became pregnant. You really are struggling now that I’ve established that Isaiah did mean Virgin and that your definition of the word used by Isaiah isn’t correct. Resorting to name calling is self evident of this struggle.

Virginity is never stipulated as a requirement of the Israelite people before marriage, the only exception being that a priest can only marry a virgin according to Leviticus 21:13-14. Also, in the Old Testament, whatever expectation that people had concerning being virgins was only applied to women, and then only within the context that a groom demands his wife be a virgin. Virginity before marriage was never considered a religious virtue in and of itself.

Furthermore, men of Old Testament times regularly engaged in polygamy and concubinage. These practices were commonly accepted and never explicitly condemned; so how is the Bible in any position to pontificate to us today concerning the now-common practice of premarital sex? Also, there are a number of anecdotes of premarital sex, such as Abraham begetting Ishmael with his wife's slave, Hagar, and also Jacob begetting sons with his wives' slaves Bilhah and Zilpah. These anecdotes never state or imply that there was anything wrong with these actions.

 

[hadit]

The "Immaculate Conception" refers to the purity of Mary, not of the virgin birth of Jesus. That Mary was indeed a virgin is stated by herself, that she had 'never known a man'.

Unfortunately, Mary could not be sinless, because if she was, there was no need for Jesus to go to the cross for the sin of mankind, as she demonstrated that people could be sinless on their own. Let us not forget Jesus pleading with the Father for ANY other way to accomplish the goal, and there being none.

 

[Libby von H]

Jesus was baptized because He was trying to set an example for His followers and He was virgin born because that's the only way that He could escape being a sinner like the rest of us? Just curious because that's what I have been told, but those are a couple of biblical accounts that I'm not sure if I understand or not.

Jesus was baptized as a Jew, it is only later that a fuller meaning was added. But , note, added. He was virgin born becauses He is human and Dvine, as the Creed says "
who was conceived by the Holy Spirit,
born of the Virgin Mary,"

again, it was only later that that aspect was known.

 

[Mr Natural]

Let us not forget Jesus pleading with the Father for ANY other way to accomplish the goal, and there being none.

Couldn’t God have snapped His fingers and smited all the sinners and saved His only son a lot of trouble?

 

[hadit]

Couldn’t God have snapped His fingers and smited all the sinners and saved His only son a lot of trouble?

Of course, He could have, if He wanted to violate His Grace and Mercy. He came close to that in the Flood but kept man around for another try.

 

[Mr Natural]

Of course, He could have, if He wanted to violate His Grace and Mercy. He came close to that in the Flood but kept man around for another try.

Could He also not have prevented the flood?

 

[Cougarbear]

Virginity is never stipulated as a requirement of the Israelite people before marriage, the only exception being that a priest can only marry a virgin according to Leviticus 21:13-14. Also, in the Old Testament, whatever expectation that people had concerning being virgins was only applied to women, and then only within the context that a groom demands his wife be a virgin. Virginity before marriage was never considered a religious virtue in and of itself.

Furthermore, men of Old Testament times regularly engaged in polygamy and concubinage. These practices were commonly accepted and never explicitly condemned; so how is the Bible in any position to pontificate to us today concerning the now-common practice of premarital sex? Also, there are a number of anecdotes of premarital sex, such as Abraham begetting Ishmael with his wife's slave, Hagar, and also Jacob begetting sons with his wives' slaves Bilhah and Zilpah. These anecdotes never state or imply that there was anything wrong with these actions.

You really don’t know your history. This is so comical seeing you try to jump through all kinds of hoops. Trying to equate the doctrine of polygamy to premarital sex is a hoot! Sexual relations before marriage was always a sin. Women were looked upon as whores. Still are in some parts of the world. You lost this debate. Better luck next time

 

[surada]

Back in those days, sex before marriage is what constituted a whore. Joseph and Mary were married after she became pregnant. You really are struggling now that I’ve established that Isaiah did mean Virgin and that your definition of the word used by Isaiah isn’t correct. Resorting to name calling is self evident of this struggle.

The suffering servant in Isaiah is Israel not Jesus. Read all of Isaiah not just verse 53.

There was no rule in Judaism that made the loss of virginity a sin. Women were virgins until they had a child. Mary was the immaculate conception not Jesus.

Look at the law. If a girl was raped her father was compensated not the victim.

 

[Cougarbear]

The suffering servant in Isaiah is Israel not Jesus. Read all of Isaiah not just verse 53.

There was no rule in Judaism that made the loss of virginity a sin. Women were virgins until they had a child. Mary was the immaculate conception not Jesus.

Look at the law. If a girl was raped her father was compensated not the victim.

Again, you speak of things you know nothing about. All of chapter 53 had nothing to do with Hezekiah. It’s a messianic prophecy of Emmanuel, son of the young Virgin Mary. And, I still haven’t seen you answer Isaiah 29 and the sealed book in the ground to come forward at a future date in the last days. Not have you answered where is your book of Joseph?