Did Jesus really exist?

[THE LIGHT]

Nope. No contradictions. Only differences in viewpoint as would be expected by credible witnesses in a court of law. If everyone had the same made up story then something would be fishy. Your statement contradicts itself in logic anyway because if they collaborated and wrote the gospels at a later date then they would have fixed them discrepancies don't you think?
.

Um. No.

There's a HUGE contradiction at the beginning of the Gospels of Matthew and Luke.

Now, both Matt and Luke plagiarize heavily from Mark's Gospel. In fact, 96% of Mark is repeated in one or both of them. But Mark didn't talk about Jesus' early life.

If the 4 gospels agree, then you say they are plagiarized and if there is an apparent difference then you say it is a contradiction.

Luke and Matthew decide to throw in the virgin birth in Bethlehem part of the story and trace JC's genealogy back to King David to up his street cred as the Messiah. The problem was, of course, they were making this shit up on the fly. So of course, their "genealogies" list difference people as Jesus' ancestors, and both trace his lineage through Joseph, who wasn't actually his father. It was supposedly God who got his sticky man Juice in the "Virgin" Mary.

Nay, but it was the skillful work of a designer. Hiding the plain truth right in front of your nose. Luke account traces the genealogy of Mary from Adam while Matthew traces the genealogy of Joseph back to Abraham. Satan thought he had it all figured out by getting God to place a blood curse on Jeconiah stating that no man of Jeconiah's seed would inherit the throne of David (Jeremiah 22:30). But Jesus was not of the seed of Joseph. Joseph was only his "legal" father.

The Hilarity gets even better. Matthew's Jesus is born in Bethlehem but Joseph Flees to Egypt and then Galilee because King Herod went on a baby-killing rampage just like Pharaoh did when Moses was born. (Plagiarism Alert)

And that isn't plagiarism, that is just what satan does when he is trying to eliminate a person of promise. I don't see anything "Hilari[ous]" with killing babies.

Luke's Jesus was born in Bethlehem because Roman Governor Quirinius ordered a census that required his family to come down from Galilee to get counted. Which is where you get the whole "Born in a Barn!" bit.

Don't see any "discrepancy" just both accounts looking at different details.

The decree was by Augustus.

And it came to pass in those days, that there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus, that all the world should be taxed.
(Luke 2:1 KJV)

Now here's where we have a HUGE problem. Herod died in 4 BCE. Which means Jesus had to have been born between 6-4 BCE for the story to work. MEANWHILE- Quirinius was governor of Syria and Judea (but not Galilee) form 6 AD to 12 AD.

So now you have a 10-18 year gap as to when Jesus was born.

or they were just making this shit up.

Josephus says that Herod's death was between a lunar eclipse and passover. The most fitting total eclipse that could be seen from Jerusalem would likely be the one on January 9, 1BC. Therefore Herod's death would be sometime in early 1BC and Jesus would have been born around 1-2 BC. Irenaous states that Jesus was born in the 41st year of Agustus' reign, and since Agustus began his reign in 43 BC, this once again confirms the date of 2 BC.


So to recap. No discrepancies found.

 

[Hollie]

Nope. No contradictions. Only differences in viewpoint as would be expected by credible witnesses in a court of law. If everyone had the same made up story then something would be fishy. Your statement contradicts itself in logic anyway because if they collaborated and wrote the gospels at a later date then they would have fixed them discrepancies don't you think?
.

Um. No.

There's a HUGE contradiction at the beginning of the Gospels of Matthew and Luke.

Now, both Matt and Luke plagiarize heavily from Mark's Gospel. In fact, 96% of Mark is repeated in one or both of them. But Mark didn't talk about Jesus' early life.

If the 4 gospels agree, then you say they are plagiarized and if there is an apparent difference then you say it is a contradiction.

Luke and Matthew decide to throw in the virgin birth in Bethlehem part of the story and trace JC's genealogy back to King David to up his street cred as the Messiah. The problem was, of course, they were making this shit up on the fly. So of course, their "genealogies" list difference people as Jesus' ancestors, and both trace his lineage through Joseph, who wasn't actually his father. It was supposedly God who got his sticky man Juice in the "Virgin" Mary.

Nay, but it was the skillful work of a designer. Hiding the plain truth right in front of your nose. Luke account traces the genealogy of Mary from Adam while Matthew traces the genealogy of Joseph back to Abraham. Satan thought he had it all figured out by getting God to place a blood curse on Jeconiah stating that no man of Jeconiah's seed would inherit the throne of David (Jeremiah 22:30). But Jesus was not of the seed of Joseph. Joseph was only his "legal" father.

The Hilarity gets even better. Matthew's Jesus is born in Bethlehem but Joseph Flees to Egypt and then Galilee because King Herod went on a baby-killing rampage just like Pharaoh did when Moses was born. (Plagiarism Alert)

And that isn't plagiarism, that is just what satan does when he is trying to eliminate a person of promise. I don't see anything "Hilari[ous]" with killing babies.

Luke's Jesus was born in Bethlehem because Roman Governor Quirinius ordered a census that required his family to come down from Galilee to get counted. Which is where you get the whole "Born in a Barn!" bit.

Don't see any "discrepancy" just both accounts looking at different details.

The decree was by Augustus.

And it came to pass in those days, that there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus, that all the world should be taxed.
(Luke 2:1 KJV)

Now here's where we have a HUGE problem. Herod died in 4 BCE. Which means Jesus had to have been born between 6-4 BCE for the story to work. MEANWHILE- Quirinius was governor of Syria and Judea (but not Galilee) form 6 AD to 12 AD.

So now you have a 10-18 year gap as to when Jesus was born.

or they were just making this shit up.

Josephus says that Herod's death was between a lunar eclipse and passover. The most fitting total eclipse that could be seen from Jerusalem would likely be the one on January 9, 1BC. Therefore Herod's death would be sometime in early 1BC and Jesus would have been born around 1-2 BC. Irenaous states that Jesus was born in the 41st year of Agustus' reign, and since Agustus began his reign in 43 BC, this once again confirms the date of 2 BC.


So to recap. No discrepancies found.

The discrepancy you fail to note is your obvious break with a reality based worldview.

You have floated some rather strange conspiracies involving mythical entities of gawds and satans. As with so many religionists, you have assigned various human attributes to the spooks and demons who haunt your world.

Your comments in this thread more that highlight a disturbed, alternate reality that is at odds with the modern, relevant world. Ultimately, the modern world of science, reason and rationality is under no obligation to make allowance for such imposed standards of ignorance and superstition. To endorse those practices that represent sneering disdain for the enlightened world is self destructive. The allowance for retrograde ignorance is a symbol of repression.

 

[PostmodernProph]

because TNT is so filled with holdovers from Greek Mythology.

got any documentation of that absurd claim?.....

Are you kidding?
Demons, withering hands, Satan.
In fact, are you fucking kidding?

yes....I was kidding...l knew you would not be able to document it so when I asked for documentation, it was a joke.....

I'll do it. But, I need a day off so that I can pull my stuff out. It would have more than mythos. Although, I'm not going to war with you. I simply find that aspect fascinating.

do me a favor and come up with something new....I'm tired of repeating why Dionyses did not have a virgin birth.....

I don't have to go to Dionyses if I want to talk about the virgin birth.

St. Jerome translated the bible into Latin. He tells you that he knows that it isn't true but keeps on rolling. He does that here:

32. Isaiah tells of the mystery of our faith and hope:4478“Behold a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Emmanuel.” I know that the Jews are accustomed to meet us with the objection that in Hebrew the word Almah does not mean a virgin, but a young woman. And, to speak truth, a virgin is properly called Bethulah, but a young woman, or a girl, is not Almah, but Naarah!4479What then is the meaning of Almah? A hidden virgin, that is, not merely virgin, but a virgin and something more, because not every virgin is hidden, shut off from the occasional sight of men. Then again, Rebecca, on account of her extreme purity, and because she was a type of the Church which she represented in her own virginity, is described in Genesis as Almah, not Bethulah, as may clearly be proved from the words of Abraham’s servant, spoken by him in Mesopotamia:4480“And he said, O Lord, the God of my master Abraham, if now thou do prosper my way which I go: behold I stand by the fountain of water; and let it come to pass, that the maiden which cometh forth to draw, to whom I shall say, Give me, I pray thee, a little water of this pitcher to drink; and she shall say to me, Both drink thou, and I will also draw for thy camels: let the same be the woman whom the Lord hath appointed for my master’s son.” Where he speaks of the maiden coming forth to draw water, the Hebrew word is Almah, that is, a virgin secluded, and guarded by her parents with extreme care. Or, if this be not so, let them at least show me where the word is applied to married women as well, and I will confess my ignorance. “Behold a virgin shall conceive and bear a son.” If virginity be not preferred to marriage, why did not the Holy Spirit choose a married woman, or a widow? For at that time Anna the daughter of Phanuel, of the tribe of Aser, was alive, distinguished for purity, and always free to devote herself to prayers and fasting in the temple of God. If the life, and good works, and fasting without virginity can merit the advent of the Holy Spirit, she might well have been the mother of our Lord. Let us hasten to the rest:4481“The virgin daughter of Zion hath despised thee and laughed thee to scorn.” To her whom he called daughter the prophet also gave the title virgin, for fear that if he spoke only of a daughter, it might be supposed that she was married. This is the virgin daughter whom elsewhere he thus addresses:4482“Sing, O barren, thou that dost not bear; break forth into singing, and cry aloud, thou that didst not travail with child: for more are the children of the desolate, than the children of the married wife, saith the Lord.” This is she of whom God by the mouth of Jeremiah speaks, saying:4483“Can a maid forget her ornaments, or a bride her attire.” Concerning her we read of a great miracle in the same prophecy4484—that a woman should compass a man, and that the Father of all things should be contained in a virgin’s womb.

NPNF2-06. Jerome The Principal Works of St. Jerome - Christian Classics Ethereal Library

But, that isn't where I was going.

It seems that when I post this, you guys run. Jerome knows that if he tells the truth and corrects the wording then they can't use Isaiah 7:14.

okay....I've read it three times and I still can't figure out what that quote has to do with the topic I've been discussing.........would you care to point out what it has to do with the claim that Christianity is a holdover from Greek mythology?.....

The NT is an argument.........one side of the argument. It is an extension of older arguments.

Like......free will

Start here:
Hellenistic Astrology Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy

When I have time later I will add to it. BTW, do you know what language St. Jerome was translating from into Latin?

sorry, I don't debate internet sites.....they really suck at defending themselves.....if you come up with something YOU want to discuss, feel free to post it.......

I'm not asking you to debate an internet site. I'm giving you material that I will expand on. It's easily verifiable. You wanted documentation, no?

I would prefer if you would stay on topic.

St. Jerome was translating Koine Greek to Latin. Latin was already a dead language pretty much every place else. Anywhoo, let me introduce you to the Septuagint.
Septuagint - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

third irrelevant post in a row.....why are you even posting.....the claim was that Christianity is a holdover from Greek mythology......

 

[Votto]

On another thread, I made the statement that Jesus was a made up character.

Here's why I think he was.

1) The Gospels were written years after his supposed life, and they contradict each other on key points.

2) He is not mentioned by a lot of contemporary writers who should have noticed him.

3) He shares a lot of traits with other mythological figures.

I've done extensive research on this. The Jesus that Paul popularized appears to be a composite of 12 figures. One of them was the High Priest of the Sanhedrin, a Jesus ben David, who was crucified by the Romans. This was some 300 years prior to the events of the New Testament, but it appears the basis of the crucifixion story, though the Sanhedrin were the "good guys" standing up to the invading Romans in the historical account, where Paul made them the villains.

Probably the most telling thing is that the Romans have VOLUMES of data on Paul - they REALLY didn't like him, but not a single word about Jesus. Think about this, the most litigious society up to that point, that recorded and cataloged EVERYTHING, somehow failed to mention a rabble rouser in Judea? The reality is simply, the Jesus of the New Testament is a creation of Paul, the first of the great cult masters. Paul created a formula that EVERY successful cult since has followed, it is not I that is god, I am but his chosen messenger. Note that Muhammad, Joseph Smith, David Koresh, Jim Jones, and Ti and Do ALL used the same formula - because it works.

Paul gathered the myths and tales, from Gnostic, mystical, and traditional sources, and created a god that he could point to as he built his empire.

So Paul gave up his life for a lie, eh?

 

[PostmodernProph]

A Born Again Christian would sooner spend their life time in a Malaria ridden swamp than spend 3 months learning Hebrew.

ironic.....do you have any idea whether I have studied Hebrew?.....

I want to discuss the misquotes and mistranslations in TNT.
Just like St. Jerome did.
So please, MORE St. Jerome!

you didn't do so well defending your claim about Greek mythology.....do you think you can do better with mistranslations?......

 

[PostmodernProph]

"The star appeared in the East, so brilliant that it seemed to rival the sun and set the night sky aflame. The luminous tail curved across a quarter of the heavens, as long as the Milky Way. The year was 135 BC.
Across Anatolia, and from the Caucasus to Persia, the comet was greeted with rejoicing. According to well known prophecies a bright new light in the sky would announce the coming of a savior king, a messiah or great leader who would triumph over enemies. Four generations later, another marvelous star in the East would lead the Magi to the little town of Bethlehem to honor the humble birth of another savior. But before the Star of Bethlehem there was the Star of Sinope. The comet of 135 BC coincided with the birth of Mithradates VI Eupator Dionysus, in Sinope, capital of Pontus on the Black Sea."
The infants family name, Mithradates (Old Persian Mithradatha, "sent by Mithra"), commemorated the ancient Iranian (Persian) god of Sun, Light and Truth. In ancient Persian traditions, a great fire or light from the heavens had accompanied Mithra's birth. According to the Roman historian Justin, two heavenly portents foretold the future greatness of the newborn prince of Pontus. "In the year that Mithradates was begotten, and again when he first began to rule, comets blazed forth with such splendor that the whole sky seemed to be on fire."
Another comet coincided with him becoming king in 119 BC.
The interesting thing about comets is that they scared the crap out of Romans. All of those places that were listed above? They were anti-Rome.
Those comets were documented in China by the Hans Dynasty astrologers. They happened.

"In the East, hopes for salvation grew. The most famous apocalyptic revelation was an ancient Iranian prophecy known as the Oracle of Hystaspes, a Persian-Babylonian sage. The oracle foretold the destruction of Rome by fire and sword and the coming of a savior king from the East whose birth would be proclaimed by a brilliant light from heaven. Another prophecy, the Zorastrian apocalyptic scripture of the third century BC called the Bahman Yasht, envisioned an avenging savior who would be born under a shooting star
: this prince would drive foreign tyrants out of Asia."

Egypt same thing.

I'd bet that you have no idea who this cat is. In 88 BCE, in approximately 12 cities across Anatolia about 80,000 Romans and Italians were massacred at about the same time. It was orchestrated by Mithradates and it was done without any of the conspirators letting the cat out of the bag.

Mayor, A. (2010). A Savior is Born in a Castle by the Sea. In The Poison King: The Life and Legend of Mithradates Rome's Deadliest Enemy (pp. 27-42). Princeton: Princeton University Press.

So, are you ready for Alexandria or do you need me to explain the Greco-Persian wars real quick or mayhap the genealogy of Mithradates? He's the result of the Persian Kings and the family of Alexander the Great (not as great as dear old dad).

please provide links so I can respond....or don't you do documentation?.....

 

[Indeependent]

Greek Mythology is based on spirits, scaring the shit out of people and haphazard destiny.
The gods are spooky and will damn you to some ungodly hellish experience whether or not you piss them off.
TNT is exactly that....
You have negative commandments but, then again, you don't have commandments.
You have zero influence on your own balance sheet.
And, of course, if you don't believe, why, you're going to hell.

Then we have 1,000 years of torturing people into believing so they don't go to hell.
Pathetic.

 

[PostmodernProph]

nothing here about shooting stars.....did you just make it up?....
Mithridates VI of Pontus - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

 

[PostmodernProph]

Greek Mythology is based on spirits, scaring the shit out of people and haphazard destiny.
The gods are spooky and will damn you to some ungodly hellish experience whether or not you piss them off.
TNT is exactly that....

lol.....now I see how it works....you just have to make shit up so you can claim a parallel.....

 

[Indeependent]

A Born Again Christian would sooner spend their life time in a Malaria ridden swamp than spend 3 months learning Hebrew.

ironic.....do you

I want to discuss the misquotes and mistranslations in TNT.
Just like St. Jerome did.
So please, MORE St. Jerome!

you didn't do so well defending your claim about Greek mythology.....do you think you can do better with mistranslations?......

Actually, I do speak Hebrew pretty darn well.
I study Torah, Mishnah, Talmud and various commentaries in Hebrew and Aramaic.

Mistranslations...
A lifetime's work as every single Torah reference in TNT is mistranslated or taken out of context.
Saul of Tarsus was no scholar and never claimed to be.

 

[Indeependent]

lol.....now I see how it works....you just have to make shit up so you can claim a parallel.....

Greek Mythology...Spooky demons and spirits.
Very Star Trek: Deep Space Nine.

Now let me see that withered hand and Diver's Disease.

 

[PostmodernProph]

A Born Again Christian would sooner spend their life time in a Malaria ridden swamp than spend 3 months learning Hebrew.

ironic.....do you

I want to discuss the misquotes and mistranslations in TNT.
Just like St. Jerome did.
So please, MORE St. Jerome!

you didn't do so well defending your claim about Greek mythology.....do you think you can do better with mistranslations?......

Actually, I do speak Hebrew pretty darn well.
I study Torah, Mishnah, Talmud and various commentaries in Hebrew and Aramaic.

Mistranslations...
A lifetime's work as every single Torah reference in TNT is mistranslated or taken out of context.
Saul of Tarsus was no scholar and never claimed to be.

well, obviously you didn't dedicate your life to understanding Greek mythology.....

 

[Indeependent]

A Born Again Christian would sooner spend their life time in a Malaria ridden swamp than spend 3 months learning Hebrew.

ironic.....do you

I want to discuss the misquotes and mistranslations in TNT.
Just like St. Jerome did.
So please, MORE St. Jerome!

you didn't do so well defending your claim about Greek mythology.....do you think you can do better with mistranslations?......

Actually, I do speak Hebrew pretty darn well.
I study Torah, Mishnah, Talmud and various commentaries in Hebrew and Aramaic.

Mistranslations...
A lifetime's work as every single Torah reference in TNT is mistranslated or taken out of context.
Saul of Tarsus was no scholar and never claimed to be.

well, obviously you didn't dedicate your life to understanding Greek mythology.....

I spent a childhood reading Greek Mythology.
It never did smack of real life.

After 30+ years of delving into the Jewish Scriptures, I was shocked by the The Gospel According To Matthew.
I literally had tears of laughter rolling from my eyes as I found myself reading a poor attempt at Stephen King.
Then I recoiled in horror afterwards realizing afterwards that this story was a basis for a religion.
No wonder The Roman Catholic Church has such a bloody history.
Demonize, torture and kill to save someone's soul.
And if you find yourself in a society where you can't demonize, torture and kill, keep reminding them of...
The Lake.
A sick result of a flawed theology.

 

[PostmodernProph]

A Born Again Christian would sooner spend their life time in a Malaria ridden swamp than spend 3 months learning Hebrew.

ironic.....do you

I want to discuss the misquotes and mistranslations in TNT.
Just like St. Jerome did.
So please, MORE St. Jerome!

you didn't do so well defending your claim about Greek mythology.....do you think you can do better with mistranslations?......

Actually, I do speak Hebrew pretty darn well.
I study Torah, Mishnah, Talmud and various commentaries in Hebrew and Aramaic.

Mistranslations...
A lifetime's work as every single Torah reference in TNT is mistranslated or taken out of context.
Saul of Tarsus was no scholar and never claimed to be.

well, obviously you didn't dedicate your life to understanding Greek mythology.....

I spent a childhood reading Greek Mythology.
It never did smack of real life.

After 30+ years of delving into the Jewish Scriptures, I was shocked by the The Gospel According To Matthew.
I literally had tears of laughter rolling from my eyes as I found myself reading a poor attempt at Stephen King.
Then I recoiled in horror afterwards realizing afterwards that this story was a basis for a religion.
No wonder The Roman Catholic Church has such a bloody history.
Demonize, torture and kill to save someone's soul.
And if you find yourself in a society where you can't demonize, torture and kill, keep reminding them of...
The Lake.
A sick result of a flawed theology.

if you're well versed in it, I find it odd you have yet to back up your claim that Christianity is a holdover of Greek mythology?.....what's your favorite.....Osiris as a virgin or the crucifixion of Atticus?.....or maybe its just the claim that every deity that ever existed was born on December 25th.......

 

[Indeependent]

A Born Again Christian would sooner spend their life time in a Malaria ridden swamp than spend 3 months learning Hebrew.

ironic.....do you

I want to discuss the misquotes and mistranslations in TNT.
Just like St. Jerome did.
So please, MORE St. Jerome!

you didn't do so well defending your claim about Greek mythology.....do you think you can do better with mistranslations?......

Actually, I do speak Hebrew pretty darn well.
I study Torah, Mishnah, Talmud and various commentaries in Hebrew and Aramaic.

Mistranslations...
A lifetime's work as every single Torah reference in TNT is mistranslated or taken out of context.
Saul of Tarsus was no scholar and never claimed to be.

well, obviously you didn't dedicate your life to understanding Greek mythology.....

I spent a childhood reading Greek Mythology.
It never did smack of real life.

After 30+ years of delving into the Jewish Scriptures, I was shocked by the The Gospel According To Matthew.
I literally had tears of laughter rolling from my eyes as I found myself reading a poor attempt at Stephen King.
Then I recoiled in horror afterwards realizing afterwards that this story was a basis for a religion.
No wonder The Roman Catholic Church has such a bloody history.
Demonize, torture and kill to save someone's soul.
And if you find yourself in a society where you can't demonize, torture and kill, keep reminding them of...
The Lake.
A sick result of a flawed theology.

if you're well versed in it, I find it odd you have yet to back up your claim that Christianity is a holdover of Greek mythology?.....what's your favorite.....Osiris as a virgin or the crucifixion of Atticus?.....or maybe its just the claim that every deity that ever existed was born on December 25th.......

I see you don't get it.
The style of TNT is nothing akin to the style of it's "mother" religion.
Every single word, phrase, verse and chapter of the Torah can be parsed, analyzed and compared.
It is a moral and, to a lessor extent, historical book.
TNT comes across as nothing more than a Grimm's Tale; a fairy tale.
There's a reason there's over 250,000 variants in TNT; it doesn't matter as the words and verses were never intended to relay a message other than, "Believe or burn".
In fact, a poorly dated fairy tale as relevant to today as Greek Mythology.

I stopped reading Mythology in my late single digit years and got bored of comics around the age of 18.
There has been no relevance to my life in Myths for 30+ years.
Even the movies are boring.

 

[MaxGrit]

Everything can and should be questioned. And that's the whole point. I question that your messiah even exists and so I resist the notion that I should live my life with him as my example and standard.

Yes. The question is seeking an answer. Do your research.

Almost all scholars agree that Jesus is a real historical figure.

 

[MaxGrit]

lol.....now I see how it works....you just have to make shit up so you can claim a parallel.....

You only figure that out now? LoL.

All arguments that deny the existence of Jesus Christ are fallacious arguments.

100% certain that Jesus Christ is God.

 

[Noomi]

I believe he was a real person but that he was just an ordinary person, nothing special about him at all.

 

[AtheistBuddah]

Everything can and should be questioned. And that's the whole point. I question that your messiah even exists and so I resist the notion that I should live my life with him as my example and standard.

Yes. The question is seeking an answer. Do your research.

Almost all scholars agree that Jesus is a real historical figure.

I simply know that not to be true. A great many historians are highly skeptical of his existence.

 

[THE LIGHT]

I believe he was a real person but that he was just an ordinary person, nothing special about him at all.

I appreciate your honesty.

Do you believe that he made the claims that the Bible said he did?