Contraception - a discussion

[DiamondDave]

liberals like to camp.....

I wonder if a liberal owner of a camping gear store would apprerciate the government passing a law saying that the store MUST sell hunting equipment.

Something to chew on.

guess if that hunting gear can prevent a medical condition im all for it. can you prove that it provides any health related services?

Spirituality and belief have been shown to 'prevent' or even help in the treatment of some medical conditions... you going to force an employer or store to sell gear for your particular spiritual belief??

What next??... HPV vaccinations or even chicken pox vaccinations can help 'prevent' medical conditions... with the same force you advocate, should your employer FORCE you to partake in such things, even if they are against your belief or *gasp* you don't want them??

The thing is... YOUR care is up to YOU... and just because you believe you want or need something, you do not get to force others to provide it for you or to you

 

[Jarhead]

liberals like to camp.....

I wonder if a liberal owner of a camping gear store would apprerciate the government passing a law saying that the store MUST sell hunting equipment.

Something to chew on.

guess if that hunting gear can prevent a medical condition im all for it. can you prove that it provides any health related services?

A diversion from the point.

Government mandating a company sell something that goes against its morals...

But OK....ill bite anyway....

Right now, New Jersey has a bear population issue. Bears are starting to invade communities. Sure...I know..and I agree...it is our fault....we are taking their space AND their food away from them. But it is still a dangerous situation for the residents..the kids in particular.

So 20 years from now, the problem becomes so bad that children are being attacked while playing in the school yard.

The only solution is population control....extended hunting seasons for bear. But there just arent enough hunters becuase there is so little hunting advertisisng and such a small interest in hunting....and few stores sell the equipment.

Would you applaud a NJ law saying that all camping stores must sell hunting equipment even if the store owner is against hunting?

Sure...far fetched....but the point is, we can always come up with a good reason to mandate somneone sell something.

How about this....

NY State is broke. So they are pushing the lottery. But the lines for tickets get long when the pot is big and many dont want to deal with the lines.

So is it OK for the NYS government to mandate that ALL retial stores sell lottery tickets?

 

[TheLonelySquire]

When a woman chooses to have sex she accepts the possible risk of a pregnancy. To kill the unborn is not only selfish it is (in my opinion) murder. Karma will hopefully sort it out if she doesn't respect life.

 

[jillian]

The Catholic Church is opposed to contraception for moral reasons.

Where is the morality in creating a life when food and clean water are rare commodities? Where poverty exists and educational opportunities are non existent?

Where is the morality when disease is spread?

Where is the morality when a women is the victim of domestic violence? When a women is forced to conceive and then trapped as the child become a lever to gain more power and more control?

i find it much more interesting that the religious right pushes for abortion to become illegal, because life is sacred, while at the same time opposing universal health care.

its extremely hypocritical to say life is sacred when your willing to fight to protect an unborn life, but not willing to fight to protect people who have already been born.

when you force women to have children they may not want, in many cases they become dependent on the state for services such as medicaid, food stamp, welfare, the foster system, etc etc.

They aren't pro life... they're pro birth.

if they weren't, they'd be arranging adoptions for unwanted children.

if they weren't, they'd be supporting day care and job training and education for unwed mothers

if they weren't, they'd support WIC and head start.

but they are....

because it isn't about "life", it's about punishing the harlots and making women incubators.

which is why something like 80% of anti-choice activists are men.

 

[Jarhead]

The Catholic Church is opposed to contraception for moral reasons.

Where is the morality in creating a life when food and clean water are rare commodities? Where poverty exists and educational opportunities are non existent?

Where is the morality when disease is spread?

Where is the morality when a women is the victim of domestic violence? When a women is forced to conceive and then trapped as the child become a lever to gain more power and more control?

i find it much more interesting that the religious right pushes for abortion to become illegal, because life is sacred, while at the same time opposing universal health care.

its extremely hypocritical to say life is sacred when your willing to fight to protect an unborn life, but not willing to fight to protect people who have already been born.

when you force women to have children they may not want, in many cases they become dependent on the state for services such as medicaid, food stamp, welfare, the foster system, etc etc.

They aren't pro life... they're pro birth.

if they weren't, they'd be arranging adoptions for unwanted children.

if they weren't, they'd be supporting day care and job training and education for unwed mothers

if whey weren't, they'd support WIC and head start.

but they are....

because it isn't about "life", it's about punishing the harlots and making women incubators.

which is why something like 80% of anti-choice activists are men.

lines like the one in bold?

Childish and immature.

 

[Jarhead]

When a woman chooses to have sex she accepts the possible risk of a pregnancy. To kill the unborn is not only selfish it is (in my opinion) murder. Karma will hopefully sort it out if she doesn't respect life.

if you were a true conservative, you wouldnt really care what one does with their body.

A true conservative doesnt want to pay for one to abort....but a true conservative doesnt care what someone else does with their lives. It is none of our business.

 

[jillian]

i find it much more interesting that the religious right pushes for abortion to become illegal, because life is sacred, while at the same time opposing universal health care.

its extremely hypocritical to say life is sacred when your willing to fight to protect an unborn life, but not willing to fight to protect people who have already been born.

when you force women to have children they may not want, in many cases they become dependent on the state for services such as medicaid, food stamp, welfare, the foster system, etc etc.

They aren't pro life... they're pro birth.

if they weren't, they'd be arranging adoptions for unwanted children.

if they weren't, they'd be supporting day care and job training and education for unwed mothers

if whey weren't, they'd support WIC and head start.

but they are....

because it isn't about "life", it's about punishing the harlots and making women incubators.

which is why something like 80% of anti-choice activists are men.

lines like the one in bold?

Childish and immature.

*yawn*

truth hurts?

push any of the rabid anti choicers and you get the words "the time to choose is before you spread your legs".

or "they have to take responsibility"

but thanks for your generally useless observation.

 

[Syphon]

liberals like to camp.....

I wonder if a liberal owner of a camping gear store would apprerciate the government passing a law saying that the store MUST sell hunting equipment.

Something to chew on.

guess if that hunting gear can prevent a medical condition im all for it. can you prove that it provides any health related services?

A diversion from the point.

Government mandating a company sell something that goes against its morals...

But OK....ill bite anyway....

Right now, New Jersey has a bear population issue. Bears are starting to invade communities. Sure...I know..and I agree...it is our fault....we are taking their space AND their food away from them. But it is still a dangerous situation for the residents..the kids in particular.

So 20 years from now, the problem becomes so bad that children are being attacked while playing in the school yard.

The only solution is population control....extended hunting seasons for bear. But there just arent enough hunters becuase there is so little hunting advertisisng and such a small interest in hunting....and few stores sell the equipment.

Would you applaud a NJ law saying that all camping stores must sell hunting equipment even if the store owner is against hunting?

Sure...far fetched....but the point is, we can always come up with a good reason to mandate somneone sell something.

How about this....

NY State is broke. So they are pushing the lottery. But the lines for tickets get long when the pot is big and many dont want to deal with the lines.

So is it OK for the NYS government to mandate that ALL retial stores sell lottery tickets?

i dont see how any of your examples affect the personal health and well being on society as a whole. give me an example from an industry that can provide life or death services such as health care and we can have a discussion.

your bear example may be close but youre actually advocating actually killing something, instead of solving the overall problem.

 

[Jarhead]

They aren't pro life... they're pro birth.

if they weren't, they'd be arranging adoptions for unwanted children.

if they weren't, they'd be supporting day care and job training and education for unwed mothers

if whey weren't, they'd support WIC and head start.

but they are....

because it isn't about "life", it's about punishing the harlots and making women incubators.

which is why something like 80% of anti-choice activists are men.

lines like the one in bold?

Childish and immature.

*yawn*

truth hurts?

push any of the rabid anti choicers and you get the words "the time to choose is before you spread your legs".

or "they have to take responsibility"

but thanks for your generally useless observation.

stop acting like a child and try to debate.

 

[g5000]

*yawn*

truth hurts?

push any of the rabid anti choicers and you get the words "the time to choose is before you spread your legs".

or "they have to take responsibility"

but thanks for your generally useless observation.

Thanks for confirming you casually dismiss people taking responsibilty for their own behavior and yet demand others to take up their slack and be responsible for them.

Jesus, the hypocrisy in this topic from liberals is ripe.

 

[g5000]

When a woman chooses to have sex she accepts the possible risk of a pregnancy. To kill the unborn is not only selfish it is (in my opinion) murder. Karma will hopefully sort it out if she doesn't respect life.

if you were a true conservative, you wouldnt really care what one does with their body.

A true conservative doesnt want to pay for one to abort....but a true conservative doesnt care what someone else does with their lives. It is none of our business.

A true conservative doesn't believe they should have to pay for someone else's sex life. Get your goddammed hands out of my pocket!

 

[Syphon]

When a woman chooses to have sex she accepts the possible risk of a pregnancy. To kill the unborn is not only selfish it is (in my opinion) murder. Karma will hopefully sort it out if she doesn't respect life.

if you were a true conservative, you wouldnt really care what one does with their body.

A true conservative doesnt want to pay for one to abort....but a true conservative doesnt care what someone else does with their lives. It is none of our business.

A true conservative doesn't believe they should have to pay for someone else's sex life. Get your goddammed hands out of my pocket!

i dont think that states like NY and CA which pay more money in federal taxes than we get back from the government should subsidize states like MS, AL, AK, SC and KY which get more in federal tax dollars than they pay.
same argument, different situation. tell them get off the govt teet and take care of themselves.

 

[Jarhead]

guess if that hunting gear can prevent a medical condition im all for it. can you prove that it provides any health related services?

A diversion from the point.

Government mandating a company sell something that goes against its morals...

But OK....ill bite anyway....

Right now, New Jersey has a bear population issue. Bears are starting to invade communities. Sure...I know..and I agree...it is our fault....we are taking their space AND their food away from them. But it is still a dangerous situation for the residents..the kids in particular.

So 20 years from now, the problem becomes so bad that children are being attacked while playing in the school yard.

The only solution is population control....extended hunting seasons for bear. But there just arent enough hunters becuase there is so little hunting advertisisng and such a small interest in hunting....and few stores sell the equipment.

Would you applaud a NJ law saying that all camping stores must sell hunting equipment even if the store owner is against hunting?

Sure...far fetched....but the point is, we can always come up with a good reason to mandate somneone sell something.

How about this....

NY State is broke. So they are pushing the lottery. But the lines for tickets get long when the pot is big and many dont want to deal with the lines.

So is it OK for the NYS government to mandate that ALL retial stores sell lottery tickets?

i dont see how any of your examples affect the personal health and well being on society as a whole. give me an example from an industry that can provide life or death services such as health care and we can have a discussion.

your bear example may be close but youre actually advocating actually killing something, instead of solving the overall problem.

again, a diversion.
I dont hunt. I am against hunting. It was an example...

I am confused......if most offer contraception and a few dont, how will that affect health and well being on society?

Have we had a problem BEFORE the proposed madate? Has health and death been a problem becuase of lack of contraceptives?

There is no problem. There never was. Most offer it. Some dont.

All a mandate would do is give government control over what someone has to sell...even though it was never an issue to begin with.

It is not going to solve a probnlem we dont even have. Heck...even most oin the left are saying that the insurance cvompanies ALREADY cover it....cool...that is their choice......

It is an intrusion on capitalism for absolutely no reason.

So now the healthcare law has TWO madates.

For the first time in US history, a person is being told they MUST purchase something

and for the first time an industry is beihg told they MUST offer something.

Those are two big FIRSTS...and the door is getting wider.

Cant you see my point?

 

[DiamondDave]

The Catholic Church is opposed to contraception for moral reasons.

Where is the morality in creating a life when food and clean water are rare commodities? Where poverty exists and educational opportunities are non existent?

Where is the morality when disease is spread?

Where is the morality when a women is the victim of domestic violence? When a women is forced to conceive and then trapped as the child become a lever to gain more power and more control?

i find it much more interesting that the religious right pushes for abortion to become illegal, because life is sacred, while at the same time opposing universal health care.

its extremely hypocritical to say life is sacred when your willing to fight to protect an unborn life, but not willing to fight to protect people who have already been born.

when you force women to have children they may not want, in many cases they become dependent on the state for services such as medicaid, food stamp, welfare, the foster system, etc etc.

They aren't pro life... they're pro birth.

if they weren't, they'd be arranging adoptions for unwanted children.

if they weren't, they'd be supporting day care and job training and education for unwed mothers

if they weren't, they'd support WIC and head start.

but they are....

because it isn't about "life", it's about punishing the harlots and making women incubators.

which is why something like 80% of anti-choice activists are men.

No Jill.. most of what you advocate are more handouts for personal responsibilities...

As an adult you are responsible for your advancement, education, training, job skills, etc... you are responsible to feed, cloth, shelter, etc you and yours

This is not about punishing anyone... this is about having people live with the consequences of their actions...

Oh.. and we do have orphans, 'unwanted' children that have been put up for adoptions etc that are wards of the state... and those children wards of the state are taken care of and homes are searched for for them

 

[jillian]

i find it much more interesting that the religious right pushes for abortion to become illegal, because life is sacred, while at the same time opposing universal health care.

its extremely hypocritical to say life is sacred when your willing to fight to protect an unborn life, but not willing to fight to protect people who have already been born.

when you force women to have children they may not want, in many cases they become dependent on the state for services such as medicaid, food stamp, welfare, the foster system, etc etc.

They aren't pro life... they're pro birth.

if they weren't, they'd be arranging adoptions for unwanted children.

if they weren't, they'd be supporting day care and job training and education for unwed mothers

if they weren't, they'd support WIC and head start.

but they are....

because it isn't about "life", it's about punishing the harlots and making women incubators.

which is why something like 80% of anti-choice activists are men.

No Jill.. most of what you advocate are more handouts for personal responsibilities...

As an adult you are responsible for your advancement, education, training, job skills, etc... you are responsible to feed, cloth, shelter, etc you and yours

This is not about punishing anyone... this is about having people live with the consequences of their actions...

Oh.. and we do have orphans, 'unwanted' children that have been put up for adoptions etc that are wards of the state... and those children wards of the state are taken care of and homes are searched for for them

contraception IS being personally responsible.

of course it's about punishment... and "consequences"... as opposed to what's good for society.

but you know that.

or is this a michelle bachmann... those who shall not work, shall not eat... thing?

again, how does that mitigate against things like making sure there are adoptions and head start. it's not the kid's fault, is it?

or should they carry the red A like mom?

 

[DiamondDave]

They aren't pro life... they're pro birth.

if they weren't, they'd be arranging adoptions for unwanted children.

if they weren't, they'd be supporting day care and job training and education for unwed mothers

if they weren't, they'd support WIC and head start.

but they are....

because it isn't about "life", it's about punishing the harlots and making women incubators.

which is why something like 80% of anti-choice activists are men.

No Jill.. most of what you advocate are more handouts for personal responsibilities...

As an adult you are responsible for your advancement, education, training, job skills, etc... you are responsible to feed, cloth, shelter, etc you and yours

This is not about punishing anyone... this is about having people live with the consequences of their actions...

Oh.. and we do have orphans, 'unwanted' children that have been put up for adoptions etc that are wards of the state... and those children wards of the state are taken care of and homes are searched for for them

contraception IS being personally responsible.

of course it's about punishment... and "consequences"... as opposed to what's good for society.

but you know that.

or is this a michelle bachmann... those who shall not work, shall not eat... thing?

again, how does that mitigate against things like making sure there are adoptions and head start. it's not the kid's fault, is it?

or should they carry the red A like mom?

It is not being personally responsible when you are trying to force someone else to provide it or fund part of it, even when it is against that person's/company's beliefs

It is not about punishment, sorry... it is about holding people up for their own responsibilities?? Is paying your own rent punishment? Is feeding yourself punishment? Is wiping your own ass punishment?

 

[California Girl]

The Catholic Church is opposed to contraception for moral reasons.

Where is the morality in creating a life when food and clean water are rare commodities? Where poverty exists and educational opportunities are non existent?

Where is the morality when disease is spread?

Where is the morality when a women is the victim of domestic violence? When a women is forced to conceive and then trapped as the child become a lever to gain more power and more control?

i find it much more interesting that the religious right pushes for abortion to become illegal, because life is sacred, while at the same time opposing universal health care.

its extremely hypocritical to say life is sacred when your willing to fight to protect an unborn life, but not willing to fight to protect people who have already been born.

when you force women to have children they may not want, in many cases they become dependent on the state for services such as medicaid, food stamp, welfare, the foster system, etc etc.

They aren't pro life... they're pro birth.

if they weren't, they'd be arranging adoptions for unwanted children.

if they weren't, they'd be supporting day care and job training and education for unwed mothers

if they weren't, they'd support WIC and head start.

but they are....

because it isn't about "life", it's about punishing the harlots and making women incubators.

which is why something like 80% of anti-choice activists are men.

The Catholic Church is hugely involved in adoption services. It also funds programs such as day care for single parents (of either gender)..... we also provide school places, for kids from all faiths, and no faith.... Don't let the facts get in the way, though.

 

[BluePhantom]

Despite what the learned opinion of the medical professionals in the College of Bishops say, IUDs are not abortifacients.

Well since an abortifacient is a drug that would be correct, but to the point of whether it causes an abortion.....well that depends on your faith doesn't it? If you believe that a fertilized egg is a "human life" then the use of anything that prevents that egg from implanting would be considered an abortion. As the question of whether a fertilized egg is a "human life" is a matter of faith it becomes an argument between scientific definitions and religious definitions and at that point it's kind of a draw.

No. Medical Science is not a matter of faith. IUDs prevent fertilization. Not implantation. This issue is being debated on information that isn't even factual. Hypothetically, if the IUD missed on preventing fertilization, then it could prevent implantation.

So the Catholic Church's whole objection is over a hypothetical situation that, if it happens, is extremely rare.

http://www.acog.org/~/media/For Patients/faq014.pdf?dmc=1&ts=20120302T1345477509

I was hoping to avoid one of my long winded posts but it appears I was not thorough enough in my point. "Rare" is enough for a faith motivated person to have opposition to something. Yes an IUD's primary function is to stop fertilization, but in the rare event that fertilization occurs it has a secondary function of helping to prevent implantation. Granted it's exceedingly rare but that function exists and the possibility of preventing the implantation process after fertilization exists. If possibility exists, then potential exists and as such it's enough for a religion to oppose it.

Now you (and I for that matter) may argue: "well that happens in perhaps one out of every thousand cases if that often". Doesn't matter. That one case is enough. You and I may argue: "well that's an irrational and unscientific point of view". Well when you look at it strictly from a scientific perspective that is correct. But the church does not look at things strictly from a scientific perspective and until science can disprove religion (which by the very natures of science [which accepts only what can be proven] and religion [based on what cannot be proven] is impossible) it's pretty much a draw.

 

[Jarhead]

i find it much more interesting that the religious right pushes for abortion to become illegal, because life is sacred, while at the same time opposing universal health care.

its extremely hypocritical to say life is sacred when your willing to fight to protect an unborn life, but not willing to fight to protect people who have already been born.

when you force women to have children they may not want, in many cases they become dependent on the state for services such as medicaid, food stamp, welfare, the foster system, etc etc.

They aren't pro life... they're pro birth.

if they weren't, they'd be arranging adoptions for unwanted children.

if they weren't, they'd be supporting day care and job training and education for unwed mothers

if they weren't, they'd support WIC and head start.

but they are....

because it isn't about "life", it's about punishing the harlots and making women incubators.

which is why something like 80% of anti-choice activists are men.

The Catholic Church is hugely involved in adoption services. It also funds programs such as day care for single parents (of either gender)..... we also provide school places, for kids from all faiths, and no faith.... Don't let the facts get in the way, though.

yeah...but all of that doesnt count becuase the Catholic Church is a bunch of far right wing nut jobs who likely dont care about those they help; they just do it for show.

 

[Jarhead]

No Jill.. most of what you advocate are more handouts for personal responsibilities...

As an adult you are responsible for your advancement, education, training, job skills, etc... you are responsible to feed, cloth, shelter, etc you and yours

This is not about punishing anyone... this is about having people live with the consequences of their actions...

Oh.. and we do have orphans, 'unwanted' children that have been put up for adoptions etc that are wards of the state... and those children wards of the state are taken care of and homes are searched for for them

contraception IS being personally responsible.

of course it's about punishment... and "consequences"... as opposed to what's good for society.

but you know that.

or is this a michelle bachmann... those who shall not work, shall not eat... thing?

again, how does that mitigate against things like making sure there are adoptions and head start. it's not the kid's fault, is it?

or should they carry the red A like mom?

It is not being personally responsible when you are trying to force someone else to provide it or fund part of it, even when it is against that person's/company's beliefs

It is not about punishment, sorry... it is about holding people up for their own responsibilities?? Is paying your own rent punishment? Is feeding yourself punishment? Is wiping your own ass punishment?

huh?

What?

You mean we all dont have a Mexican national come into our homes and do that for us twice a day?