Christians and Firearms for protection?

[Wingsofwind]

I am starting this thread because of a discussion I had with a member in another thread because of my avatar. I do not wish to discuss it any longer in that thread because it is taking it off topic.

My question is: Is it Biblical to protect yourself and loved ones from harm? And if so is it Biblical to use a weapon to do so?

Please use Biblical references to support your claims if possable.
No name calling and keep the discussion civilized please.

 

[Mr. Sauerkraut]

wingsofwind, let me tell you that i like to excuse me. the way you´re going to discuss this item is polite, adult and correct in anyway. I did make the descision for myself never even to touch a gun, not to mention of of owning or using one. But this was my descision, according to my understanding of humanity and christianity. As said, in a country of much more freedom, but even of much more violence and much more danger to get lost in any way, i can understand that the asking for a banning of guns makes many people upset. On the one hand, we don´t have these masses of gun deaths here. But banning guns isn´t a guarantee for having no gun crimes at all as the world had seen in our school massacres in the last years.

To ground this acceptance to guns with the bible is for my thoughts not really possible. Too often speaks and acts jesus about ahimsa (nonviolence) and even his way to death was an act of refusing violence at all. And all of his first followers died like him, refusing violence, as martyrs. As christians, we´re requested to follow the path and example of jesus and that does include, for my understanding, the waiving of shotguns at all.

 

[Wingsofwind]

wingsofwind, let me tell you that i like to excuse me. the way you´re going to discuss this item is polite, adult and correct in anyway. I did make the descision for myself never even to touch a gun, not to mention of of owning or using one. But this was my descision, according to my understanding of humanity and christianity. As said, in a country of much more freedom, but even of much more violence and much more danger to get lost in any way, i can understand that the asking for a banning of guns makes many people upset. On the one hand, we don´t have these masses of gun deaths here. But banning guns isn´t a guarantee for having no gun crimes at all as the world had seen in our school massacres in the last years.

To ground this acceptance to guns with the bible is for my thoughts not really possible. Too often speaks and acts jesus about ahimsa (nonviolence) and even his way to death was an act of refusing violence at all. And all of his first followers died like him, refusing violence, as martyrs. As christians, we´re requested to follow the path and example of jesus and that does include, for my understanding, the waiving of shotguns at all.

Jesus was being crucified because of what He was teaching and He was fulfilling prophecy. Anyone who uses this to say Jesus was a pacifist is taking what happened out of context. His followers were killed because of their teachings and beliefs. A martyr is somebody who suffers persecution and death because they refuse to renounce their belief. They didn't die because of an intruder in their homes, a mass murder who just wants to kill as many people as they can, a rapist, etc..

Jesus' actions and words are not the only things taught in the Bible. Jesus is the companionate side of the Lord, that is why many see him as a pacifist. However, when He turned over the money changers tables it was showing that He can be stern when He had to.

My question was not referring to protection due to your religion but rather protection from those who will harm you just because. Many attacks are not due to religion. In fact, many attackers could care less what your beliefs are. This is the protection I am referring to.

You say you will never pick up a gun to protect yourself. What if the gun is there because the Lord is giving you a way to help yourself?

Ever here the story of the guy in a flood? He was stranded on top of his house and three times someone came by and offered to help him. He refused saying 'No thanks, the Lord will save me'. Then he drowned. When he got to heaven he asked God 'Why didn't you save me from drowning?'. The Lord answered and said 'Three times I gave you a way out and Three times you refused'.

To say the Lord will protect you in a time of need when you do nothing to help yourself is like what happened in this story. Now I am not trying to say the Lord will not save you in a situation and I commend you for having even the slightest faith that He would. All I am saying is how do you know that the way He will save you is giving you a way to help yourself. This don't mean it has to be a firearm, it could be training in hand to hand combat or even mace. Non of these are full proof, even a firearm, but they can help if/when you need it.

 

[Mr. Sauerkraut]

i don´t know if you ever heard of the german law, that every young man has to go to military service for a few month. He has the right to refuse but then he must do a civil service like workng in a hospital.

In the 70ths and 80ths it was very difficult to enforce his right to civil service. It has to made a long, written justification why exactly the military service wants to be refused and after them, a personal interview with three military interrogator followed. And they asked always the same question:

"Imagine you go with your girlfriend through a park. Three drunk men are coming and want to rape your girlfriend. You see, there is a gun in the bushes. What do you do then?"

If the man answered: "I pick up the gun and lurk to shoot" then he failed the test and he had to go in military services, because if he was able to pick up a gun, then he´s able to shoot too.

Your story reminded me in that. I don´t know if it´s a cultural difference, a matter of education or what else: We don´t have these touch to guns here. My first girlfriend became a cop. When she showed me her gun in 1988, this was the last time i ever saw a real gun. I know that not one of my neighbours owns a gun. I know that nobody in my street owns a gun. Even not in my entire quarter. Maybe there are some hunters or sport shooters but they have to lock their guns extremely safe.
But we buildt up houses, in which breaking in isn´t easy. We have 24cm stone walls and steel doors with security locks as standart. But the most important thing is, that we have social peace here. There are no drug gangs, driving around, shooting and dealing. And I live side by side to a muslim family. Even one of my best friends was a muslim (he died 3 Weeks ago by lung cancer), war veteran and fugtive from persia.

I can´t imagine that god drives me in a situation ever, that forces me to use a gun. That´s not my imagination, not my understanding of god. Don´t misunderstand me: If you have the given right to own a gun and you live in a quarter where the dealers, gangs and drugheads are standing at every corner (what i´ve seen so when i visisted your country), then you have my sympathy to own a gun. It´s the link to faith and the bible that makes me feel bitter.

Maybe other members want to share their thoughts with us.

 

[Wingsofwind]

i don´t know if you ever heard of the german law, that every young man has to go to military service for a few month. He has the right to refuse but then he must do a civil service like workng in a hospital.

In the 70ths and 80ths it was very difficult to enforce his right to civil service. It has to made a long, written justification why exactly the military service wants to be refused and after them, a personal interview with three military interrogator followed. And they asked always the same question:

"Imagine you go with your girlfriend through a park. Three drunk men are coming and want to rape your girlfriend. You see, there is a gun in the bushes. What do you do then?"

If the man answered: "I pick up the gun and lurk to shoot" then he failed the test and he had to go in military services, because if he was able to pick up a gun, then he´s able to shoot too.

Your story reminded me in that. I don´t know if it´sa cultural difference, a matter of education or what else: We don´t have these touch to guns here. My first girlfriend became a cop. When she showed me her gun in 1988, this was the last time i ever saw a real gun. I know that not one of my neighbours owns a gun. I know that nobody in my street owns a gun. Even not in my entire quarter. Maybe there are some hunters or sport shooters but they have to lock their guns extremely safe.
But we buildt up houses, in which breaking in isn´t easy. We have 24cm stone walls and steel doors with security locks as standart. But the most important thing is, that we have social peace here. There are no drug gangs, driving around, shooting and dealing. And I live side by side to a muslim family. Even one of my best friends was a muslim (he died 3 Weeks ago by lung cancer), war veteran and fugtive from persia.

I can´t imagine that god drives me in a situation ever, that forces me to use a gun. That´s not my imagination, not my understanding of god. Don´t misunderstand me: If you have the given right to own a gun and you live in a quarter where the dealers, gangs and drugheads are standing at every corner (what i´ve seen so when i visisted your country), then you have my sympathy to own a gun. It´s the link to faith and the bible that makes me feel bitter.

Maybe other members want to share their thoughts with us.

Would be nice.

Sorry to hear about your friend.

 

[strollingbones]

matthew 5:39

luke 6:29

you can use the bible to rationalize anything


as sinclair lewis said...when facism comes to american it will be carrying a cross and draped in a flag

 

[editec]

My question is: Is it Biblical to protect yourself and loved ones from harm? And if so is it Biblical to use a weapon to do so?

The Bible gives you liberty to do whatever the heck you feel like doing.

It gives you (if you interpret it this way) the right to invade your neighbors land, kill all the men and take their women as concubines.

It give you liberty to stone people to death for weaing the wrong clothing or for working on the Sabbath.

So do whatever the hell you want and you will be able to find some passage or story that rationalizes your actions.

 

[Wingsofwind]

matthew 5:39

luke 6:29

you can use the bible to rationalize anything


as sinclair lewis said...when facism comes to american it will be carrying a cross and draped in a flag

Mat 5:39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.

Luk 6:29 And unto him that smiteth thee on the one cheek offer also the other; and him that taketh away thy cloke forbid not to take thy coat also.

Smite:
G4474
ῥαπίζω
rhapizō
hrap-id'-zo
From a derivative of ῥέπω rhepō, a primary word, (to let fall, “rap”); to slap (with the palm of the hand): - smite (with the palm of the hand). Compare G5180.

Smiteth:

G5180
τύπτω
tuptō
toop'-to
A primary verb (in a strengthened form); to “thump”, that is, cudgel or pummel (properly with a stick or bastinado), but in any case by repeated blows; thus differing from G3817 and G3960, which denote a [usually single] blow with the hand or any instrument, or G4141 with the fist [or a hammer], or G4474 with the palm; an accidental collision); by implication to punish; figuratively to offend (the conscience): - beat, smite, strike, wound.

To use the Bible to rationalize properly, you have to read things as it is used in the context of a chapter or passage. You also have to harmonize verses, if one seems to contradict the other then one may not mean what you think it does.

The word 'smite' does not mean an attempted killing. And if someone kills one of your children do you think Jesus would want you to offer that person to kill another one of your children? So many people use these passages to say you are not supposed to even protect yourself and loved ones from murder. This is reading too much into one or two verses something that is not there not to mention taking it out of context.

If you read the whole passages Jesus was referring to the personality of a Christian. I don't believe Jesus was referring to a literal 'slap' but rather referring to someone who would backstab or offend you. This is what I gather by reading it in the context it is used.

 

[Wingsofwind]

My question is: Is it Biblical to protect yourself and loved ones from harm? And if so is it Biblical to use a weapon to do so?

The Bible gives you liberty to do whatever the heck you feel like doing.

It gives you (if you interpret it this way) the right to invade your neighbors land, kill all the men and take their women as concubines.

It give you liberty to stone people to death for weaing the wrong clothing or for working on the Sabbath.

So do whatever the hell you want and you will be able to find some passage or story that rationalizes your actions.

NO, a twisting of the Bible does this

 

[Mr. Sauerkraut]

My question is: Is it Biblical to protect yourself and loved ones from harm? And if so is it Biblical to use a weapon to do so?

The Bible gives you liberty to do whatever the heck you feel like doing.

It gives you (if you interpret it this way) the right to invade your neighbors land, kill all the men and take their women as concubines.

It give you liberty to stone people to death for weaing the wrong clothing or for working on the Sabbath.

So do whatever the hell you want and you will be able to find some passage or story that rationalizes your actions.

NO, a twisting of the Bible does this

but who decides, what´s a twisting of a bible is? Where is the manual for the bible?

 

[editec]

My question is: Is it Biblical to protect yourself and loved ones from harm? And if so is it Biblical to use a weapon to do so?

The Bible gives you liberty to do whatever the heck you feel like doing.

It gives you (if you interpret it this way) the right to invade your neighbors land, kill all the men and take their women as concubines.

It give you liberty to stone people to death for weaing the wrong clothing or for working on the Sabbath.

So do whatever the hell you want and you will be able to find some passage or story that rationalizes your actions.

NO, a twisting of the Bible does this

One man's TRUE WORD OF GOD is another man's HERETICAL belief, dude.

Debates over what the Bible means tore Europe up for about three hundred years.

Both sides TRULY believed they and THEY ALONE understood the Bible.

 

[Wingsofwind]

but who decides, what´s a twisting of a bible is? Where is the manual for the bible?

The Bible gives you liberty to do whatever the heck you feel like doing.

It gives you (if you interpret it this way) the right to invade your neighbors land, kill all the men and take their women as concubines.

It give you liberty to stone people to death for weaing the wrong clothing or for working on the Sabbath.

So do whatever the hell you want and you will be able to find some passage or story that rationalizes your actions.

NO, a twisting of the Bible does this

One man's TRUE WORD OF GOD is another man's HERETICAL belief, dude.

Debates over what the Bible means tore Europe up for about three hundred years.

Both sides TRULY believed they and THEY ALONE understood the Bible.

Okay, you two can win on this one.

However, I was asking what people believed on 'this' subject. If they wanted to use the Bible to show what they believe then it is appreciated. To show why you believe in something is showing that your opinion is based on actual logic. Whether you think believing in the Bible is logical or not is up to you.

However, I was wanting a topic on what was asked. If you don't believe in the Bible then please discuss what you believe on the topic and why without bringing up the Bible. I asked for scripture so those who do believe in the Bible can use it as their reasons why they believe what they do.

 

[California Girl]

Here's my theory: In a nutshell. "Is é Dia amháin a thabharfaidh breithiúnas orm." In English, "only God can judge me." What I do, in any given situation, is between me and Him. No one else.

 

[Bill Angel]

I am starting this thread because of a discussion I had with a member in another thread because of my avatar. I do not wish to discuss it any longer in that thread because it is taking it off topic.

My question is: Is it Biblical to protect yourself and loved ones from harm? And if so is it Biblical to use a weapon to do so?

Please use Biblical references to support your claims if possable.
No name calling and keep the discussion civilized please.

I believe that the Old Testament is clear on this point:

""Blessed be the LORD my strength which teacheth my hands to war, and my fingers to fight," David writes in Psalms 144:1.

There is no pacifism in the Old Testament.

Now on a more personal note.
I served in the US Military with occasional duties as a courier of Top Secret material.
I carried a side arm like the one depicted in your user icon. I was prepared to use the sidearm not only for self defense, but also to prevent a hostile party from gaining unlawful possession of the material.

 

[bigrebnc1775]

 

[Mr. Sauerkraut]

I am starting this thread because of a discussion I had with a member in another thread because of my avatar. I do not wish to discuss it any longer in that thread because it is taking it off topic.

My question is: Is it Biblical to protect yourself and loved ones from harm? And if so is it Biblical to use a weapon to do so?

Please use Biblical references to support your claims if possable.
No name calling and keep the discussion civilized please.

I believe that the Old Testament is clear on this point:

""Blessed be the LORD my strength which teacheth my hands to war, and my fingers to fight," David writes in Psalms 144:1.

There is no pacifism in the Old Testament.

Now on a more personal note.
I served in the US Military with occasional duties as a courier of Top Secret material.
I carried a side arm like the one depicted in your user icon. I was prepared to use the sidearm not only for self defense, but also to prevent a hostile party from gaining unlawful possession of the material.

Well. If you are a jew, you´re welcome to advert to the old testament, because it´s practical the same like the thora. But as a christ, the new testament is always the more important word, a christian should follow. Jesus didn´t negotiate the old testament at all - but he denied and corrected many of it´s written laws. So as a christ i would think twice ever, before i do anything and try to justify my acts with the old testament.

 

[JamesInFlorida]

matthew 5:39

luke 6:29

you can use the bible to rationalize anything


as sinclair lewis said...when facism comes to american it will be carrying a cross and draped in a flag

Mat 5:39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.

Luk 6:29 And unto him that smiteth thee on the one cheek offer also the other; and him that taketh away thy cloke forbid not to take thy coat also.

Smite:
G4474
ῥαπίζω
rhapizō
hrap-id'-zo
From a derivative of ῥέπω rhepō, a primary word, (to let fall, “rap”); to slap (with the palm of the hand): - smite (with the palm of the hand). Compare G5180.

Smiteth:

G5180
τύπτω
tuptō
toop'-to
A primary verb (in a strengthened form); to “thump”, that is, cudgel or pummel (properly with a stick or bastinado), but in any case by repeated blows; thus differing from G3817 and G3960, which denote a [usually single] blow with the hand or any instrument, or G4141 with the fist [or a hammer], or G4474 with the palm; an accidental collision); by implication to punish; figuratively to offend (the conscience): - beat, smite, strike, wound.

To use the Bible to rationalize properly, you have to read things as it is used in the context of a chapter or passage. You also have to harmonize verses, if one seems to contradict the other then one may not mean what you think it does.

The word 'smite' does not mean an attempted killing. And if someone kills one of your children do you think Jesus would want you to offer that person to kill another one of your children? So many people use these passages to say you are not supposed to even protect yourself and loved ones from murder. This is reading too much into one or two verses something that is not there not to mention taking it out of context.

If you read the whole passages Jesus was referring to the personality of a Christian. I don't believe Jesus was referring to a literal 'slap' but rather referring to someone who would backstab or offend you. This is what I gather by reading it in the context it is used.

I'm not saying you're right or wrong (it's not my place, and quite frankly who really knows). People can read the same things in the bible, and take two different views from it. For example someone can read where Jesus flips the tables over at the temple as proof as Jesus isn't a pacifist, where as somebody else can say well it was just one time he lost his cool-and even then never physically harmed anybody.

I think it just boils down to how people read into it. And there's no definitive context, finding context in writing that dates back almost 2 thousand years ago isn't the easiest thing to do.

 

[uscitizen]

Jesus flipping the tables over did get him crucified though.
those moneychangers are tough.