China’s J-20 Stealth Fighter Has No Canon

[DrainBamage]

Looking at the construction, it's about as stealthy as a F-15 and less stealthy than a F-16 if both of those were to have stealth paint and kept to a minimum of the same weapons load.

I don't think J-20 is anywhere near as stealthy as B-2/F-22/F-35, I'm mainly skeptical of the canards (maybe they can be stealthy I have no idea) and it doesn't have the jagged edges that every stealth design has for contact parts like bomb bay doors.

However I think it would be much more stealthy than an F-15 or F-16. It's got similar shaping to F-22 in the nose, blended inlets, same wing shape as F-22/F-35, canted tails, and with the bay doors closed would have very little clutter from underneath.

F-15 with straight tail, boxy non-blended inlets, big pylons under the wings, external weapons, etc. I'd assume would have much bigger RCS than J-20. It would be interesting to know though, like a source estimating RCS of F-15 versus other aircraft.

 

[Daryl Hunt]

Looking at the construction, it's about as stealthy as a F-15 and less stealthy than a F-16 if both of those were to have stealth paint and kept to a minimum of the same weapons load.

I don't think J-20 is anywhere near as stealthy as B-2/F-22/F-35, I'm mainly skeptical of the canards (maybe they can be stealthy I have no idea) and it doesn't have the jagged edges that every stealth design has for contact parts like bomb bay doors.

However I think it would be much more stealthy than an F-15 or F-16. It's got similar shaping to F-22 in the nose, blended inlets, same wing shape as F-22/F-35, canted tails, and with the bay doors closed would have very little clutter from underneath.

F-15 with straight tail, boxy non-blended inlets, big pylons under the wings, external weapons, etc. I'd assume would have much bigger RCS than J-20. It would be interesting to know though, like a source estimating RCS of F-15 versus other aircraft.

One of the additions to the F-15X is the SE package of the Conformal Tanks with the internal weapons bays. That means it can carry 4 AAMRAMs and 2 Aim-9X Missiles internally. The F-15 already has a better stealth than most as long as it was clean so it was a natural to be chosen for a stealth upgrade package. Israel is looking at purchasing the X model along with the SE conformal add ons.

 

[DrainBamage]

Yeah I know about the F-15SE, but talking about a potential aircraft that nobody has actually bought (has one even been built?) is a lot different than saying the F-15 is as stealthy as a J-20.

I'd still be interesting in knowing RCS of an F-15 versus other aircraft like Typhoon or Rafale, I'm a bit skeptical that a large fighter designed in the early 70s is in any way stealthier than most others.

 

[Daryl Hunt]

Yeah I know about the F-15SE, but talking about a potential aircraft that nobody has actually bought (has one even been built?) is a lot different than saying the F-15 is as stealthy as a J-20.

I'd still be interesting in knowing RCS of an F-15 versus other aircraft like Typhoon or Rafale, I'm a bit skeptical that a large fighter designed in the early 70s is in any way stealthier than most others.

The Typhoon and the Rafale has a slightly better RCS than the F-15 due to their size. The F-15 is a very large fighter. IT's RCS is rated at about 2.5 while the other two are about 1.5. The Chinese claim their F-20 is about 1.1. By adding the conformal tank/weapon bay the F-15 hits below the 1.0 mark as long as other weapons or tanks are not present as well as no other external pods are present. These are averages and from different angles, the numbers will vary.

AS for no one has ever built a F-15SE, it's not a new build, it's a Modification and it's been done at about 3.4 million a copy. Any E model can be made into a SE.



BTW, a Bear bomber has the RCS of the Hilton Hotel.

 

[westwall]

Yeah I know about the F-15SE, but talking about a potential aircraft that nobody has actually bought (has one even been built?) is a lot different than saying the F-15 is as stealthy as a J-20.

I'd still be interesting in knowing RCS of an F-15 versus other aircraft like Typhoon or Rafale, I'm a bit skeptical that a large fighter designed in the early 70s is in any way stealthier than most others.

Sometimes the designers get lucky. The GO 229 of WWII is remarkably stealthy, and the SR-71 is likewise an incredibly stealthy aircraft.

 

[Pilot1]

You idiots waste time & money fighting the last wars. Drones are the future, not pilots dog fighting.

Hate to admit it but today, the pilot is the weakest link in the chain with today's technology. It's no surprise they're called the "Chair Force", sadly.

 

[martybegan]

The last time a US fighter got into a Gunfight was two F-15Cs against 2 Iraqi Mig-29s. One Mig-29 was flown into the ground while the other ended up, after a turn and burn fight, was bagged by a Aim--9. Neither Migs could stay long enough on the pipper to get bagged by the gun.

Like I said, when was the last gun kill?

Either way I'm interested, I'd read about a F-15 vs. Mig-29 engagement once where a MIG flew into the ground but in that incident one MIG was downed by a Sparrow first then the other flew into the ground. Maybe we're talking different incidents.

When was the last time there was an occurrence of large scale aerial combat?

All our current examples are from small engagements, usually of a overmatched air force/craft against someone with air supremacy/superiority and a superior aircraft.

What happens to the J-20's if they are involved in a furball over the Taiwan straight after the long range missile approach phase?

 

[Pilot1]

Modern rules of engagement often require VISUAL contact, and verification of IFF. That can make missiles less relevant, not irrelevant, but less so.

 

[Daryl Hunt]

Yeah I know about the F-15SE, but talking about a potential aircraft that nobody has actually bought (has one even been built?) is a lot different than saying the F-15 is as stealthy as a J-20.

I'd still be interesting in knowing RCS of an F-15 versus other aircraft like Typhoon or Rafale, I'm a bit skeptical that a large fighter designed in the early 70s is in any way stealthier than most others.

Sometimes the designers get lucky. The GO 229 of WWII is remarkably stealthy, and the SR-71 is likewise an incredibly stealthy aircraft.

If you are talking about making it right the first time, there are many 1950s and 1960s designs that fall into that category. Some for stealth and others for other things. People like Kelly Johnson only comes along once in a lifetime.

 

[Daryl Hunt]

The last time a US fighter got into a Gunfight was two F-15Cs against 2 Iraqi Mig-29s. One Mig-29 was flown into the ground while the other ended up, after a turn and burn fight, was bagged by a Aim--9. Neither Migs could stay long enough on the pipper to get bagged by the gun.

Like I said, when was the last gun kill?

Either way I'm interested, I'd read about a F-15 vs. Mig-29 engagement once where a MIG flew into the ground but in that incident one MIG was downed by a Sparrow first then the other flew into the ground. Maybe we're talking different incidents.

When was the last time there was an occurrence of large scale aerial combat?

All our current examples are from small engagements, usually of a overmatched air force/craft against someone with air supremacy/superiority and a superior aircraft.

What happens to the J-20's if they are involved in a furball over the Taiwan straight after the long range missile approach phase?

It may all come down to the Pilot. Yes, I know, some believe the Pilot is the weakest link but let's face it, the Mig-29, in a dog fight, should have taken the F-15. It didn't. On a two on two, the F-15 took out both Mig-29s with superior Pilots. The Tiawaniese Pilots will be superior to the Chinese Pilots only due to the training and tactics and that will mean everything in the world. The Chinese are playing catchup on tactics and flying time.

 

[DrainBamage]

The Chinese claim their F-20 is about 1.1

Where did they claim this? They have been very secretive about everything with J-20, I can't imagine them publicly releasing it's RCS.

AS for no one has ever built a F-15SE, it's not a new build, it's a Modification and it's been done at about 3.4 million a copy. Any E model can be made into a SE.

Yes, an F-15E could be upgraded to SE but has that ever happened for anything more than a technology demonstrator?

All the marketing for F-15SE has been for foreign sales of new build fighters, batches of F-15SEs built from scratch to the SE standard. Problem is they haven't had much success selling them. Saudi Arabia expressed interest but went with the F-15SA. Japan expressed interest but went with the F-35. South Korea was supposed to buy it but they are also going F-35.

Boeing eventually shelved the program because nobody was interested, and these days is promoting the F-15 Advanced which has the conformal fuel tanks (like F-15Es already have) along with upgraded avionics. The F-15 Advanced is what might eventually sell to Israel.

 

[DrainBamage]

What happens to the J-20's if they are involved in a furball over the Taiwan straight after the long range missile approach phase?

They have short range heat seeking missiles as well.

 

[DrainBamage]

Modern rules of engagement often require VISUAL contact, and verification of IFF. That can make missiles less relevant, not irrelevant, but less so.

But statistics on air-to-air kills in the modern era indicate missiles have become more relevant, not less relevant. Relevant to the point where every kill since Vietnam era has been by a missile, except for the A-10 vs. helicopter incident.

To add to this identification of other aircraft has been advancing right along with the sensors that drive it. If you turn your radar on an F-22/F-35 will know what type of aircraft you are, and that F-35 will take it a step further and automatically focus electro-optical sensors on an unknown to compare against digital library and tell the pilot what kind of plane that is.

 

[DrainBamage]

The Tiawaniese Pilots will be superior to the Chinese Pilots only due to the training and tactics and that will mean everything in the world. The Chinese are playing catchup on tactics and flying time.

Yep, there are pilots from Taiwan who train on F-16s at Luke AFB, flying F-16s against some of the best pilots in the world from all over the world. I saw a picture of one of their training groups at Luke it had pilots from USA, Taiwan, Singapore, Greece, Denmark, and Belgium. I wondered at the time if Singapore/Taiwan had an edge since could speak to each other in Mandarin without others understanding

 

[DrainBamage]

Found list of aircraft RCS, with obviously MASSIVE FUCKING CAVEAT that who knows where they got this info or how accurate it is.

It does confirm Westwall's mention of SR-71.

That's from GlobalSecurity.org

I don't know why they list B-2 three times, but it's got a huge advantage over others in that is has no tail, which supposedly is one of the hardest things to design around for LO from all angles. Others use canted tails to try to compensate, even the F-15SE that Darryl mentions had the tails changed to have a 15 degree angle instead of the two reflective billboards on the F-15.

There is lots of speculation that the next generation fighter will be a tailless design like B-2/B-21.

 

[westwall]

Yeah I know about the F-15SE, but talking about a potential aircraft that nobody has actually bought (has one even been built?) is a lot different than saying the F-15 is as stealthy as a J-20.

I'd still be interesting in knowing RCS of an F-15 versus other aircraft like Typhoon or Rafale, I'm a bit skeptical that a large fighter designed in the early 70s is in any way stealthier than most others.

Sometimes the designers get lucky. The GO 229 of WWII is remarkably stealthy, and the SR-71 is likewise an incredibly stealthy aircraft.

If you are talking about making it right the first time, there are many 1950s and 1960s designs that fall into that category. Some for stealth and others for other things. People like Kelly Johnson only comes along once in a lifetime.

Oh no, there were a lot of Kelly Johnsons out there. That's why aviation technology advanced so quickly.

 

[Weatherman2020]

The history of the F-4 with no cannon was over 50 years ago when air-to-air missiles weren't reliable, targeting was difficult, and pilot training to use them properly was lacking. I know it's brought up all the time as some great lesson that shouldn't be repeated but one could counter that history has shown the era of the gun for air-to-air combat is indeed dead. Consider:

1. When was the last gun kill by a US pilot? Probably an A-10 versus a helicopter, if you go back further than that things get fuzzy but by some accounts it was an F-8 Crusader during the Vietnam War. Meanwhile the pk has continued to rise as sensors and weapons improve generation to generation.

2. Missiles have improved dramatically since F-4s showed up rocking Sparrows. They don't require constant target illumination, they have much better terminal seekers, two-way data links, much better software algorithms for intercept that use ballistic trajectories, automatic HOJ mode, etc.

3. Missiles do work in close quarters. AIM-9X has lock after launch, can be cued by helmet, high off boresight capabilities, and is almost impossible to spoof because uses imaging infrared so it can tell the difference between a hot airplane and a flare. AAMs produced by other countries also have advanced along similar lines, and many believe with modern AAMs entering the merge is a death sentence for either pilot.

There is nothing wrong with having a gun on a plane, and yes a skilled pilot can still use a cannon to achieve air-to-air kills. However air combat has long been trending towards BVR engagements and missile kills for both BVR and WVR. At some point it becomes a reasonable choice to use your plane's space/weight for something more likely to be used.

Actually the F-4 was not given guns was because the designers incorrectly believed they were obsolete. They believed missiles were all you needed.

 

[Weatherman2020]

Yeah I know about the F-15SE, but talking about a potential aircraft that nobody has actually bought (has one even been built?) is a lot different than saying the F-15 is as stealthy as a J-20.

I'd still be interesting in knowing RCS of an F-15 versus other aircraft like Typhoon or Rafale, I'm a bit skeptical that a large fighter designed in the early 70s is in any way stealthier than most others.

Sometimes the designers get lucky. The GO 229 of WWII is remarkably stealthy, and the SR-71 is likewise an incredibly stealthy aircraft.

If you are talking about making it right the first time, there are many 1950s and 1960s designs that fall into that category. Some for stealth and others for other things. People like Kelly Johnson only comes along once in a lifetime.

Oh no, there were a lot of Kelly Johnsons out there. That's why aviation technology advanced so quickly.

Even today but now moving into space.

 

[Daryl Hunt]

The Chinese claim their F-20 is about 1.1

Where did they claim this? They have been very secretive about everything with J-20, I can't imagine them publicly releasing it's RCS.

AS for no one has ever built a F-15SE, it's not a new build, it's a Modification and it's been done at about 3.4 million a copy. Any E model can be made into a SE.

Yes, an F-15E could be upgraded to SE but has that ever happened for anything more than a technology demonstrator?

All the marketing for F-15SE has been for foreign sales of new build fighters, batches of F-15SEs built from scratch to the SE standard. Problem is they haven't had much success selling them. Saudi Arabia expressed interest but went with the F-15SA. Japan expressed interest but went with the F-35. South Korea was supposed to buy it but they are also going F-35.

Boeing eventually shelved the program because nobody was interested, and these days is promoting the F-15 Advanced which has the conformal fuel tanks (like F-15Es already have) along with upgraded avionics. The F-15 Advanced is what might eventually sell to Israel.

No, the F-15SE has only been flown and shown as a Tech Tester to show it off.

It's average RCS isn't that good. From the sides it's not much better than a F-15E or C or D. From the rear, it's a bit better. From the top it's about the same. Same for the bottom. But from the front it's been rated at an RCS of .05 or about the size of a basketball. But there is some new materials that can change that. But I don't know if that is going to be exported or not.

The F-22 has an RCS all around of about .00005 or about the size of a hummingbird. The Export version of the F-35A has a slightly worse RCS. But they are putting a new cover on the US A models in production for the US Version using the new Stealth Mesh that drops it down to about the size of a mosquito making the non export version the most stealthy bird in the sky outside of a real insect. That mesh could be added to almost any US bird to reduce it's RCS by quite a large margin. But I don't know if they are going to allow it to be exported. One would think that they would not.

This is just a guess. I imagine it's a special blend of Carbon/Carbon Fiber that if it follows the commercial Carbon/Carbon Fiber is as strong as stainless steel, as light as aluminum and as heat resistant as titanium. When it's blended for Stealth, you use it for almost the whole fuselage and most of the parts construction for a new brand of stealth fighter, bomber or even ship. Carbon Fiber is finding it's way into many different constructions these days and the Carbon/Carbon Fiber is something new that is finding it's way into Aerospace. The Mesh is finding it's way into the F-35A and I imagine it's finding it's way into the C model as well.

As for where do they get the figures for the J-20? You fly it, they can track it. And the Chinese have flown it. Just like the Russians gave the US a huge gift when they flew the SU-57 in Syria. Right after they were tracked, the worry on the SU-57 went completely away. They don't have nearly as much information on the J-20 yet but there is enough that the worry is going away on it where the F-35, F-22 and even the F-18 is slowly ceasing to worry about it as much. The more they fly it, the more information will be gleaned about it until it will have no secrets left.

 

[DrainBamage]

Actually the F-4 was not given guns was because the designers incorrectly believed they were obsolete. They believed missiles were all you needed.

Yep, that era with early versions of Sparrow was definitely not a time to remove guns from fighter aircraft.