Capitalism Saved The Miners

[JBeukema]

That's alright, Sallow. If we got into capitalism versus other systems and ideologies that embrace the capitalistic mode of production, such as the various schools of social democracy, social liberalism, libertarian socialism, democratic socialism, workplace democracy, or- god forbid- state capitalism, their heads would explode.

Then there's the difference between capitalism as a socio-economic system and capitalism as a stage of socio-economic development. They probably think America is still a capitalist society, despite the numerous socialist and progressive reforms in place, such as child labour and workplace safety laws.

 

[JBeukema]

I've had this discussion with a few conservatives at the work place. Surprisingly, they didn't really understand all that Capitalism entailed..and described their economic utopia as being a place where the gold standard was put into place, and barter the principle means of trade.

If there's a gold standard in place why would people revert to barter?

Not quite sure..perhaps you might ask the co-workers I was discussing this with.

But my take is that perhaps the concept that labor has no real value. It's only "things" that do. At least that was what I gleaned from my conversations.

see: labour power

 

[JBeukema]

If the trade is capitalism, how can capitalism have been born out of the trade?

You really think barter and trade didn't exist before the rise of the capitalist system?

I've had this discussion with a few conservatives at the work place. Surprisingly, they didn't really understand all that Capitalism entailed..and described their economic utopia as being a place where the gold standard was put into place, and barter the principle means of trade.

If there's a gold standard in place why would people revert to barter?

I engaged in barter only a few days ago: a soda for half a sandwich.

 

[Sallow]

But free markets never exist because capitalists destroy them as quickly as possible. A free and fair playing field is antithetical to capitalists and their ideological isms.

Capitalism is the pursuit of profits via capital accumulation by means of developing an uncapitalistic advantage.

Which is why free markets and capitalism have a half life measurable in months.

No sufficiently inspired capitalist would allow a free market to survive longer.

All of which describes just one of many reasons why you yourself claim that capitalism doesn't exist.

Bullshit.

And painting such a broad brush discounts the many contributions of capitalists to a civil society.

 

[Sallow]

Maybe you ought to read my post again, only this time read the word "privately".

I don't really know why you're trying to muddy the waters by adding governmental systems to the debate. Capitalism has nothing to do with government. There was capitalism long before governments were created.

I did..and it's still incorrect.

Trading value for value is not capitalism. It's barter. And no..it did not "exist" before governments were created. It absolutely depends on things such as courts (to enforce contracts) and banks (to establish a protocol value on something like money).

Trading value for value is not barter. We trade value for value to this day, but instead of limiting ourselves by barter we use a medium of exchange called dollars.

Sure it is.

And barter is a component of Capitalism. But it's not the beginning and end of it.

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

I did..and it's still incorrect.

Trading value for value is not capitalism. It's barter. And no..it did not "exist" before governments were created. It absolutely depends on things such as courts (to enforce contracts) and banks (to establish a protocol value on something like money).

Trading value for value is not barter. We trade value for value to this day, but instead of limiting ourselves by barter we use a medium of exchange called dollars.

Sure it is.

And barter is a component of Capitalism. But it's not the beginning and end of it.

We do not have a barter system in this day and age, and yet we trade value for value.

 

[Sallow]

Trading value for value is not barter. We trade value for value to this day, but instead of limiting ourselves by barter we use a medium of exchange called dollars.

Sure it is.

And barter is a component of Capitalism. But it's not the beginning and end of it.

We do not have a barter system in this day and age, and yet we trade value for value.

With all due respect..that's an aspect of barter. Like I pointed out..barter is part of Capitalism. Except with capitalism we set up a construct value that we can barter with.

Hope that adds some clarity.

 

[Paulie]

Glossary of Terms: Ca

Historical Development: Capitalism develops through various stages. Since capital is both a pre-condition and outcome of capitalism, a period of primitive accumulation marks the beginning of capitalism; this may involve outright theft and plunder, and in particular the creation of a class of people who no longer own any means of production – a proletariat.
By freeing the labour process from traditional forms and expanding labour cooperation through world trade, capitalism initiates a rapid transformation in the labour process and promotes the development of science and technology. Meanwhile, religion and kinship ties are continuously undermined. Capital is built up in a few countries at the expense of other countries which are used as sources of cheap labour and raw materials.
The competition between millions of small-scale producers which was characteristic of the early days of capitalism, leads to the concentration of capital in the hands of just a few as a more efficient means of production. At a certain point (the beginning of the 20th-century), the entire globe had been divided up between a few great powers. Thus begins the final stage in the development of capitalism, imperialism, characterised by the domination of the banks, the formation of large multi-national corporations, by war and revolution.
The free market that had been envisioned by Adam Smith was shown impossible by the late 19th and early 20th century, when monopolies dominated nations causing massive Economic collapses in the 1890s, a world production crisis during World War I, and the worldwide depression in the 1930s. Thereafter national, and later international, regulation of the capitalist marketplace became necessary (SEC, International Monetary Fund, the World Bank, etc.); while the growth of militarization remains a necessity to expend excess production. For example, the United States having overspent the Soviet Union in militarization, in the last decade of the 20th century continued to create wars throughout the world – Panama, Iraq, Bosnia, etc. – unleashing double and triple the firepower in all of World War II. After the incredible expenditure of vast munitions and weapons (over $300 billion per year), the subjugated and destroyed nations are then offered contracts and infiltrated by capitalist business for the process of "rebuilding".

The explanation from marxists.org!!!

This thread is done.

 

[Sallow]

Glossary of Terms: Ca

Historical Development: Capitalism develops through various stages. Since capital is both a pre-condition and outcome of capitalism, a period of primitive accumulation marks the beginning of capitalism; this may involve outright theft and plunder, and in particular the creation of a class of people who no longer own any means of production – a proletariat.
By freeing the labour process from traditional forms and expanding labour cooperation through world trade, capitalism initiates a rapid transformation in the labour process and promotes the development of science and technology. Meanwhile, religion and kinship ties are continuously undermined. Capital is built up in a few countries at the expense of other countries which are used as sources of cheap labour and raw materials.
The competition between millions of small-scale producers which was characteristic of the early days of capitalism, leads to the concentration of capital in the hands of just a few as a more efficient means of production. At a certain point (the beginning of the 20th-century), the entire globe had been divided up between a few great powers. Thus begins the final stage in the development of capitalism, imperialism, characterised by the domination of the banks, the formation of large multi-national corporations, by war and revolution.
The free market that had been envisioned by Adam Smith was shown impossible by the late 19th and early 20th century, when monopolies dominated nations causing massive Economic collapses in the 1890s, a world production crisis during World War I, and the worldwide depression in the 1930s. Thereafter national, and later international, regulation of the capitalist marketplace became necessary (SEC, International Monetary Fund, the World Bank, etc.); while the growth of militarization remains a necessity to expend excess production. For example, the United States having overspent the Soviet Union in militarization, in the last decade of the 20th century continued to create wars throughout the world – Panama, Iraq, Bosnia, etc. – unleashing double and triple the firepower in all of World War II. After the incredible expenditure of vast munitions and weapons (over $300 billion per year), the subjugated and destroyed nations are then offered contracts and infiltrated by capitalist business for the process of "rebuilding".

The explanation from marxists.org!!!

This thread is done.

Really? Why?

I enjoy when adversaries try to explain why their system is better.

I believe it's not. I am a raging liberal well regulated free market capitalist. I think marxism and communism are not a system that should be embraced.

But on the other hand..not knowing what the heck they are preaching..is ignorant. My take. Read everything. Study the implications. And make informed judgements.

 

[Paulie]

Sure it is.

And barter is a component of Capitalism. But it's not the beginning and end of it.

We do not have a barter system in this day and age, and yet we trade value for value.

With all due respect..that's an aspect of barter. Like I pointed out..barter is part of Capitalism. Except with capitalism we set up a construct value that we can barter with.

Hope that adds some clarity.

The whole idea behind capitalism, ultimately, is the trading of goods and services derived from privately owned means of production.

No one is saying it's the only part of the definition of capitalism. But there would be no capitalism without free trade.

Why are you trying to make it more complex than it really is for the purpose of this particular debate?

You can produce goods and services on the back of labor all day long, but if you don't trade them then there's no "capitalism" to speak of.

 

[Paulie]

I am a raging liberal well regulated free market capitalist.

We're never going to be able to have a reasoned discussion in this particular debate, because I happen to believe this very statement right here flies in the face of everything I know and believe about economics.

There's so many oxymorons in that statement that the entire thing literally cancels itself out.

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

Sure it is.

And barter is a component of Capitalism. But it's not the beginning and end of it.

We do not have a barter system in this day and age, and yet we trade value for value.

With all due respect..that's an aspect of barter. Like I pointed out..barter is part of Capitalism. Except with capitalism we set up a construct value that we can barter with.

Hope that adds some clarity.

So you're saying we "barter" our money for other goods. I suppose one could say that, but that's not barter as it's commonly understood. Barter is trading a good for a good, such as a pair of shoes for a bushel of apples or something along those lines. Once a medium of exchange is introduced, aka money, we no longer have a barter system.

 

[Big Fitz]

guns don't kill people, capitalism kills people.

Huh... capitalism kills people. Okay. Every form of government kills.

SOCIALISM...they kill their own... deliberately. That's the only thing that philosophy does well.

read the next posts, you will then maybe get why i posted what i posted.

Ah, my apologies. I understand now.

 

[psikeyhackr]

The laws of physics don't care about either party. They are just a charade to maintain the delusion of democracy.

Yeah, capitalists always want to claim the credit of technology for CAPITALISM. Capitalism is about controlling people economically and money can be a motivator for many people but money does not give people brains and imaginations. John D. Rockefellar had money but what did he ever invent? He had a fixation on accounting as a kid though.

This is just another example of the Capitalist Ego Trip.

Mandatory accounting might empower to many people by making them less economically vulnerable so the conservative capitalists are not particularly enthusiastic about that.

psik

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

The laws of physics don't care about either party. They are just a charade to maintain the delusion of democracy.

Yeah, capitalists always want to claim the credit of technology for CAPITALISM. Capitalism is about controlling people economically and money can be a motivator for many people but money does not give people brains and imaginations. John D. Rockefellar had money but what did he ever invent? He had a fixation on accounting as a kid though.

This is just another example of the Capitalist Ego Trip.

Mandatory accounting might empower to many people by making them less economically vulnerable so the conservative capitalists are not particularly enthusiastic about that.

psik

Capitalism can't control people. Government on the other hand...

 

[psikeyhackr]

Capitalism can't control people. Government on the other hand...

The government makes the private ownership of land possible and eliminates the need for the capitalist to pay for a private army. So if that capitalists control the government...

The Democratic Party just puts on a show pretending to be on the side of labor.

But the Capitalists, the Communists, the Socialists and the Labor Unions don't mention making SEVEN HUNDRED YEAR OLD double-entry accounting mandatory in the schools.

Fifth graders can learn accounting as well as collegians

psik

 

[JBeukema]

I enjoy when adversaries try to explain why their system is better.

Then don't ask the Marxists. Marx never actually said people should choose communism because it's better. He said that it was inescapable that the course of history would lead to communism.

I believe it's not. I am a raging liberal well regulated free market capitalist.

You sound more like a social democrat than a Liberal.

 

[JBeukema]

I am a raging liberal well regulated free market capitalist.

We're never going to be able to have a reasoned discussion in this particular debate, because I happen to believe this very statement right here flies in the face of everything I know and believe about economics.

There's so many oxymorons in that statement that the entire thing literally cancels itself out.

Everything you think you know is wrong.

He says he's a liberal capitalist who sees the need for good regulation.

Makes perfect sense if you're not an imbecile, even if 'social democrat' or 'progressive' might be more accurate.

 

[Big Fitz]

The government makes the private ownership of land possible

Property is an inalienable right. The government doesn't it make it possible. Any man can keep whatever he can possess if he is willing. Squatters prove that every day.

and eliminates the need for the capitalist to pay for a private army

The job of the government is to protect it's citizens from threats to their freedoms, foreign and domestic. It is the primary purpose of government and why everyone benefits from paying into it, and why it is one of the few purposes of government.

So if that capitalists control the government...

They will create an environment condusive to capitalism which is based on the concepts of free trade, personal innovation, individual freedom and rights.

The Democratic Party just puts on a show pretending to be on the side of labor.

This is true. Their interests, as always are their own. They just try to hide the fact that they are just as greedy and backstabbing as the rest of us and not altruistic goodie-goodies as they purport falsely to be.

But the Capitalists, the Communists, the Socialists and the Labor Unions don't mention making SEVEN HUNDRED YEAR OLD double-entry accounting mandatory in the schools.

The capitalists would love this. Why? Less training for them to do. Socialists don't give a fuck, nor do their cronies in the labor unions because they make special schools there for them and skim the cost they charge the workers who wish to be employed and they make their own private fiefdom.

Fifth graders can learn accounting as well as collegians

And should. It's fucking simple. Even I learned it. We'd breed in a generation, less than a group of people who would be a LOT smarter about politics and economics because they'd be less of suckers for bullshit artists that currently fill the halls.

 

[JBeukema]

Property is an inalienable right. The government doesn't it make it possible. Any man can keep whatever he can possess if he is willing. Squatters prove that every day.

Men with guns disprove that every day.

The job of the government is to protect it's citizens from threats to their freedoms, foreign and domestic. It is the primary purpose of government and why everyone benefits from paying into it, and why it is one of the few purposes of government.

The job of the government is whatever the People who form the Nation and create government say it is.

They will create an environment condusive to capitalism which is based on the concepts of free trade, personal innovation, individual freedom and rights.

Right... actually, Mussolini called it Fascism