bush's new book getting him into trouble (admitting to waterboarding)

[Sallow]

Japan was water boarding regular POW's, Legal Combatants. I don't support enhanced interrogation within the regular Military, as SOP, but I believe that there are circumstances where it is warranted, that is for the top of the chain of command to decide, and back up.

The Japanese were terrible to all prisoners. They performed live medical disections on the Chinese and beheaded Americans. And there are no circumstances where it's "warranted" to torture people. From reports that I have read, KSM gave all his useful information prior to being waterboarded. After waterboarding he started babbling about delusional nonsense.

Who was responsible for interrogating him? Military? CIA?

That matters..why?

And torture by proxy is unacceptable as well.

 

[rightwinger]

Absurd, but not unlike most academic POV.

When has any Civilization ever defined itself by the amount of abuse it is willing to stand?

Since the first time we had something called a civilization. That is what a civilization is, a definition of how we can and cannot respond to these abuses

So let's open up all the Prison's then. Rather than suffer abuses in Prisons, Society should just close them all down. Born Free, Live Free, Die Free.

I sense another song coming. Where is Samson?

Seriously, I think that we are far from knowing what justice is.

Our civilization defines that prison is an appropriate response to crimes. Up until George Bush it defined that torture was not an appropriate response

 

[rightwinger]

This is the argument I have been trying to forward, but evidently you are having just as little luck getting through that I was.

Moral Relativists that will be quite happy to argue that circumstances may justify an act of terrorism, find it impossible to embrase the concept that circumstances may justify water-boarding, etc.

It's a simple equation:

If it benefits America, it's bad. If it benefits America's enemies, it's excusable.

Hey you are the one claiming torture is as American as Apple Pie

I am merely standing up for American values

 

[JakeStarkey]

I suppose if Bush had been president during both WWII and during Iraq/A-stan you may have a point.

The OP is about water boarding terrorists. If you want to throw in as wild a red herring as WWII for the morons to chase, then I guess that's the best you have to support your weak arguement.

The fact is, the USA isn't expecting combatants in Iraq/A-stan to behave any better than our intelligence services, and never has: So your moral quid pro quo arguement fails.

The examples of WWII are not red herrings but instructive as to the OP. It cannot be limited, and tu quoque does apply here.

"instructive as to the OP?"

The OP is about waterboarding terrorists whose acts are independent of national (and therefore, international) norms = Apples

Japan was a nation that attacked the USA = Oranges

But, please, continue with your silly charade; it amuses me to see who chases it.

Syllogism is false because your major premise is false.

 

[JakeStarkey]

When Americans torture their enemies, they become as their enemies. I am not willing to accept that as a road for my children and grandchildren in the military. All four of them would resign their commissions before compromising their humanity. Their moral and ethical integraton would be validated by resignation. That is what many officers did during the Carter and Reagan presidencies.

Those of you who are saying that when the bad guys do it is bad, but when the good guys do it, it is good, you should be the guys to convert to Islam and move overseas to be among your own kind.

 

[daveman]

Moral Relativists that will be quite happy to argue that circumstances may justify an act of terrorism, find it impossible to embrase the concept that circumstances may justify water-boarding, etc.

It's a simple equation:

If it benefits America, it's bad. If it benefits America's enemies, it's excusable.

Hey you are the one claiming torture is as American as Apple Pie

I am merely standing up for American values

Oh? Is insisting we give precedence to the comfort of terrorists over national security an American value?

 

[rightwinger]

It's a simple equation:

If it benefits America, it's bad. If it benefits America's enemies, it's excusable.

Hey you are the one claiming torture is as American as Apple Pie

I am merely standing up for American values

Oh? Is insisting we give precedence to the comfort of terrorists over national security an American value?

Torture is not an American value

 

[Samson]

Hey you are the one claiming torture is as American as Apple Pie

I am merely standing up for American values

Oh? Is insisting we give precedence to the comfort of terrorists over national security an American value?

Torture is not an American value

Apparently, naivete is an American value, or at least, a rightwinger value.

 

[JakeStarkey]

I thought it was a leftwinger quality! Oh, well: learn something every day.

 

[Samson]

I thought it was a leftwinger quality! Oh, well: learn something every day.

I imagine there's quite a bit of room for additional learning.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Indeed! I love to learn. If one is not learning new things daily, one is dead inside.

 

[Samson]

Indeed! I love to learn. If one is not learning new things daily, one is dead inside.

Don't complain about all the octopron in your inbox.

 

[JakeStarkey]

I don't care about the octopus, samson, for such was a favorite dish for me in Korea and Japan.

It's the poor women that are being savaged by the tentacled suckers that make me shudder for them (the women, not the octopus).

 

[Samson]

I don't care about the octopus, samson, for such was a favorite dish for me in Korea and Japan.

It's the poor women that are being savaged by the tentacled suckers that make me shudder for them (the women, not the octopus).

You need to learn to appreciate Art: The contrast between the beauty of the female and the ugliness of the octopus is a pictorial Beauty and the Beast, Phantom of the Opera.

 

[daveman]

Hey you are the one claiming torture is as American as Apple Pie

I am merely standing up for American values

Oh? Is insisting we give precedence to the comfort of terrorists over national security an American value?

Torture is not an American value

Good thing we don't do it.

 

[daveman]

Oh? Is insisting we give precedence to the comfort of terrorists over national security an American value?

Torture is not an American value

Apparently, naivete is an American value, or at least, a rightwinger value.

Yes, it's not at all as insightful and cogent as "If we're nice to them, they'll be nice to us!!"

 

[Samson]

Torture is not an American value

Apparently, naivete is an American value, or at least, a rightwinger value.

Yes, it's not at all as insightful and cogent as "If we're nice to them, they'll be nice to us!!"

The population of pointy-headed academics that have never ventured past their ivory walls is always larger than those that protect them ever imagine.

 

[daveman]

Apparently, naivete is an American value, or at least, a rightwinger value.

Yes, it's not at all as insightful and cogent as "If we're nice to them, they'll be nice to us!!"

The population of pointy-headed academics that have never ventured past their ivory walls is always larger than those that protect them ever imagine.

Oh, I expect it's pretty large. SOMEbody's gotta be pushing this crap into enough empty heads so it gets repeated as much as it does.

Note to unicorn-believers: You can't negotiate with anyone who wants nothing less than to stand over your corpse.

 

[maineman]

torture is against the supreme law of the land. If that is something that bothers the right, they should attempt to abrogate our signing of the UN Treaty regarding torture and inhumane treatment. Until we DO abrogate it, it is international law and it is OUR law and we ought to follow it or abandon this pretense of being a country of laws.

 

[rightwinger]

Oh? Is insisting we give precedence to the comfort of terrorists over national security an American value?

Torture is not an American value

Good thing we don't do it.

But you just spent 28 pages of this thread defending our right to torture