Bush TAX Cut Extensions Will Increase Deficit

[antagon]

The US admits one million immigrants legally every year. Isn't that enough?

any number is enough. 0-300 million, whatever.

Toro is remarking on the globalization economy in which every country should want to brain drain their nation state rivals. Call it intellectual mercantilism.

If we are gonna adhere to globalization, and I hope we don't, but if we do, he is clearly right. We should seal the borders tight as a drum and apply strict standards for entry. As strict as we can get away with. But stream line admittance for the most qualified.

The number doesn't matter. Israel accepts anybody at all who can attest to Jewish lineage because they want the best brain trust that can be secured.

What might only be a modest advantage now becomes a very significant advantage two gens later.

Opening the borders to anybody who dares cross from a third world nation is a kind of economic suicide.

antagon prescribes charging ~$5k per visa, renewable annually with a mandatory 3 year visa status prior to paying another $5k for a citizenship. this will help to filter for economically active immigrants or those whose employers will sponsor them. it will fund our public sector based on those who are hoping to exploit it - an emerging trend in taxation of which i approve. it could provide for lower tax rates to be sustained for the rest of us, and potentially fund some of my other tricks.

 

[Samson]

antagon prescribes charging ~$5k per visa, .... it could provide for lower tax rates to be sustained for the rest of us, and potentially fund some of my other tricks.

Samson perscribes digging a mile-wide canal from Brownsville, TX to the Sea of Cortez using illegal alien labor.

 

[SFC Ollie]

Now I'm not any economist or all that super with high financing. But I seem to recall hearing how those who have the money to make the investments that would lead to job growth aren't investing because they don't know what Obama's policies are going to do to them.

Made sense to me.

It wasn't true tho. They are hoarding for the same basic reason that households are hoarding. It helps their bottom line at a time when expansion is a huge gamble.

Cut inventory, cut staff, cut overhead and increase profits. That's what nearly every business in the US is doing. The rest are edging toward insolvency.

not all businesses are the same, but i claim none of the above from my personal perspective. to SFC Ollie, i dont think about 2012 when hiring for today's needs. i believe that a business which considers labor decisions that far in advance is setting themselves up for disaster and are incompetent. that is my biggest criticism of the relationship forced between UAW and the big US makers. they have an estimate of how many 2015 corvettes they plan to make and have locked in a contract with their labor. what you have heard is a political device which someone hoped would appeal to people who dont run businesses themselves.

to cannon, what you contend sits a bit closer to home except that i'd say the hoarding phase is at the approach to the peak of the economic cycle. i think that the market is full of keen business people who do indeed anticipate an end to prosperous ROI and hunker down as i had prior to the shit hitting the fan. this means that rather than hiring a bunch of new guys in the 3 quarters leading up to the anticipated bust, i had extended overtime and done what i could to take profit while it was out there. what seems inaccurate about calling the current period a profit-taking time is that the profits per-cent and overall are lower for me and many other business owners. now is a time of riding out lower returns on investment and taking advantage of devalued assets and capital floating around the market. the reason why labor is not a good buy is because the demand is not there and an underutilized force makes you want to lay some guys off for a while rather than hire any more.

i could care less about obama when it comes to these sorts of things, and rather than hoarding, it is a matter of hibernation for many businesses. exploitation for those with the balls and the dosh to take advantage.

Actually I was the General manager of a small Business that did over $500,000 in sales annually. And for 2 years I ran the business while the owner played in Florida. We went from 3 crews to 5 crews during that 2 years and we did it with company money. And yes I was looking at several years into the future at the time. Shame the owner came back and destroyed the company (crack can do that to a person). He now has one crew and he has to go out as the on site supervisor.

 

[Samson]

You mean "Bush Tax Cuts"?

The answer is still for the gubamint to reduce spending. The average Joe gets a smaller paycheck he reduces spending, gubamint can do the same. I'm tired of hearing bullshit excuses from our gubamint about "we have to PAY for tax cuts!"

Bullshit! You just have to spend less.

Does that mean you would oppose any deficit-financed extensions of (any of) the tax cuts? That is, any bill to extend the tax cuts that doesn't include offsetting spending cuts?

I'd go one or two steps further: There will be no tax cut unless there is 3X offsetting spending cuts.

 

[asterism]

It wasn't true tho. They are hoarding for the same basic reason that households are hoarding. It helps their bottom line at a time when expansion is a huge gamble.

Cut inventory, cut staff, cut overhead and increase profits. That's what nearly every business in the US is doing. The rest are edging toward insolvency.

not all businesses are the same, but i claim none of the above from my personal perspective. to SFC Ollie, i dont think about 2012 when hiring for today's needs. i believe that a business which considers labor decisions that far in advance is setting themselves up for disaster and are incompetent. that is my biggest criticism of the relationship forced between UAW and the big US makers. they have an estimate of how many 2015 corvettes they plan to make and have locked in a contract with their labor. what you have heard is a political device which someone hoped would appeal to people who dont run businesses themselves.

to cannon, what you contend sits a bit closer to home except that i'd say the hoarding phase is at the approach to the peak of the economic cycle. i think that the market is full of keen business people who do indeed anticipate an end to prosperous ROI and hunker down as i had prior to the shit hitting the fan. this means that rather than hiring a bunch of new guys in the 3 quarters leading up to the anticipated bust, i had extended overtime and done what i could to take profit while it was out there. what seems inaccurate about calling the current period a profit-taking time is that the profits per-cent and overall are lower for me and many other business owners. now is a time of riding out lower returns on investment and taking advantage of devalued assets and capital floating around the market. the reason why labor is not a good buy is because the demand is not there and an underutilized force makes you want to lay some guys off for a while rather than hire any more.

i could care less about obama when it comes to these sorts of things, and rather than hoarding, it is a matter of hibernation for many businesses. exploitation for those with the balls and the dosh to take advantage.

Actually I was the General manager of a small Business that did over $500,000 in sales annually. And for 2 years I ran the business while the owner played in Florida. We went from 3 crews to 5 crews during that 2 years and we did it with company money. And yes I was looking at several years into the future at the time. Shame the owner came back and destroyed the company (crack can do that to a person). He now has one crew and he has to go out as the on site supervisor.

What sort of business can support a GM, at least 10 other employees and an absentee owner on $500K per year? The payroll alone had to be $250K.

 

[SFC Ollie]

not all businesses are the same, but i claim none of the above from my personal perspective. to SFC Ollie, i dont think about 2012 when hiring for today's needs. i believe that a business which considers labor decisions that far in advance is setting themselves up for disaster and are incompetent. that is my biggest criticism of the relationship forced between UAW and the big US makers. they have an estimate of how many 2015 corvettes they plan to make and have locked in a contract with their labor. what you have heard is a political device which someone hoped would appeal to people who dont run businesses themselves.

to cannon, what you contend sits a bit closer to home except that i'd say the hoarding phase is at the approach to the peak of the economic cycle. i think that the market is full of keen business people who do indeed anticipate an end to prosperous ROI and hunker down as i had prior to the shit hitting the fan. this means that rather than hiring a bunch of new guys in the 3 quarters leading up to the anticipated bust, i had extended overtime and done what i could to take profit while it was out there. what seems inaccurate about calling the current period a profit-taking time is that the profits per-cent and overall are lower for me and many other business owners. now is a time of riding out lower returns on investment and taking advantage of devalued assets and capital floating around the market. the reason why labor is not a good buy is because the demand is not there and an underutilized force makes you want to lay some guys off for a while rather than hire any more.

i could care less about obama when it comes to these sorts of things, and rather than hoarding, it is a matter of hibernation for many businesses. exploitation for those with the balls and the dosh to take advantage.

Actually I was the General manager of a small Business that did over $500,000 in sales annually. And for 2 years I ran the business while the owner played in Florida. We went from 3 crews to 5 crews during that 2 years and we did it with company money. And yes I was looking at several years into the future at the time. Shame the owner came back and destroyed the company (crack can do that to a person). He now has one crew and he has to go out as the on site supervisor.

What sort of business can support a GM, at least 10 other employees and an absentee owner on $500K per year? The payroll alone had to be $250K.

First I hope you aren't doubting me. And I did say over $500,000. And it was a home improvement company, Gutters, siding, roofing, windows, basically everything outside the home. The last year I was there we did close to one million in sales. But the point is that if I and the owner had thought there was going to be a problem with taxes or health benefits or anything like that we would have waited to expand, at least long enough to know how it was going to affect us.

 

[loosecannon]

Now I'm not any economist or all that super with high financing. But I seem to recall hearing how those who have the money to make the investments that would lead to job growth aren't investing because they don't know what Obama's policies are going to do to them.

Made sense to me.

It wasn't true tho. They are hoarding for the same basic reason that households are hoarding. It helps their bottom line at a time when expansion is a huge gamble.

Cut inventory, cut staff, cut overhead and increase profits. That's what nearly every business in the US is doing. The rest are edging toward insolvency.

not all businesses are the same, but i claim none of the above from my personal perspective. to SFC Ollie, i dont think about 2012 when hiring for today's needs. i believe that a business which considers labor decisions that far in advance is setting themselves up for disaster and are incompetent. that is my biggest criticism of the relationship forced between UAW and the big US makers. they have an estimate of how many 2015 corvettes they plan to make and have locked in a contract with their labor. what you have heard is a political device which someone hoped would appeal to people who dont run businesses themselves.

to cannon, what you contend sits a bit closer to home except that i'd say the hoarding phase is at the approach to the peak of the economic cycle. i think that the market is full of keen business people who do indeed anticipate an end to prosperous ROI and hunker down as i had prior to the shit hitting the fan. this means that rather than hiring a bunch of new guys in the 3 quarters leading up to the anticipated bust, i had extended overtime and done what i could to take profit while it was out there. what seems inaccurate about calling the current period a profit-taking time is that the profits per-cent and overall are lower for me and many other business owners. now is a time of riding out lower returns on investment and taking advantage of devalued assets and capital floating around the market. the reason why labor is not a good buy is because the demand is not there and an underutilized force makes you want to lay some guys off for a while rather than hire any more.

i could care less about obama when it comes to these sorts of things, and rather than hoarding, it is a matter of hibernation for many businesses. exploitation for those with the balls and the dosh to take advantage.

It seems to me as if most businesses kept momentum going as long as possible as the economy bubbled in 2008, then responded by cutting back on as many costs as possible as the economy contracted. Many businesses did report improved profits as a result, tho I have no idea whether that represents a majority.

In either case nearly everybody needed to and still needs to deleverage and reduce their profile to better match the new level of demand, whatever that is.

Expansion is out of the question for most businesses until demand, demands it. This is a hibernation like you say, but also a time of consolidation and mergers and acquisitions if you are properly positioned for them, as Buffet is.

Buffet has remarkable confidence in our long term prospects, so he sees opportunity in adversity.

 

[loosecannon]

antagon prescribes charging ~$5k per visa, .... it could provide for lower tax rates to be sustained for the rest of us, and potentially fund some of my other tricks.

Samson perscribes digging a mile-wide canal from Brownsville, TX to the Sea of Cortez using illegal alien labor.

crocodiles!

 

[antagon]

It wasn't true tho. They are hoarding for the same basic reason that households are hoarding. It helps their bottom line at a time when expansion is a huge gamble.

Cut inventory, cut staff, cut overhead and increase profits. That's what nearly every business in the US is doing. The rest are edging toward insolvency.

not all businesses are the same, but i claim none of the above from my personal perspective. to SFC Ollie, i dont think about 2012 when hiring for today's needs. i believe that a business which considers labor decisions that far in advance is setting themselves up for disaster and are incompetent. that is my biggest criticism of the relationship forced between UAW and the big US makers. they have an estimate of how many 2015 corvettes they plan to make and have locked in a contract with their labor. what you have heard is a political device which someone hoped would appeal to people who dont run businesses themselves.

to cannon, what you contend sits a bit closer to home except that i'd say the hoarding phase is at the approach to the peak of the economic cycle. i think that the market is full of keen business people who do indeed anticipate an end to prosperous ROI and hunker down as i had prior to the shit hitting the fan. this means that rather than hiring a bunch of new guys in the 3 quarters leading up to the anticipated bust, i had extended overtime and done what i could to take profit while it was out there. what seems inaccurate about calling the current period a profit-taking time is that the profits per-cent and overall are lower for me and many other business owners. now is a time of riding out lower returns on investment and taking advantage of devalued assets and capital floating around the market. the reason why labor is not a good buy is because the demand is not there and an underutilized force makes you want to lay some guys off for a while rather than hire any more.

i could care less about obama when it comes to these sorts of things, and rather than hoarding, it is a matter of hibernation for many businesses. exploitation for those with the balls and the dosh to take advantage.

It seems to me as if most businesses kept momentum going as long as possible as the economy bubbled in 2008, then responded by cutting back on as many costs as possible as the economy contracted. Many businesses did report improved profits as a result, tho I have no idea whether that represents a majority.

In either case nearly everybody needed to and still needs to deleverage and reduce their profile to better match the new level of demand, whatever that is.

Expansion is out of the question for most businesses until demand, demands it. This is a hibernation like you say, but also a time of consolidation and mergers and acquisitions if you are properly positioned for them, as Buffet is.

Buffet has remarkable confidence in our long term prospects, so he sees opportunity in adversity.

definitely opportunity in adversity... particularly through diversification or exploiting devalued assets and capital.

as for the businesses who wave flags with their profit margins, i say congratulations, but i've got a disdain for the priorities forced by publicly offering businesses. i smell deleterious overinvestment in labor and assets with the aim of attracting spooked money when the shit hits the fan, and they trim back. only public firms carry on like this. the rest of us have nobody to impress but ourselves.

 

[CrusaderFrank]

This all assumes a static view of the economy which is false. Does anyone know of a projection made by the CBO that came true?

Very true, with the economy continuing to sink it will be worse than predictions.

Wow -first of all the assumption this graph is reliable and accurate is pure bullshit. This hasn't been a reliable source for years now. Clearly this graph was made with heavily filtered data and one of the most glaring omissions is ANY consideration for the known NEGATIVE consequences for raising taxes during a bad economy and high unemployment. This graph assumes there is NONE. At all. As if it would only result in increasing government wealth. Except that ISN'T HOW IT WORKS! Liberals in particular have such a hard time with reality and seem to think if they insist otherwise long enough, eventually reality will come around to be what they want it to be. They don't deal with what reality IS -they deal with what they wish it was. And that mentality has been proven time and again and in many countries to often result in the exact opposite of their stated goals and only increase human misery. But hey, since they always claim to have such "pure and noble" goals, that should count for WAY more than the level of misery they have inflicted on everyone, right?

So with a bad economy and high unemployment and a report out just TODAY showing that Americans suffered a LOSS in income the past year which is a BIG DEAL in case you didn't know that -you liberal bozos think the answer is to hit them up with higher taxes too? Because only NOW are liberals concerned about the deficit? And obviously FAR more concerned about that than the fact 1 in 10 people can't find a job anymore, right? The very same people who insisted government putting this nation into MASSIVELY more debt and sticking generations not even born yet with the bill was fine and dandy with them THEN are now "concerned" about the deficit? No inconsistency that liberals whined about the deficit under Bush -when the increase was in line with the rate Clinton had until Obama pushed him to sign off on the phony stimulus bill even before his Inauguration (and which most members of both parties supported at the time in case you forget) - were dead silent when Democrats continued on after Obama's Inauguration to massively increase the deficit by 25% in just ONE YEAR. AND will result in the US owing more than all the world's existing currency COMBINED in less than ten years. Thanks to DEMOCRATS indulging in their wet dream spending spree. But NOW when its obvious Republicans are going to win the majority in at least the House, NOW they are going to SUDDENLY be concerned about the deficit? Like the rest of us can't see what REALLY changed for you here, right? ROFL Get real. If Democrats are in control of spending it we all know you have no problem with spending until the US is the greatest debtor nation on the planet and we ALL KNOW IT. Because that is EXACTLY what would have happened if Democrats kept control! And it may still since the best we can hope for with a division of power is for obstructionism to just stop Obama and Democrats from continuing on this path at this rate.

Let me point out just a couple of the fallacious assumptions made by the MORONS who made this graph. I shouldn't call them that since they are REQUIRED to make their reports using ONLY the data given to them. They are specifically forbidden to use anything else but that data -so if the data given makes no inclusion for possible unintended or unwanted consequences, their "reports" are going to be BULLSHIT. Which is why they haven't been anywhere close to accurate for a long time now. Politicians figured out how to manipulate the "nonpartisan" group -by selective filtering of the data they are given and required to ONLY use. Even when those making the calculations know vital data is missing, they can't do anything about it and are stuck using ONLY the data given to them. Data that is left out, even if they know for a fact is relevant data -MUST be ignored anyway. Their hands are figuratively tied -by POLITICIANS so they cannot make an accurate prediction -which is why they are usually WAY off the mark. Remember how accurate they were about the impact of Obamacare "saving" money and even decreasing the deficit and lowering the cost of health care? Democrats filtered the information they were given to FORCE the answer they wanted at that time, KNOWING they were manipulating the results and producing a LIE. Not until it was rammed down our throats against our will were they allowed to use the FULL information and then OOPS. Turns out their first report was the exact opposite of reality! What a shocker, huh? Wow no one saw that coming. Only AFTER it was a done deal and the odds against the ability of WE THE PEOPLE to get it rescinded can people be told the TRUTH -that Obamacare will (and already has) make health care MORE expensive and at an even FASTER rate than without it, will INCREASE the deficit and for kickers -will result in the loss of another 800,000 jobs over ten years in the process. Just like those wicked, bad, evil Republicans kept insisting all along. Probably because Republicans have the critical thinking skills to figure out the lessons of history -and liberals don't.

If they are predicting the deficit will increase even more unless taxes are raised, it means the information they were given was again heavily filtered for the specific purpose of getting back a specific desired "answer". It means they included the fact your elected MORONIC Congressional representatives spent money the government didn't have before and still doesn't have. Its like complaining to your boss that you were counting on a raise this year and had already spent it all -so now that you didn't get it, you have to borrow money to cover the additional money you spent that you never had in the first place and still don't. The amount of money you got never changed. What changed was YOUR spending habits. And THAT is what has changed here. Our government went HOG WILD OUT OF CONTROL with spending money it didn't have in the first place -and still doesn't. Tax cuts didn't cause the deficit in the first place -OUT OF CONTROL SPENDING DID! Your elected representatives are worse than teenagers with daddy's credit card -but now want to be rewarded for it by not just getting re-elected for the shit screw job they just did on us all (which just boggles my mind frankly), but telling you to STFU and how you should be HAPPY and just overflowing with all that warm, gooey "patriotic" feelings you would naturally want to just pony up to pay for their out of control spending spree. STUPID Democrats refuse to believe that raising taxes will result in even less government revenue -but history has proven this to be true so many times you have to be a fucking moron not to know it. We are already (and have been) above that point where raising taxes will increase revenues without negatively impacting the economy and employment rates. That means any tax hike WILL result in higher unemployment and that means fewer people working and that means fewer people even paying federal income taxes and that means LESS government revenue. Not more.

THIS is why they all need to be thrown out of office -they go hog wild irresponsible spending money they never had in the first place and still don't while people were screaming at them to STOP and then insist it isn't their spending they need to get under control -but how much MORE they can try to confiscate from the half who even pay federal income taxes? Hey if you don't pay federal income taxes anyway then the fact they were spending nonexistent taxpayer money wouldn't bother you much at all, would it? While of course they ALWAYS run for election by insisting the half being parasited upon still haven't opened their veins wide enough for the other half to better suck them dry.

This graph is pure BULLSHIT. What will REALLY happen if taxes are raised -and if these tax cuts are allowed to expire, it IS a tax hike -is it will result in HIGHER UNEMPLOYMENT. Raising taxes ALWAYS raises unemployment because we are already above the rate where it would not and any further tax hikes will raise taxes on small businesses too. Those businesses existing on the margin will go under -taking all the jobs with it. That means FEWER people even paying federal income taxes than before which more than offsets the additional money produced by the higher rate -and TADA -government ends up with LESS revenue than without the tax hike. It is compounded by the fact it results in businesses not only not hiring, but they pass on the tax hikes to consumers so that everything we buy costs more at the same time unemployment is high -which hurts REAL PEOPLE, not imaginary ones. And that isn't even taking into account the negative impact it has on decreasing the rate at which new businesses are even created -which means a more enduring unemployment. Kind of like we already have now -you lose your job now, and your odds of finding another at all much less one close to equal value is way down. And any business that does international business has been put at a greater disadvantage, making it more difficult for them to compete and increases their odds of shrinking and shedding jobs - and eventually going under if it lasts long enough.

THAT is historical FACT -and the fact they came up with this bullshit bogus graph showing the opposite is PROOF positive they were working with heavily filtered data that did not include some of the most important and relevant data. Raising taxes, especially in a bad economy -produces higher revenues for a brief period only -then revenues take a nosedive as unemployment goes higher. And in a bad economy where unemployment is already high, raising taxes can and has resulted in throwing the economy into a recession or turning a recession into a depression. Do you REALLY need to see that happen again before you can come to grips with the reality of tax hikes and its effects on the economy and employment? There really is a reason unemployment most of Bush's 8 years was around 5% even though he was handed a recession - and why in spite of Obama claiming a spending spree would mean it wouldn't get above 8% unemployment is now stuck at around 10% with no end in sight.

Bush had an education AND experience seeing firsthand what does and does not work in creating a successful business. Obama is a FUCKING LAWYER who never held a real job in his life and neither has anyone in his administration. When it comes to talking about the economy, business and WHO CREATES JOBS -never forget, its the lawyers who are FAKING IT. Obama is a fake who relied upon an economic theory that was already an historically PROVEN FAILURE. But since he is a leftwing extremist, it happens to be one he thinks would be real nice if it were reality. See paragraph one about reality and liberals.

The crux of the problem is that Progressives think that the federal government IS the US economy