'Bullying' in the NFL?

[KevinWestern]

I found this info from Yahoo! Sports; it's 'the average Wonderlic score by position' in the NFL. If you have other data please bring it forward as I'm not an expert in this subject.

Not shockingly, QBs/Centers are generally above average in intelligence, however MANY of the players do indeed fall in the "below average intelligence" category.

There - [MENTION=31918]Unkotare[/MENTION]. Perhaps this will allow us to make a more 'accurate generalization'.

Average Wonderlic Score (score of 20 = 100 IQ)

QB/Center: 24-25
Guard: 21
Safety/Linebacker: 19
Corner back: 18
Wide Receiver / Fullback: 17
Halfback: 16

 

[manifold]

Too bad you never received enough education to understand basic logic, towel-boy.

kettle, black

No, idiot. If someone (like you) makes a claim, it is up to that person (like you) to support or withdraw that claim. Calling bullshit on the claim leaves the onus on the person (like you) who made the claim. Are you really this stupid?

No, but apparently you are.

We both made generalizations trackster, but for some reason you want to give yourself a pass for it while at the same time crawling up my ass about it.

If you're not stupid, then you're a hypocrite.

 

[KevinWestern]

I will add too that most players would do some preparation before the Wonderlic test (as it's semi-important), skewing their scores artificially higher than they should be.

I would imagine a "wonderlic" test is designed to be taken with zero preparation in order to get a "true reading".

 

[Decus]

It has been claimed that Martin was bullied into paying for a trip he did not attend. But what if this proves to be true?:

"Importantly, Murtha clarified the alleged "extortion" of $15,000 from Jon Martin that has been reported previously. Previous reports said Martin was pressured into paying for a Las Vegas trip Martin himself did not attend. That sounds terrible, right?"

"According to Murtha, that report is accurate but incomplete. Martin had promised he would attend the trip, which was paid in advance. Martin then backed out at the last minute, not due to illness or family emergency, but because he no longer felt like going. The players who helped organize the trip, including Incognito, demanded Martin still pay his share because everything was pre-paid, and there were no refunds available."

"Obviously, IF this version of the story is true, the Vegas trip being partially paid for by Martin no longer qualifies as an example of bullying - I've done the exact same thing to a very good friend of mine in a similar situation. It's not bullying to expect friends to keep their word. This could be an example of a story sounding much worse than it is in reality because of a key detail missing - in this case, Martin allegedly promising to go on the trip, which was pre-paid."

www.thephinsider.com/2013/11/7/5076...in-storyichie-incognito-jonathan-martin-story

It's sounding more and more like Martin is altering the facts to set up a lawsuit that will provide him with a big payoff. This could open the door for other guys that couldn't make it at the pro level - if you can't play at the NFL level find an excuse, blame it on the team and sue the hell out of everybody until you get the money.

 

[Unkotare]

We both made generalizations trackster.

No, I just called you on your generalization, idiot.

 

[Callas_Dowboys]

No offense but you're so far off on basically all of your statements that I can only assume you don't actually follow sports at all. Almost everything you've said is flat out wrong and can be debunked by just picking up the sports page of your local newspaper.

The NCAA specifically mandates minimal high school GPA, SAT, etc. scores for incoming athletes and none of them are especially low. Many of the top athletic programs in the country come from some of the best colleges that refuse to lower their standards for admissions. Throwing a football won't get you into Stanford any more than shooting a basketball will get you into Duke. More importantly, athletes are suspended, dismissed from their teams, or expelled from their schools altogether ALL THE TIME for not showing up to class or failing to maintain their grades. You don't get any more higher profile in college sports than starting quarterback for Notre Dame in the National Championship Game but Golson Everett is not playing this season because of his grades.

"Brains" is very important to teams which is why the NFL specifically gives an IQ test and arguably the single worst thing you can do to affect your draft position is tank that exam.

Thanks for the response and you bring up good points. Again, I'm not making the claim that NFL players are morons – totally not my intention.

But think of it this way (and correct me if you think I’m wrong); if you were to compare a group of people who worked their way up from scratch to make a salary equivalent to that of an NFL player in the business world, would you expect those folks to have a higher average IQ than that of an average NFL player who earns his money for “being really fast and good at tackling people”?

Sure, Notre Dame might suspend a QB for grades but I’m sure you’re well aware that Notre Dame puts a greater emphasis on academics (for their athletes) than most of the other Division 1 schools. Are you telling me that the best running back in the country wouldn’t make it into the NFL because “his IQ is low”? If he’s going to win games, an NFL team will pick him up (so long as he’s not a criminal, rude, etc).

Throwing a football might not get you into Stanford, but the point is if you’re good enough YOU WILL get into a Division 1 school and if you win games you will get into the NFL.

You are wrong.

It might make us regular guys feel better to insist Tom Brady must be a dummy because he's good looking, supremely talented, rich, famous, and married to the most successful model on the planet but there is no correlation between athleticism and intelligence anymore than penis size and intelligence.

Almost everyone succeeding and winning games in college WILL NOT play in the NFL. You're really underestimating what an elite group these teams are. Also, there isn't a tremendous amount of physical difference between NFL superstars and guys on the practice squad. Most of the time the practice squad guys are more athletic too. Those guys are able to get by on their athleticism in college where the level of competition isn't as steep. There is a reason teams invest so much money in evaluating a player's intelligence. The decisions made in a football game might seem trivial to you but you need to consider the speed at which they're making these decisions. Being able to pick up on the pass rush, find a receiver down field, and put yourself into a position to get the ball there faster then everyone else is a tremendous advantage.

You don't have to be a genius athlete to get into college but then again you don't have to be a genius to get into college to begin with. There are plenty of dumb people who go to bad schools, irrelevant of if they can throw a football. The NCAA holds student athletes to a very tough standard and many schools hold their athletes to higher standards.

 

[KevinWestern]

No offense but you're so far off on basically all of your statements that I can only assume you don't actually follow sports at all. Almost everything you've said is flat out wrong and can be debunked by just picking up the sports page of your local newspaper.

The NCAA specifically mandates minimal high school GPA, SAT, etc. scores for incoming athletes and none of them are especially low. Many of the top athletic programs in the country come from some of the best colleges that refuse to lower their standards for admissions. Throwing a football won't get you into Stanford any more than shooting a basketball will get you into Duke. More importantly, athletes are suspended, dismissed from their teams, or expelled from their schools altogether ALL THE TIME for not showing up to class or failing to maintain their grades. You don't get any more higher profile in college sports than starting quarterback for Notre Dame in the National Championship Game but Golson Everett is not playing this season because of his grades.

"Brains" is very important to teams which is why the NFL specifically gives an IQ test and arguably the single worst thing you can do to affect your draft position is tank that exam.

Thanks for the response and you bring up good points. Again, I'm not making the claim that NFL players are morons – totally not my intention.

But think of it this way (and correct me if you think I’m wrong); if you were to compare a group of people who worked their way up from scratch to make a salary equivalent to that of an NFL player in the business world, would you expect those folks to have a higher average IQ than that of an average NFL player who earns his money for “being really fast and good at tackling people”?

Sure, Notre Dame might suspend a QB for grades but I’m sure you’re well aware that Notre Dame puts a greater emphasis on academics (for their athletes) than most of the other Division 1 schools. Are you telling me that the best running back in the country wouldn’t make it into the NFL because “his IQ is low”? If he’s going to win games, an NFL team will pick him up (so long as he’s not a criminal, rude, etc).

Throwing a football might not get you into Stanford, but the point is if you’re good enough YOU WILL get into a Division 1 school and if you win games you will get into the NFL.

You are wrong.

It might make us regular guys feel better to insist Tom Brady must be a dummy because he's good looking, supremely talented, rich, famous, and married to the most successful model on the planet but there is no correlation between athleticism and intelligence anymore than penis size and intelligence.

Almost everyone succeeding and winning games in college WILL NOT play in the NFL. You're really underestimating what an elite group these teams are. Also, there isn't a tremendous amount of physical difference between NFL superstars and guys on the practice squad. Most of the time the practice squad guys are more athletic too. Those guys are able to get by on their athleticism in college where the level of competition isn't as steep. There is a reason teams invest so much money in evaluating a player's intelligence.

So, posted this earlier but according to Yahoo! Sports (which obviously isn’t the authority of everything and could be wrong) these are the historical average Wonderlic scores for NFL players by position. QBs/Centers are historically very smart (Tom Brady), Guards average, and RBs, WRs, FBs, HBs, etc are all below your average intelligence levels.

And on top of it, I'm sure most of these guys do some extensive preparation before taking the test, so if anything I'd say they skew slightly high.

Do you think these numbers are incorrect? Personally, I think these support my argument more than they do yours but I'm open for discussion.


Average Wonderlic Score (score of 20 = 100 IQ)

QB/Center: 24-25
Guard: 21
Safety/Linebacker: 19
Corner back: 18
Wide Receiver / Fullback: 17
Halfback: 16

 

[Callas_Dowboys]

Players are covering their ass.

Why?

Their reputation, lawsuits?

Lawsuits from what? It's not like Martin is going to sue Incognito for saying he was going to fuck his mom.

 

[Callas_Dowboys]

Thanks for the response and you bring up good points. Again, I'm not making the claim that NFL players are morons – totally not my intention.

But think of it this way (and correct me if you think I’m wrong); if you were to compare a group of people who worked their way up from scratch to make a salary equivalent to that of an NFL player in the business world, would you expect those folks to have a higher average IQ than that of an average NFL player who earns his money for “being really fast and good at tackling people”?

Sure, Notre Dame might suspend a QB for grades but I’m sure you’re well aware that Notre Dame puts a greater emphasis on academics (for their athletes) than most of the other Division 1 schools. Are you telling me that the best running back in the country wouldn’t make it into the NFL because “his IQ is low”? If he’s going to win games, an NFL team will pick him up (so long as he’s not a criminal, rude, etc).

Throwing a football might not get you into Stanford, but the point is if you’re good enough YOU WILL get into a Division 1 school and if you win games you will get into the NFL.

You are wrong.

It might make us regular guys feel better to insist Tom Brady must be a dummy because he's good looking, supremely talented, rich, famous, and married to the most successful model on the planet but there is no correlation between athleticism and intelligence anymore than penis size and intelligence.

Almost everyone succeeding and winning games in college WILL NOT play in the NFL. You're really underestimating what an elite group these teams are. Also, there isn't a tremendous amount of physical difference between NFL superstars and guys on the practice squad. Most of the time the practice squad guys are more athletic too. Those guys are able to get by on their athleticism in college where the level of competition isn't as steep. There is a reason teams invest so much money in evaluating a player's intelligence.

So, posted this earlier but according to Yahoo! Sports (which obviously isn’t the authority of everything and could be wrong) these are the historical average Wonderlic scores for NFL players by position. QBs/Centers are historically very smart (Tom Brady), Guards average, and RBs, WRs, FBs, HBs, etc are all below your average intelligence levels.

And on top of it, I'm sure most of these guys do some extensive preparation before taking the test, so if anything would say they skew slightly high.

Do you think these numbers are incorrect? Personally, I think these support my argument more than they do yours but I'm open for discussion.


Average Wonderlic Score (score of 20 = 100 IQ)

QB/Center: 24-25
Guard: 21
Safety/Linebacker: 19
Corner back: 18
Wide Receiver / Fullback: 17
Halfback: 16

They're probably right but I don't see how it hurts my argument.

 

[KevinWestern]

They're probably right but I don't see how it hurts my argument.

Let me put it this way. The average IQ of a college graduate is around 115 (which translates to about a 25 wonderlic).

Now, given the NFL’s smartest positions score on average a 24-25, and all others below that (well below for some), I think it’s a fair statement to say that NFL players aren’t all that smart - my original argument.

They are less smart than your average college graduate (despite most all attending college), and barely on par with the general population. Hardly an "elite" group when it comes to using the brain.

Fair statement?

 

[Unkotare]

And on top of it, I'm sure most of these guys do some extensive preparation before taking the test, so if anything I'd say they skew slightly high.

Objection. Speculation.

 

[KevinWestern]

And on top of it, I'm sure most of these guys do some extensive preparation before taking the test, so if anything I'd say they skew slightly high.

Objection. Speculation.

Sure, whatever. It is a speculation, but it's irrelevant regardless.

What is relevant is that I just showed you that AT BEST the average wonderlic score for an NFL player (across the board) is 19-21, which is lower than your average wonderlic score for a college graduate.

I showed you that NFL players are not that smart, which renders my original argument correct and your accusations incorrect.


.

 

[Unkotare]

They are less smart than your average college graduate (despite most all attending college), and barely on par with the general population. Hardly an "elite" group when it comes to using the brain.

Only about 30% of Americans hold at least a bachelor's degree.

Now we've gone from them being a bunch of big, fast idiots to not being "elite" intellectually? You've moved the goal posts all the way out of the stadium, through the parking lot and into the middle of the freeway somewhere. Bring them back.

 

[Unkotare]

And on top of it, I'm sure most of these guys do some extensive preparation before taking the test, so if anything I'd say they skew slightly high.

Objection. Speculation.

Sure, whatever. It is a speculation, but

.

But nothing. It was pure speculation. We could sit and pick apart this 'test' all day long too, but to what end? Where are your comparisons with people in other professions? Where is your recognition that some 70% of Americans don't hold a college degree at all? How widely used is this 'Wonderlic' test? What sample size are we talking about and how are the results calculated and verified? Etc., etc., etc.

 

[KevinWestern]

They are less smart than your average college graduate (despite most all attending college), and barely on par with the general population. Hardly an "elite" group when it comes to using the brain.

Only about 30% of Americans hold at least a bachelor's degree.

Now we've gone from them being a bunch of big, fast idiots to not being "elite" intellectually? You've moved the goal posts all the way out of the stadium, through the parking lot and into the middle of the freeway somewhere. Bring them back.

My whole point is that NFL players aren't that smart, on average. They are fast, physically talented, but as a whole don't excel in intelligence.

Although we can obviously debate this, I'd say someone with a 115+ IQ is smart (the average college grad's IQ).

That's why I originally said the bullying doesn't surprise me, because this is a group of guys who aren't that smart and (on top of it) generally are used to beating the crap out each other physically anyways.

Apologies if I offended anyone, as that wasn't my intention.

 

[KevinWestern]

Objection. Speculation.

Sure, whatever. It is a speculation, but

.

But nothing. It was pure speculation. We could sit and pick apart this 'test' all day long too, but to what end? Where are your comparisons with people in other professions? Where is your recognition that some 70% of Americans don't hold a college degree at all? How widely used is this 'Wonderlic' test? What sample size are we talking about and how are the results calculated and verified? Etc., etc., etc.

Hey, I never said the Wonderlic test was the end all be all. However, is pretty darn relevant to the conversation don't you think, lol? I mean, if you're speculating about the average intelligence of a group, and that entire group is required to take an intelligence test, doesn't it make sense that you examine those scores as a step 1?

Here's some median scores for other professions:

Systems Analyst – 32
Chemist – 31
Electrical Engineer – 30
Engineer – 29
Programmer – 29
Accountant – 28
Executive – 28
Reporter – 28
Teacher – 28
Copywriter – 27
Investment Analyst – 27
Librarian – 27
Electronics technician – 26
Salesperson – 25
Secretary – 24
Dispatcher – 23
Drafter – 23
Electrician – 23
Nurse – 23
Bank teller – 22
Cashier – 21
Firefighter – 21
General Clerical worker – 21
Machinist – 21
Receptionist – 21
Train Conductor – 21
Skilled Craftsman – 18
Security guard – 17
Welder – 17
Warehouseman – 15
Janitor - 14

 

[Callas_Dowboys]

They're probably right but I don't see how it hurts my argument.

Let me put it this way. The average IQ of a college graduate is around 115 (which translates to about a 25 wonderlic).

Now, given the NFL’s smartest positions score on average a 24-25, and all others below that (well below for some), I think it’s a fair statement to say that NFL players aren’t all that smart - my original argument.

They are less smart than your average college graduate (despite most all attending college), and barely on par with the general population.

Fair statement?

I think your original statement was closer to them being dumb then not all that smart but I don't think the numbers reflect either case. The problem with looking at the data your way is that almost none of the players being counted will ever really play in the NFL. Teams do the best they can to find actual talent but it winds up being an endless cycle of turnover until you find a quality starter.

I'm not suggesting that you necessarily have to be a genius to play pro sports but I suspect things will look very different if you narrow that list to guys who played 9+ years in the league. The average Wonderlic scores for QB's isn't especially impressive but if you start searching for individual starters, nearly all of them have scores well in excess of the average. Many of them are in the 30-35 range.

 

[KevinWestern]

I think your original statement was closer to them being dumb then not all that smart but I don't think the numbers reflect either case. The problem with looking at the data your way is that almost none of the players being counted will ever really play in the NFL. Teams do the best they can to find actual talent but it winds up being an endless cycle of turnover until you find a quality starter.

Correct, I should have worded my original argument a bit more carefully.

I'm not suggesting that you necessarily have to be a genius to play pro sports but I suspect things will look very different if you narrow that list to guys who played 9+ years in the league. The average Wonderlic scores for QB's isn't especially impressive but if you start searching for individual starters, nearly all of them have scores well in excess of the average. Many of them are in the 30-35 range. You can think what you want but I don't believe teams are trying to entice a 44 year old Brett Favre to come out of retirement because he's just more athletic than guys half his age.

It's a great point, definitely, and if you have any data that supports it I'd love to see it.

I will say however in the context of the conversation and the OP (bullying in the locker room, etc) we weren't discussing just the starters - we were discussing everyone (because everyone is going to be in the locker room).


.

 

[Callas_Dowboys]

It's a great point, definitely, and if you have any data that supports it I'd love to see it.

I will say however in the context of the conversation and the OP (bullying in the locker room, etc) we weren't discussing just the starters - we were discussing everyone (because everyone is going to be in the locker room).
.

Rich Incognito, the supposed bully, scored a 32 on the Wonderlic.

I think you're wrong on their intelligence but then again I also think you're wrong on your views of what took place as a whole. I think it was Martin who was in the wrong here and he probably tossed away what possible future he had in the league.

 

[Unkotare]

Rich Incognito, the supposed bully, scored a 32 on the Wonderlic. .

And the alleged victim graduated from Stanford, so I don't think this is a reflection of anything about intelligence and the NFL from which any larger conclusions can be drawn.