Blue Lies Matter: How cops are incentivized to lie — and why they get away with it.

[SavannahMann]

Excellent article in the link below on exactly how cops get away with and are encouraged to lie.

All of this is entirely true.

I remember reading about why police lie, years ago. Nothing has changed. The problem is, you have to put yourself in the place of a police officer, to understand. From the outside, a brainless person would conclude all police are evil. That's not true.

There are two primary reasons police lie.

The first is that we have so many laws that protect the evil and criminal, from the good and just.

Imagine if you grow up wanting to serve the public by enforcing the law. You wanted to be the guy that got the bad guy, and protected the good. Then you join the police force, and every single bad guy you stop, gets off because of a technicality, and despite overwhelming evidence they were criminals doing wrong, they were released back into the public.

The police as a group, see the illegal search and seizure laws, is immoral and unjust. So do I by the way. Maybe police officers should demoted, or suspended, or even fired, for illegal search and seizure... but no matter what, a criminal should not be released over it. If you find clear proof of crime, the criminal should be punished, no matter what the police did wrong.

As a result of this, police have no problem whatsoever with lying, to make sure the criminal punished, and justice is served. So no doubt, police lie all the time on this angle.

To think about it another way, what is the point of even being a police officer, if you can't stop the criminals? Police see their job as pointless, if they don't lie to catch the criminals.

The solution to this problem, is to change the laws, so that criminals are not released simply because a police officer didn't have a reason to look in the window and see the gun.

The second reason, is what the majority of those police beating videos are all about.

Police officers are not robots. They have emotions, like any other human being. In addition, they end up in high stress, high tension situations, where they have a massive Adrenalin rush.

Some of the videos show the end of fight or chase, where the criminal puts his hands up, and goes face down on the ground. What you missed, was where he fought with the police officer to break free, and ran 15 blocks to escape arrest.

By the time the criminal gives up, the police officer is already on an Adrenalin buzz, and mad as crap at this guy. Then you think the police officer should handle him with kid gloves?

No, not happening. And it shouldn't happen honestly. You taunt the police, fight with the police, and run from the police, you deserve having your face smashed in. Don't do that. Do not provoke police, don't fight with police, and don't run from police.

Then if you are beaten, I'll accept it was wrong. But up till then, no. You are criminal running from, taunting, and fighting with police. You deserve being shot. Anyone that does that, deserves to be shot. Police are the authority, and you need to either respect that, or stop crying about what happens.

Lastly, there are bad police officers, just like there are bad people in any group.

But even if there are, in this video you posted, the guy had a gun. That to me, is the end of the story. Unless he was following the gun laws, and was legally allowed to conceal and carry.... he's a criminal. I don't care what the police did.

You follow the laws first. You do YOUR part. Then when you have done your part, then I'll complain about the cops. But as long as you are a criminal, and a supporter of criminals.... yeah this is going to keep happening, because we don't care what the cops do, when you are a criminal. Stop being a criminal. Then we'll talk.

And by the way.... if you push this? If you really push this.... then you'll end up with Chicago. Police will pull back from those areas, and the criminals you have been defending all this time, will rape murder and steal everything in your area, and you only have yourself to blame.

Chicago is what happens when you attack the police. After those protests in Chicago, the police said... ok.... screw you. You want police that never hurt anybody? No problem. Now you don't have to worry about police stops and arrests and lying. Nope, because they practically stop no one.

See how well that's working out for you? You need to decide pretty quick what you want. Because ultimately you get what you want, then you don't like it. It's not the middle-class and upper class white areas where all the murdering is going on in Chicago. But you wanted the police to not shoot anybody... and they are not. You people are, but not the police. So much better isn't it?

There are so many problems with your arguments that I honestly am having trouble deciding where to begin.

Those silly laws that you argue are designed to protect the evil and criminal from the good and just. Those laws are designed to protect the rights of everyone. I notice that the Police themselves take full advantage of those laws, and many that are not available for the average citizen, when they are accused of a crime. The first thing you have to do is understand why the Civil Rights were codified into the Bill of Rights in the first place. The former colonists were not about to let the abuses of the citizens at the hands of the British Authorities continue under new management. They wrote those protections so that the onus of convicting a criminal fell onto the State. It created the phrase of innocent until proven guilty.

Finding reasons to throw people in prison for some perceived crime against the crown was no problem for the British authorities in the Colonies. Imagine Extraordinary Rendition writ even larger.

The police in that first scenario aren't the forces of good and Justice. They are merely faces of criminals. If you have to lie to prove your case, you did it wrong. Because lying under oath is called Perjury. If you have to Perjur yourself to get the conviction, you are a felon, a criminal yourself.

We don't let a baseball player use sandpaper to scuff up the ball. We don't let a batter put cork in the bat. We throw them out of the game if they are caught cheating. Yet you lionize the police for cheating. The baseball player cheating wants to win, and so does the cop. The big difference is that a baseball team that loses because the other side cheated doesn't go to prison.

If a Police Officer lies under oath even once, he is a criminal. Just as a bank robber is a criminal for robbing one bank. If you claim you have to become a criminal, to catch a criminal, than we have to competing gangs of criminals each trying for control.

I'm not trying to argue with you about if you think the police should, or shouldn't lie. Nor am I arguing about I think it's ok.

Regardless of whether you think a police officer lying is a criminal or not... They are all..... ALL.... going to continue to do it, forever.... as long as the current system of laws is the way that it is.

We can argue they should not lie.... I agree they should not lie.

That's great. We agreed. Wonderful. Has that improved anything? No. Nothing has changed. Great, we agreed lying is bad, and that changed nothing, and improve nothing, but we did agree on what changed nothing.

Do you want to solve this problem, or just make a moral statement?

Because until you change the incentives that are causing the resulting action, the action will continue.

And if you simply start punishing, or firing the police that engage in this action, the result will be Chicago. That's exactly what happened. The police got in trouble, and said screw this, we'll only show up when you call 911, which is long after the bodies hit the floor. Hey no one is lying!

Let me attempt to give a comparison. Something I'm dealing with right now.

So I was trying to work with management, about a labor problem. They have more than enough labor to do the work given, but they keep barely scraping by.

They would fire a bunch, and hire replacements, and for a short time they would work hard, and then over a few weeks, soon they were barely working, just like the people they fired.

Now the default answer from manage was, they were lazy, bad employees, so they fired them and got new ones.

So I started observing the situation, and noticed that when people worked really really hard, they would complete all their work, and have nothing to do. People who sat around, and worked as slow as possible, of course they always had work to do.

Well when the manager came out, who got in trouble, and who was praised and rewarded? The people who were done, were told to sweep, or go home early. The people who kept working, were 'dedicated employees' and were praised.

The people who worked hard were punished. The people who milked the clock, and dragged out a hour job, for 3 hours, were praised.

Thus, every time they hired on new people, in a matter of weeks, they would end up slow, clock milking people, and then we couldn't figure out why stuff didn't get done.

Now what is my point?

People adapt the incentives you create for them. Moralizing, and pronouncing judgement on them, doesn't work. And if you replace them, they new ones end up just like the old ones, because the incentives haven't changed.

If you adopted a new policy, that every single cop that every lied, was fired.... first cops would stop policing, just like in Chicago. Then the new cops, after you stopped firing them, would end up just like the old cops.

Why? Because the incentives haven't changed. Until you change the system, so the police don't have to lie, to capture bad guys.... they are going to keep lying. Or.... they are going to stop catching bad guys.

Now we could argue about those laws that protect criminals, supposedly protecting all of us... and yeah, I disagree with you on that, in a large number of ways. But.... it actually doesn't matter to this discussion.

Because even if you were right.... that still doesn't solve the problem. The police are still going to lie, as long as the laws make it the only way to stop bad guys. Or..... again... the police will simply stop enforcing the law, and we can all live in Chicago like situation across the country.

So you choose one criminal gang over another. Because that is all they are. Sadly, they could do the job the right way but they don't.

In the 1950's and 1960's the police complained that prohibitions on them beating a confession out of people would make it impossible to get the bad guys. Then the Miranda decision and the police complained again that this would make it impossible to get the bad guys.

Neither prediction was true. I don't know if you support those ideas of police work. The beating of a person until they confess. I know you support denial of the civil rights we fought a war to get.

When I was a boy in California there was a case that comes to mind. The police kicked in a door and found drugs inside a house. They didn't have a warrant. The defense attorney read a paper about the rights of a citizen. The Judge interrupted him and said that everyone knew the rights of a citizen. The lawyer said that these rights he was reading were from the Soviet Constitution. The only difference between our courts and theirs was the Judge and his willingness to uphold those rights. The KGB regularly did what the LAPD had done.

The police spend months on a case to identify child predators online. They have video available for most instances of crimes these days.



The man they caught was a baddie. A man who had abused his wife. A man who was violating a restraining order. Good job in getting there to arrest him. Then the case goes away. Sending the dog on a man who is cooperating and complying is inexcusable. Planting the drugs is just stupid. The man almost certainly went free on everything. As he should.

I've had a theory for a while. Cops are people who were picked on in high school. It has affected them. Deeply.

In the military we used to say the maximum effective range of an excuse is zero. All of the bullshit you are slinging is one excuse after another. The police don't want to do the job right so they aren't going to. That's fine with you. Tough job? Lots of people have tough jobs and we don't excuse behavior outside the norm from them.

So let me ask you this. Where do we draw the line? When does the behavior become unacceptable? If lying is okay is planting evidence? How about just walking into a house and looking for evidence? Why bother with a warrant? How about encouraging someone to confess? Killing unarmed people? Beating someone after they surrender? Where do we draw the line?

That's the problem you ignore with your defense of the indefensible. Are cops who rede favors to let a criminal go doing a good job? Coercion for sex or money in some cases. Does that cross the line?

When you accept some criminal behavior you have to have something that is too far don't you?

You are not listening to what I'm saying. and if you are just going to ignore what I'm saying, and put words in my mouth I didn't say, then you need to find someone else to talk to.

Sorry. I don't have time for such immature debate tactics, especially when I know if I was putting words in your mouth and claiming you supported such and such, when you never said that, you would have a melt down over it.

Have a good one.

I have a friend at work who feels much as you do. He believes that the police are a force for good, and anything that the police do, and I literally mean anything, is acceptable as he embraces the Jesuit based argument that the ends justify the means.

He believes, although he won't admit it, that the police are nearly psychic. When they plant evidence, or lie, it's because they know from their experience that the suspect is guilty. By using this psychic power, the police are able to get the baddies, even if they aren't doing anything wrong at this moment. If the cop knows the bad guy is a drug user, or dealer, but doesn't have any drugs right now, then not doing something is just wrong. The police would be leaving a drug dealer on the streets to poison and corrupt the children etc.

All of that detriment could be avoided by planting drugs, drugs that the baddie will almost certainly have in a day or two. Perhaps he sold everything he had on him by the time the police got there. Why waste time watching the guy and trying again later. The lawyer would just call that harassment if the police kept checking to see if the baddie had drugs today. Of course, the lawyer would be right.

When you put it into words, it sounds stupid. It sounds like a script of a bad TV movie. But that is the core of your belief even if you like my friend, don't want to put it into words. The police just "know" the baddie is a baddie. The ends, getting the baddie off the street, justify the means, lies and planting of evidence.

Sadly, the truth is that while it sounds good, there really is no way to tell if the baddie is a baddie. That's why those rules you have so much disdain for are so vital. That's why the truth, and doing things the right way matter. The cop doesn't suffer if an innocent man goes to prison. The cop doesn't suffer if an innocent man is fined or whatever. The innocent suffers.

Those rules and laws you hold in such contempt are designed to insure that the innocent are not punished. Courts are not set up to find guilt, they are supposed to protect the innocent. That protection is non existent when lies and planted evidence are the basis of the case against the accused.

 

[Andylusion]

All of this is entirely true.

I remember reading about why police lie, years ago. Nothing has changed. The problem is, you have to put yourself in the place of a police officer, to understand. From the outside, a brainless person would conclude all police are evil. That's not true.

There are two primary reasons police lie.

The first is that we have so many laws that protect the evil and criminal, from the good and just.

Imagine if you grow up wanting to serve the public by enforcing the law. You wanted to be the guy that got the bad guy, and protected the good. Then you join the police force, and every single bad guy you stop, gets off because of a technicality, and despite overwhelming evidence they were criminals doing wrong, they were released back into the public.

The police as a group, see the illegal search and seizure laws, is immoral and unjust. So do I by the way. Maybe police officers should demoted, or suspended, or even fired, for illegal search and seizure... but no matter what, a criminal should not be released over it. If you find clear proof of crime, the criminal should be punished, no matter what the police did wrong.

As a result of this, police have no problem whatsoever with lying, to make sure the criminal punished, and justice is served. So no doubt, police lie all the time on this angle.

To think about it another way, what is the point of even being a police officer, if you can't stop the criminals? Police see their job as pointless, if they don't lie to catch the criminals.

The solution to this problem, is to change the laws, so that criminals are not released simply because a police officer didn't have a reason to look in the window and see the gun.

The second reason, is what the majority of those police beating videos are all about.

Police officers are not robots. They have emotions, like any other human being. In addition, they end up in high stress, high tension situations, where they have a massive Adrenalin rush.

Some of the videos show the end of fight or chase, where the criminal puts his hands up, and goes face down on the ground. What you missed, was where he fought with the police officer to break free, and ran 15 blocks to escape arrest.

By the time the criminal gives up, the police officer is already on an Adrenalin buzz, and mad as crap at this guy. Then you think the police officer should handle him with kid gloves?

No, not happening. And it shouldn't happen honestly. You taunt the police, fight with the police, and run from the police, you deserve having your face smashed in. Don't do that. Do not provoke police, don't fight with police, and don't run from police.

Then if you are beaten, I'll accept it was wrong. But up till then, no. You are criminal running from, taunting, and fighting with police. You deserve being shot. Anyone that does that, deserves to be shot. Police are the authority, and you need to either respect that, or stop crying about what happens.

Lastly, there are bad police officers, just like there are bad people in any group.

But even if there are, in this video you posted, the guy had a gun. That to me, is the end of the story. Unless he was following the gun laws, and was legally allowed to conceal and carry.... he's a criminal. I don't care what the police did.

You follow the laws first. You do YOUR part. Then when you have done your part, then I'll complain about the cops. But as long as you are a criminal, and a supporter of criminals.... yeah this is going to keep happening, because we don't care what the cops do, when you are a criminal. Stop being a criminal. Then we'll talk.

And by the way.... if you push this? If you really push this.... then you'll end up with Chicago. Police will pull back from those areas, and the criminals you have been defending all this time, will rape murder and steal everything in your area, and you only have yourself to blame.

Chicago is what happens when you attack the police. After those protests in Chicago, the police said... ok.... screw you. You want police that never hurt anybody? No problem. Now you don't have to worry about police stops and arrests and lying. Nope, because they practically stop no one.

See how well that's working out for you? You need to decide pretty quick what you want. Because ultimately you get what you want, then you don't like it. It's not the middle-class and upper class white areas where all the murdering is going on in Chicago. But you wanted the police to not shoot anybody... and they are not. You people are, but not the police. So much better isn't it?

There are so many problems with your arguments that I honestly am having trouble deciding where to begin.

Those silly laws that you argue are designed to protect the evil and criminal from the good and just. Those laws are designed to protect the rights of everyone. I notice that the Police themselves take full advantage of those laws, and many that are not available for the average citizen, when they are accused of a crime. The first thing you have to do is understand why the Civil Rights were codified into the Bill of Rights in the first place. The former colonists were not about to let the abuses of the citizens at the hands of the British Authorities continue under new management. They wrote those protections so that the onus of convicting a criminal fell onto the State. It created the phrase of innocent until proven guilty.

Finding reasons to throw people in prison for some perceived crime against the crown was no problem for the British authorities in the Colonies. Imagine Extraordinary Rendition writ even larger.

The police in that first scenario aren't the forces of good and Justice. They are merely faces of criminals. If you have to lie to prove your case, you did it wrong. Because lying under oath is called Perjury. If you have to Perjur yourself to get the conviction, you are a felon, a criminal yourself.

We don't let a baseball player use sandpaper to scuff up the ball. We don't let a batter put cork in the bat. We throw them out of the game if they are caught cheating. Yet you lionize the police for cheating. The baseball player cheating wants to win, and so does the cop. The big difference is that a baseball team that loses because the other side cheated doesn't go to prison.

If a Police Officer lies under oath even once, he is a criminal. Just as a bank robber is a criminal for robbing one bank. If you claim you have to become a criminal, to catch a criminal, than we have to competing gangs of criminals each trying for control.

I'm not trying to argue with you about if you think the police should, or shouldn't lie. Nor am I arguing about I think it's ok.

Regardless of whether you think a police officer lying is a criminal or not... They are all..... ALL.... going to continue to do it, forever.... as long as the current system of laws is the way that it is.

We can argue they should not lie.... I agree they should not lie.

That's great. We agreed. Wonderful. Has that improved anything? No. Nothing has changed. Great, we agreed lying is bad, and that changed nothing, and improve nothing, but we did agree on what changed nothing.

Do you want to solve this problem, or just make a moral statement?

Because until you change the incentives that are causing the resulting action, the action will continue.

And if you simply start punishing, or firing the police that engage in this action, the result will be Chicago. That's exactly what happened. The police got in trouble, and said screw this, we'll only show up when you call 911, which is long after the bodies hit the floor. Hey no one is lying!

Let me attempt to give a comparison. Something I'm dealing with right now.

So I was trying to work with management, about a labor problem. They have more than enough labor to do the work given, but they keep barely scraping by.

They would fire a bunch, and hire replacements, and for a short time they would work hard, and then over a few weeks, soon they were barely working, just like the people they fired.

Now the default answer from manage was, they were lazy, bad employees, so they fired them and got new ones.

So I started observing the situation, and noticed that when people worked really really hard, they would complete all their work, and have nothing to do. People who sat around, and worked as slow as possible, of course they always had work to do.

Well when the manager came out, who got in trouble, and who was praised and rewarded? The people who were done, were told to sweep, or go home early. The people who kept working, were 'dedicated employees' and were praised.

The people who worked hard were punished. The people who milked the clock, and dragged out a hour job, for 3 hours, were praised.

Thus, every time they hired on new people, in a matter of weeks, they would end up slow, clock milking people, and then we couldn't figure out why stuff didn't get done.

Now what is my point?

People adapt the incentives you create for them. Moralizing, and pronouncing judgement on them, doesn't work. And if you replace them, they new ones end up just like the old ones, because the incentives haven't changed.

If you adopted a new policy, that every single cop that every lied, was fired.... first cops would stop policing, just like in Chicago. Then the new cops, after you stopped firing them, would end up just like the old cops.

Why? Because the incentives haven't changed. Until you change the system, so the police don't have to lie, to capture bad guys.... they are going to keep lying. Or.... they are going to stop catching bad guys.

Now we could argue about those laws that protect criminals, supposedly protecting all of us... and yeah, I disagree with you on that, in a large number of ways. But.... it actually doesn't matter to this discussion.

Because even if you were right.... that still doesn't solve the problem. The police are still going to lie, as long as the laws make it the only way to stop bad guys. Or..... again... the police will simply stop enforcing the law, and we can all live in Chicago like situation across the country.

So you choose one criminal gang over another. Because that is all they are. Sadly, they could do the job the right way but they don't.

In the 1950's and 1960's the police complained that prohibitions on them beating a confession out of people would make it impossible to get the bad guys. Then the Miranda decision and the police complained again that this would make it impossible to get the bad guys.

Neither prediction was true. I don't know if you support those ideas of police work. The beating of a person until they confess. I know you support denial of the civil rights we fought a war to get.

When I was a boy in California there was a case that comes to mind. The police kicked in a door and found drugs inside a house. They didn't have a warrant. The defense attorney read a paper about the rights of a citizen. The Judge interrupted him and said that everyone knew the rights of a citizen. The lawyer said that these rights he was reading were from the Soviet Constitution. The only difference between our courts and theirs was the Judge and his willingness to uphold those rights. The KGB regularly did what the LAPD had done.

The police spend months on a case to identify child predators online. They have video available for most instances of crimes these days.



The man they caught was a baddie. A man who had abused his wife. A man who was violating a restraining order. Good job in getting there to arrest him. Then the case goes away. Sending the dog on a man who is cooperating and complying is inexcusable. Planting the drugs is just stupid. The man almost certainly went free on everything. As he should.

I've had a theory for a while. Cops are people who were picked on in high school. It has affected them. Deeply.

In the military we used to say the maximum effective range of an excuse is zero. All of the bullshit you are slinging is one excuse after another. The police don't want to do the job right so they aren't going to. That's fine with you. Tough job? Lots of people have tough jobs and we don't excuse behavior outside the norm from them.

So let me ask you this. Where do we draw the line? When does the behavior become unacceptable? If lying is okay is planting evidence? How about just walking into a house and looking for evidence? Why bother with a warrant? How about encouraging someone to confess? Killing unarmed people? Beating someone after they surrender? Where do we draw the line?

That's the problem you ignore with your defense of the indefensible. Are cops who rede favors to let a criminal go doing a good job? Coercion for sex or money in some cases. Does that cross the line?

When you accept some criminal behavior you have to have something that is too far don't you?

You are not listening to what I'm saying. and if you are just going to ignore what I'm saying, and put words in my mouth I didn't say, then you need to find someone else to talk to.

Sorry. I don't have time for such immature debate tactics, especially when I know if I was putting words in your mouth and claiming you supported such and such, when you never said that, you would have a melt down over it.

Have a good one.

I have a friend at work who feels much as you do. He believes that the police are a force for good, and anything that the police do, and I literally mean anything, is acceptable as he embraces the Jesuit based argument that the ends justify the means.

He believes, although he won't admit it, that the police are nearly psychic. When they plant evidence, or lie, it's because they know from their experience that the suspect is guilty. By using this psychic power, the police are able to get the baddies, even if they aren't doing anything wrong at this moment. If the cop knows the bad guy is a drug user, or dealer, but doesn't have any drugs right now, then not doing something is just wrong. The police would be leaving a drug dealer on the streets to poison and corrupt the children etc.

All of that detriment could be avoided by planting drugs, drugs that the baddie will almost certainly have in a day or two. Perhaps he sold everything he had on him by the time the police got there. Why waste time watching the guy and trying again later. The lawyer would just call that harassment if the police kept checking to see if the baddie had drugs today. Of course, the lawyer would be right.

When you put it into words, it sounds stupid. It sounds like a script of a bad TV movie. But that is the core of your belief even if you like my friend, don't want to put it into words. The police just "know" the baddie is a baddie. The ends, getting the baddie off the street, justify the means, lies and planting of evidence.

Sadly, the truth is that while it sounds good, there really is no way to tell if the baddie is a baddie. That's why those rules you have so much disdain for are so vital. That's why the truth, and doing things the right way matter. The cop doesn't suffer if an innocent man goes to prison. The cop doesn't suffer if an innocent man is fined or whatever. The innocent suffers.

Those rules and laws you hold in such contempt are designed to insure that the innocent are not punished. Courts are not set up to find guilt, they are supposed to protect the innocent. That protection is non existent when lies and planted evidence are the basis of the case against the accused.

You just like criminals, support murder and rape, and what to destroy society. That's all there is to you.

(If you can put words in my mouth, that I didn't say, and that's an "argument" in your world, then I can do the same to you. What goes around comes around)

Take your "I love criminals, and harming people" argument and beliefs elsewhere. I am not going to listen to them. Thanks.

 

[fncceo]

there really is no way to tell if the baddie is a baddie

Ummmm... yes there is. It doesn't take psychic powers, just a keyboard.

It's called a background check and, useful tip, NO ONE EVER takes a good mug shot.

 

[SavannahMann]

there really is no way to tell if the baddie is a baddie

Ummmm... yes there is. It doesn't take psychic powers, just a keyboard.

It's called a background check and, useful tip, NO ONE EVER takes a good mug shot.

And you know the passenger in the car that you are approaching is a Felon based upon a background check you haven't run yet? Must be that same seventh sense that I've heard about. Or is it eighth sense? I lose track when we get to just knowing something.

The passenger isn't on the license plates most of the time. So how do you decide if you need to plant evidence or lie about things at a glance like that?

 

[fncceo]

So how do you decide if you need to plant evidence or lie about things

Given that neither I nor anyone I've ever worked with have done anything like that, there really is no need. Why complicate what is essentially a simple process?

 

[SavannahMann]

So how do you decide if you need to plant evidence or lie about things

Given that neither I nor anyone I've ever worked with have done anything like that, there really is no need. Why complicate what is essentially a simple process?

The thread you jumped into has established that police lie regularly. Andy is apparently one of the staunchest defenders and he claims that because of those rules that protect the evil from the good and just, the police lie all the time.

Personally I quoted the poll that found the Judges, Prosecutors, and Defense Attorney's believe that cops lie in one case out of five.

 

[Jarlaxle]

All of this is entirely true.

I remember reading about why police lie, years ago. Nothing has changed. The problem is, you have to put yourself in the place of a police officer, to understand. From the outside, a brainless person would conclude all police are evil. That's not true.

There are two primary reasons police lie.

The first is that we have so many laws that protect the evil and criminal, from the good and just.

Imagine if you grow up wanting to serve the public by enforcing the law. You wanted to be the guy that got the bad guy, and protected the good. Then you join the police force, and every single bad guy you stop, gets off because of a technicality, and despite overwhelming evidence they were criminals doing wrong, they were released back into the public.

The police as a group, see the illegal search and seizure laws, is immoral and unjust. So do I by the way. Maybe police officers should demoted, or suspended, or even fired, for illegal search and seizure... but no matter what, a criminal should not be released over it. If you find clear proof of crime, the criminal should be punished, no matter what the police did wrong.

As a result of this, police have no problem whatsoever with lying, to make sure the criminal punished, and justice is served. So no doubt, police lie all the time on this angle.

To think about it another way, what is the point of even being a police officer, if you can't stop the criminals? Police see their job as pointless, if they don't lie to catch the criminals.

The solution to this problem, is to change the laws, so that criminals are not released simply because a police officer didn't have a reason to look in the window and see the gun.

The second reason, is what the majority of those police beating videos are all about.

Police officers are not robots. They have emotions, like any other human being. In addition, they end up in high stress, high tension situations, where they have a massive Adrenalin rush.

Some of the videos show the end of fight or chase, where the criminal puts his hands up, and goes face down on the ground. What you missed, was where he fought with the police officer to break free, and ran 15 blocks to escape arrest.

By the time the criminal gives up, the police officer is already on an Adrenalin buzz, and mad as crap at this guy. Then you think the police officer should handle him with kid gloves?

No, not happening. And it shouldn't happen honestly. You taunt the police, fight with the police, and run from the police, you deserve having your face smashed in. Don't do that. Do not provoke police, don't fight with police, and don't run from police.

Then if you are beaten, I'll accept it was wrong. But up till then, no. You are criminal running from, taunting, and fighting with police. You deserve being shot. Anyone that does that, deserves to be shot. Police are the authority, and you need to either respect that, or stop crying about what happens.

Lastly, there are bad police officers, just like there are bad people in any group.

But even if there are, in this video you posted, the guy had a gun. That to me, is the end of the story. Unless he was following the gun laws, and was legally allowed to conceal and carry.... he's a criminal. I don't care what the police did.

You follow the laws first. You do YOUR part. Then when you have done your part, then I'll complain about the cops. But as long as you are a criminal, and a supporter of criminals.... yeah this is going to keep happening, because we don't care what the cops do, when you are a criminal. Stop being a criminal. Then we'll talk.

And by the way.... if you push this? If you really push this.... then you'll end up with Chicago. Police will pull back from those areas, and the criminals you have been defending all this time, will rape murder and steal everything in your area, and you only have yourself to blame.

Chicago is what happens when you attack the police. After those protests in Chicago, the police said... ok.... screw you. You want police that never hurt anybody? No problem. Now you don't have to worry about police stops and arrests and lying. Nope, because they practically stop no one.

See how well that's working out for you? You need to decide pretty quick what you want. Because ultimately you get what you want, then you don't like it. It's not the middle-class and upper class white areas where all the murdering is going on in Chicago. But you wanted the police to not shoot anybody... and they are not. You people are, but not the police. So much better isn't it?

There are so many problems with your arguments that I honestly am having trouble deciding where to begin.

Those silly laws that you argue are designed to protect the evil and criminal from the good and just. Those laws are designed to protect the rights of everyone. I notice that the Police themselves take full advantage of those laws, and many that are not available for the average citizen, when they are accused of a crime. The first thing you have to do is understand why the Civil Rights were codified into the Bill of Rights in the first place. The former colonists were not about to let the abuses of the citizens at the hands of the British Authorities continue under new management. They wrote those protections so that the onus of convicting a criminal fell onto the State. It created the phrase of innocent until proven guilty.

Finding reasons to throw people in prison for some perceived crime against the crown was no problem for the British authorities in the Colonies. Imagine Extraordinary Rendition writ even larger.

The police in that first scenario aren't the forces of good and Justice. They are merely faces of criminals. If you have to lie to prove your case, you did it wrong. Because lying under oath is called Perjury. If you have to Perjur yourself to get the conviction, you are a felon, a criminal yourself.

We don't let a baseball player use sandpaper to scuff up the ball. We don't let a batter put cork in the bat. We throw them out of the game if they are caught cheating. Yet you lionize the police for cheating. The baseball player cheating wants to win, and so does the cop. The big difference is that a baseball team that loses because the other side cheated doesn't go to prison.

If a Police Officer lies under oath even once, he is a criminal. Just as a bank robber is a criminal for robbing one bank. If you claim you have to become a criminal, to catch a criminal, than we have to competing gangs of criminals each trying for control.

I'm not trying to argue with you about if you think the police should, or shouldn't lie. Nor am I arguing about I think it's ok.

Regardless of whether you think a police officer lying is a criminal or not... They are all..... ALL.... going to continue to do it, forever.... as long as the current system of laws is the way that it is.

We can argue they should not lie.... I agree they should not lie.

That's great. We agreed. Wonderful. Has that improved anything? No. Nothing has changed. Great, we agreed lying is bad, and that changed nothing, and improve nothing, but we did agree on what changed nothing.

Do you want to solve this problem, or just make a moral statement?

Because until you change the incentives that are causing the resulting action, the action will continue.

And if you simply start punishing, or firing the police that engage in this action, the result will be Chicago. That's exactly what happened. The police got in trouble, and said screw this, we'll only show up when you call 911, which is long after the bodies hit the floor. Hey no one is lying!

Let me attempt to give a comparison. Something I'm dealing with right now.

So I was trying to work with management, about a labor problem. They have more than enough labor to do the work given, but they keep barely scraping by.

They would fire a bunch, and hire replacements, and for a short time they would work hard, and then over a few weeks, soon they were barely working, just like the people they fired.

Now the default answer from manage was, they were lazy, bad employees, so they fired them and got new ones.

So I started observing the situation, and noticed that when people worked really really hard, they would complete all their work, and have nothing to do. People who sat around, and worked as slow as possible, of course they always had work to do.

Well when the manager came out, who got in trouble, and who was praised and rewarded? The people who were done, were told to sweep, or go home early. The people who kept working, were 'dedicated employees' and were praised.

The people who worked hard were punished. The people who milked the clock, and dragged out a hour job, for 3 hours, were praised.

Thus, every time they hired on new people, in a matter of weeks, they would end up slow, clock milking people, and then we couldn't figure out why stuff didn't get done.

Now what is my point?

People adapt the incentives you create for them. Moralizing, and pronouncing judgement on them, doesn't work. And if you replace them, they new ones end up just like the old ones, because the incentives haven't changed.

If you adopted a new policy, that every single cop that every lied, was fired.... first cops would stop policing, just like in Chicago. Then the new cops, after you stopped firing them, would end up just like the old cops.

Why? Because the incentives haven't changed. Until you change the system, so the police don't have to lie, to capture bad guys.... they are going to keep lying. Or.... they are going to stop catching bad guys.

Now we could argue about those laws that protect criminals, supposedly protecting all of us... and yeah, I disagree with you on that, in a large number of ways. But.... it actually doesn't matter to this discussion.

Because even if you were right.... that still doesn't solve the problem. The police are still going to lie, as long as the laws make it the only way to stop bad guys. Or..... again... the police will simply stop enforcing the law, and we can all live in Chicago like situation across the country.

So you choose one criminal gang over another. Because that is all they are. Sadly, they could do the job the right way but they don't.

In the 1950's and 1960's the police complained that prohibitions on them beating a confession out of people would make it impossible to get the bad guys. Then the Miranda decision and the police complained again that this would make it impossible to get the bad guys.

Neither prediction was true. I don't know if you support those ideas of police work. The beating of a person until they confess. I know you support denial of the civil rights we fought a war to get.

When I was a boy in California there was a case that comes to mind. The police kicked in a door and found drugs inside a house. They didn't have a warrant. The defense attorney read a paper about the rights of a citizen. The Judge interrupted him and said that everyone knew the rights of a citizen. The lawyer said that these rights he was reading were from the Soviet Constitution. The only difference between our courts and theirs was the Judge and his willingness to uphold those rights. The KGB regularly did what the LAPD had done.

The police spend months on a case to identify child predators online. They have video available for most instances of crimes these days.



The man they caught was a baddie. A man who had abused his wife. A man who was violating a restraining order. Good job in getting there to arrest him. Then the case goes away. Sending the dog on a man who is cooperating and complying is inexcusable. Planting the drugs is just stupid. The man almost certainly went free on everything. As he should.

I've had a theory for a while. Cops are people who were picked on in high school. It has affected them. Deeply.

In the military we used to say the maximum effective range of an excuse is zero. All of the bullshit you are slinging is one excuse after another. The police don't want to do the job right so they aren't going to. That's fine with you. Tough job? Lots of people have tough jobs and we don't excuse behavior outside the norm from them.

So let me ask you this. Where do we draw the line? When does the behavior become unacceptable? If lying is okay is planting evidence? How about just walking into a house and looking for evidence? Why bother with a warrant? How about encouraging someone to confess? Killing unarmed people? Beating someone after they surrender? Where do we draw the line?

That's the problem you ignore with your defense of the indefensible. Are cops who rede favors to let a criminal go doing a good job? Coercion for sex or money in some cases. Does that cross the line?

When you accept some criminal behavior you have to have something that is too far don't you?

You are not listening to what I'm saying. and if you are just going to ignore what I'm saying, and put words in my mouth I didn't say, then you need to find someone else to talk to.

Sorry. I don't have time for such immature debate tactics, especially when I know if I was putting words in your mouth and claiming you supported such and such, when you never said that, you would have a melt down over it.

Have a good one.

I have a friend at work who feels much as you do. He believes that the police are a force for good, and anything that the police do, and I literally mean anything, is acceptable as he embraces the Jesuit based argument that the ends justify the means.

He believes, although he won't admit it, that the police are nearly psychic. When they plant evidence, or lie, it's because they know from their experience that the suspect is guilty. By using this psychic power, the police are able to get the baddies, even if they aren't doing anything wrong at this moment. If the cop knows the bad guy is a drug user, or dealer, but doesn't have any drugs right now, then not doing something is just wrong. The police would be leaving a drug dealer on the streets to poison and corrupt the children etc.

All of that detriment could be avoided by planting drugs, drugs that the baddie will almost certainly have in a day or two. Perhaps he sold everything he had on him by the time the police got there. Why waste time watching the guy and trying again later. The lawyer would just call that harassment if the police kept checking to see if the baddie had drugs today. Of course, the lawyer would be right.

When you put it into words, it sounds stupid. It sounds like a script of a bad TV movie. But that is the core of your belief even if you like my friend, don't want to put it into words. The police just "know" the baddie is a baddie. The ends, getting the baddie off the street, justify the means, lies and planting of evidence.

Sadly, the truth is that while it sounds good, there really is no way to tell if the baddie is a baddie. That's why those rules you have so much disdain for are so vital. That's why the truth, and doing things the right way matter. The cop doesn't suffer if an innocent man goes to prison. The cop doesn't suffer if an innocent man is fined or whatever. The innocent suffers.

Those rules and laws you hold in such contempt are designed to insure that the innocent are not punished. Courts are not set up to find guilt, they are supposed to protect the innocent. That protection is non existent when lies and planted evidence are the basis of the case against the accused.

That dude should probably be locked up.

 

[Trump.Stamped]

So they found 62 cases. Out of millions of arrests.

Not a bad batting average.

 

[Andylusion]

Excellent article in the link below on exactly how cops get away with and are encouraged to lie.

All of this is entirely true.

I remember reading about why police lie, years ago. Nothing has changed. The problem is, you have to put yourself in the place of a police officer, to understand. From the outside, a brainless person would conclude all police are evil. That's not true.

There are two primary reasons police lie.

The first is that we have so many laws that protect the evil and criminal, from the good and just.

Imagine if you grow up wanting to serve the public by enforcing the law. You wanted to be the guy that got the bad guy, and protected the good. Then you join the police force, and every single bad guy you stop, gets off because of a technicality, and despite overwhelming evidence they were criminals doing wrong, they were released back into the public.

The police as a group, see the illegal search and seizure laws, is immoral and unjust. So do I by the way. Maybe police officers should demoted, or suspended, or even fired, for illegal search and seizure... but no matter what, a criminal should not be released over it. If you find clear proof of crime, the criminal should be punished, no matter what the police did wrong.

As a result of this, police have no problem whatsoever with lying, to make sure the criminal punished, and justice is served. So no doubt, police lie all the time on this angle.

To think about it another way, what is the point of even being a police officer, if you can't stop the criminals? Police see their job as pointless, if they don't lie to catch the criminals.

The solution to this problem, is to change the laws, so that criminals are not released simply because a police officer didn't have a reason to look in the window and see the gun.

The second reason, is what the majority of those police beating videos are all about.

Police officers are not robots. They have emotions, like any other human being. In addition, they end up in high stress, high tension situations, where they have a massive Adrenalin rush.

Some of the videos show the end of fight or chase, where the criminal puts his hands up, and goes face down on the ground. What you missed, was where he fought with the police officer to break free, and ran 15 blocks to escape arrest.

By the time the criminal gives up, the police officer is already on an Adrenalin buzz, and mad as crap at this guy. Then you think the police officer should handle him with kid gloves?

No, not happening. And it shouldn't happen honestly. You taunt the police, fight with the police, and run from the police, you deserve having your face smashed in. Don't do that. Do not provoke police, don't fight with police, and don't run from police.

Then if you are beaten, I'll accept it was wrong. But up till then, no. You are criminal running from, taunting, and fighting with police. You deserve being shot. Anyone that does that, deserves to be shot. Police are the authority, and you need to either respect that, or stop crying about what happens.

Lastly, there are bad police officers, just like there are bad people in any group.

But even if there are, in this video you posted, the guy had a gun. That to me, is the end of the story. Unless he was following the gun laws, and was legally allowed to conceal and carry.... he's a criminal. I don't care what the police did.

You follow the laws first. You do YOUR part. Then when you have done your part, then I'll complain about the cops. But as long as you are a criminal, and a supporter of criminals.... yeah this is going to keep happening, because we don't care what the cops do, when you are a criminal. Stop being a criminal. Then we'll talk.

And by the way.... if you push this? If you really push this.... then you'll end up with Chicago. Police will pull back from those areas, and the criminals you have been defending all this time, will rape murder and steal everything in your area, and you only have yourself to blame.

Chicago is what happens when you attack the police. After those protests in Chicago, the police said... ok.... screw you. You want police that never hurt anybody? No problem. Now you don't have to worry about police stops and arrests and lying. Nope, because they practically stop no one.

See how well that's working out for you? You need to decide pretty quick what you want. Because ultimately you get what you want, then you don't like it. It's not the middle-class and upper class white areas where all the murdering is going on in Chicago. But you wanted the police to not shoot anybody... and they are not. You people are, but not the police. So much better isn't it?

So it's either one extreme or the other...is that it?

Well you tell me? How's things in Chicago these days?

There is no system where you can have police that are restricted in every aspect of their job.... and yet still are effective in stopping criminals.

Honestly, that's my answer to you. I stand by the evidence that we see right now. You tell me if my claim is right based on the evidence.

I just read where the murder rate in Baton Rouge is going up, because after the BLM protests, they pushed down a bunch of new more restrictive regulations on officers... and just like Chicago, the officers are simply not stopping people.

Again..... this is no surprise to me. I predicted it. I don't know what you expected?

It's just like this video here. The police officer caught some people clearly breaking the law. No one questions that. He caught a guy with a gun. No one questions that.

But instead of being upset at a criminal with a gun, you are upset with the police officer.

Well if the police had all done the same thing that Chicago and Baton Rouge police are doing, ignored them all, and the guy with the gun had shot some guy that won money from him on the street.....

Then you'd be bitching the police should have done something to stop it.

But sorry.... that's not happening. The police are not going to stop people, if they are going get in trouble every time they find a criminal.

They'll just do what they are doing in Chicago and Baton Rouge, and just wait for the 911 call.

Again if you have the magic solution where you can punish police, and have harmless law enforcement, I'd love to hear you solution. I am completely open to any suggestion you have.

But having looked around the world today, I don't see this care-bear cuddly law enforcement system, where police are punished as much as the criminals. I've seen police in Russia beat the crap out of people. I've seen the police in Nigeria, just smash people in the mud. So where is this happy cuddly never-violent police force?

So now the standard is that our cops are not as brutal as the ones in Russia? Talk about settling for second best.

Not sure why I'm responding to someone who will just make up stuff I never said.....

That's *MY* point. We have some of the least brutal cops in the world, relative to other nations with violence problems.

You people have it so good here, and yet all you do is complain, and whine and b!tch and moan. If it's so bad, go to Russia. Go any number of other countries, and see how much better they are at dealing with violent criminals.

You complain about how militarized it is, well let's go to Israel, and just have men walking around in public with M16s. That's 'normal' there.

 

[fncceo]

Israel, and just have men walking around in public with M16s. That's 'normal' there.

Women too ...

 

[Theowl32]

The best cops are more interested in getting the bad guys than following rules that the criminal mind takes advantage of.

The slave op who is still clearly enslaved is just trying once again to tell us all how bad blacks have it in the country.

The same argument is never going to die. Of course the cops bend the rules to get the bad guy.

Sean connery tells it the best.

 

[fncceo]

The best cops are more interested in getting the bad guys than following rules that the criminal mind takes advantage of.

The slave op who is still clearly enslaved is just trying once again to tell us all how bad blacks have it in the country.

The same argument is never going to die. Of course the cops bend the rules to get the bad guy.

Sean connery tells it the best.

That makes a good 'movie cop' but an actual cop can do no such thing. The actual cop is just the first rung in a long ladder that we call the justice system. We catch crooks, sometimes, and give them to the system for processing. Most times they're back out on the streets and we just catch them again.

It's not frustrating, it's just the way the game is played. Judges, lawyers, prosecutors, they all have much more invested in the outcomes of the system than do the police. Their reputations ride on the outcomes of trials, not the police's.

Police know that if we don't catch the crook today, we'll catch him tomorrow. Crooks are nothing if not predictable.

 

[Theowl32]

The best cops are more interested in getting the bad guys than following rules that the criminal mind takes advantage of.

The slave op who is still clearly enslaved is just trying once again to tell us all how bad blacks have it in the country.

The same argument is never going to die. Of course the cops bend the rules to get the bad guy.

Sean connery tells it the best.

That makes a good 'movie cop' but an actual cop can do no such thing. The actual cop is just the first rung in a long ladder that we call the justice system. We catch crooks, sometimes, and give them to the system for processing. Most times they're back out on the streets and we just catch them again.

It's not frustrating, it's just the way the game is played. Judges, lawyers, prosecutors, they all have much more invested in the outcomes of the system than do the police. Their reputations ride on the outcomes of trials, not the police's.

Police know that if we don't catch the crook today, we'll catch him tomorrow. Crooks are nothing if not predictable.

I know. I tend to agree. However, I do think there are times when extreme steps are called for. Los pepes for example in taking down Escobar. Not that that will happen here but is probably the point.

It is related to the insidious rules of engagement that our soldiers and seemingly only our soldiers have to follow.

 

[fncceo]

However, I do think there are times when extreme steps are called for

I strongly disagree with this. If things need to change, it isn't police who change them. Police should not, cannot, and, do not rightfully make policy. We enforce policy created by elected officials. That's the only way the system will work properly.

When you make exceptions to the rules, that means the rules are no longer valid. Like I tell people all the time, 'If you don't like the law, don't get mad at the police'. Get mad at the people who make them. When they change the law, I'll enforce it.

 

[Theowl32]

However, I do think there are times when extreme steps are called for

I strongly disagree with this. If things need to change, it isn't police who change them. Police should not, cannot, and, do not rightfully make policy. We enforce policy created by elected officials. That's the only way the system will work properly.

When you make exceptions to the rules, that means the rules are no longer valid. Like I tell people all the time, 'If you don't like the law, don't get mad at the police'. Get mad at the people who make them. When they change the law, I'll enforce it.

Well, there are plenty of times throughout history where enforcing an unjust law, is unjust. For example, living in a police state, the police carry out the wicked unjust laws.

Well, the opposite imo is true too. Not saying it is right or wrong or whatever. Personally, I want the bad guy off the street and I want the cops who want the bad guy off the street too.

 

[fncceo]

living in a police state, the police carry out the wicked unjust laws

The thing is, we don't live in a police state -- despite what some might have you believe. We have a system that, despite all its flaws, works. Any legal system worthy of that name provides jealous protection for fundamental rights and liberties. The makers and enforcers of laws are as equally encumbered by law as are the citizens of the state.

In practical terms this means that as much as we want the bad guys off the streets, we will have to abide by the protections created to defend liberties. If we violate those protections, we transition from enforcers of the law to law breakers with no legal or moral authority to enforce the law.

 

[Wiskers Von Pussyboots]

Excellent article in the link below on exactly how cops get away with and are encouraged to lie.

 

[SavannahMann]

The best cops are more interested in getting the bad guys than following rules that the criminal mind takes advantage of.

The slave op who is still clearly enslaved is just trying once again to tell us all how bad blacks have it in the country.

The same argument is never going to die. Of course the cops bend the rules to get the bad guy.

Sean connery tells it the best.

I talked about this with some friends many of whom were black. Let me tell you the scenario, and you tell me if you think this is fair.

You are a young man, and you work hard at your job, you have a skill. One is a Mechanic, a Master Mechanic no less. Another that I'm going to focus on is a back yard mechanic, truck driver, equipment operator.

This one fellow worked his life at his career. In his fifties, he started to indulge his hobby of restoring cars. He got his hands on an old Mercedes, one of the early AMG models. It was in bad shape, and he worked on it for months. Finally he got it shining like a new penny. Buffed out in beautiful silver glory. The engine purred like a contented kitten. The interior was pristine.

My friend was proud of his work. I was impressed. He did a lot of hard labor on that car. It got so he couldn't drive it. Every week he was pulled over to see if he had drugs in the car. In Georgia and South Carolina. My friend knew it was merely a matter of time before the cops planted something. Your awesome cops were just absolutely sure that he must be dealing drugs to drive a shiny car.

Why was he being pulled over? He wasn't driving fast, or recklessly, he was a black man in a shiny Mercedes. Driving while black is a crime in this nation. In New York, and in California. In Georgia and in Texas.

You pretend it's great that the cops lie and break the rules. I think it's a disgusting and despicable thing. I think it's a tragedy that my friend parked his car and never drives it because he is really sick of the harassment he has to endure to drive a car he worked for hundreds of hours on.

That is one story, one of dozens that my friends tell me and I've seen. I saw my friend pulled over more than once on the way to work. I always told the Managers that the cops had him pulled over again because they were just checking on random black men driving Mercedes again.

There are many more if you would listen. The heroes you celebrate for breaking the very rules you think should be enforced, are in reality just criminals with authority to many of us.

 

[Andylusion]

The best cops are more interested in getting the bad guys than following rules that the criminal mind takes advantage of.

The slave op who is still clearly enslaved is just trying once again to tell us all how bad blacks have it in the country.

The same argument is never going to die. Of course the cops bend the rules to get the bad guy.

Sean connery tells it the best.

I talked about this with some friends many of whom were black. Let me tell you the scenario, and you tell me if you think this is fair.

You are a young man, and you work hard at your job, you have a skill. One is a Mechanic, a Master Mechanic no less. Another that I'm going to focus on is a back yard mechanic, truck driver, equipment operator.

This one fellow worked his life at his career. In his fifties, he started to indulge his hobby of restoring cars. He got his hands on an old Mercedes, one of the early AMG models. It was in bad shape, and he worked on it for months. Finally he got it shining like a new penny. Buffed out in beautiful silver glory. The engine purred like a contented kitten. The interior was pristine.

My friend was proud of his work. I was impressed. He did a lot of hard labor on that car. It got so he couldn't drive it. Every week he was pulled over to see if he had drugs in the car. In Georgia and South Carolina. My friend knew it was merely a matter of time before the cops planted something. Your awesome cops were just absolutely sure that he must be dealing drugs to drive a shiny car.

Why was he being pulled over? He wasn't driving fast, or recklessly, he was a black man in a shiny Mercedes. Driving while black is a crime in this nation. In New York, and in California. In Georgia and in Texas.

You pretend it's great that the cops lie and break the rules. I think it's a disgusting and despicable thing. I think it's a tragedy that my friend parked his car and never drives it because he is really sick of the harassment he has to endure to drive a car he worked for hundreds of hours on.

That is one story, one of dozens that my friends tell me and I've seen. I saw my friend pulled over more than once on the way to work. I always told the Managers that the cops had him pulled over again because they were just checking on random black men driving Mercedes again.

There are many more if you would listen. The heroes you celebrate for breaking the very rules you think should be enforced, are in reality just criminals with authority to many of us.

And look who is judging?

My friend knew it was merely a matter of time before the cops planted something. Your awesome cops were just absolutely sure that he must be dealing drugs to drive a shiny car.
​

You are judging the cops, before anything happened. You are no better than the police you hate, by your own, and your friends own admission.

And where did anyone anywhere say we support cops planting evidence? I can't think of a single post anywhere, by anyone, which said that, yet you have no problem saying "Your awesome cops".

This is why you can't get anyone to debate you openly, and take your position honestly. Why would we when you shove words and position on us, we didn't say or support?

When people like you, say stuff like that, my care-o-meter about your justice with police goes down. Maybe you deserve to have evidence planted on you, when you are such a self-centered arrogant judgmental prick?

You want to win anyone, forget me, but anyone else to your side, don't make up things they didn't say, and attribute position to them they don't support. Quite frankly, based on your previous posts, I think it would be good for all of us, if you ended up on the news. One less jerk in the world. People like you don't help anything. You only make everything worse.

 

[SavannahMann]

The best cops are more interested in getting the bad guys than following rules that the criminal mind takes advantage of.

The slave op who is still clearly enslaved is just trying once again to tell us all how bad blacks have it in the country.

The same argument is never going to die. Of course the cops bend the rules to get the bad guy.

Sean connery tells it the best.

I talked about this with some friends many of whom were black. Let me tell you the scenario, and you tell me if you think this is fair.

You are a young man, and you work hard at your job, you have a skill. One is a Mechanic, a Master Mechanic no less. Another that I'm going to focus on is a back yard mechanic, truck driver, equipment operator.

This one fellow worked his life at his career. In his fifties, he started to indulge his hobby of restoring cars. He got his hands on an old Mercedes, one of the early AMG models. It was in bad shape, and he worked on it for months. Finally he got it shining like a new penny. Buffed out in beautiful silver glory. The engine purred like a contented kitten. The interior was pristine.

My friend was proud of his work. I was impressed. He did a lot of hard labor on that car. It got so he couldn't drive it. Every week he was pulled over to see if he had drugs in the car. In Georgia and South Carolina. My friend knew it was merely a matter of time before the cops planted something. Your awesome cops were just absolutely sure that he must be dealing drugs to drive a shiny car.

Why was he being pulled over? He wasn't driving fast, or recklessly, he was a black man in a shiny Mercedes. Driving while black is a crime in this nation. In New York, and in California. In Georgia and in Texas.

You pretend it's great that the cops lie and break the rules. I think it's a disgusting and despicable thing. I think it's a tragedy that my friend parked his car and never drives it because he is really sick of the harassment he has to endure to drive a car he worked for hundreds of hours on.

That is one story, one of dozens that my friends tell me and I've seen. I saw my friend pulled over more than once on the way to work. I always told the Managers that the cops had him pulled over again because they were just checking on random black men driving Mercedes again.

There are many more if you would listen. The heroes you celebrate for breaking the very rules you think should be enforced, are in reality just criminals with authority to many of us.

And look who is judging?

My friend knew it was merely a matter of time before the cops planted something. Your awesome cops were just absolutely sure that he must be dealing drugs to drive a shiny car.
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You are judging the cops, before anything happened. You are no better than the police you hate, by your own, and your friends own admission.

And where did anyone anywhere say we support cops planting evidence? I can't think of a single post anywhere, by anyone, which said that, yet you have no problem saying "Your awesome cops".

This is why you can't get anyone to debate you openly, and take your position honestly. Why would we when you shove words and position on us, we didn't say or support?

When people like you, say stuff like that, my care-o-meter about your justice with police goes down. Maybe you deserve to have evidence planted on you, when you are such a self-centered arrogant judgmental prick?

You want to win anyone, forget me, but anyone else to your side, don't make up things they didn't say, and attribute position to them they don't support. Quite frankly, based on your previous posts, I think it would be good for all of us, if you ended up on the news. One less jerk in the world. People like you don't help anything. You only make everything worse.

Andy. You said you support cops lying. You wrote it Blue Lies Matter: How cops are incentivized to lie — and why they get away with it.

You posted a long reply about why they had to because the system is so unfair to protect the guilty from the just and good. Did someone borrow your account and post that in your name?

I asked you at least three times where you would draw the line if you supported cops committing felony perjury. What thing was too egregious or too corrupt. All you said was that I was putting words in your mouth. You wrote you were not going to reply to me anymore since I was accurately quoting you and you said I was this putting words in your mouth.

I don't give a damn if you take anything serious. You are such a lousy liar that you may be a cop yourself.

Now you say you would not support planting evidence. That's the first time you ever wrote that. Sort of odd isn't it? I know this is probably taking time away from your special "me" time with a bottle of lotion and the box set of America's toughest cops.

Now were you unaware that a liar in court is committing felony perjury even if they had a badge? Do you have some multiple personality disorder? Or were you so put upon that you figured the reply I made to Theowl32 was really directed at you?