Andylusion
Platinum Member
If all or most Americans felt the way you do about the Fourth Amendment our democracy would have dissolved into something resembling East Germany during the USSR era. The illegal search and seizure laws exist for one very important purpose -- to safeguard your privacy and to protect you against carelessly harmful police practices. Discharge of convictable felons because of Fourth Amendment violations is a relatively rare occurrence.[...]
The police as a group, see the illegal search and seizure laws, is immoral and unjust. So do I by the way. Maybe police officers should demoted, or suspended, or even fired, for illegal search and seizure... but no matter what, a criminal should not be released over it. If you find clear proof of crime, the criminal should be punished, no matter what the police did wrong.
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I would argue it's not rare. It's common, because the laws are so strict, that police see people released that harm all of us again. This is why they lie. If they don't criminals would be running the country by now.
I personally, do not believe that the fourth Amendment was ever intended to be used to defend criminals, like the way it is today.
We can argue that, and it could go either way.
But regardless, today it's nothing more than a defense of criminals, that harm and ruin society. The amount of crime in our culture is ridiculous. And honestly, the only reason it exists, is because the cost of this crime is completely hidden from the public.
If you knew how much of the cost of the goods you buy, goes to paying for criminal activity, you'd freak out. If you knew how much money you are not being paid, because the company is paying for stealing and theft, you would freak out.
If all the costs of crime were tallied up in a monthly bill that you had to pay, all of you would stop b!tching about police and the 4th amendment, and you would be forming lynch mobs, and hanging these people.
But because you don't see it, and don't realize it, and live in myth that someone else, somewhere else is paying that cost... you can sit around whining about the 4th amendment and police that lie.
Part of the reason why crime is higher in poor areas, is because crime makes people and society, poor. You want to help the poor? First thing you need to do, is kill the criminals.
Andy, I know the costs of illegality. I know the mark up to cover for the loss to shoplifters. I also know the cost to ignoring things like the 4th Amendment.
The Los Angeles Sheriff's Department was searching public housing without warrants. They and the housing police claimed that the people who lived in the public housing had for all intents and purposes forfeited their rights to the protections of the Constitution by accepting public housing. They searched without warrants, and without probable cause, and without permission of the residents.
This was wrong. It is said that the road to hell is paved with good intentions, and even if you feel that the motivation was pure, to find and remove weapons, to find and remove drugs, the path required people to become second class citizens. Citizens without protection by the founding documents and principles.
I read an appeals court decision not long ago. One that is being appealed to the Supreme Court. It is not the case I would liked to fight but it's what we have. Part of the appeals decision was that the people who carry concealed must accept that availing themselves of the right to carry a gun means they sacrifice the other rights like the fourth.
I disagree with that argument. My freedom of speech should not and can not limit any other rights. Your second amendment rights do not mean you lose your fourth amendment rights.
If that case is upheld, then anyone who chooses to carry concealed is a second class citizen by law. I objected to the PATRIOT ACT because it weakened the civil rights. The idea that a Federal Agent could give me a letter and instantly I am without my fourth, fifth, or sixth amendment rights was just flat assed wrong.
As I said this case is a bad one to use fighting this battle, but letting it go is even worse. That's why the NRA is involved. Because gun owners across the country stand to have their civil rights waved away. I'm on the NRA's side on this one. I hope they win. Even if winning means a bad guy goes free.
Actually I would agree with that. When YOU earn the money to buy YOUR property, that's one thing. When you are living there at my expense, yeah, I have no problem with the police searching your property every single month.
I would support legislation to that effect.
Yes the path to hell is paved with good intentions... .and that's what I think of your views. Our nation is in a downward spiral, and it's because of the views your expressing right here. Every year, things are getting worse, and we've been following your plan to the letter. Every time the police do anything, there's a bunch of people like you attacking them. Are things better now? Or worse? Clearly worse, not better. Look at Chicago. That's your plan in action. Good job. You got the police officer. Well done. See how much better it is?
We're not on my plan our we? So you can't blame me for Chicago, can you?
Andy. One of the big differences between us is this. I would fight for your rights while you would fight to take mine.
Let's talk about Chicago. I'll give you credit, normally police supporters who try to downplay police abuses and misconduct use Chicago a simple an example of why it's all the Democrats fault. Their argument is that Republicans would not allow the misconduct and corruption.
Instead of giving you examples of where absolute police states failed, or waxing about the noble principles behind the Civil Rights. I'm going to make an offer to you.
I propose this compromise. The police will have the absolute power that would result from getting rid of the Civil Rights. Accused will be guilty until proven innocent. No problems with search warrants, the police will be free to search anyone and anything they want. They can set up checkpoints and quiz drivers and pedestrians to their hearts content.
That's what I'll give you. Here is what you have to give me in return. If an innocent person is convicted of a crime, they get one million dollars a day for every single day they were in prison. The police, prosecutors, and judges who found the person guilty, will be executed within 24 hours of the truth becoming known. If DNA evidence exonerates a convicted person, everyone who participated in the conviction is executed within 24 hours.
The old saying as true. Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. There is a way to prevent that. Accountability. The convex of authority, is responsibility. A Sergeant has authority over the soldiers assigned to him. That authority means that the Sergeant is held to a higher standard, and is responsible for his actions, and the actions of the soldiers. An officer has even more authority, and thus even more responsibility. A crime that would see the soldier drummed out of the service will see an Officer Court Martialed.
The people who scream the loudest if this compromise looked to go into effect would not be the ACLU although they would certainly be screaming. It would be the Police, the Prosecutors, and the Judges. The Police have laws that prevent them from being held responsible. It's called the LEOBR. The Law Enforcement Officers Bill of Rights. California which has some of the most egregious examples of Police Misconduct also has one of the strongest LEOBR on the books. You can't interview a cop without a lawyer present. He doesn't have to ask for one, if you do interview him without a lawyer then the case is pretty much automatically dismissed.
The police themselves would object to being held accountable for the absolute power that is proposed. They don't follow the rules now, and in the compromise I suggest they wouldn't have any except one. Only those guilty of the crime go to prison. If they care convicted of rape, or murder, and did not commit the rape, or murder, claiming that they were drug dealers later doesn't cut it. If they were sent to prison for Murder, and are exonerated later, the cops are executed the next day. No exceptions, no excuses.
This way, the guilty get punished, by whom I have no idea. Because none of the cops would take the job under those circumstances. Nobody will gamble their life on being right every time. We would devolve into chaos, because the one truth about the history of our world is this. The more power the police have, the less accountability they are subject to. No KGB officer was ever punished for sending an innocent man to the Gulag. No STASI agent was ever punished for lying about an East German citizen.
That is what is really wrong with our system. We aren't holding those with authority responsible for their actions. If they are caught breaking the rules, they escape any punishment in a vast majority of the cases. Sometimes they may resign and get a job doing the same thing at another department. Sometimes they lose a few days or hours of pay. Sometimes they get a letter that says they are a bad boy in a file sealed from discovery by the public or attorneys for the defense.
I offer absolute power, with absolute accountability. If you are willing to risk my life, you should ante your own up to keep the table stakes fair.
I find the examples of police state type tactics abhorrent. But I'm willing to go along, if the absolute power awarded, is met with absolute responsibility.
How many lies would the police tell then, assuming you could find someone dumb enough to take the job? How many times would the police plant evidence? Would the guilty escape punishment in this scenario? Would you be willing to live in such a society?
No, you would not fight for my rights. You have admitted as much.
If a man raped and murdered my daughter, and then shot me and left me paralyzed for life.... if the police found the guy, found the knife, and found the gun, and found DNA evidence on both... but failed to get some warrant..... or made a mistake in handling the evidence, or lied on a police report about something irrelevant.... you would fight tooth an nail to deny me justice, and my daughter justice, and you would fight to bitter end to protect the criminal.
You would never fight for my rights. You would fight to deny my rights to justice. You have admitted this a dozen times in this thread. Unlike you, I don't have to make up stuff you didn't say. I cite your own posts as proof of my accusation against you.
You left-wingers sit around claiming to be for the people, while doing everything you can to harm the people. Sorry, but that BS doesn't fly with me buddy.