Birth Control Mandate: Is this taking the Religous Liberty Exception too far?

[Uncensored2008]

So then I take it your preference is to abort babies versus taking a pill? hmmm. Kind of strange don't you think?

The point is we control our population by using birth control devices. Otherwise we would revel the population of China and then be forced to mandate abortions. Is that what you want?

False dichotomy.

Surrendering civil rights will not stop abortion.

The 1st Amendment does not cause abortion.

 

[dblack]

I agree.

Most Catholics today use birth control.. and they should have the right to BC like everyone else.

Not to use BC is a personal choice... and certainly their right.

Do you understand that their right to use birth control has nothing to due with the Catholic Church? The church has no power to take away their rights.

Yes.. I agree.. So why shouldn't it be available to all citizens regardless of creed?

It is available to all. The question is whether religious organizations should be forced to buy it (or rather, buy insurance that funds it) for their employees. The church can't block availability.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Anything that has to be done in secret or makes a person feel like they are violating their faith is not "freedom." If that was the case, the Catholic Church wouldn't be making such a big deal out of it, since they don't have to pay for it.
If you want to consider that as "freedom," you are as uninformed as kg.

I'm sorry. If you don't understand the difference between coercion an religious prohibition, then we simply have fundamentally different conceptions of "freedom". In our country, religious taboos don't carry the weight of law.

Yes we do, you believe in an imaginary and deceptive freedom where you have to keep what you do under cover and go against the very faith that you believe is true in other things.....

I believe in "real" freedom, where I can do what I choose (under the law) without having to lie to myself and others about things that my church claims to be sinful.

Do you have any idea how easy it would be for me to use the Bible to prove you wrong right now? Given that I honestly believe that is wrong, and do try not to post hypocritically, I will just point out my signature and declare that anyone that relies on the law, be it religious or secular, to tell them what they can, and cannot, do, is never free.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

I'm sorry. If you don't understand the difference between coercion an religious prohibition, then we simply have fundamentally different conceptions of "freedom". In our country, religious taboos don't carry the weight of law.

Yes we do, you believe in an imaginary and deceptive freedom where you have to keep what you do under cover and go against the very faith that you believe is true in other things.....

I believe in "real" freedom, where I can do what I choose (under the law) without having to lie to myself and others about things that my church claims to be sinful.

Call it what you like, but any conception of freedom that doesn't recognize the difference between voluntary association and coercion is delusional. What you want is control over others - the power to force your preferences on those who don't agree with you. That's the opposite of what I call freedom.

You should pay attention to this [MENTION=43625]Mertex[/MENTION] because he has argued, more than once, that getting special exemptions to the law based on religious belief is wrong.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

If birth control did prevent stds, we wouldn't have the rampant, treatment resistant, and wildly out of control std rate we do now.

Apparently abortion and contraception CAUSE stds and unwanted pregnancy. I mean, that's what the stats show....it makes me laugh everytime a backward leftwad claims abortion, sex ed and free contraceptives improve the health of our sexually active population. Obviously, that's not true:

"The HIV infection rate for heterosexual African American women in the District’s poorest neighborhoods nearly doubled in two years, from 6.3 percent to 12.1 percent, according to a study released Wednesday by the D.C. Department of Health."

Apparently free abortions and contraceptives increase the likelihood of contracting an STD. Just sayin...them facts are pesky critters.

Harbor Vista Current Image

Ha,ha, you're so uninformed....here you are, arguing that Obamacare is violating the Catholics stance on contraceptives and at the same time arguing that Catholic women are free to take them.......then why worry about it.....it has already been established that the Catholic Church won't have to pay for them.......confused much?

Personally, I think forcing people to pay for things they object to is reprehensible. On top of that, I think the government interfering in personal choice to such an extent that they force women to get permission from a doctor use birth control is absurd. I further believe that both of those combine into an unsupportable and abominable burden on freedom.

You, however, love having the government around to make it harder for everyone to be free just so you can pretend that you are noble.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

A waste of money on litigation the Catholics could be using to help the poor.

I agree.

Most Catholics today use birth control.. and they should have the right to BC like everyone else.

Not to use BC is a personal choice... and certainly their right.

You think everyone has a right to birth control, yet you don't object to the government restricting it. Interesting.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

That second sentence there shows you are misinformed.

In what way?

I've seen no one object to birth control? I've openly stated that I am a supporter of it.

The issue here is one of liberty - you say that the state has the right to dictate to a religious institution that they violate their own doctrine and provide contraception. This is in direct violation of the 1st amendment - so those of us in favor of civil liberty object. The democrats are engaged in a war to end civil liberty, so naturally, you do not object.

No, I don't say that.

You're making things up again.

You did say that in the OP, maybe you forgot.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

I agree.

Most Catholics today use birth control.. and they should have the right to BC like everyone else.

Not to use BC is a personal choice... and certainly their right.

Do you understand that their right to use birth control has nothing to due with the Catholic Church? The church has no power to take away their rights.

Yes.. I agree.. So why shouldn't it be available to all citizens regardless of creed?

My creed is that anyone should be able to buy birth control without asking a doctor for permission. What, exactly, is your creed?

 

[Uncensored2008]

You think everyone has a right to birth control, yet you don't object to the government restricting it. Interesting.

The government doesn't restrict birth control.

A dozen methods are availible over the counter at any Walgreen's or local liquor store. The Pill is regulated because the hormones in it are potentially fatal. Whether there should be regulation of prescription drugs is a very different conversation than this one.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

You think everyone has a right to birth control, yet you don't object to the government restricting it. Interesting.

The government doesn't restrict birth control.

A dozen methods are availible over the counter at any Walgreen's or local liquor store. The Pill is regulated because the hormones in it are potentially fatal. Whether there should be regulation of prescription drugs is a very different conversation than this one.

What the fuck do you call requiring women who want to get the pill to go to the doctor every year, a benefit?

The Pill is perfectly safe. In the 50 years it has been on the market it has never been abused, has not proven to be addictive, and is actually available OTC in most countries. The only reason the government still requires a prescription is that social conservatives and progressives have formed an alliance to deny women access to the pill.

 

[Uncensored2008]

What the fuck do you call requiring women who want to get the pill to go to the doctor every year, a benefit?

Again, the pill is but one of a thousand types of birth control.

Whether drugs that the government considers dangerous should be regulated and only prescribed by a doctor is a very different conversation than the one we are having about the desire of Obama and the democrats to revoke the 1st Amendment.

The Pill is perfectly safe. In the 50 years it has been on the market it has never been abused, has not proven to be addictive, and is actually available OTC in most countries. The only reason the government still requires a prescription is that social conservatives and progressives have formed an alliance to deny women access to the pill.

Argue it to the FDA.

 

[koshergrl]

Any woman can walk into a county clinic and make an appointment and walk out with enough pills for a year.

A nurse practioner sees them, does a screening, a pelvic, and off they go. Free of charge/take medicaid/sliding scale.

No matter who you are.

 

[Uncensored2008]

Any woman can walk into a county clinic and make an appointment and walk out with enough pills for a year.

A nurse practioner sees them, does a screening, a pelvic, and off they go. Free of charge/take medicaid/sliding scale.

No matter who you are.

If not for all the deaths of smokers and women over 35, it probably would be over the counter.

I can't cite this and am too lazy to look it up, but I read a few years back that death was more likely from the pill, than from cocaine.

 

[paperview]

In what way?

I've seen no one object to birth control? I've openly stated that I am a supporter of it.

The issue here is one of liberty - you say that the state has the right to dictate to a religious institution that they violate their own doctrine and provide contraception. This is in direct violation of the 1st amendment - so those of us in favor of civil liberty object. The democrats are engaged in a war to end civil liberty, so naturally, you do not object.

No, I don't say that.

You're making things up again.

You did say that in the OP, maybe you forgot.

You obviously can;t read:

From OP:

"Now, you may agree that religious organizations should not be forced to contribute to a health plan that makes them pay for Birth Control - and I do too,

but do you think the mere act of filing out a form is taking the Religious Liberty exception just a bit too far?

Does religious liberty extend to the right to not have to fill out paperwork?"

 

[koshergrl]

If you agree to find someone else to perform the duty that is against your religion when you fill out that form, yes, it is unconstitutional.

 

[paperview]

If you agree to find someone else to perform the duty that is against your religion when you fill out that form, yes, it is unconstitutional.

Argh!

How many times do you have to be told the nuns DO NOT have to do that.

All they have to do is AFFIRM their objection -- and DONE. Chrissakes, what does it take for you people to understand this?

 

[paperview]

I will add it is *not* unconstitutional...Two words: Conscientious Objectors

 

[koshergrl]

"The Obama administration tried to compromise, saying charities can sign a statement that they object to birth control, and leave it to third-party insurers to pick up the cost."

They have to agree to allow third-party insurers come in and provide that coverage for them. The *form* is a permission slip allowing that..and THAT is the objection. If they refuse to do it because it is against their religion, then of course they aren't going to give permission for someone else to do it in their place. That's crazy.

DOJ Expected To Defend Health Law's Contraceptive Mandate : NPR

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

If you agree to find someone else to perform the duty that is against your religion when you fill out that form, yes, it is unconstitutional.

Argh!

How many times do you have to be told the nuns DO NOT have to do that.

All they have to do is AFFIRM their objection -- and DONE. Chrissakes, what does it take for you people to understand this?

Stop being conservatives.

And as is typical of most conservatives, they’ve contrived this issue into a partisan controversy, a political weapon they perceive useful in combating their opponents.

Consequently, they’re going to ignore the facts and truth and continue to propagate the lies they created.

But you knew all this already.

 

[koshergrl]

This is about recanting, folks.