Before Racing To National Healthcare: Listen

[Seraega]

The lack of a single payer healthcare system is killing American business.

We can't compete because every other Western democracy has a single payer system, and they pay HALF per capita what we pay for healthcare.

This is why I don't understand the opposition to universal health care. It's not just bankrupting families... look what it's doing to General Motors.

 

[DiamondDave]

The lack of a single payer healthcare system is killing American business.

We can't compete because every other Western democracy has a single payer system, and they pay HALF per capita what we pay for healthcare.

This is why I don't understand the opposition to universal health care. It's not just bankrupting families... look what it's doing to General Motors.

Nah... the union labor rates at 2X what other autoworkers are paid by companies in the US have NOTHING to do with it.... or the other outrageous parts of unionized labor contracts?? Or nothing to do with other faulty design and business practices... It must be ALL health care

Not to mention that we, with our health care system have the most advanced procedures and more advances of ANY medical system in the world...

Reforming health care so that more types of different groups can get group rates... fine... reforming frivolous lawsuits so that doctors and hospitals do not have to pass on the costs of HUGE malpractice insurance to patients... Fine....

But single payer government provided healthcare is NOT the answer

 

[Nik]

The lack of a single payer healthcare system is killing American business.

We can't compete because every other Western democracy has a single payer system, and they pay HALF per capita what we pay for healthcare.

This is why I don't understand the opposition to universal health care. It's not just bankrupting families... look what it's doing to General Motors.

Nah... the union labor rates at 2X what other autoworkers are paid by companies in the US have NOTHING to do with it.... or the other outrageous parts of unionized labor contracts?? Or nothing to do with other faulty design and business practices... It must be ALL health care

Not to mention that we, with our health care system have the most advanced procedures and more advances of ANY medical system in the world...

Reforming health care so that more types of different groups can get group rates... fine... reforming frivolous lawsuits so that doctors and hospitals do not have to pass on the costs of HUGE malpractice insurance to patients... Fine....

But single payer government provided healthcare is NOT the answer

Awesome...we have the most advances, just nobody can afford to use them.

 

[Cecilie1200]

No...you don't get it. The people voted with the expectation of getting health care for all. Like police for all...fire department for all...education for all. The me first screw everybody else party lost. Cry all you want. When health care passes you don't have to go to the doctor under that umbrella. Just keep paying the insurance vultures until they deny you coverage. Before you fall back onto the national coverage be sure to come back here and beg forgiveness for being such a thoughtless selfish little neo con.

ROFLMNAO...

This nation is not governed on the 'will of the people'... it is NOT a social Democracy... it is a CONSTITUTIONAL REPUBLIC... one based upon valid and sustainable human rights...

YOU DO NOT HAVE A RIGHT TO THE PRODUCT OF ANOTHER MAN'S LABOR! PERIOD...

And there is NO MEANS OF FUNDING YOUR HEALTHCARE WITHIN THAT IMMUTABLE FACT... UNLESS YOU FUND IT.

Want healthcare INSURANCE... FUND IT YOURSELF...

Actually the government has the right to tax the people, and can spend that on whatever it damn well pleases. So yes the government can fund things with other peoples labor. Don't like it? Tough shit. But thats the way it is.

Actually, while the government has the right to tax the people, it does NOT have the right to spend it on whatever it damned well pleases. So no, the government cannot LEGITIMATELY fund things with other people's labor. It simply gets away with doing so illegitimately because uneducated ignoramuses like you sit around, prattling away as though you know something instead of actually knowing something.

 

[Nik]

ROFLMNAO...

This nation is not governed on the 'will of the people'... it is NOT a social Democracy... it is a CONSTITUTIONAL REPUBLIC... one based upon valid and sustainable human rights...

YOU DO NOT HAVE A RIGHT TO THE PRODUCT OF ANOTHER MAN'S LABOR! PERIOD...

And there is NO MEANS OF FUNDING YOUR HEALTHCARE WITHIN THAT IMMUTABLE FACT... UNLESS YOU FUND IT.

Want healthcare INSURANCE... FUND IT YOURSELF...

Actually the government has the right to tax the people, and can spend that on whatever it damn well pleases. So yes the government can fund things with other peoples labor. Don't like it? Tough shit. But thats the way it is.

Actually, while the government has the right to tax the people, it does NOT have the right to spend it on whatever it damned well pleases. So no, the government cannot LEGITIMATELY fund things with other people's labor. It simply gets away with doing so illegitimately because uneducated ignoramuses like you sit around, prattling away as though you know something instead of actually knowing something.

Actually, yes, it pretty much can. Probably the only limits would be to fund things that are specifically prohibited by the constitution (funding for torture, and the like....oh wait, but those are actually ok to Republicans ).

This is how the Feds got around a lot of the Constitutional limits on them. They don't mandate that states do something, they just won't give them any money if they don't do it. So, yes, they can do pretty much whatever they like with it.

 

[Cecilie1200]

Ok. Then please stop using the roads, bridges, tunnels, or subsidized public transport. If you get mugged, well you'll just have to deal. House catches on fire? Poor you. After all, none of us want to contribute to your well being either.

How do you equate contributing to things I actually use with contributing to YOUR health care? I drive on bridges and roads, so I don't mind paying for them. It's MY house, so I don't mind paying to have it protected. The fact that you ALSO contribute to and use those things is ancillary. Please tell me in what way I, personally, am using YOUR health care. When did YOU become a public utility, dumbass?

No, actually, I don't use your bridges and roads. But you get the benefit of them because other people helped to pay for them. But until you want to pay for those things fully out of your own pocket, or get together some of your fellow citizens to pay for them, you argument about healthcare is meaningless. You are merely another of those selfish individuals who is more than willing to let others pay for things you use, but aren't willing to pay for what others use.

Look, imbecile, I'm not interested in trying to have a serious political debate with a doofus who wants to either 1) pretend he's a fucking hermit, and that that impacts anything, or 2) wants to ridiculously parse issues based on irrelevancies like whether or not you live in the same state I do. I will state this one time, and if you are not able to rise to the correct rung of the evolutionary ladder to discuss it like something more than a chimpanzee in the zoo flinging his feces at the crowd, you may join others of your species on ignore. So take notes, and think about your response hard.

Roads, bridges, police and fire departments are all PUBLIC UTILITIES, of direct and personal use and benefit to the people who pay for them. Your healthcare is of no direct and personal use to anyone but you, and YOU are of no direct and personal use to ANYONE. So they are not comparable, and until you and your healthcare become useful directly to me and my life, I have no intention of contributing money as though they are. Got it?

And you're damned right I'm selfish, and fucking proud of it, and certainly not about to hang my head in shame because an even MORE selfish - not to mention ignorant - twit like YOU tries to make me feel bad for keeping what I earned instead of letting him take what he didn't. Try that guilt shit on someone you aren't robbing at the point of the government's gun.

 

[Cecilie1200]

You are merely another of those selfish individuals who is more than willing to let others pay for things you use, but aren't willing to pay for what others use.

this statement Nic is a little confusing......Cee is also paying for the things she uses,along with the others.....and she is also paying for what those others are using.....

She is paying for those (although she doesn't realize it). But she is only willing to pay for things she, herself, may use. This is without realizing that everyone else chips in to pay for the things SHE uses, whether we use them or not.

I fully realize that I'm paying for things that other people are using, ass hat. The operative point here is that I don't mind paying for them because I am ALSO using them. And I'm not asking them to pay for something that only I use, as you are. I won't be using your healthcare, and quite frankly, the more you talk, the more of a liability I consider it to keep you alive, anyway. So why the hell should I pay for it?

but he is still NOT an American citizen and if he is counted as part of those millions without Ins.,he will still figure in the numbers of the non-citizens.... "

And? Whether someone is a citizen or not in this country, if they are here legally, they have rights.

so then whats the big deal?....i thought that this would NEVER happen with Uni.Ins.....this was one of the big gripes with the private Companies.... "

You thought wrong, and nobody ever claimed that. Some treatments are just too expensive. But there is no reason for people who have treatable, fairly cheap diseases being not treated because they don't have the money. And then we all get to pay lots and lots when they go into the ER because the longer you wait before treating a disease, the worse it gets.

Thats besides the fact that just because you have money you don't have more of a right to life than anyone else.

You have a right to life, which means you have a right not to be killed. It doesn't mean you have a right to have other people sustain your life for you.

 

[Cecilie1200]

This is why I don't understand the opposition to universal health care. It's not just bankrupting families... look what it's doing to General Motors.

Nah... the union labor rates at 2X what other autoworkers are paid by companies in the US have NOTHING to do with it.... or the other outrageous parts of unionized labor contracts?? Or nothing to do with other faulty design and business practices... It must be ALL health care

Not to mention that we, with our health care system have the most advanced procedures and more advances of ANY medical system in the world...

Reforming health care so that more types of different groups can get group rates... fine... reforming frivolous lawsuits so that doctors and hospitals do not have to pass on the costs of HUGE malpractice insurance to patients... Fine....

But single payer government provided healthcare is NOT the answer

Awesome...we have the most advances, just nobody can afford to use them.

Ah, childishly simplistic generalizations. Can't have a good liberal viewpoint without 'em.

 

[Nik]

How do you equate contributing to things I actually use with contributing to YOUR health care? I drive on bridges and roads, so I don't mind paying for them. It's MY house, so I don't mind paying to have it protected. The fact that you ALSO contribute to and use those things is ancillary. Please tell me in what way I, personally, am using YOUR health care. When did YOU become a public utility, dumbass?

No, actually, I don't use your bridges and roads. But you get the benefit of them because other people helped to pay for them. But until you want to pay for those things fully out of your own pocket, or get together some of your fellow citizens to pay for them, you argument about healthcare is meaningless. You are merely another of those selfish individuals who is more than willing to let others pay for things you use, but aren't willing to pay for what others use.

Look, imbecile, I'm not interested in trying to have a serious political debate with a doofus who wants to either 1) pretend he's a fucking hermit, and that that impacts anything, or 2) wants to ridiculously parse issues based on irrelevancies like whether or not you live in the same state I do. I will state this one time, and if you are not able to rise to the correct rung of the evolutionary ladder to discuss it like something more than a chimpanzee in the zoo flinging his feces at the crowd, you may join others of your species on ignore. So take notes, and think about your response hard.

Roads, bridges, police and fire departments are all PUBLIC UTILITIES, of direct and personal use and benefit to the people who pay for them. Your healthcare is of no direct and personal use to anyone but you, and YOU are of no direct and personal use to ANYONE. So they are not comparable, and until you and your healthcare become useful directly to me and my life, I have no intention of contributing money as though they are. Got it?

And you're damned right I'm selfish, and fucking proud of it, and certainly not about to hang my head in shame because an even MORE selfish - not to mention ignorant - twit like YOU tries to make me feel bad for keeping what I earned instead of letting him take what he didn't. Try that guilt shit on someone you aren't robbing at the point of the government's gun.

Wow...sorry I missed the nugget from up above. Healthcare can be treated as a public utility...its the healthcare that is the public utility, not the individual. Same goes for roads, police, etc, etc.

Please explain to me this. I don't give a shit if you get robbed. I don't give a shit if you get murdered. I don't give a shit if you get beaten up. So tell me again why I need to pay for the police to protect your sorry ass, if you can't protect yourself?

Hospitals, and doctors, are also of "of direct and personal use and benefit to the people who pay for them." However, your safety is of interest to nobody but yourself. So please do try to explain the difference between healthcare and the cops again?

And next time, try to avoid assuming asinine shit about my personal life and my own healthcare status. Do try and keep the debate at least somewhat coherent, although I know it must be hard for you.

 

[Nik]

this statement Nic is a little confusing......Cee is also paying for the things she uses,along with the others.....and she is also paying for what those others are using.....

She is paying for those (although she doesn't realize it). But she is only willing to pay for things she, herself, may use. This is without realizing that everyone else chips in to pay for the things SHE uses, whether we use them or not.

I fully realize that I'm paying for things that other people are using, ass hat. The operative point here is that I don't mind paying for them because I am ALSO using them. And I'm not asking them to pay for something that only I use, as you are. I won't be using your healthcare, and quite frankly, the more you talk, the more of a liability I consider it to keep you alive, anyway. So why the hell should I pay for it?

And? Whether someone is a citizen or not in this country, if they are here legally, they have rights.

so then whats the big deal?....i thought that this would NEVER happen with Uni.Ins.....this was one of the big gripes with the private Companies.... "

You thought wrong, and nobody ever claimed that. Some treatments are just too expensive. But there is no reason for people who have treatable, fairly cheap diseases being not treated because they don't have the money. And then we all get to pay lots and lots when they go into the ER because the longer you wait before treating a disease, the worse it gets.

Thats besides the fact that just because you have money you don't have more of a right to life than anyone else.

You have a right to life, which means you have a right not to be killed. It doesn't mean you have a right to have other people sustain your life for you.

No, you won't be using "my" healthcare, dumbshit. But you WILL be using healthcare. I assume that even you have the decent common sense to see a doctor, dentist, and the like.

 

[Cecilie1200]

Actually the government has the right to tax the people, and can spend that on whatever it damn well pleases. So yes the government can fund things with other peoples labor. Don't like it? Tough shit. But thats the way it is.

Actually, while the government has the right to tax the people, it does NOT have the right to spend it on whatever it damned well pleases. So no, the government cannot LEGITIMATELY fund things with other people's labor. It simply gets away with doing so illegitimately because uneducated ignoramuses like you sit around, prattling away as though you know something instead of actually knowing something.

Actually, yes, it pretty much can. Probably the only limits would be to fund things that are specifically prohibited by the constitution (funding for torture, and the like....oh wait, but those are actually ok to Republicans ).

This is how the Feds got around a lot of the Constitutional limits on them. They don't mandate that states do something, they just won't give them any money if they don't do it. So, yes, they can do pretty much whatever they like with it.

What part of the word "legitimately" did you not understand? Was it the fact that it has more than one syllable? Maybe you LIKE living in a country where the government runs wild and ignores the people, and that's why you blithely encourage it with your apathy. Or maybe you're just too damned stupid to realize what you're doing. I favor the latter explanation.

 

[jeffrockit]

Dick Cheney, George Bush, John Boehner, your parents, my parents, and retired military vets are all on taxpayer funded public healthcare. And I haven't heard them complaining about it.


why don't we ask them how they like it, rather than rely on the opinons of a rightwing blog author?

aparently RD you have never met an elderly person that has the "GOVT. FUNDED HEALTHCARE"......my parents had it and when both needed care beyond what MEDICARE would cover,in order to get the needed care we were going to have to sell ALL their assets and turn their house over to the Govt.....and then they would cover what they needed.....yea great system....i am sure the elderly are eagerly waiting to turn their assets over to the govt.in return for needed care....

And, wait till the government begins to run out of money for healthcare and they start to ration it. When they decide that a 75 year old man that needs hip replacement will not get it because he is no longer paying into the system, but a 35 year old still has earning potential. The left lives in this utopia like dream world and think that the money supply for all of these programs is limitless. When it becomes a mess, they will be the first to start screaming for something to be done.

 

[Nik]

Actually, while the government has the right to tax the people, it does NOT have the right to spend it on whatever it damned well pleases. So no, the government cannot LEGITIMATELY fund things with other people's labor. It simply gets away with doing so illegitimately because uneducated ignoramuses like you sit around, prattling away as though you know something instead of actually knowing something.

Actually, yes, it pretty much can. Probably the only limits would be to fund things that are specifically prohibited by the constitution (funding for torture, and the like....oh wait, but those are actually ok to Republicans ).

This is how the Feds got around a lot of the Constitutional limits on them. They don't mandate that states do something, they just won't give them any money if they don't do it. So, yes, they can do pretty much whatever they like with it.

What part of the word "legitimately" did you not understand? Was it the fact that it has more than one syllable? Maybe you LIKE living in a country where the government runs wild and ignores the people, and that's why you blithely encourage it with your apathy. Or maybe you're just too damned stupid to realize what you're doing. I favor the latter explanation.

Ah yes, legitimately. And tell me, dear moron, who decides whether its legitimate or not? I'll tell you, since you seem to be too stupid to know: The Constitution decides, which is what I referenced. Your asinine views on whether its legitimate or not really doesn't matter. So you think its illegitimate? Nobody gives a fuck. What the Constitution says matters. What you decide in your little fantasy land is legitimate or not doesn't.

And the government isn't "ignoring people". 2/3rds of the American public want a government sponsored healthcare plan. What it is doing is ignoring radical fringe elements like you who just assume your views are always in the majority and that you get to decide for everyone else what is legitimate and whats not.

 

[jeffrockit]

Yours.

Yeah, Heaven Forbid you should be asked to contribute to the health and welfare of the citizens of your country. Since you got yours, fuck no.

Damned right, Heaven forbid I should be FORCED to contribute to you. I got mine, go get your own, and get over the idea that you and other, greedy strangers like you have any right to take away from the people I actually care about.

What the left doesn't get, and I realize there are exceptions, is that if you keep giving handouts to people, they will have no motivation to work. The whole welfare state just perpetuates more of the same.

 

[Nik]

Yeah, Heaven Forbid you should be asked to contribute to the health and welfare of the citizens of your country. Since you got yours, fuck no.

Damned right, Heaven forbid I should be FORCED to contribute to you. I got mine, go get your own, and get over the idea that you and other, greedy strangers like you have any right to take away from the people I actually care about.

What the left doesn't get, and I realize there are exceptions, is that if you keep giving handouts to people, they will have no motivation to work. The whole welfare state just perpetuates more of the same.

Yes, of course. In Sweden people sometimes starve to death because there isn't enough food on the shelves because nobody is farming. Why isn't anyone farming? Life is too cushy, and nobody wants to work. They are almost as bad as Zimbabwe these days.

Or, you know, not. People don't work just so they can get healthcare. They like nice things as well. Making it so someone has to work in order not to die of a easily treatable illness is pretty fucked.

 

[jeffrockit]

Damned right, Heaven forbid I should be FORCED to contribute to you. I got mine, go get your own, and get over the idea that you and other, greedy strangers like you have any right to take away from the people I actually care about.

What the left doesn't get, and I realize there are exceptions, is that if you keep giving handouts to people, they will have no motivation to work. The whole welfare state just perpetuates more of the same.

Yes, of course. In Sweden people sometimes starve to death because there isn't enough food on the shelves because nobody is farming. Why isn't anyone farming? Life is too cushy, and nobody wants to work. They are almost as bad as Zimbabwe these days.

Or, you know, not. People don't work just so they can get healthcare. They like nice things as well. Making it so someone has to work in order not to die of a easily treatable illness is pretty fucked.

And making someone else pay for another's healthcare because some are working the system is also pretty screwed up. This argument will go on forever. When the system is in place and people are still dying because the gov. is rationing, or has a long waiting time for simple tests or other people's money has been exhausted and the program can't be funded properly or a non-medical government official is making health decisions for you, the screams from both sides will be loud.

 

[Seraega]

The lack of a single payer healthcare system is killing American business.

We can't compete because every other Western democracy has a single payer system, and they pay HALF per capita what we pay for healthcare.

This is why I don't understand the opposition to universal health care. It's not just bankrupting families... look what it's doing to General Motors.

Nah... the union labor rates at 2X what other autoworkers are paid by companies in the US have NOTHING to do with it.... or the other outrageous parts of unionized labor contracts?? Or nothing to do with other faulty design and business practices... It must be ALL health care

Not to mention that we, with our health care system have the most advanced procedures and more advances of ANY medical system in the world...

Reforming health care so that more types of different groups can get group rates... fine... reforming frivolous lawsuits so that doctors and hospitals do not have to pass on the costs of HUGE malpractice insurance to patients... Fine....

But single payer government provided healthcare is NOT the answer

I bet you believe that the average UAW worker makes $75 an hour don't you? That's what Fox and Rush told you so it must be true. The number has been debunked. The fact is that UAW employees in Michigan make almost exactly the same wages and benefits ($47-50/hr) as employees for Honda and Toyota make in the south. The difference is those foreign companies don't have legacy costs... yet.

Colorado Media Matters - KOA's Caldara repeated $75 per hour autoworker falsehood despite GM's statements to the contrary

Learn to tell truth from fiction. It will help you get along in this world.

 

[Seraega]

What the left doesn't get, and I realize there are exceptions, is that if you keep giving handouts to people, they will have no motivation to work. The whole welfare state just perpetuates more of the same.

Yes, of course. In Sweden people sometimes starve to death because there isn't enough food on the shelves because nobody is farming. Why isn't anyone farming? Life is too cushy, and nobody wants to work. They are almost as bad as Zimbabwe these days.

Or, you know, not. People don't work just so they can get healthcare. They like nice things as well. Making it so someone has to work in order not to die of a easily treatable illness is pretty fucked.

And making someone else pay for another's healthcare because some are working the system is also pretty screwed up. This argument will go on forever. When the system is in place and people are still dying because the gov. is rationing, or has a long waiting time for simple tests or other people's money has been exhausted and the program can't be funded properly or a non-medical government official is making health decisions for you, the screams from both sides will be loud.

Nobody is working the system. What you're failing to realize is that the real moochers are ALREADY getting free government insurance, it's called Medicaid. It's the middle class that's getting screwed and has been for decades. We're not rich enough to afford to buy our own coverage, we're not poor enough to be on the government dole.

Your argument that we're "working the system" is complete bullshit. Most of us are working hard to provide for our families and every day are living in fear of losing our ability to do so. We're afraid that some small accident may incapacitate us and leave us unable to take care of ourselves. Lucky for you, at that point we will be in the system completely free Medicaid, yay!!!!

 

[DiamondDave]

This is why I don't understand the opposition to universal health care. It's not just bankrupting families... look what it's doing to General Motors.

Nah... the union labor rates at 2X what other autoworkers are paid by companies in the US have NOTHING to do with it.... or the other outrageous parts of unionized labor contracts?? Or nothing to do with other faulty design and business practices... It must be ALL health care

Not to mention that we, with our health care system have the most advanced procedures and more advances of ANY medical system in the world...

Reforming health care so that more types of different groups can get group rates... fine... reforming frivolous lawsuits so that doctors and hospitals do not have to pass on the costs of HUGE malpractice insurance to patients... Fine....

But single payer government provided healthcare is NOT the answer

I bet you believe that the average UAW worker makes $75 an hour don't you? That's what Fox and Rush told you so it must be true. The number has been debunked. The fact is that UAW employees in Michigan make almost exactly the same wages and benefits ($47-50/hr) as employees for Honda and Toyota make in the south. The difference is those foreign companies don't have legacy costs... yet.

Colorado Media Matters - KOA's Caldara repeated $75 per hour autoworker falsehood despite GM's statements to the contrary

Learn to tell truth from fiction. It will help you get along in this world.

Listen banana crammer

1st.. I do not listen to Rush or Savage or whatever other ones left wingers spout out about because they are afraid of them...
2nd... Union workers for GM/Ford/etc DO make more with wage and benefits compensation than American workers for Toyota, Nissan, etc
3rd.. Media matters... oh, that is RICH... nah, you're not a left winger

 

[HUGGY]

Nah... the union labor rates at 2X what other autoworkers are paid by companies in the US have NOTHING to do with it.... or the other outrageous parts of unionized labor contracts?? Or nothing to do with other faulty design and business practices... It must be ALL health care

Not to mention that we, with our health care system have the most advanced procedures and more advances of ANY medical system in the world...

Reforming health care so that more types of different groups can get group rates... fine... reforming frivolous lawsuits so that doctors and hospitals do not have to pass on the costs of HUGE malpractice insurance to patients... Fine....

But single payer government provided healthcare is NOT the answer

I bet you believe that the average UAW worker makes $75 an hour don't you? That's what Fox and Rush told you so it must be true. The number has been debunked. The fact is that UAW employees in Michigan make almost exactly the same wages and benefits ($47-50/hr) as employees for Honda and Toyota make in the south. The difference is those foreign companies don't have legacy costs... yet.

Colorado Media Matters - KOA's Caldara repeated $75 per hour autoworker falsehood despite GM's statements to the contrary

Learn to tell truth from fiction. It will help you get along in this world.

Listen banana crammer

1st.. I do not listen to Rush or Savage or whatever other ones left wingers spout out about because they are afraid of them...
2nd... Union workers for GM/Ford/etc DO make more with wage and benefits compensation than American workers for Toyota, Nissan, etc
3rd.. Media matters... oh, that is RICH... nah, you're not a left winger

Maybe we should get rid of veterans hospitals. Only about 10% of the vets actually fight. The rest are getting paid for thier service. It was thier choice to join up not mine. If they are dumb enough to hop too just because a moron like Bush says so ..well they should have thought it out better.

Point is that almost everyone contributes to society. Everyone pays some taxes. Everyone born here or those that migrated legally have a dog in the fight.

I submit that you should rethink who you believe the enemy is.