Baptism for the dead

[aris2chat]

Was it a lack of faith in Jesus that he taught us and showed us how to be baptized? As quoted in my posts above, Jesus had his disciples baptize more people than John the Baptist. Do you find the Lord lacking because he wanted us all to be baptized? Do you not believe that you must be born of the water and the spirit as Jesus taught to enter his kingdom?

Jesus never baptized even one single person.

Did you never wonder why?

John wanted jesus to baptise him, but jesus did not

 

[hobelim]

Was it a lack of faith in Jesus that he taught us and showed us how to be baptized? As quoted in my posts above, Jesus had his disciples baptize more people than John the Baptist. Do you find the Lord lacking because he wanted us all to be baptized? Do you not believe that you must be born of the water and the spirit as Jesus taught to enter his kingdom?

Jesus never baptized even one single person.

Did you never wonder why?

John wanted jesus to baptise him, but jesus did not

exactly. The author made a point of showing that Jesus did not baptize, the question why is like a X on a treasure map marking a place where something of great value is buried and hidden.

 

[AsherN]

The most disgusting thing about Mormon "baptizing" the dead is that they often go after non-Mormon and non-Christians. They've been doing it to the Jews for a long time.

Big waste of time Asher so who cares ??

it's disrespectful. More so when they were going around baptizing victims of the Shoah.

 

[onefour1]

Was it a lack of faith in Jesus that he taught us and showed us how to be baptized? As quoted in my posts above, Jesus had his disciples baptize more people than John the Baptist. Do you find the Lord lacking because he wanted us all to be baptized? Do you not believe that you must be born of the water and the spirit as Jesus taught to enter his kingdom?

Was Jesus speaking to the dead or those living? Not one Gospel passage has Jesus urging people to baptize the dead. Nor did John the Baptist. Further, the LDS Church re-baptizes those who have already been baptized. Christians believe in one baptism. Such is our faith.

Prayers for those who have passed on are welcome. Your Ordinances are not. To me it is inconceivable that someone would speak in my stead the words of your ordinance--one I have no belief in.

I'm not alone in repudiating this practice. The LDS Church has already felt the need to apologize to Jews. Further apologies are due because Jews are not the only ones who feel horrifically violated. If you honor our free will, then please show it.

Jesus was speaking of all mankind. As I've mentioned above, the dead are a disembodied spirit until they are resurrected and still have a chance to repent and accept the gospel. If they still reject it after their death, the baptism will avail them nothing. It is their free will that determines whether they enter the kingdom of God or not. The baptism by itself will not get them into the kingdom of heaven. It is only there because it is a required ordinance that we can perform for the dead so that if they accept the gospel, they will not be without baptism. On the other hand, if they accept the gospel, they will be allowed to enter the kingdom of God because baptism was done in their behalf as the Lord requires. It is all up to them and they still have a mind of their own and can choose for themselves not have their posterity make that choice for them. This how we honor their free will and show it!

 

[onefour1]

Was it a lack of faith in Jesus that he taught us and showed us how to be baptized? As quoted in my posts above, Jesus had his disciples baptize more people than John the Baptist. Do you find the Lord lacking because he wanted us all to be baptized? Do you not believe that you must be born of the water and the spirit as Jesus taught to enter his kingdom?

Jesus never baptized even one single person.

Did you never wonder why?

All though the scriptures say that Jesus did not perform the baptism, more baptisms were done by this apostles who were with him most of the time. Never did Jesus reprimand his disciples for baptizing and the scriptures tell us that they baptized more than John. And as mentioned in previous posts, Jesus taught that it was a requirement of all men to be baptized in order to enter the kingdom of God.

 

[onefour1]

It is only disrespectful in the minds of those who oppose baptism for the dead. If a disembodied spirit realizes that he needs to have baptism and wishes that one would perform that ordinance for him in his behalf so that he could enter the kingdom of God, then the spirits posterity who places a road block to his baptism is the one being disrespectful. On the other hand, if the disembodied spirit rejects the gospel, then nothing is really changed because the baptism for the dead does not force any soul into heaven. It is of no effect. It is only the free will of the dead person's spirit that can and should make that choice.

 

[Meriweather]

It is only disrespectful in the minds of those who oppose baptism for the dead. If a disembodied spirit realizes that he needs to have baptism and wishes that one would perform that ordinance for him in his behalf so that he could enter the kingdom of God, then the spirits posterity who places a road block to his baptism is the one being disrespectful. On the other hand, if the disembodied spirit rejects the gospel, then nothing is really changed because the baptism for the dead does not force any soul into heaven. It is of no effect. It is only the free will of the dead person's spirit that can and should make that choice.

A disembodied spirit does not need to have a baptism. Nor should anyone speak for a disembodied spirit.

 

[onefour1]

John 3:5
5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

no exclusion for the dead. Show me where in the bible it states that the dead need no baptism.

 

[aris2chat]

Was it a lack of faith in Jesus that he taught us and showed us how to be baptized? As quoted in my posts above, Jesus had his disciples baptize more people than John the Baptist. Do you find the Lord lacking because he wanted us all to be baptized? Do you not believe that you must be born of the water and the spirit as Jesus taught to enter his kingdom?

Was Jesus speaking to the dead or those living? Not one Gospel passage has Jesus urging people to baptize the dead. Nor did John the Baptist. Further, the LDS Church re-baptizes those who have already been baptized. Christians believe in one baptism. Such is our faith.

Prayers for those who have passed on are welcome. Your Ordinances are not. To me it is inconceivable that someone would speak in my stead the words of your ordinance--one I have no belief in.

I'm not alone in repudiating this practice. The LDS Church has already felt the need to apologize to Jews. Further apologies are due because Jews are not the only ones who feel horrifically violated. If you honor our free will, then please show it.

Jesus was speaking of all mankind. As I've mentioned above, the dead are a disembodied spirit until they are resurrected and still have a chance to repent and accept the gospel. If they still reject it after their death, the baptism will avail them nothing. It is their free will that determines whether they enter the kingdom of God or not. The baptism by itself will not get them into the kingdom of heaven. It is only there because it is a required ordinance that we can perform for the dead so that if they accept the gospel, they will not be without baptism. On the other hand, if they accept the gospel, they will be allowed to enter the kingdom of God because baptism was done in their behalf as the Lord requires. It is all up to them and they still have a mind of their own and can choose for themselves not have their posterity make that choice for them. This how we honor their free will and show it!

My children were not baptized. I let them choose their own faith, and practice how they saw fit. They were exposed to most faiths because of me.

Don't interfere with their choice and try to baptize them unless they ask. Don't do it when they are dead.

Don't impose your beliefs on the living or dead without their full consent.

Some christians still see LDS as heretics or not a real religion since so much is based on lies of your founder. Some practices are abhorrent to many christians.

Leave the dead alone. If there is a god, and some judgement, it will be on the totality of their lives not because you baptized their dead bodies/graves.

Leave those who are not LDS alone. Their journey, in life or death, is not yours.

 

[Meriweather]

Jesus was speaking of all mankind. As I've mentioned above, the dead are a disembodied spirit until they are resurrected and still have a chance to repent and accept the gospel. If they still reject it after their death, the baptism will avail them nothing. It is their free will that determines whether they enter the kingdom of God or not. The baptism by itself will not get them into the kingdom of heaven. It is only there because it is a required ordinance that we can perform for the dead so that if they accept the gospel, they will not be without baptism. On the other hand, if they accept the gospel, they will be allowed to enter the kingdom of God because baptism was done in their behalf as the Lord requires. It is all up to them and they still have a mind of their own and can choose for themselves not have their posterity make that choice for them. This how we honor their free will and show it!

Is it your belief or all of mankind's belief that people have until they are resurrected to accept the gospel? If it is your church's belief, and not the belief/experience of all of mankind, then what right have you to impose your beliefs upon the belief's of others?

Jesus did not require an "ordinance". Your church decided to make their ordinance a requirement for all. Instead of trusting in an earthly "ordinance" many of the rest of us choose to trust in God. Such is the greater faith that we don't wish anyone to trample upon.

 

[Meriweather]

John 3:5
5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

no exclusion for the dead. Show me where in the bible it states that the dead need no baptism.

A man born...not a disembodied spirit.

 

[hobelim]

Was it a lack of faith in Jesus that he taught us and showed us how to be baptized? As quoted in my posts above, Jesus had his disciples baptize more people than John the Baptist. Do you find the Lord lacking because he wanted us all to be baptized? Do you not believe that you must be born of the water and the spirit as Jesus taught to enter his kingdom?

Jesus never baptized even one single person.

Did you never wonder why?

All though the scriptures say that Jesus did not perform the baptism, more baptisms were done by this apostles who were with him most of the time. Never did Jesus reprimand his disciples for baptizing and the scriptures tell us that they baptized more than John. And as mentioned in previous posts, Jesus taught that it was a requirement of all men to be baptized in order to enter the kingdom of God.

Yes, Jesus said that one must be born of water and spirit to enter the kingdom of God. Jesus also said that he would give living water and that his words were both spirit and life and that the disciples were washed clean by his words.

it looks like baptism has nothing whatever to do with H2O.

John said that Jesus would baptize with fire and the holy spirit.

What does that mean to you? In what way is that baptism, with fire and the holy spirit, evident in scripture?

 

[aris2chat]

John 3:5
5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

no exclusion for the dead. Show me where in the bible it states that the dead need no baptism.

Jesus was speaking to a Pharisee about jewish matters of the spirit.

Jews have ritual baths for purity and for those who become jews by their free choice after studying the faith. Your splash of water and words are not necessary nor welcome unless ask for during life.

 

[onefour1]

What was it that the Lord taught his disciples, even by example?

Matthew 28:18-20
18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

It is the will of the Jesus that his disciples go into all the nations and baptize.

John 3:22-30
22 After these things came Jesus and his disciples into the land of Judæa; and there he tarried with them, and baptized.
23 And John also was baptizing in Ænon near to Salim, because there was much water there: and they came, and were baptized.
24 For John was not yet cast into prison.
25 Then there arose a question between some of John’s disciples and the Jews about purifying.
26 And they came unto John, and said unto him, Rabbi, he that was with thee beyond Jordan, to whom thou barest witness, behold, the same baptizeth, and all men come to him.
27 John answered and said, A man can receive nothing, except it be given him from heaven.
28 Ye yourselves bear me witness, that I said, I am not the Christ, but that I am sent before him.
29 He that hath the bride is the bridegroom: but the friend of the bridegroom, which standeth and heareth him, rejoiceth greatly because of the bridegroom’s voice: this my joy therefore is fulfilled.
30 He must increase, but I must decrease.

Mark 16:15-16
15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Luke 7:29-30
29 And all the people that heard him, and the publicans, justified God, being baptized with the baptism of John.
30 But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the counsel of God against themselves, being not baptized of him.

 

[onefour1]

We do not impose our religion on anyone. I will liken it to a free ticket to watch a movie or play. We create the ticket with the individuals name on it and place it in will call. Without the ticket the person cannot be a member of the viewing audience. It is strictly up to that person to go to the will call and pick up that ticket to become a member of the audience. Nobody is forcing the person to be a member of the audience. It is strictly their choice.

Now another play or movie across the street doesn't like the fact that the first movie is offering free will call tickets. So they seek to have it stopped. If the individual, who may originally not have wanted to view the play or movie changes his mind and decides he wants the will call ticket, would it be fair to him to have his choice restricted? If he decides to not see the play or movie, was anything imposed upon him? No! It is nothing more than an offer.

 

[Meriweather]

We do not impose our religion on anyone. I will liken it to a free ticket to watch a movie or play. We create the ticket with the individuals name on it and place it in will call. Without the ticket the person cannot be a member of the viewing audience. It is strictly up to that person to go to the will call and pick up that ticket to become a member of the audience. Nobody is forcing the person to be a member of the audience. It is strictly their choice.

Now another play or movie across the street doesn't like the fact that the first movie is offering free will call tickets. So they seek to have it stopped. If the individual, who may originally not have wanted to view the play or movie changes his mind and decides he wants the will call ticket, would it be fair to him to have his choice restricted? If he decides to not see the play or movie, was anything imposed upon him? No! It is nothing more than an offer.

What a horrible analogy. Let's liken it to a free ticket to watch a pornographic movie or play; an offer of candy to a known diabetic; or pork for Maccabees brothers. Do you accept those analogies? Of course not. Now you understand why we won't accept your analogy?

Why can't you understand how offensive it is to baptize (and re-baptize) life-long individuals of another faith?

 

[onefour1]

It really shouldn't matter whether baptism is offensive to you or anyone else. The offer of baptism is unto the dead. They have the choice of whether they want to receive it or not. So lets suppose that they accept the baptism of the dead. Obviously if they do, then they are not offended by it. Only you would be offended by it. You seem to think that it is offensive for us to offer them baptism. Why? Because you don't believe it? If they are alive after death, shouldn't they still be allowed to make their own decisions? Why are you self appointing yourself as their decision maker? If they don't want the baptism, they can simply reject it and it has no bearing. However, if they desire it and want to receive it, then you are attempting to make it more difficult for them to exercise their free will. It has nothing to do with the choice of the dead person but everything to do with what you believe is right for them and that somehow you are now in a position to speak for the dead and control their eternal destination. Truth is that God is a god of free will and gives that to both the living and the dead. You are not their master. It is the same as in this world. We offer the living baptism and they have the choice to receive it or not. You are probably not offended that we offer it to the living because your faith probably does the same and this would make you a hypocrite. But you are closed minded to offering the dead the opportunity to be baptized though the Lord has commanded it. The dead are not being forced to be a member of the church nor are they being forced to go to heaven. Ultimately it is their choice to accept it or reject it the same as the living do on this earth. So why all the offense? Is it not simply because of your own personal beliefs? If you died and we baptized you by proxy, you still could reject it and have nothing to do with it. Why is it such a big offense? Why can't you see that it is nothing but an offer to save them into the kingdom of God? Is it not simply because of your own disbelief? You wouldn't be forced to accept it. Why get all bent out of shape over it? You have your choice. Your likening of baptism for the dead to pornography or candy to a diabetic is extreme. Nobody is forced to accept it and baptism, last I read the Bible, was not likened unto such evil but favored of the Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[keepitreal]

Jesus taught:

John 3:5
5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

The apostles taught:

Acts 2:37-38
37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

If true baptism is essential for salvation, then what of the millions of people who have died without even hearing the gospel of Jesus Christ and were not baptized?

A revelation to the Prophet Joseph F. Smith was revealed on October 3, 1918 as follows:

Doctrine and Covenants 138: 1-60
1 On the third of October, in the year nineteen hundred and eighteen, I sat in my room pondering over the scriptures;
2 And reflecting upon the great atoning sacrifice that was made by the Son of God, for the redemption of the world;
3 And the great and wonderful love made manifest by the Father and the Son in the coming of the Redeemer into the world;
4 That through his atonement, and by obedience to the principles of the gospel, mankind might be saved.
5 While I was thus engaged, my mind reverted to the writings of the apostle Peter, to the primitive saints scattered abroad throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, and other parts of Asia, where the gospel had been preached after the crucifixion of the Lord.
6 I opened the Bible and read the third and fourth chapters of the first epistle of Peter, and as I read I was greatly impressed, more than I had ever been before, with the following passages:
7 “For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
8 “By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
9 “Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.” (1 Peter 3:18–20.)
10 “For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.” (1 Peter 4:6.)
11 As I pondered over these things which are written, the eyes of my understanding were opened, and the Spirit of the Lord rested upon me, and I saw the hosts of the dead, both small and great.
12 And there were gathered together in one place an innumerable company of the spirits of the just, who had been faithful in the testimony of Jesus while they lived in mortality;
13 And who had offered sacrifice in the similitude of the great sacrifice of the Son of God, and had suffered tribulation in their Redeemer’s name.
14 All these had departed the mortal life, firm in the hope of a glorious resurrection, through the grace of God the Father and his Only Begotten Son, Jesus Christ.
15 I beheld that they were filled with joy and gladness, and were rejoicing together because the day of their deliverance was at hand.
16 They were assembled awaiting the advent of the Son of God into the spirit world, to declare their redemption from the bands of death.
17 Their sleeping dust was to be restored unto its perfect frame, bone to his bone, and the sinews and the flesh upon them, the spirit and the body to be united never again to be divided, that they might receive a fulness of joy.
18 While this vast multitude waited and conversed, rejoicing in the hour of their deliverance from the chains of death, the Son of God appeared, declaring liberty to the captives who had been faithful;
19 And there he preached to them the everlasting gospel, the doctrine of the resurrection and the redemption of mankind from the fall, and from individual sins on conditions of repentance.
20 But unto the wicked he did not go, and among the ungodly and the unrepentant who had defiled themselves while in the flesh, his voice was not raised;
21 Neither did the rebellious who rejected the testimonies and the warnings of the ancient prophets behold his presence, nor look upon his face.
22 Where these were, darkness reigned, but among the righteous there was peace;
23 And the saints rejoiced in their redemption, and bowed the knee and acknowledged the Son of God as their Redeemer and Deliverer from death and the chains of hell.
24 Their countenances shone, and the radiance from the presence of the Lord rested upon them, and they sang praises unto his holy name.
25 I marveled, for I understood that the Savior spent about three years in his ministry among the Jews and those of the house of Israel, endeavoring to teach them the everlasting gospel and call them unto repentance;
26 And yet, notwithstanding his mighty works, and miracles, and proclamation of the truth, in great power and authority, there were but few who hearkened to his voice, and rejoiced in his presence, and received salvation at his hands.
27 But his ministry among those who were dead was limited to the brief time intervening between the crucifixion and his resurrection;
28 And I wondered at the words of Peter—wherein he said that the Son of God preached unto the spirits in prison, who sometime were disobedient, when once the long-suffering of God waited in the days of Noah—and how it was possible for him to preach to those spirits and perform the necessary labor among them in so short a time.
29 And as I wondered, my eyes were opened, and my understanding quickened, and I perceived that the Lord went not in person among the wicked and the disobedient who had rejected the truth, to teach them;
30 But behold, from among the righteous, he organized his forces and appointed messengers, clothed with power and authority, and commissioned them to go forth and carry the light of the gospel to them that were in darkness, even to all the spirits of men; and thus was the gospel preached to the dead.
31 And the chosen messengers went forth to declare the acceptable day of the Lord and proclaim liberty to the captives who were bound, even unto all who would repent of their sins and receive the gospel.
32 Thus was the gospel preached to those who had died in their sins, without a knowledge of the truth, or in transgression, having rejected the prophets.
33 These were taught faith in God, repentance from sin, vicarious baptism for the remission of sins, the gift of the Holy Ghost by the laying on of hands,
34 And all other principles of the gospel that were necessary for them to know in order to qualify themselves that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.
35 And so it was made known among the dead, both small and great, the unrighteous as well as the faithful, that redemption had been wrought through the sacrifice of the Son of God upon the cross.
36 Thus was it made known that our Redeemer spent his time during his sojourn in the world of spirits, instructing and preparing the faithful spirits of the prophets who had testified of him in the flesh;
37 That they might carry the message of redemption unto all the dead, unto whom he could not go personally, because of their rebellion and transgression, that they through the ministration of his servants might also hear his words.
38 Among the great and mighty ones who were assembled in this vast congregation of the righteous were Father Adam, the Ancient of Days and father of all,
39 And our glorious Mother Eve, with many of her faithful daughters who had lived through the ages and worshiped the true and living God.
40 Abel, the first martyr, was there, and his brother Seth, one of the mighty ones, who was in the express image of his father, Adam.
41 Noah, who gave warning of the flood; Shem, the great high priest; Abraham, the father of the faithful; Isaac, Jacob, and Moses, the great law-giver of Israel;
42 And Isaiah, who declared by prophecy that the Redeemer was anointed to bind up the broken-hearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that were bound, were also there.
43 Moreover, Ezekiel, who was shown in vision the great valley of dry bones, which were to be clothed upon with flesh, to come forth again in the resurrection of the dead, living souls;
44 Daniel, who foresaw and foretold the establishment of the kingdom of God in the latter days, never again to be destroyed nor given to other people;
45 Elias, who was with Moses on the Mount of Transfiguration;
46 And Malachi, the prophet who testified of the coming of Elijah—of whom also Moroni spake to the Prophet Joseph Smith, declaring that he should come before the ushering in of the great and dreadful day of the Lord—were also there.
47 The Prophet Elijah was to plant in the hearts of the children the promises made to their fathers,
48 Foreshadowing the great work to be done in the temples of the Lord in the dispensation of the fulness of times, for the redemption of the dead, and the sealing of the children to their parents, lest the whole earth be smitten with a curse and utterly wasted at his coming.
49 All these and many more, even the prophets who dwelt among the Nephites and testified of the coming of the Son of God, mingled in the vast assembly and waited for their deliverance,
50 For the dead had looked upon the long absence of their spirits from their bodies as a bondage.
51 These the Lord taught, and gave them power to come forth, after his resurrection from the dead, to enter into his Father’s kingdom, there to be crowned with immortality and eternal life,
52 And continue thenceforth their labor as had been promised by the Lord, and be partakers of all blessings which were held in reserve for them that love him.
53 The Prophet Joseph Smith, and my father, Hyrum Smith, Brigham Young, John Taylor, Wilford Woodruff, and other choice spirits who were reserved to come forth in the fulness of times to take part in laying the foundations of the great latter-day work,
54 Including the building of the temples and the performance of ordinances therein for the redemption of the dead, were also in the spirit world.
55 I observed that they were also among the noble and great ones who were chosen in the beginning to be rulers in the Church of God.
56 Even before they were born, they, with many others, received their first lessons in the world of spirits and were prepared to come forth in the due time of the Lord to labor in his vineyard for the salvation of the souls of men.
57 I beheld that the faithful elders of this dispensation, when they depart from mortal life, continue their labors in the preaching of the gospel of repentance and redemption, through the sacrifice of the Only Begotten Son of God, among those who are in darkness and under the bondage of sin in the great world of the spirits of the dead.
58 The dead who repent will be redeemed, through obedience to the ordinances of the house of God,
59 And after they have paid the penalty of their transgressions, and are washed clean, shall receive a reward according to their works, for they are heirs of salvation.
60 Thus was the vision of the redemption of the dead revealed to me, and I bear record, and I know that this record is true, through the blessing of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ, even so. Amen.

Here is a reference to some material regarding baptism in ancient times in the early Christian church:
Mormanity - A Mormon Blog (But Not Just for Mormons): Ancient Baptism for the Dead: Some Resources

Take your prophet nonsense and stick it.
Think you're slick, posting that after quoting Scripture.

 

[Meriweather]

It really shouldn't matter whether baptism is offensive to you or anyone else. The offer of baptism is unto the dead. They have the choice of whether they want to receive it or not. So lets suppose that they accept the baptism of the dead. Obviously if they do, then they are not offended by it. Only you would be offended by it. You seem to think that it is offensive for us to offer them baptism. Why? Because you don't believe it? If they are alive after death, shouldn't they still be allowed to make their own decisions? Why are you self appointing yourself as their decision maker? If they don't want the baptism, they can simply reject it and it has no bearing. However, if they desire it and want to receive it, then you are attempting to make it more difficult for them to exercise their free will. It has nothing to do with the choice of the dead person but everything to do with what you believe is right for them and that somehow you are now in a position to speak for the dead and control their eternal destination. Truth is that God is a god of free will and gives that to both the living and the dead. You are not their master. It is the same as in this world. We offer the living baptism and they have the choice to receive it or not. You are probably not offended that we offer it to the living because your faith probably does the same and this would make you a hypocrite. But you are closed minded to offering the dead the opportunity to be baptized though the Lord has commanded it. The dead are not being forced to be a member of the church nor are they being forced to go to heaven. Ultimately it is their choice to accept it or reject it the same as the living do on this earth. So why all the offense? Is it not simply because of your own personal beliefs? If you died and we baptized you by proxy, you still could reject it and have nothing to do with it. Why is it such a big offense? Why can't you see that it is nothing but an offer to save them into the kingdom of God? Is it not simply because of your own disbelief? You wouldn't be forced to accept it. Why get all bent out of shape over it? You have your choice. Your likening of baptism for the dead to pornography or candy to a diabetic is extreme. Nobody is forced to accept it and baptism, last I read the Bible, was not likened unto such evil but favored of the Lord Jesus Christ.

Sounds like rape to me. Relax, take it...and then pretend it never happened. You are trampling on others' beliefs, stomping on others' holy ground. Instead of the shame you should feel, you look at us and gloat, "Neener, neener, you can't stop us." And yes, that last sentence was actually said to me by a good friend who is a member of the LDS Church--even as she witnessed how distraught my family was when it happened to them when a member of our Catholic family.

I am an advocate of prayer for the dead, but that is far different than placing a complete stranger in a family member's shoes for one of your proxy ceremonies. Surely if a man told you to undertake a man-made ceremony ordered by one man, you could listen to mankind who implore you to stop. Nowhere does Jesus command we cause distress to the living. Once again, if my baptism is so important to you, have the wherewithal to grab me off the street and haul me into your church while I'm living. Otherwise, leave.me.alone once I've passed on loving the faith I have lived--and love.

 

[onefour1]

You're offended that we create the will call ticket that allows anyone, once they are dead, to accept or reject baptism. It amazes me that you put so much stock in what another religion does that you don't even believe in. Nobody raped anyone. Nobody is forcing you or your dead ancestor to accept the baptism. How could this be trampling on another's belief? If there is choice in the matter for the dead then nobody is trampling on his or her beliefs. We are simply performing a saving ordinance in their behalf so that should they desire to receive it, they have the choice to do so. We hold to the right to practice our religion every bit as much as you hold to your own. You judge me by the actions of another. I wasn't there and I didn't hear what your words or your good friends words were with one another. Take it up with her and leave me out of it. My interactions with you are simply to point out that baptism is required by the Lord to enter the kingdom of God and that we believe that all mankind are our brothers and sisters, i.e. children of God, and are in need of it. We do not believe that a person is condemned for not receiving baptism in this life when they never had the opportunity to receive it. We believe that God is a just and loving God and if he requires baptism that he will provide a means whereby every one of his children will have the opportunity to accept or reject it. For this reason was the gospel preached to the dead.

1 Peter 4:6
6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

1 Peter 3:18-20
18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

Just because a person was born into a particular family on earth does not make him or her any less a member of the family of God. God seeks to save all his children and for this reason were his apostles sent into all the world to preach the gospel and baptize. Should we all cease and desist baptizing the living who desire the baptism because it might offend a relative who is atheist or of some other religion? Have not the Catholics baptized the relatives of atheists, and members of other churches? Was it not offensive to those of the living that you would baptize their relative who desired the baptism? Is it not the individuals choice and not that of their relatives? Once the dead have passed on from this life, do not their spirits continue to live? Do they not have free will anymore? Does God take that away? Why would God preach to the spirits that are dead if they have no mind or will of their own? Why would the Apostle Paul use baptism for the dead as a defense for the resurrection of the dead if it were not a true doctrine? Nowhere does the word of the Lord tell us that the dead are exempt from his decree of baptism. If that were true then no baptism would be necessary and we would all be saved upon death. This would have made the baptism of Jesus to have no meaning or purpose, nor the baptisms of countless Christians. Prayer is always good but it is the decree of God that we all be baptized. Nevertheless, the church has listened to those who currently seek to do away with this beautiful doctrine of salvation unless we receive permission from a living member of their family on earth. So yes, we are giving you that respect. If the dead accept the baptism then the delay of their receiving the baptism of the dead until Christ personally reigns upon the earth in the millennium will be upon heads of those family members who totally refuse to allow it. They will have to answer to God for their actions.

Religious freedom is still a right in this country and others should respect that right as long as it does not infringe upon the rights of others. Baptism for the dead, whether or not we obtain permission from the family is not, in my view, an infringement on another persons rights. A true understanding of this doctrine has its basis in free will and choice. It doesn't take away the rights or beliefs of others. It only gives them a choice to accept or reject the offer of salvation via baptism. The performance of the ordinance is only performed because it cannot be performed by the disembodied spirit. However, the seeking to curtail ones religious beliefs when they do not infringe upon another's right to believe what they will, is an infringement on their religious rights. These basic human rights came to us because of the atrocities that have occurred in history when other religions would persecute others for not believing as they did. Many in history were tortured and killed for not adhering to beliefs of the religion in power. I hope that you, as a Catholic today, hold religious freedom and the free will of mankind to choose their own destiny over the ancient belief of the Catholics to force others by torture and death to adhere to their version of Christianity.