Baptism for the dead

[tyroneweaver]

In the Apostle Paul's defense of the resurrection, he stated:

1 Corinthians 15:29
29 Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?

The Apostle Paul certainly believed in the doctrine and used it as a defense of the resurrection.

No, Paul did not necessarily believe in the doctrine; there is nothing in any of his letters that stated belief, approval, or disapproval. Here is what we know: This custom differs greatly from the Mormon custom. The LDS Church baptizes people who lived their lives in another faith; during their lives had informed Mormons they did not wish to become Mormon; yet a year after their death, Mormons baptize them into the LDS Church anyway.

What has been learned that in Paul's day, if someone was undergoing instruction in the faith, but died before they were baptized, someone was baptized in their behalf. This practice did not last long, and it seems to have taken place in one community only, and even there it was quickly abandoned.

In general, I hold the LDS faith in esteem, but I despise their practice of baptizing the dead. It is truly despicable. First, it is a sin against those who would have no wish to go through an LDS ceremony. Second, it is my understanding the dead don't need to "accept" the baptism. This constitutes a blasphemy against their own ordinance. They toss it about, indifferent as to whether their conscripted soul treats it sacredly or despises it. Would an LDS member grab me off the street and force their baptism on me? No, they would not. I also asked a member of the LDS Church if I could be baptized without joining their church. No, I could not. Yet, they will wait until I'm dead and do it.

You've already had your chance.
2nd chance salvation is not baptism for the dead.
It applys only to those that didn't have a chance.

 

[tyroneweaver]

Baptism for the dead is not forced upon the dead individual. It is an ordinance that can only be performed with a body. It is done vicariously for the disembodied spirit before resurrection. This allows those who accept the gospel in the world of spirits to also receive baptism. For this reason it is necessary for the baptism of the dead to be one of the great works of the mellennial era.

In fact it is forced on the dead. My relatives had no wish for this to happen to them, they were against it all their lives. Yet it was done anyway. I call that "force". If you mean they have a chance to change their minds in the afterlife, then that means there is a 50-50 chance that your ordinance is being treated with great disrespect. Do you not respect your own ordinance? Is it so worthless that it is meaningless? Else, why not baptize people in this life? For example, onefour1, why doesn't your church allow you to go through the vicarious baptism for me while I'm alive? Why don't you notify me you will be doing this? Why don't you notify the immediate family of the dead when you forcefully baptized their loved ones?

Is that what we believe?
Or your perception of what we believe?

 

[aris2chat]

If true baptism is essential for salvation, then what of the millions of people who have died without even hearing the gospel of Jesus Christ and were not baptized?

They are judged on their behavior. And their inclination to realize through Creation the existence of a higher power.

For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse. (Romans 1:20)

Baptism is for the living. It requires participation of the one being baptized. The only thing dead people can participate in is an election.

I meant to clarify something else you wrote and forgot. You wrote that, "If true baptism is essential for salvation...."
That is not Biblical and is a false statement. The only thing necessary for salvation is the cross. Christ's work is essential for salvation, alone. There is not one thing you can add to what He did on the cross. He finished your redemption there, and said so. "It is finished."
Baptism is an outward expression of the old man dying, and a new creature emerging that accepts Christ as his savior. It has nothing to do with salvation. Christ received the Holy Spirit at baptism. Some have received the Holy Spirit before being baptized. Some during. Baptism is a good thing. But your salvation does not depend on it.
Christ's shed blood saved you. Depend on that.

>>And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done. And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done.<<

If you have lived in balance a good life, no matter your faith, you will be judged worthy. Even sinners will be raised.

If you don't believe in heaven or hell you should still try to be a good person and care about others. It is a reward in itself

You are referencing the White Throne Judgment above. It is reserved for those who chose to die with their sins attached, rather than to accept the gift of Christ's sin free record for entering heaven. That was the exchange that took place on the cross. Christ became our sin and we became the righteousness of Christ. For those who do except the gift, there is only one judgement. That is the Bema judgement where your good works are judged based on whose sake they were done for. Ours, or for Christ's sake. It is how your treasures are determined. Your sins are not judged because you have none. They were put behind our Father and forgotten by Him at the cross.

Hebrews 8:12
For I will forgive their wickedness and will remember their sins no more

Being a good person, if you have faith, saves you, but it isn't the good person part that does the saving. It is the faith in Christ part that saves. Being a good person without faith gets your name on the docket at the White Throne Judgment. Because no man goes to the Father without going through Christ to get there. Sin is a blood issue, and can't be cured by works. It needs a pure blood transfusion to be removed. That is what Christ bled out to remove from us, once and for all.
Upon acceptance of Christ as your Redeemer, your name is written in the Book of Life. You don't have to wait to see if your name is there, which is why we can go boldly to the Throne of God, sin free and white as a Lamb.

If you have nothing wrong, there is nothing to save. Not everyone in the world is or knows about christians. Christians do not have an exclusivity to god or godhead. Christians are wrong to be so egotistical to think so, it is unchristian, and un-jesus-like.

If you are feeling superior "because" you are christian, you need a lot of forgiving.

God is everywhere and in everything and everyone. It is not Jesus that saves, but finding the jesus like spirit in us, a sort of nirvana and peace with the world and all life.

If you think god and jesus are only for christians, you have a big problem. We are all made of the same stuff as jesus, we are all the children of god and we don't have to look any further than our hearts and to be at one with all life.

Golden rule, Noachide Laws or any others that are not selfish and cruel will serve. This world or the next does not have to be hostile, nor should we fear it.

By any name, if we find love in life we are ahead of the game. If we love others, we are winners. If we love all, we win the grandest prize.

Live this life as if it is the only one. If we repeat life or find a heaven, so much the better, but if there is nothing else, don't waste this one chance.

 

[The Irish Ram]

I am sorry, but I have to disagree. God is not in everyone. And not all are His children. God was not in Jezebel. He hated her so much he didn't allow her to be buried in His earth. She was tossed out of a window and was eaten by dogs, who turned her into dog s**t.

And we all have something wrong. All men have sinned and have fallen short of the glory of God. There is nothing to feel superior about. The gift of the cross is for all mankind. Every last ugly one of us. His children are, the one's who accept the gift His Son died to provide. We are made in the image of our Father. We are eternal. Where we spend eternity depends on us. Good works are not even taken into consideration when it comes to salvation. Christ paid your debt. He died in your place. He removed what was standing between you and your Father. Not Allah, not Buddha, not a crystal, not your hard work.

It is no one but Jesus who saves. That doesn't make Christians special, it makes Him special.
We are not all made like Jesus. He is the Son of God. We are the sons of men.
A Jesus like spirit is actually called, the Holy Spirit, and is available to anyone who asks. Again, nothing exclusive. It is our guide until we are reunited with Christ.
It was Christ who told us to love our Father and our neighbor. If you believe that, then you need to believe Him when He tells you, "Jesus answered, I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."
He did not say He was one of the ways to the Father. He said the opposite.

Your last sentence is referred to as Pascal's Wager:
If you gain, you gain all; if you lose, you lose nothing. Wager, then, without hesitation, that He exists.

 

[aris2chat]

I am sorry, but I have to disagree. God is not in everyone. And not all are His children. God was not in Jezebel. He hated her so much he didn't allow her to be buried in His earth. She was tossed out of a window and was eaten by dogs, who turned her into dog s**t.

And we all have something wrong. All men have sinned and have fallen short of the glory of God. There is nothing to feel superior about. The gift of the cross is for all mankind. Every last ugly one of us. His children are, the one's who accept the gift His Son died to provide. We are made in the image of our Father. We are eternal. Where we spend eternity depends on us. Good works are not even taken into consideration when it comes to salvation. Christ paid your debt. He died in your place. He removed what was standing between you and your Father. Not Allah, not Buddha, not a crystal, not your hard work.

It is no one but Jesus who saves. That doesn't make Christians special, it makes Him special.
We are not all made like Jesus. He is the Son of God. We are the sons of men.
A Jesus like spirit is actually called, the Holy Spirit, and is available to anyone who asks. Again, nothing exclusive. It is our guide until we are reunited with Christ.
It was Christ who told us to love our Father and our neighbor. If you believe that, then you need to believe Him when He tells you, "Jesus answered, I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."
He did not say He was one of the ways to the Father. He said the opposite.

Your last sentence is referred to as Pascal's Wager:
If you gain, you gain all; if you lose, you lose nothing. Wager, then, without hesitation, that He exists.

I don't believe we are bad just because.
I believe anyone that wants can find a peace and goodness in life and a sense of god or spirituality with life.
I see just about all religion and I can't say they are all wrong and christians right. Too much hate, blood, cruelty, abuse and evil has come from christians and their churches.
If God is in all things and all people, we don't have to go that far to find our nearness to god.

A rose by any name.............. god by any name or shape or language

If you put others down for not believing in "your" version of jesus or god, you are the one who has not found truth in life yet. Everyone has their own journey and will find god in their own way if there is one. Or find their own link with life and universe.

God can be many things and you don't have an exclusivity to right and wrong.

When you see god in all people no matter their faith, you will be much closer than you are now. Let others find their own way, unless they ask.

Accept there is goodness and godness in everyone and no matter we will all begin and end up the same in the end.

 

[tyroneweaver]

Pope Sixtus in 250 A.D. came up with infant baptism in response to infant mortality. That pretty much solves the problem of baptism for the dead.

There is no clear indication anywhere in the Greek New Testament (forget your many erroneous English translations) what happens with anyone who has not heard Jesus' good-message.

The Mormon solution of endless genealogies and baptisms for the dead is a big waste of time.

Endless genealogies was about basing your salvation on being a descendant of Abraham. And searching for what bloodline you came thru. And basing your salvation on that genealogy.
Remember Pharasees boasted of them being descendents of Abraham.

 

[OZman]

Jesus taught:

John 3:5
5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

He also said:
Matthew 18:2-4King James Version (KJV)
2 And Jesus called a little child unto him, and set him in the midst of them,

3 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.

4 Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven.

 

[onefour1]

Jesus taught:

John 3:5
5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

He also said:
Matthew 18:2-4King James Version (KJV)
2 And Jesus called a little child unto him, and set him in the midst of them,

3 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.

4 Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven.

It my belief that if you are humble as a little child you will receive the teachings of Jesus and be baptized.

 

[onefour1]

Christ who was not in need of forgiveness of sin since he did no sin,

1 Peter 2:21-22
21 For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps:
22 Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth:

And what example did he give us?

Matthew 3:13-17
13 Then cometh Jesus from Galilee to Jordan unto John, to be baptized of him.
14 But John forbad him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me?
15 And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him.
16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:
17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

Mark 16:16
16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Galatians 3:27
27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

Matthew 28:19
19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

John 4:1-2
1 When therefore the Lord knew how the Pharisees had heard that Jesus made and baptized more disciples than John,
2 (Though Jesus himself baptized not, but his disciples,)

Jesus himself was baptized to show us the true path of discipleship. He did no sin and was not in need of baptism for the remission of sins. But to show all of us the true path to enter his kingdom he suffered himself to be baptized. Baptism is a saving ordinance of the gospel and is required of all to enter his kingdom. Thus Jesus taught:

John 3:3-5
3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother’s womb, and be born?
5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

This is his decree unto all mankind, both the living and dead. When ever or where ever did Jesus teach otherwise? Everyone who seeks entrance into the kingdom of God must be baptized! Thus a disembodied spirit cannot enter the waters of baptism and must receive these ordinances vicariously from the living. Paul who understood the true doctrine of baptism used baptism for the dead as an argument for the resurrection.

1 Corinthians 15:29
29 Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?

His argument is basically why would those who baptize for the dead do so if there is no resurrection? He is confirming that there is a resurrection and using baptism of the dead as an argument that there would be no need of it if there were no resurrection. Nobody in their right mind would use a false doctrine to defend a true doctrine in this way.

As Jesus taught, you cannot enter the kingdom without baptism by water and by baptism of the spirit. These are two essential ordinances of the gospel that one must receive by going down into the waters of baptism and afterwards receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost by the laying on of hands of those who have the authority to perform these ordinances.

 

[onefour1]

Another interesting article on the subject is: Baptism for the Dead in Early Christianity

 

[aris2chat]

Another interesting article on the subject is: Baptism for the Dead in Early Christianity

Mormons apologize for baptizing of dead Jews - CBS News
www.cbsnews.com/news/mormons-apologize-for-baptizing-of-dead-jews/
Feb 14, 2012 - The parents of famed Nazi hunter Simon Wiesenthal were baptized posthumously by Mormon churches, a once-normal ... Mormons apologize for baptizing of dead Jews ... Jury gives final answer in Ohio police shooting trial.
Mormon Church apologizes for Jewish baptisms for the dead | Deseret ...
www.deseretnews.com/.../LDS-Church-apologizes-for-Jewish-baptisms-for-the-dead.h...
Feb 14, 2012 - SALT LAKE CITY — The LDS Church has suspended access to its genealogy database for a church member who last month had a posthumous proxy baptism performed for the parents of famed Holocaust survivor Simon Wiesenthal. ... The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has long asked ...
Mormon Church apologizes for baptising dead Jews - Jewish World ...
www.jpost.com/Jewish.../Jewish.../Mormon-Church-apologizes-for-baptising-dead-Je...
Feb 15, 2012 - After baptizing the long-passed parents of Simon Wiesenthal; Elie Wiesel calls on Romney to ... Mormon Church apologizes for baptising dead Jews ... The Debates Don't Matter, the End of the American Empire is Coming.
Mormon church apologizes for posthumous baptism of Jews | Reuters
www.reuters.com/article/us-mormons-apology-wiesenthal-idUSTRE81E03S20120215
Feb 14, 2012 - Mormon church apologizes for posthumous baptism of Jews. LOS ANGELES ... His father, Asher Wiesenthal, died during the First World War.


They will have to do the same to muslims if they keep this up.

It is not their place or their right to impose their beliefs on other faiths.

 

[onefour1]

I personally would not find it offensive if any other religion performed religious ordinances on my dead ancestors or anyone for that matter. If I didn't believe that their religion was true, then it would make no difference to me. If it were the true religion then I should welcome it. So I don't quite understand why anyone would be offended and get all bent out of shape over how we practice this in our religion. The practice of baptism for the dead is to fulfill the ordinance for those who did not have the chance to receive it while here on this earth. As mention in my first post, the gospel is preached to those who are dead and they still have the opportunity to accept it or reject it. If they reject the gospel, then the baptism for the dead will avail them nothing. It would be as if no baptism was performed for them because God honors free will and will not force anyone into heaven. If they accept the gospel, then that person may enter the kingdom of God and have baptism for them done in their behalf. It is the turning of our hearts to the fathers.

Malachi 4:5-6
5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord:
6 And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.

 

[Meriweather]

They will have to do the same to muslims if they keep this up.

It is not their place or their right to impose their beliefs on other faiths.

My ancestors of the Quaker faith were adamant about not being baptized. These wishes are completely disregarded by the LDS Church. They baptize popes...and Mickey Mouse. Sometimes several times.

 

[Meriweather]

I personally would not find it offensive if any other religion performed religious ordinances on my dead ancestors or anyone for that matter. If I didn't believe that their religion was true, then it would make no difference to me. If it were the true religion then I should welcome it. So I don't quite understand why anyone would be offended and get all bent out of shape over how we practice this in our religion. The practice of baptism for the dead is to fulfill the ordinance for those who did not have the chance to receive it while here on this earth. As mention in my first post, the gospel is preached to those who are dead and they still have the opportunity to accept it or reject it. If they reject the gospel, then the baptism for the dead will avail them nothing. It would be as if no baptism was performed for them because God honors free will and will not force anyone into heaven. If they accept the gospel, then that person may enter the kingdom of God and have baptism for them done in their behalf. It is the turning of our hearts to the fathers.

What is offensive is that the LDS Church puts their own lack of faith in the power of God and His graces second to the power of their "ordinance." It dismisses the faith of others as unworthy. It dismisses the pain and grief this causes others because that pain and grief doesn't matter if it makes someone professing the LDS faith feel good and superior.

Prayers are welcome. Your ordinances are not. Those are not only offensive, but highly and repugnantly offensive. I pray your church will stop doing this. I'm happy to hear you welcome this prayer on your behalf.

 

[onefour1]

If you Quaker ancestors never believed in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, why would they think the baptism has any effect upon them?

 

[onefour1]

Was it a lack of faith in Jesus that he taught us and showed us how to be baptized? As quoted in my posts above, Jesus had his disciples baptize more people than John the Baptist. Do you find the Lord lacking because he wanted us all to be baptized? Do you not believe that you must be born of the water and the spirit as Jesus taught to enter his kingdom?

 

[Meriweather]

Was it a lack of faith in Jesus that he taught us and showed us how to be baptized? As quoted in my posts above, Jesus had his disciples baptize more people than John the Baptist. Do you find the Lord lacking because he wanted us all to be baptized? Do you not believe that you must be born of the water and the spirit as Jesus taught to enter his kingdom?

Was Jesus speaking to the dead or those living? Not one Gospel passage has Jesus urging people to baptize the dead. Nor did John the Baptist. Further, the LDS Church re-baptizes those who have already been baptized. Christians believe in one baptism. Such is our faith.

Prayers for those who have passed on are welcome. Your Ordinances are not. To me it is inconceivable that someone would speak in my stead the words of your ordinance--one I have no belief in.

I'm not alone in repudiating this practice. The LDS Church has already felt the need to apologize to Jews. Further apologies are due because Jews are not the only ones who feel horrifically violated. If you honor our free will, then please show it.

 

[aris2chat]

I personally would not find it offensive if any other religion performed religious ordinances on my dead ancestors or anyone for that matter. If I didn't believe that their religion was true, then it would make no difference to me. If it were the true religion then I should welcome it. So I don't quite understand why anyone would be offended and get all bent out of shape over how we practice this in our religion. The practice of baptism for the dead is to fulfill the ordinance for those who did not have the chance to receive it while here on this earth. As mention in my first post, the gospel is preached to those who are dead and they still have the opportunity to accept it or reject it. If they reject the gospel, then the baptism for the dead will avail them nothing. It would be as if no baptism was performed for them because God honors free will and will not force anyone into heaven. If they accept the gospel, then that person may enter the kingdom of God and have baptism for them done in their behalf. It is the turning of our hearts to the fathers.

Malachi 4:5-6
5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord:
6 And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.

A lot of people don't consider LDS as a real faith and most of the world don't believe in christianity

Why would they welcome their dead being baptized?

They see christians like cannibalism, worshiping pain and suffering on a cross, eating the body and drinking the blood of their god. It is evil to them. They have see the hate and destruction and enslavement by christians, even the violence they perpetrate on other christians.

They don't see it as being saved. They don't believe in your judgement or your concept of hell. Some don't believe in burial.

Some people don't even believe in god or religion.

Muslims believe jesus was a prophet, not god or son of god nor the crucifixion or baptism.

Why would these people welcome mormons baptizing their dead or your idea of being saved?

 

[hobelim]

Was it a lack of faith in Jesus that he taught us and showed us how to be baptized? As quoted in my posts above, Jesus had his disciples baptize more people than John the Baptist. Do you find the Lord lacking because he wanted us all to be baptized? Do you not believe that you must be born of the water and the spirit as Jesus taught to enter his kingdom?

Jesus never baptized even one single person.

Did you never wonder why?

 

[Bob Blaylock]

Jesus never baptized even one single person.

Did you never wonder why?

What makes you so sure of that?

Surely, the Bible doesn't account for every thing that he did.