Are you actually pro-life?

[Pedro de San Patricio]

Psst...abortions aren't reported now.

CDC - Data and Statistics - Reproductive Health

Right now we have a situation where back alley abortions are legal, and protected by baby killers and butchers and pimps.

I'm aware of that. And making it illegal won't make the baby butchers and pimps vanish. It won't make women suddenly stop seeking it out.

The whole fantasy of skanky wimmins lining up for to be chopped up is just that..a fantasy.

Exactly. Generally speaking the women looking for an abortion aren't "skanky". They're often young, scared, undereducated, and poor. and very well might be pressured into it by an irresponsible boyfriend or coldhearted parents. About as often they're already mothers who can barely afford to make ends meet as it is.

Baby killers view women as criminal and stupid, and they do what they can to misinform the ones who are most desperate, and actively assist the groups of people who prey upon them and then drag them to the clinics to get rid of the evidence and prolong the work life of said woman. And that is what the dialogue of the pro-abortion zealot supports.

No disagreement there.

 

[koshergrl]

Psst...abortions aren't reported now.

CDC - Data and Statistics - Reproductive Health

Right now we have a situation where back alley abortions are legal, and protected by baby killers and butchers and pimps.

I'm aware of that. And making it illegal won't make the baby butchers and pimps vanish. It won't make women suddenly stops seeking it out.

The whole fantasy of skanky wimmins lining up for to be chopped up is just that..a fantasy.

Exactly. Generally speaking the women looking for an abortion aren't "skanky". They're often young, scared, undereducated, and poor. and very well might be pressured into it by an irresponsible boyfriend or coldhearted parents. About as often they're already mothers who can barely afford to make ends meet as it is.

Baby killers view women as criminal and stupid, and they do what they can to misinform the ones who are most desperate, and actively assist the groups of people who prey upon them and then drag them to the clinics to get rid of the evidence and prolong the work life of said woman. And that is what the dialogue of the pro-abortion zealot supports.

No disagreement there.

[/QUOTE]
Right now the baby butchers and pimps are given free rein. Make it illegal.

 

[Pedro de San Patricio]

I'm totally good with making it illegal. That's not what I'm arguing against. What I'm arguing against is the notion that simply making it illegal will be like a magic button and totally end the problem. All it's going to do is drive it underground unless we address the underlying reasons it exists. If we don't then women will still be getting abortions, the clinics will be far more dangerous, and our victory in this will be hollow and impermanent. You don't really think we could keep abortion illegal forever without making women less dependent on it, do you? The inevitable blowback - both in pointless deaths and providing the anti-life movement with plenty of ammo to repeal the law - will be enormous unless we cut demand for it as well.

 

[koshergrl]

I'm totally good with making it illegal. That's not what I'm arguing against. What I'm arguing against is the notion that simply making it illegal will be like a magic button and totally end the problem. All it's going to do is drive it underground unless we address the underlying reasons it exists. If we don't then women will still be getting abortions, the clinics will be far more dangerous, and our victory in this will be hollow and impermanent. You don't really think we could keep abortion illegal forever without making women less dependent on it, do you? The inevitable blowback - both in pointless deaths and providing the anti-life movement with plenty of ammo to repeal the law - will be enormous unless we cut demand for it as well.

Nobody anywhere has ever said "making it illegal will be like a magic button and totally end the problem"...whatever you think "the problem" is. And there is no "inevitable blowback in pointless deaths". That is garbage, and the fact that you are saying it proves you aren't anti-abortion at all. You are repeating lies told by the baby killers, and they are just that...lies.

 

[Pedro de San Patricio]

Nobody anywhere has ever said "making it illegal will be like a magic button and totally end the problem"...whatever you think "the problem" is.

The problem is abortion. I thought that was clear.

And there is no "inevitable blowback in pointless deaths". That is garbage, and the fact that you are saying it proves you aren't anti-abortion at all. You are repeating lies told by the baby killers, and they are just that...lies.

Right now there are women paying PP to kill and harvest their children. That is a problem. We need to end this practice. I agree with you that it should be illegal. I want it to be illegal and I'm willing to put effort towards that goal. The problem is that making it illegal is only part of the solution. You still have to account for the fact that there is a demand for it in the first place. You have to realize that many of those women are there of their own free will and ask yourself why that is. What reasons could they have for doing it? "They're just evil" doesn't cut it either. That's just a cop out to excuse ourselves from the responsibility of addressing what could cause so many women to opt to do that to their own children. Clearly they think it's preferable to the option of raising them. Why would that be? I've given you the two most common answers multiple times now. People aren't correctly using sufficient contraceptive measures and many poor women are conceiving children they can't afford. Those are two major problems we have to deal with if we want any attempt to make it illegal to work. We have to address substandard sex education and we have to provide material and emotional support for poorer pregnant women. There is also the problem of our dysfunctional cultural attitudes towards sex, pregnancy, and family to dealt with.

 

[koshergrl]

Nobody anywhere has ever said "making it illegal will be like a magic button and totally end the problem"...whatever you think "the problem" is.

The problem is abortion. I thought that was clear.

And there is no "inevitable blowback in pointless deaths". That is garbage, and the fact that you are saying it proves you aren't anti-abortion at all. You are repeating lies told by the baby killers, and they are just that...lies.

Right now there are women paying PP to kill and harvest their children. That is a problem. We need to end this practice. I agree with you that it should be illegal. I want it to be illegal and I'm willing to put effort towards that goal. The problem is that making it illegal is only part of the solution. You still have to account for the fact that there is a demand for it in the first place. You have to realize that many of those women are there of their own free will and ask yourself why that is. What reasons could they have for doing it? "They're just evil" doesn't cut it either. That's just a cop out to excuse ourselves from the responsibility of addressing what could cause so many women to opt to do that to their own children. Clearly they think it's preferable to the option of raising them. Why would that be? I've given you the two most common answers multiple times now. People aren't correctly using sufficient contraceptive measures and many poor women are conceiving children they can't afford. Those are two major problems we have to deal with if we want any attempt to make it illegal to work. We have to address substandard sex education and we have to provide material and emotional support for poorer pregnant women. There is also the problem of our dysfunctional cultural attitudes towards sex, pregnancy, and family to dealt with.

Again, you're spreading baby killing propaganda.

Our sex ed is NOT substandard, and the majority of women getting pregnant don't get pregnant because they don't know about or have access to birth control.
Women have access to free birth control, and we teach sex ed in classes. THE MAJORITY OF WOMEN WHO GET PREGNANT AND THEN ABORT ARE IN ABUSIVE RELATIONSHIPS AND ARE COERCED INTO THE ABORTION. Either by their families, by the father of the baby, or by the clinics themselves.

There are many, many, many support structures in place for pregnant women. It's just that our press, with the CDC and PP behind it calling the shots, refuses to acknowledge them.

 

[Jackson]

It's sickening seeing how many people use this label without knowing what it means. It's not just anti-abortion. Protecting children from the pro-abort crowd is just one facet. A true pro-life position is also:

anti-execution
pro-reform
anti-euthanasia
pro-healthcare
anti-poverty
pro-welfare
anti-war
pro-internationalism
anti-inequality
pro-immigrant
anti-sexist
pro-family
anti-racist
pro-social harmony

These aren't just words. They aren't labels. They are hard and fast positions. To call oneself pro-life and demand someone's death is a blunt contradiction. Claim to promote peace and hawk for war and you're simply the worst sort of hypocrite. Say you care about children and then leave them to starve in the streets or send them back to grow up in a war zone and you're no better than the baby butchers than whom you pretend to be any different.

Where did you get this list? Link please.

 

[boilermaker55]

You are very misinformed and greatly so. Your opinions maybe but not facts about liberals/catholics.

The thing is Pedro, as a Catholic I might become a liberal and worry about all you have said.

However, since liberals insist on being anti-Christian and pro-abortion, I realize they don't give a damn about any of those other things. I can't associate myself with liars and murderers.

 

[Pedro de San Patricio]

Again, you're spreading baby killing propaganda.

Several of their criticisms of us are so popular/strong because they're rooted in reality. It would be wise of us to consider what this says about us and adjust as necessary.

Our sex ed is NOT substandard,

My high school sex ed was literally just pictures of diseased genitals and advice that God dislikes sex slightly less when the people having it are married. I realize that's to be expected in the South but it didn't leave me with a positive impression. Hearing the things my peers believe (interesting beliefs I've heard lately include the claim that woman can get pregnant from a toilet seat) has definitely been eye opening as well.

and the majority of women getting pregnant don't get pregnant because they don't know about or have access to birth control.

I didn't say that's the most common reason women get pregnant. I said that one of the most common reasons women get abortions is unplanned pregnancy, which is typically caused by a lack of access to birth control and the knowledge to use it. Contraceptive failure is also a common cause but it's not one that we can work on. We can do a lot more to ensure people use a condom than we can to keep it from breaking.

Women have access to free birth control, and we teach sex ed in classes.

That access clearly isn't enough. Our sex ed kinda sucks when we focus on telling people just not to have sex.

THE MAJORITY OF WOMEN WHO GET PREGNANT AND THEN ABORT ARE IN ABUSIVE RELATIONSHIPS AND ARE COERCED INTO THE ABORTION. Either by their families, by the father of the baby, or by the clinics themselves.

This is often the case. Not always. There are plenty of married women who aren't abused and just can't afford to keep their new child. I agree that this isn't a reason to murder the kid but we need to work on more practical solutions than to tell the mother to keep her legs shut after the fact. This is an economic issue as much as it is a social one.

There are many, many, many support structures in place for pregnant women. It's just that our press, with the CDC and PP behind it calling the shots, refuses to acknowledge them.

I'm aware of this. PP is a business that makes a killing off having a virtual monopoly. We need to fight that by supporting and expanding an alternative pro-life healthcare system. Preferably we would be utilizing the existing state and county clinics.

 

[Pedro de San Patricio]

You are very misinformed and greatly so. Your opinions maybe but not facts about liberals/catholics.

The thing is Pedro, as a Catholic I might become a liberal and worry about all you have said.

However, since liberals insist on being anti-Christian and pro-abortion, I realize they don't give a damn about any of those other things. I can't associate myself with liars and murderers.

What?

 

[koshergrl]

Again, you're spreading baby killing propaganda.

Several of their criticisms of us are so popular/strong because they're rooted in reality. It would be wise of us to consider what this says about us and adjust as necessary.

Our sex ed is NOT substandard,

My high school sex ed was literally just pictures of diseased genitals and advice that God dislikes sex slightly less when the people having it are married. I realize that's to be expected in the South but it didn't leave me with a positive impression. Hearing the things my peers believe (interesting beliefs I've heard lately include the claim that woman can get pregnant from a toilet seat) has definitely been eye opening as well.

and the majority of women getting pregnant don't get pregnant because they don't know about or have access to birth control.

I didn't say that's the most common reason women get pregnant. I said that one of the most common reasons women get abortions is unplanned pregnancy, which is typically caused by a lack of access to birth control and the knowledge to use it. Contraceptive failure is also a common cause but it's not one that we can work on. We can do a lot more to ensure people use a condom than we can to keep it from breaking.

Women have access to free birth control, and we teach sex ed in classes.

That access clearly isn't enough. Our sex ed kinda sucks when we focus on telling people just not to have sex.

THE MAJORITY OF WOMEN WHO GET PREGNANT AND THEN ABORT ARE IN ABUSIVE RELATIONSHIPS AND ARE COERCED INTO THE ABORTION. Either by their families, by the father of the baby, or by the clinics themselves.

This is often the case. Not always. There are plenty of married women who aren't abused and just can't afford to keep their new child. I agree that this isn't a reason to murder the kid but we need to work on more practical solutions than to tell the mother to keep her legs shut after the fact. This is an economic issue as much as it is a social one.

There are many, many, many support structures in place for pregnant women. It's just that our press, with the CDC and PP behind it calling the shots, refuses to acknowledge them.

I'm aware of this. PP is a business that makes a killing off having a virtual monopoly. We need to fight that by supporting and expanding an alternative pro-life healthcare system. Preferably we would be utilizing the existing state and county clinics.

That's funny, because my sixth grade daughter knows all about how babies are made now. I don't know how old you are, but if all you got was images of diseased genitalia for sex ed, you either went to school in the 50s or you're lying. Or you possibly went to a private Catholic school.

 

[Pedro de San Patricio]

That's funny, because my sixth grade daughter knows all about how babies are made now. I don't know how old you are, but if all you got was images of diseased genitalia for sex ed, you either went to school in the 50s or you're lying. Or you possibly went to a private Catholic school.

Nope. A public school in Alabama. Back in the late 2000s.

 

[Jackson]

It's sickening seeing how many people use this label without knowing what it means. It's not just anti-abortion. Protecting children from the pro-abort crowd is just one facet. A true pro-life position is also:

anti-execution
pro-reform
anti-euthanasia
pro-healthcare
anti-poverty
pro-welfare
anti-war
pro-internationalism
anti-inequality
pro-immigrant
anti-sexist
pro-family
anti-racist
pro-social harmony

These aren't just words. They aren't labels. They are hard and fast positions. To call oneself pro-life and demand someone's death is a blunt contradiction. Claim to promote peace and hawk for war and you're simply the worst sort of hypocrite. Say you care about children and then leave them to starve in the streets or send them back to grow up in a war zone and you're no better than the baby butchers than whom you pretend to be any different.

Link?

 

[koshergrl]

That's funny, because my sixth grade daughter knows all about how babies are made now. I don't know how old you are, but if all you got was images of diseased genitalia for sex ed, you either went to school in the 50s or you're lying. Or you possibly went to a private Catholic school.

Nope. A public school in Alabama. Back in the late 2000s.

And you maintain you didn't know how babies were made by the time you hit high school? If you do, you're a liar.

 

[Jackson]

Pedro, I must have missed your link to your Original Post. I am terribly sorry. Would you post it again for me?

 

[Dana7360]

It's sickening seeing how many people use this label without knowing what it means. It's not just anti-abortion. Protecting children from the pro-abort crowd is just one facet. A true pro-life position is also:

anti-execution
pro-reform
anti-euthanasia
pro-healthcare
anti-poverty
pro-welfare
anti-war
pro-internationalism
anti-inequality
pro-immigrant
anti-sexist
pro-family
anti-racist
pro-social harmony

These aren't just words. They aren't labels. They are hard and fast positions. To call oneself pro-life and demand someone's death is a blunt contradiction. Claim to promote peace and hawk for war and you're simply the worst sort of hypocrite. Say you care about children and then leave them to starve in the streets or send them back to grow up in a war zone and you're no better than the baby butchers than whom you pretend to be any different.

If the government is going to force a woman to give birth to a child she doesn't want then the government better pay for it from prenatal care to until the child has the ability to support itself.

If the government doesn't want to pay for all that then the government better get it's nose out of women's bodies and leave them to decide.

Dana7360
Why isn't the govt paying for all the health care mandates
it forced on citizens we didn't get to decide on either???

If the federal programs were equally free to opt in or out of,
and all the required costs were TAX BREAKS deducted from taxes,
how many opponents would have been complaining!

I usually skip over your post, mostly because they're so long.

This one is short so I read it.

My advice to you is to read the constitution. It clearly says that the people elect representatives to write and enact laws for the nation.

That's what happened. The people had an input when they went to the polls and voted. They further had input when they had the right to call or write their representatives to tell them what they thought of the legislation. It's called democracy and following the normal constitutional process of creating and enacting law in America.

Just because the result isn't what you like or want doesn't mean it wasn't done constitutionally and legally.

Sorry Dana7360 but there is a Constitutional limit on what laws govt can make at all
The SAME Constitutional laws specifically forbid govt

* from establishing religion or prohibiting free exercise thereof,

* from depriving liberty of citizens without "due process of law" to
PROVE a crime is committed by THOSE persons by which loss of freedom is justified
(as with the ACA mandates that collectively punish ALL citizens with loss of liberty to choose how to
provide health care according to personal BELIEFS, where the govt regulates exemptions based on religion)

* or discriminating on the basis of CREED
as with rulings establishing the "right to marriage"
and "the right to health care" that not all people believe in,
yet face fines, penalties and other punishments based on beliefs
without having representation or a vote on these rulings affecting personal liberties and beliefs

I didn't get past your first sentence.

You leave out the whole truth.

The supreme court has ruled several times that Obamacare is constitutional and legal.

The constitution clearly says that the congress can regulate business. The constitution clearly says the congress has the power to wage taxes. That's all Obamacare is. New regulations on insurance and new taxes to pay for it.

You all had your say about this when you voted in 2008. You all had your say about it when it went through the congress.

What makes you think you're so special that you get to decide what's constitutional, what constitutes a law and the legal way to create and implement those laws? You aren't. Just by saying you had no say about it doesn't make it true. You saying that congress or Obamacare has gone out of the bounds of what's constitutional doesn't make it true.

What makes my words true is the supreme court and our constitution. You don't have to like it. You don't have to agree with it. You do have to accept it.

If you have a problem with it you need to take it up with conservative republican Justice John Roberts. I'm sure he can clear it up for you and he will say nearly the same things I said.

 

[Pedro de San Patricio]

And you maintain you didn't know how babies were made by the time you hit high school? If you do, you're a liar.

I did. I never said I didn't. I said that many of my peers have fucked up ideas about sex and my public school sex ed was a joke.

 

[Blackrook]

What was the topic again?

Oh yes, conservative are not allowed to be pro-life unless they endorse the entire liberal agenda.

Question for liberals: you think your compassionate to minorities, women, homosexuals, etc.

Why are your hearts hardened to the suffering of unborn children?

If I was from an alien planet, I would assume liberals would be pro-life, since they have so much compassion for other groups.

Why isn't that the case?

 

[Pedro de San Patricio]

What was the topic again?

Oh yes, conservative are not allowed to be pro-life unless they endorse the entire liberal agenda.

Question for liberals: you think your compassionate to minorities, women, homosexuals, etc.

Why are your hearts hardened to the suffering of unborn children?

If I was from an alien planet, I would assume liberals would be pro-life, since they have so much compassion for other groups.

Why isn't that the case?

Their strategy isn't compassion. It's vote pandering.

 

[frigidweirdo]

Uhm.. what does being a vegetarian have to do with pro-life? Ever heard of the food chain?

Ah, so you make some excuse and therefore it's okay to kill. Therefore you kill but call yourself pro-life.

Well, fetuses aren't considered alive, they're not humans until they come out of the woman and can sustain themselves without being connected to another person. Therefore it's not killing, therefore you can be pro-life and be pro-abortion.

There, see, I can make excuses to.

You're essentially cherry picking. Killing animals is fine because you don't give a shit about cows, pigs and chickens. Dogs, oh no, dogs are cute, and cats, but cows, fuck cows, they smell and you'd never have one in your living room. Horses, well as long as you forget that they get used for gelatin which is used in many produces from yoghurts to sweets and so on, then you're okay there too.