Apologetics Debate: God's Plan vs Free Will

[Mudda]

God's plan is to fool us to think that we have free will, when in fact, we have none. If we don't choose god, we burn in hell. That's not free will, that's a threat.

 

[Votto]

God's plan for us is for us to become like him.

Matthew 5:48
48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Since God is a being of free will, it is essential for him to give us free will so that we can learn to choose good of our own volition.

Even the command implies that we are to choose perfection of our own free will.

Doesn't strike you as somewhat ironic that God commands us to have free will?

If God's plan is for us to becone like Him, what happens if we fail? Does it screw up His plan?

How can your plan get screwed up if you already know the future?

Exactly. Therefore it follows that we don't have free will, if one goes by that belief.

Having a plan succeed does not mean you like all the events that led up to your plan succeeding.

Sure, but having a plan succeed requires that enough the requisite parts of the plan succeed. If your plan involves billions of human beings chaotically following their own freewill - and if we go by the God of Christ: most of those billions not being Christian - it seems to appear as though the plan isn't very good at all. Poor planning would not be the hallmark of the omniscient or omnipotent.

No, I don't think you follow what I'm saying.

If you are good enough in physics, if you roll a ball down a hill you can pinpoint where it will come to a stop, as well as every place it will touch and how long it will take to stop. You can calculate all this without being the cause of the ball rolling down the hill.

I think God has accomplished a similar task without actually pushing the ball down the hill. How he did this, I don't know

For me, free will has to do with the concept that God is love. In a loving relationship, both parties must be free to accept or reject the other. Otherwise, it is not love.

And if a God had full control over everything, EXCEPT free will, then it would more than likely occupy all his interest. Outside of free will, all of creation would like playing tic tac toe with yourself. So no matter how small and insignificant we may be in comparison to the rest of the universe, it would be his focus.

If I didn't understand before this post, I'm not sure I do now.

Let me see if I am at least going in the right direction: you believe in a type of "clock maker" model of Creation? God set in motion the Cosmos and then has, for the most part, let it go how it will with foreknowledge of how ALL of it will work out in the End and not interfering except for when doing so was part of the ultimate plan. Do I have that right?

What I'm saying is that God's main accomplishment was the creation of free will amongst a creation he had complete control over.

This little insignificant sliver of free will is the only power he chose to relinquish.

No matter that it does nothing to challenge his own omnipotence, it is precious to him because it hold really the only point of interest., i.e. love.
I believe that God has been in continuing involvement with his creation, and know with certainty its future, which could be seen as "predestination".. Even so, I believe that we still have free will in this predestination.

 

[Votto]

God's plan is to fool us to think that we have free will, when in fact, we have none. If we don't choose god, we burn in hell. That's not free will, that's a threat.

No, it's man who enslaves us, it is God who gives us liberty.

For example, had it not been for Moses and the 10 commandments we would still probably be slaves working 24/7.

 

[Mudda]

God's plan is to fool us to think that we have free will, when in fact, we have none. If we don't choose god, we burn in hell. That's not free will, that's a threat.

No, it's man who enslaves us, it is God who gives us liberty.

For example, had it not been for Moses and the 10 commandments we would still probably be slaves working 24/7.

You're way off topic. God threatens us with hell if we don't choose him. That's a threat.

 

[Meriweather]

You're way off topic. God threatens us with hell if we don't choose him. That's a threat.

God offers us love and salvation from evil. If an individual rejects love and protection from evil and doesn't want an existence of no love or protection from evil, what other option is there? No existence at all? Is that one acceptable to you?

 

[Mudda]

You're way off topic. God threatens us with hell if we don't choose him. That's a threat.

God offers us love and salvation from evil. If an individual rejects love and protection from evil and doesn't want an existence of no love or protection from evil, what other option is there? No existence at all? Is that one acceptable to you?

God says choose me or hell. That's no choice it's a threat.

 

[Meriweather]

God says choose me or hell. That's no choice it's a threat.

No, it is not a threat. It is an invitation into an eternal existence of goodness and love. No one is forced to accept the invitation as an existence of goodness and love does not appeal to everyone. Once again, if an eternal existence of goodness and love does not appeal, other options are limited either to an existence devoid of love and goodness--or no existence at all.

What kind of existence do you enjoy right now? Do you wish to continue in that mode eternally, or would you like to try something else?

 

[Mudda]

God says choose me or hell. That's no choice it's a threat.

No, it is not a threat. It is an invitation into an eternal existence of goodness and love. No one is forced to accept the invitation as an existence of goodness and love does not appeal to everyone. Once again, if an eternal existence of goodness and love does not appeal, other options are limited either to an existence devoid of love and goodness--or no existence at all.

What kind of existence do you enjoy right now? Do you wish to continue in that mode eternally, or would you like to try something else?

What if you don't want his "invitation" and don't want to go to hell? I don't have free will to do something else?
And what makes you think that what you sat will happen? Got some proof?

 

[Votto]

God's plan is to fool us to think that we have free will, when in fact, we have none. If we don't choose god, we burn in hell. That's not free will, that's a threat.

No, it's man who enslaves us, it is God who gives us liberty.

For example, had it not been for Moses and the 10 commandments we would still probably be slaves working 24/7.

You're way off topic. God threatens us with hell if we don't choose him. That's a threat.

God offers us a choice. We choose life/love, which he represents and which he is the source of, or we are on our own.

 

[Votto]

God says choose me or hell. That's no choice it's a threat.

No, it is not a threat. It is an invitation into an eternal existence of goodness and love. No one is forced to accept the invitation as an existence of goodness and love does not appeal to everyone. Once again, if an eternal existence of goodness and love does not appeal, other options are limited either to an existence devoid of love and goodness--or no existence at all.

What kind of existence do you enjoy right now? Do you wish to continue in that mode eternally, or would you like to try something else?

What if you don't want his "invitation" and don't want to go to hell? I don't have free will to do something else?
And what makes you think that what you sat will happen? Got some proof?

If I have a million dollars and you want some of it, you must come to me. Maybe we can do business.

If you meet my needs/demands/criteria, then you may obtain it. If not, it's not yours to take in the first place.

 

[Coloradomtnman]

God says choose me or hell. That's no choice it's a threat.

No, it is not a threat. It is an invitation into an eternal existence of goodness and love. No one is forced to accept the invitation as an existence of goodness and love does not appeal to everyone. Once again, if an eternal existence of goodness and love does not appeal, other options are limited either to an existence devoid of love and goodness--or no existence at all.

What kind of existence do you enjoy right now? Do you wish to continue in that mode eternally, or would you like to try something else?

What if you don't want his "invitation" and don't want to go to hell? I don't have free will to do something else?
And what makes you think that what you sat will happen? Got some proof?

If I have a million dollars and you want some of it, you must come to me. Maybe we can do business.

If you meet my needs/demands/criteria, then you may obtain it. If not, it's not yours to take in the first place.

This is a little off topic from the OP, but I think your analogy isn't quite accurate. To me it's more as if your offering a million dollars if I do business with you, but if I don't you'll have me killed.

 

[Coloradomtnman]

Doesn't strike you as somewhat ironic that God commands us to have free will?

If God's plan is for us to becone like Him, what happens if we fail? Does it screw up His plan?

How can your plan get screwed up if you already know the future?

Exactly. Therefore it follows that we don't have free will, if one goes by that belief.

Having a plan succeed does not mean you like all the events that led up to your plan succeeding.

Sure, but having a plan succeed requires that enough the requisite parts of the plan succeed. If your plan involves billions of human beings chaotically following their own freewill - and if we go by the God of Christ: most of those billions not being Christian - it seems to appear as though the plan isn't very good at all. Poor planning would not be the hallmark of the omniscient or omnipotent.

No, I don't think you follow what I'm saying.

If you are good enough in physics, if you roll a ball down a hill you can pinpoint where it will come to a stop, as well as every place it will touch and how long it will take to stop. You can calculate all this without being the cause of the ball rolling down the hill.

I think God has accomplished a similar task without actually pushing the ball down the hill. How he did this, I don't know

For me, free will has to do with the concept that God is love. In a loving relationship, both parties must be free to accept or reject the other. Otherwise, it is not love.

And if a God had full control over everything, EXCEPT free will, then it would more than likely occupy all his interest. Outside of free will, all of creation would like playing tic tac toe with yourself. So no matter how small and insignificant we may be in comparison to the rest of the universe, it would be his focus.

If I didn't understand before this post, I'm not sure I do now.

Let me see if I am at least going in the right direction: you believe in a type of "clock maker" model of Creation? God set in motion the Cosmos and then has, for the most part, let it go how it will with foreknowledge of how ALL of it will work out in the End and not interfering except for when doing so was part of the ultimate plan. Do I have that right?

What I'm saying is that God's main accomplishment was the creation of free will amongst a creation he had complete control over.

This little insignificant sliver of free will is the only power he chose to relinquish.

No matter that it does nothing to challenge his own omnipotence, it is precious to him because it hold really the only point of interest., i.e. love.
I believe that God has been in continuing involvement with his creation, and know with certainty its future, which could be seen as "predestination".. Even so, I believe that we still have free will in this predestination.

Alright, I think I understand what you are saying better.

How do you reconcile the "predestination" of Creation with the free will of humankind? Wouldn't predestination infringe on free will? And, if so, is free will truly free will if it is contained within preordained parameters?

 

[Meriweather]

What if you don't want his "invitation" and don't want to go to hell? I don't have free will to do something else?
And what makes you think that what you sat will happen? Got some proof?

If you don't want God's invitation to live in His presence (love and goodness), then why would you complain about an existence outside the presence of God (what believers who wish to be with God call "hell")? I would think you would be extolling the pleasures of being in a place that, unlike earth, has no inkling of God, goodness, and love. Why aren't you trying to persuade people of the pleasures of being in a place where all you need to think of is self--that never again will you be bothered by someone or something that reminds you of God?

In other words, our hell (absence of God, goodness, and love) is your heaven. Ah, never again to be bothered or nagged to be good, to love better, or to believe.

What do you want free will to do? Do you want to make others your servants? Go right ahead, but you will have to choose from those who are after the same godless existence you desire--and fight off those who wish to make you their slave.

Can you tell me what type of eternal existence is your utopia once you have ruled out love and goodness?

 

[onefour1]

God's plan for us is for us to become like him.

Matthew 5:48
48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Since God is a being of free will, it is essential for him to give us free will so that we can learn to choose good of our own volition.

Even the command implies that we are to choose perfection of our own free will.

Doesn't strike you as somewhat ironic that God commands us to have free will?

If God's plan is for us to becone like Him, what happens if we fail? Does it screw up His plan?

Where does he command us to have free will? He has already given it to us. He gives us commandments which we are free to obey or not obey. If we fail it won't be because he didn't do his part. It will be because we chose of our own free will to disobey him. This does not screw up his plan. He knows the end from the beginning. He has already prepared a places for those who will not enter his kingdom. He never planned to force you into his kingdom.

 

[onefour1]

God's plan for us is for us to become like him.

Matthew 5:48
48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Since God is a being of free will, it is essential for him to give us free will so that we can learn to choose good of our own volition.

Even the command implies that we are to choose perfection of our own free will.

Doesn't strike you as somewhat ironic that God commands us to have free will?

If God's plan is for us to becone like Him, what happens if we fail? Does it screw up His plan?

How can your plan get screwed up if you already know the future?

Exactly. Therefore it follows that we don't have free will, if one goes by that belief.

Having a plan succeed does not mean you like all the events that led up to your plan succeeding.

Sure, but having a plan succeed requires that enough the requisite parts of the plan succeed. If your plan involves billions of human beings chaotically following their own freewill - and if we go by the God of Christ: most of those billions not being Christian - it seems to appear as though the plan isn't very good at all. Poor planning would not be the hallmark of the omniscient or omnipotent.

Matthew 7:14
14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

What would you suggest God do? Would you suggest that he take our free will away and force us all to be good? He would then have to force us for all eternity and it would not be us who is good, but God only. Free will is the only way to raise the righteous. They can only become good by learning to do it of their own free will and desire. There simply is no other way. The powers of heaven cannot be entrusted to those who are not righteous. God rules eternally in justice, equity, and righteousness otherwise heaven would be a hell.

 

[Votto]

God says choose me or hell. That's no choice it's a threat.

No, it is not a threat. It is an invitation into an eternal existence of goodness and love. No one is forced to accept the invitation as an existence of goodness and love does not appeal to everyone. Once again, if an eternal existence of goodness and love does not appeal, other options are limited either to an existence devoid of love and goodness--or no existence at all.

What kind of existence do you enjoy right now? Do you wish to continue in that mode eternally, or would you like to try something else?

What if you don't want his "invitation" and don't want to go to hell? I don't have free will to do something else?
And what makes you think that what you sat will happen? Got some proof?

If I have a million dollars and you want some of it, you must come to me. Maybe we can do business.

If you meet my needs/demands/criteria, then you may obtain it. If not, it's not yours to take in the first place.

This is a little off topic from the OP, but I think your analogy isn't quite accurate. To me it's more as if your offering a million dollars if I do business with you, but if I don't you'll have me killed.

Perhaps it was a poor analogy. Let me try again.

People don't understand how God can be loving and allow suffering. Well guess what, sin causes suffering. So if God were loving, his goal should be to ultimately blot out all sin forever. Luckily that is his plan.

God has provided a way for us to destroy the sin in our lives without destroying the sinner, which we all are. If he were to continue to provide life to those who relish sinning, then he would merely prolong suffering throughout creation.

 

[Votto]

God's plan for us is for us to become like him.

Matthew 5:48
48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Since God is a being of free will, it is essential for him to give us free will so that we can learn to choose good of our own volition.

Even the command implies that we are to choose perfection of our own free will.

Doesn't strike you as somewhat ironic that God commands us to have free will?

If God's plan is for us to becone like Him, what happens if we fail? Does it screw up His plan?

How can your plan get screwed up if you already know the future?

Exactly. Therefore it follows that we don't have free will, if one goes by that belief.

Having a plan succeed does not mean you like all the events that led up to your plan succeeding.

Sure, but having a plan succeed requires that enough the requisite parts of the plan succeed. If your plan involves billions of human beings chaotically following their own freewill - and if we go by the God of Christ: most of those billions not being Christian - it seems to appear as though the plan isn't very good at all. Poor planning would not be the hallmark of the omniscient or omnipotent.

Matthew 7:14
14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

What would you suggest God do? Would you suggest that he take our free will away and force us all to be good? He would then have to force us for all eternity and it would not be us who is good, but God only. Free will is the only way to raise the righteous. They can only become good by learning to do it of their own free will and desire. There simply is no other way. The powers of heaven cannot be entrusted to those who are not righteous. God rules eternally in justice, equity, and righteousness otherwise heaven would be a hell.

As I said, the concept of love is key. A loving relationship demands the will of both parties to be free to accept or reject the other, otherwise love does not exist.

There then exists a dark side of love. At some point, you will experience rejection or a loss of a loved one in some capacity. If not, then love never existed to begin with.

Love is the door into the spiritual realm. It is the most important phenomenon in our lives but by itself it does not really exist in the material world. Unless love is shown to us as infants, we would have simply died in our cribs long ago even though we may have been provided everything else to keep us alive that we needed materially to survive. It's a scientific fact.

Love is also the reason God requires faith. People we love we place our faith in. People we don't love we don't place our faith in. Additionally, people we love we set free, we don't force them to do our bidding, and that is really what faith in God is all about. No, God will not force you to do as he says, but he hopes you will trust in him and have enough faith in him to realize that your best interest and the best interest of those you love are grounded in a child like love for him by doing his will.

Perhaps that is why God demands faith. After all, he proved his existence to Adam and Eve as he walked and talked to them in the Garden of Eden, yet they lost faith in him. God proved his existence for the children of Israel as he parted the Red Sea before them and performed many miraculous miracles and signs, yet they build a golden calf to worship in his stead. Why then would God want to prove that he exists today? More than likely, he attracts those who are attracted to himself via faith.

Paul rightly said that there is still much mystery to God. We see through a dark glass. All will pass away EXCEPT for love. Love is the only thing that is eternal.

 

[Votto]

Here is a riddle, if God created everything, then did God create sin?

 

[Meriweather]

Here is a riddle, if God created everything, then did God create sin?

Sin is "missing the mark." God created the ideal. He's willing to help us reach that mark or ideal if that is our desire.

 

[Votto]

Here is a riddle, if God created everything, then did God create sin?

Sin is "missing the mark." God created the ideal. He's willing to help us reach that mark or ideal if that is our desire.

That's the way I see it. Sin does not really exist. Sin is just the absence of God's love.

It is no small coincidence that darkness is described as the kingdom of Satan. Darkness does not really exist because it cannot be measured. All that can be measured is the absence of light, not darkness.