Apologetics Debate: God's Plan vs Free Will

[the_human_being]

Can one truly have free will if God directs the Universe?

Is God omniscient and knows already what you think and what you will do?

If God is omnipotent then does he direct every subatomic particle simultaneously or did he put the Universe into motion at the moment of creation having foreknowledge of how everything would go? How much control over our lives does He have?

If God has a plan or a purpose for Creation, then how much free will do we really have? None at all, only as much so long as our choices do not go against God's plan or purposes, or are we free to do whatever we want?

Is free will a question of all or none?

It is my contention that one can not have free will and be omniscient. If one already knows every possible outcome of every decision, not making a choice that has the most benefit would simply be arbitrarily contrary to one's own purpose - something I don't see as rational or as a trait of God.

Therefore, God, as described by Christians either does not exist, or we do not have free will.

Debate!

You paint with a wide brush when you say "all Christians". Have you not heard of Universal Reconciliation or Universalism? Those are Christian believers too. Some of you would be well served to google these beliefs for an in-depth study.

I didn't write "all Christians". I wrote "God, as described by Christians" and what meant was the God of the Bible.

Whether Universalists or Amish or Catholic or Protestant or what-have-you, God as described in the Bible either has a plan for you, me, and all of us, and for the Universe or we have free will. There is no middle ground. That is my contention.

Want to debate? That is what this thread is about: debating apologetics.

God's plan appears to be a plan to have all of mankind eventually saved. Man has refused God and turned their backs to God. God is allowing man to learn for himself that he cannot govern himself or survive without God. We are the students.


1Ti_2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.


1Ti_4:10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.


Joh_4:42 And said unto the woman, Now we believe, not because of thy saying: for we have heard him ourselves, and know that this is indeed the Christ, the Saviour of the world.


1Jn_4:14 And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.


Isa_45:23 I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.


Joh_12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.




Rom_8:21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. Rom_8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, Rom_8:19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.


Php_2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.


Rom_9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?


Jer_18:4 And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it.


Isa_55:11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

 

[tyroneweaver]

God is not a student. He doesn't create rocks heavier than he can lift. And we're not lab rats.

0k, but does God have a plan for us all and all Creation, or do we have free will?

Shouldn't make any difference on how we live. But we'll find out on that millennial day

 

[the_human_being]

Here's a good read for everyone: The Difference between Evil and Sin

 

[Coloradomtnman]

Can one truly have free will if God directs the Universe?

Is God omniscient and knows already what you think and what you will do?

If God is omnipotent then does he direct every subatomic particle simultaneously or did he put the Universe into motion at the moment of creation having foreknowledge of how everything would go? How much control over our lives does He have?

If God has a plan or a purpose for Creation, then how much free will do we really have? None at all, only as much so long as our choices do not go against God's plan or purposes, or are we free to do whatever we want?

Is free will a question of all or none?

It is my contention that one can not have free will and be omniscient. If one already knows every possible outcome of every decision, not making a choice that has the most benefit would simply be arbitrarily contrary to one's own purpose - something I don't see as rational or as a trait of God.

Therefore, God, as described by Christians either does not exist, or we do not have free will.

Debate!

You paint with a wide brush when you say "all Christians". Have you not heard of Universal Reconciliation or Universalism? Those are Christian believers too. Some of you would be well served to google these beliefs for an in-depth study.

I didn't write "all Christians". I wrote "God, as described by Christians" and what meant was the God of the Bible.

Whether Universalists or Amish or Catholic or Protestant or what-have-you, God as described in the Bible either has a plan for you, me, and all of us, and for the Universe or we have free will. There is no middle ground. That is my contention.

Want to debate? That is what this thread is about: debating apologetics.

God's plan appears to be a plan to have all of mankind eventually saved. Man has refused God and turned their backs to God. God is allowing man to learn for himself that he cannot govern himself or survive without God. We are the students.


1Ti_2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.


1Ti_4:10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.


Joh_4:42 And said unto the woman, Now we believe, not because of thy saying: for we have heard him ourselves, and know that this is indeed the Christ, the Saviour of the world.


1Jn_4:14 And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.


Isa_45:23 I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.


Joh_12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.




Rom_8:21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. Rom_8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, Rom_8:19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.


Php_2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.


Rom_9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?


Jer_18:4 And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it.


Isa_55:11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

If we are not saved, if we sin against God, do we go against His plan, and, if so, why doesn't God's plan account for that if He is omniscient?

 

[Coloradomtnman]

God is not a student. He doesn't create rocks heavier than he can lift. And we're not lab rats.

0k, but does God have a plan for us all and all Creation, or do we have free will?

Shouldn't make any difference on how we live. But we'll find out on that millennial day

Why shouldn't it make any difference? It would seem to me that God planned on me being an agnostic because if He hasn't then I'm either screwing up His plan, or God isn't omniscient.

 

[the_human_being]

Can one truly have free will if God directs the Universe?

Is God omniscient and knows already what you think and what you will do?

If God is omnipotent then does he direct every subatomic particle simultaneously or did he put the Universe into motion at the moment of creation having foreknowledge of how everything would go? How much control over our lives does He have?

If God has a plan or a purpose for Creation, then how much free will do we really have? None at all, only as much so long as our choices do not go against God's plan or purposes, or are we free to do whatever we want?

Is free will a question of all or none?

It is my contention that one can not have free will and be omniscient. If one already knows every possible outcome of every decision, not making a choice that has the most benefit would simply be arbitrarily contrary to one's own purpose - something I don't see as rational or as a trait of God.

Therefore, God, as described by Christians either does not exist, or we do not have free will.

Debate!

You paint with a wide brush when you say "all Christians". Have you not heard of Universal Reconciliation or Universalism? Those are Christian believers too. Some of you would be well served to google these beliefs for an in-depth study.

I didn't write "all Christians". I wrote "God, as described by Christians" and what meant was the God of the Bible.

Whether Universalists or Amish or Catholic or Protestant or what-have-you, God as described in the Bible either has a plan for you, me, and all of us, and for the Universe or we have free will. There is no middle ground. That is my contention.

Want to debate? That is what this thread is about: debating apologetics.

God's plan appears to be a plan to have all of mankind eventually saved. Man has refused God and turned their backs to God. God is allowing man to learn for himself that he cannot govern himself or survive without God. We are the students.


1Ti_2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.


1Ti_4:10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.


Joh_4:42 And said unto the woman, Now we believe, not because of thy saying: for we have heard him ourselves, and know that this is indeed the Christ, the Saviour of the world.


1Jn_4:14 And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.


Isa_45:23 I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.


Joh_12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.




Rom_8:21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. Rom_8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, Rom_8:19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.


Php_2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.


Rom_9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?


Jer_18:4 And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it.


Isa_55:11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

If we are not saved, if we sin against God, do we go against His plan, and, if so, why doesn't God's plan account for that if He is omniscient?

God was not created for your good pleasure. You were created for His good pleasure, whether you were created for good works or for mischief. As the Scripture I posted plainly states, some vessels were created unto honor and some unto dishonor. He has a purpose for creating some vessels to dishonor. Those vessels created for dishonor serve as teaching tools to make the saints ready for the huge task that they will undertake in the coming Kingdom of Christ upon the earth. There is a purpose for everything under heaven.

 

[the_human_being]

God is not a student. He doesn't create rocks heavier than he can lift. And we're not lab rats.

0k, but does God have a plan for us all and all Creation, or do we have free will?

Shouldn't make any difference on how we live. But we'll find out on that millennial day

Why shouldn't it make any difference? It would seem to me that God planned on me being an agnostic because if He hasn't then I'm either screwing up His plan, or God isn't omniscient.

You are what you are. In due time according to God's own schedule, your knee will bow and your tongue will confess as it is written.

 

[Coloradomtnman]

Can one truly have free will if God directs the Universe?

Is God omniscient and knows already what you think and what you will do?

If God is omnipotent then does he direct every subatomic particle simultaneously or did he put the Universe into motion at the moment of creation having foreknowledge of how everything would go? How much control over our lives does He have?

If God has a plan or a purpose for Creation, then how much free will do we really have? None at all, only as much so long as our choices do not go against God's plan or purposes, or are we free to do whatever we want?

Is free will a question of all or none?

It is my contention that one can not have free will and be omniscient. If one already knows every possible outcome of every decision, not making a choice that has the most benefit would simply be arbitrarily contrary to one's own purpose - something I don't see as rational or as a trait of God.

Therefore, God, as described by Christians either does not exist, or we do not have free will.

Debate!

You paint with a wide brush when you say "all Christians". Have you not heard of Universal Reconciliation or Universalism? Those are Christian believers too. Some of you would be well served to google these beliefs for an in-depth study.

I didn't write "all Christians". I wrote "God, as described by Christians" and what meant was the God of the Bible.

Whether Universalists or Amish or Catholic or Protestant or what-have-you, God as described in the Bible either has a plan for you, me, and all of us, and for the Universe or we have free will. There is no middle ground. That is my contention.

Want to debate? That is what this thread is about: debating apologetics.

God's plan appears to be a plan to have all of mankind eventually saved. Man has refused God and turned their backs to God. God is allowing man to learn for himself that he cannot govern himself or survive without God. We are the students.


1Ti_2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.


1Ti_4:10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.


Joh_4:42 And said unto the woman, Now we believe, not because of thy saying: for we have heard him ourselves, and know that this is indeed the Christ, the Saviour of the world.


1Jn_4:14 And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.


Isa_45:23 I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.


Joh_12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.




Rom_8:21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. Rom_8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, Rom_8:19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.


Php_2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.


Rom_9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?


Jer_18:4 And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it.


Isa_55:11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

If we are not saved, if we sin against God, do we go against His plan, and, if so, why doesn't God's plan account for that if He is omniscient?

God was not created for your good pleasure. You were created for His good pleasure, whether you were created for good works or for mischief. As the Scripture I posted plainly states, some vessels were created unto honor and some unto dishonor. He has a purpose for creating some vessels to dishonor. Those vessels created for dishonor serve as teaching tools to make the saints ready for the huge task that they will undertake in the coming Kingdom of Christ upon the earth. There is a purpose for everything under heaven.

It sounds as though you take a Calvinistic view: that we are predetermined to do God's will. God planned that I would be an agnostic, His will is that I be agnostic (at least for now...). His plan was that Hitler would rise to power and start WWII resulting in the deaths of ~50 million (mostly innocent civilians). God arranged for the USSR to exist and Stalin to kill ~20 million people. Am I right in that assessment?

 

[the_human_being]

You paint with a wide brush when you say "all Christians". Have you not heard of Universal Reconciliation or Universalism? Those are Christian believers too. Some of you would be well served to google these beliefs for an in-depth study.

I didn't write "all Christians". I wrote "God, as described by Christians" and what meant was the God of the Bible.

Whether Universalists or Amish or Catholic or Protestant or what-have-you, God as described in the Bible either has a plan for you, me, and all of us, and for the Universe or we have free will. There is no middle ground. That is my contention.

Want to debate? That is what this thread is about: debating apologetics.

God's plan appears to be a plan to have all of mankind eventually saved. Man has refused God and turned their backs to God. God is allowing man to learn for himself that he cannot govern himself or survive without God. We are the students.


1Ti_2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.


1Ti_4:10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.


Joh_4:42 And said unto the woman, Now we believe, not because of thy saying: for we have heard him ourselves, and know that this is indeed the Christ, the Saviour of the world.


1Jn_4:14 And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.


Isa_45:23 I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.


Joh_12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.




Rom_8:21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. Rom_8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, Rom_8:19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.


Php_2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.


Rom_9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?


Jer_18:4 And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it.


Isa_55:11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

If we are not saved, if we sin against God, do we go against His plan, and, if so, why doesn't God's plan account for that if He is omniscient?

God was not created for your good pleasure. You were created for His good pleasure, whether you were created for good works or for mischief. As the Scripture I posted plainly states, some vessels were created unto honor and some unto dishonor. He has a purpose for creating some vessels to dishonor. Those vessels created for dishonor serve as teaching tools to make the saints ready for the huge task that they will undertake in the coming Kingdom of Christ upon the earth. There is a purpose for everything under heaven.

It sounds as though you take a Calvinistic view: that we are predetermined to do God's will. God planned that I would be an agnostic, His will is that I be agnostic (at least for now...). His plan was that Hitler would rise to power and start WWII resulting in the deaths of ~50 million (mostly innocent civilians). God arranged for the USSR to exist and Stalin to kill ~20 million people. Am I right in that assessment?

Yes. God builds up and He tears down. I differ in a lot of ways from the Calvinists. I actually lean toward Universal Reconciliation.

 

[Coloradomtnman]

I didn't write "all Christians". I wrote "God, as described by Christians" and what meant was the God of the Bible.

Whether Universalists or Amish or Catholic or Protestant or what-have-you, God as described in the Bible either has a plan for you, me, and all of us, and for the Universe or we have free will. There is no middle ground. That is my contention.

Want to debate? That is what this thread is about: debating apologetics.

God's plan appears to be a plan to have all of mankind eventually saved. Man has refused God and turned their backs to God. God is allowing man to learn for himself that he cannot govern himself or survive without God. We are the students.


1Ti_2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.


1Ti_4:10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.


Joh_4:42 And said unto the woman, Now we believe, not because of thy saying: for we have heard him ourselves, and know that this is indeed the Christ, the Saviour of the world.


1Jn_4:14 And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.


Isa_45:23 I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.


Joh_12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.




Rom_8:21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. Rom_8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, Rom_8:19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.


Php_2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.


Rom_9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?


Jer_18:4 And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it.


Isa_55:11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

If we are not saved, if we sin against God, do we go against His plan, and, if so, why doesn't God's plan account for that if He is omniscient?

God was not created for your good pleasure. You were created for His good pleasure, whether you were created for good works or for mischief. As the Scripture I posted plainly states, some vessels were created unto honor and some unto dishonor. He has a purpose for creating some vessels to dishonor. Those vessels created for dishonor serve as teaching tools to make the saints ready for the huge task that they will undertake in the coming Kingdom of Christ upon the earth. There is a purpose for everything under heaven.

It sounds as though you take a Calvinistic view: that we are predetermined to do God's will. God planned that I would be an agnostic, His will is that I be agnostic (at least for now...). His plan was that Hitler would rise to power and start WWII resulting in the deaths of ~50 million (mostly innocent civilians). God arranged for the USSR to exist and Stalin to kill ~20 million people. Am I right in that assessment?

Yes. God builds up and He tears down. I differ in a lot of ways from the Calvinists. I actually lean toward Universal Reconciliation.

If I understand correctly, Universal Reconciliation would be the belief that ALL souls will one day be reconciled with God in Heaven despite sin and there is no eternal damnation?

If all is preordained by God, do we have free will?

 

[onefour1]

God's plan for us is for us to become like him.

Matthew 5:48
48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Since God is a being of free will, it is essential for him to give us free will so that we can learn to choose good of our own volition.

Even the command implies that we are to choose perfection of our own free will.

 

[the_human_being]

God's plan appears to be a plan to have all of mankind eventually saved. Man has refused God and turned their backs to God. God is allowing man to learn for himself that he cannot govern himself or survive without God. We are the students.


1Ti_2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.


1Ti_4:10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.


Joh_4:42 And said unto the woman, Now we believe, not because of thy saying: for we have heard him ourselves, and know that this is indeed the Christ, the Saviour of the world.


1Jn_4:14 And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.


Isa_45:23 I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.


Joh_12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.




Rom_8:21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. Rom_8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, Rom_8:19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.


Php_2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.


Rom_9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?


Jer_18:4 And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it.


Isa_55:11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

If we are not saved, if we sin against God, do we go against His plan, and, if so, why doesn't God's plan account for that if He is omniscient?

God was not created for your good pleasure. You were created for His good pleasure, whether you were created for good works or for mischief. As the Scripture I posted plainly states, some vessels were created unto honor and some unto dishonor. He has a purpose for creating some vessels to dishonor. Those vessels created for dishonor serve as teaching tools to make the saints ready for the huge task that they will undertake in the coming Kingdom of Christ upon the earth. There is a purpose for everything under heaven.

It sounds as though you take a Calvinistic view: that we are predetermined to do God's will. God planned that I would be an agnostic, His will is that I be agnostic (at least for now...). His plan was that Hitler would rise to power and start WWII resulting in the deaths of ~50 million (mostly innocent civilians). God arranged for the USSR to exist and Stalin to kill ~20 million people. Am I right in that assessment?

Yes. God builds up and He tears down. I differ in a lot of ways from the Calvinists. I actually lean toward Universal Reconciliation.

If I understand correctly, Universal Reconciliation would be the belief that ALL souls will one day be reconciled with God in Heaven despite sin and there is no eternal damnation?

If all is preordained by God, do we have free will?

Rom_8:21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. Rom_8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, Rom_8:19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.


Php_2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.


Rom_9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?


Jer_18:4 And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it.


Isa_55:11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

From the Scriptures I posted above, does it really sound like you have free will? I don't think so.

 

[Votto]

If we are not saved, if we sin against God, do we go against His plan, and, if so, why doesn't God's plan account for that if He is omniscient?

God was not created for your good pleasure. You were created for His good pleasure, whether you were created for good works or for mischief. As the Scripture I posted plainly states, some vessels were created unto honor and some unto dishonor. He has a purpose for creating some vessels to dishonor. Those vessels created for dishonor serve as teaching tools to make the saints ready for the huge task that they will undertake in the coming Kingdom of Christ upon the earth. There is a purpose for everything under heaven.

It sounds as though you take a Calvinistic view: that we are predetermined to do God's will. God planned that I would be an agnostic, His will is that I be agnostic (at least for now...). His plan was that Hitler would rise to power and start WWII resulting in the deaths of ~50 million (mostly innocent civilians). God arranged for the USSR to exist and Stalin to kill ~20 million people. Am I right in that assessment?

Yes. God builds up and He tears down. I differ in a lot of ways from the Calvinists. I actually lean toward Universal Reconciliation.

If I understand correctly, Universal Reconciliation would be the belief that ALL souls will one day be reconciled with God in Heaven despite sin and there is no eternal damnation?

If all is preordained by God, do we have free will?

Rom_8:21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. Rom_8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, Rom_8:19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.


Php_2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.


Rom_9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?


Jer_18:4 And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it.


Isa_55:11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

From the Scriptures I posted above, does it really sound like you have free will? I don't think so.

If free will does not exist, it then seems odd that we get so bent out of shape when we perceive it to be violated.

I think there to be a distinction between knowing what will happen and causing something to happen. I think it entirely possible that God allows free will even though he knows what the outcome of that will entail.

We even can pretty much predict what the behavior of people we know in our own lives will be, simply because we understand what makes the tick. We have no power over their free will, we simply understand how they think.

 

[Coloradomtnman]

God's plan for us is for us to become like him.

Matthew 5:48
48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Since God is a being of free will, it is essential for him to give us free will so that we can learn to choose good of our own volition.

Even the command implies that we are to choose perfection of our own free will.

Doesn't strike you as somewhat ironic that God commands us to have free will?

If God's plan is for us to becone like Him, what happens if we fail? Does it screw up His plan?

 

[Votto]

God's plan for us is for us to become like him.

Matthew 5:48
48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Since God is a being of free will, it is essential for him to give us free will so that we can learn to choose good of our own volition.

Even the command implies that we are to choose perfection of our own free will.

Doesn't strike you as somewhat ironic that God commands us to have free will?

If God's plan is for us to becone like Him, what happens if we fail? Does it screw up His plan?

How can your plan get screwed up if you already know the future?

Having a plan succeed does not mean you like all the events that led up to your plan succeeding.

 

[Coloradomtnman]

God's plan for us is for us to become like him.

Matthew 5:48
48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Since God is a being of free will, it is essential for him to give us free will so that we can learn to choose good of our own volition.

Even the command implies that we are to choose perfection of our own free will.

Doesn't strike you as somewhat ironic that God commands us to have free will?

If God's plan is for us to becone like Him, what happens if we fail? Does it screw up His plan?

How can your plan get screwed up if you already know the future?

Exactly. Therefore it follows that we don't have free will, if one goes by that belief.

Having a plan succeed does not mean you like all the events that led up to your plan succeeding.

Sure, but having a plan succeed requires that enough the requisite parts of the plan succeed. If your plan involves billions of human beings chaotically following their own freewill - and if we go by the God of Christ: most of those billions not being Christian - it seems to appear as though the plan isn't very good at all. Poor planning would not be the hallmark of the omniscient or omnipotent.

 

[Coloradomtnman]

I listen to a podcast called "Unbelievable" which is put out by a UK-based Christian radio station. It's a program that features debates between Christians and non-Christians, usually about apologetics. I recommend it to anyone interested in Christian apologetics. Justin Briarly, the host and moderator, is fantastic at moderating the debates. He's a Christian but he does a great job at remaining neutral.

Anyway, he read an email the other day written by a Christian that featured a joke about predetermination and free will:

A Calvinist goes to Heaven and upon arriving at the Pearly Gates he sees two lines of people entering. A sign next to one of the lines reads "Predestination " and a sign next to the other reads "Freewill". The Calvinist gets into the Predestination line.

After awhile an Angel comes up and asks him, "What are you doing in this line?"

The Calvinist replies, "I chose it."

The Angel says, "Well, then you should be in that line" pointing to the other line.

So the Calvinist gets into the line for Freewill. After awhile another Angel comes up and asks him, "Why are you waiting in this line?"

The Calvinist replies, "An Angel told me to."

 

[Votto]

God's plan for us is for us to become like him.

Matthew 5:48
48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Since God is a being of free will, it is essential for him to give us free will so that we can learn to choose good of our own volition.

Even the command implies that we are to choose perfection of our own free will.

Doesn't strike you as somewhat ironic that God commands us to have free will?

If God's plan is for us to becone like Him, what happens if we fail? Does it screw up His plan?

How can your plan get screwed up if you already know the future?

Exactly. Therefore it follows that we don't have free will, if one goes by that belief.

Having a plan succeed does not mean you like all the events that led up to your plan succeeding.

Sure, but having a plan succeed requires that enough the requisite parts of the plan succeed. If your plan involves billions of human beings chaotically following their own freewill - and if we go by the God of Christ: most of those billions not being Christian - it seems to appear as though the plan isn't very good at all. Poor planning would not be the hallmark of the omniscient or omnipotent.

No, I don't think you follow what I'm saying.

If you are good enough in physics, if you roll a ball down a hill you can pinpoint where it will come to a stop, as well as every place it will touch and how long it will take to stop. You can calculate all this without being the cause of the ball rolling down the hill.

I think God has accomplished a similar task without actually pushing the ball down the hill. How he did this, I don't know

For me, free will has to do with the concept that God is love. In a loving relationship, both parties must be free to accept or reject the other. Otherwise, it is not love.

And if a God had full control over everything, EXCEPT free will, then it would more than likely occupy all his interest. Outside of free will, all of creation would like playing tic tac toe with yourself. So no matter how small and insignificant we may be in comparison to the rest of the universe, it would be his focus.

 

[Coloradomtnman]

God's plan for us is for us to become like him.

Matthew 5:48
48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Since God is a being of free will, it is essential for him to give us free will so that we can learn to choose good of our own volition.

Even the command implies that we are to choose perfection of our own free will.

Doesn't strike you as somewhat ironic that God commands us to have free will?

If God's plan is for us to becone like Him, what happens if we fail? Does it screw up His plan?

How can your plan get screwed up if you already know the future?

Exactly. Therefore it follows that we don't have free will, if one goes by that belief.

Having a plan succeed does not mean you like all the events that led up to your plan succeeding.

Sure, but having a plan succeed requires that enough the requisite parts of the plan succeed. If your plan involves billions of human beings chaotically following their own freewill - and if we go by the God of Christ: most of those billions not being Christian - it seems to appear as though the plan isn't very good at all. Poor planning would not be the hallmark of the omniscient or omnipotent.

No, I don't think you follow what I'm saying.

If you are good enough in physics, if you roll a ball down a hill you can pinpoint where it will come to a stop, as well as every place it will touch and how long it will take to stop. You can calculate all this without being the cause of the ball rolling down the hill.

I think God has accomplished a similar task without actually pushing the ball down the hill. How he did this, I don't know

For me, free will has to do with the concept that God is love. In a loving relationship, both parties must be free to accept or reject the other. Otherwise, it is not love.

And if a God had full control over everything, EXCEPT free will, then it would more than likely occupy all his interest. Outside of free will, all of creation would like playing tic tac toe with yourself. So no matter how small and insignificant we may be in comparison to the rest of the universe, it would be his focus.

If I didn't understand before this post, I'm not sure I do now.

Let me see if I am at least going in the right direction: you believe in a type of "clock maker" model of Creation? God set in motion the Cosmos and then has, for the most part, let it go how it will with foreknowledge of how ALL of it will work out in the End and not interfering except for when doing so was part of the ultimate plan. Do I have that right?

 

[aris2chat]

God's plan for us is for us to become like him.

Matthew 5:48
48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Since God is a being of free will, it is essential for him to give us free will so that we can learn to choose good of our own volition.

Even the command implies that we are to choose perfection of our own free will.

Doesn't strike you as somewhat ironic that God commands us to have free will?

If God's plan is for us to becone like Him, what happens if we fail? Does it screw up His plan?

How can your plan get screwed up if you already know the future?

Exactly. Therefore it follows that we don't have free will, if one goes by that belief.

Having a plan succeed does not mean you like all the events that led up to your plan succeeding.

Sure, but having a plan succeed requires that enough the requisite parts of the plan succeed. If your plan involves billions of human beings chaotically following their own freewill - and if we go by the God of Christ: most of those billions not being Christian - it seems to appear as though the plan isn't very good at all. Poor planning would not be the hallmark of the omniscient or omnipotent.

No, I don't think you follow what I'm saying.

If you are good enough in physics, if you roll a ball down a hill you can pinpoint where it will come to a stop, as well as every place it will touch and how long it will take to stop. You can calculate all this without being the cause of the ball rolling down the hill.

I think God has accomplished a similar task without actually pushing the ball down the hill. How he did this, I don't know

For me, free will has to do with the concept that God is love. In a loving relationship, both parties must be free to accept or reject the other. Otherwise, it is not love.

And if a God had full control over everything, EXCEPT free will, then it would more than likely occupy all his interest. Outside of free will, all of creation would like playing tic tac toe with yourself. So no matter how small and insignificant we may be in comparison to the rest of the universe, it would be his focus.

If I didn't understand before this post, I'm not sure I do now.

Let me see if I am at least going in the right direction: you believe in a type of "clock maker" model of Creation? God set in motion the Cosmos and then has, for the most part, let it go how it will with foreknowledge of how ALL of it will work out in the End and not interfering except for when doing so was part of the ultimate plan. Do I have that right?

Any question why so many keep saying "cuckoo, cuckoo"?