If you have questions about Judaism

[MHunterB]

I would also add to the list of excellent references

Ontario Consultants on Religious Tolerance - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[eflatminor]

Eflat - I think that's less of 'support', than finding the Republicans' Christofascist cheerleading very repellent. And there's the matter of official Republican extremism and hypocrisy on their 'pro-life' plank.

To the extent that the GOP represented the 'bluebloods' of the WASP establishment - well, that's who came up with those quotas in universities in decades past. The GOP now seems to more represnt the 'good ol' boys' wing of Protestant Christianity, which is STILL intent on dragging its faith into the public schools, etc.

You missed my point. I asked why Jews stand against the notion of limited government. That is NOT the position of Republicans, not for decades anyway. What I'm really asking is why aren't Jews Libertarians? They tend to vote in exactly the opposite manner, for Liberal Democrats, despite the history with central planners. It's baffling.

And finally, American Jews do not ALL vote based on how they perceive the candidate perceiving Israel. We are Jews AND we are US citizens - and most of us are very much aware from our personal family history that we literally owe our lives to being American.

Yet you overwhelmingly vote for the party that most hates Israel. That is strange to me.

Mostly, I think Jews just vote the way everyone else does: based on their perception of which individuals are going to move this nation closer to what we as individuals regard as fulfilling the potential outlined in our Constitution.

Have to call bullshit! I find no Constitutional conservatism among Jewish voters, which is the very thing that defines limiting federal powers. You vote for the party and people that seek to ignore the Constitution as they move us towards more and more central planning. Again, how'd central planners work out for Jews in Germany? In the USSR? Among the Middle East dictators?

 

[rosends]

If you have any questions about Judaism, feel free to ask.

Okay, I'll bite.

The Democratic party and American Liberals in general seem to me to be the most fervent opposition to all things Israeli. For that reason alone, I don't understand why Jews give them such strong support.

Perhaps more importantly are the lessons apparently not learned from Nazi Germany, Soviet Russia, and other centrally planned societies where Jews fared, shall we say...poorly, while in the decidedly less centralized American experiment, Jews THRIVED.

I'm continually flabbergasted by American Jews support of ever bigger government. Given how past big central governments treated Jews, one would think Jews today would be the most staunch limited government supporters out there but just the opposite is true.

So, my question is why does the Jewish community support the Liberal Democrats that seem to despise Israel and the idea of big government that nearly caused their annihilation?

a few random thoughts. Jewish affection for the democratic party (though I'm personally not a member of either party and vote issues not parties) might stem from a sense that the welfare/civic sense of the democratic party falls in line with certain tenets regarding charity and communal mutual support. A party which supports government programming which supports the indigent etc, would correlate to a religious sense that any religious local governing body should be doing the same things and would have to be of a size to provide many social programs.

as to your next note about centrally planned societies, the fact is, jews fared poorly in systems of all sorts. it doesn't take a dictator to have people who hate jews. But Israel was founded with a strong socialist economic structure (the kibbutz and moshav model) so the idea of shared wealth is not alien to the sensibility.

Jews have thrived in the US (as any aware jew says... "so far") not because of the economic system but because of the political one, and even under that it hasn't always been easy. The American notion of democratic republic and its particular mix of and interpretation of law has been relatively good for the Jews but that is more a result of a particular confluence of history and culture and not a particular practice endemic to all similar political structures.

The double edged sword of the Democratic party is that it has no inherent link to Israel whereas the Republican base, which some would characterize as Christian-leaning has a reason to pull for Israel (for good and for bad). One can almost see those of a liberal mind championing any downtrodden underdog and while that was Israel, then so be it. But the winds of politics change.

Just some thoughts.

 

[rosends]

I find no Constitutional conservatism among Jewish voters, which is the very thing that defines limiting federal powers. You vote for the party and people that seek to ignore the Constitution as they move us towards more and more central planning. Again, how'd central planners work out for Jews in Germany? In the USSR? Among the Middle East dictators?

then you aren't looking. There is a growing trend of Jewish conservatism (and historically Jewish Voting Record: U.S. Presidential Elections (1916-2008) chunks of Jews have voted Republican). We don't vote as a bloc. We have opinions often driven by other aspects of our personalities and experiences. My wife votes on abortion and that's mostly it. My friend votes on taxes. Another, on Israel. And yet we are all Orthodox Jews.

 

[eflatminor]

If you have any questions about Judaism, feel free to ask.

Okay, I'll bite.

The Democratic party and American Liberals in general seem to me to be the most fervent opposition to all things Israeli. For that reason alone, I don't understand why Jews give them such strong support.

Perhaps more importantly are the lessons apparently not learned from Nazi Germany, Soviet Russia, and other centrally planned societies where Jews fared, shall we say...poorly, while in the decidedly less centralized American experiment, Jews THRIVED.

I'm continually flabbergasted by American Jews support of ever bigger government. Given how past big central governments treated Jews, one would think Jews today would be the most staunch limited government supporters out there but just the opposite is true.

So, my question is why does the Jewish community support the Liberal Democrats that seem to despise Israel and the idea of big government that nearly caused their annihilation?

a few random thoughts. Jewish affection for the democratic party (though I'm personally not a member of either party and vote issues not parties) might stem from a sense that the welfare/civic sense of the democratic party falls in line with certain tenets regarding charity and communal mutual support. A party which supports government programming which supports the indigent etc, would correlate to a religious sense that any religious local governing body should be doing the same things and would have to be of a size to provide many social programs.

If true, then Jews are confusing charity and communal mutual support, a VOLUNTARY idea, with redistribution, a concept requiring the force of government. They seem to forget what happens when governments acquire the power to force their will on the people.

as to your next note about centrally planned societies, the fact is, jews fared poorly in systems of all sorts.

Except America, the one society that stood against central planning. Here, Jews thrived. That such a disparity of outcomes exists for all to see yet is rejected by the very people that suffered under central planners I find remarkable.

it doesn't take a dictator to have people who hate jews. But Israel was founded with a strong socialist economic structure (the kibbutz and moshav model) so the idea of shared wealth is not alien to the sensibility.

Nobody in Israel is FORCED to join a kibbutz. It's voluntary as is the charity they undertake. The kibbutz is a perfect example of how real charity can work. All the failing Socialist societies is evidence that forced redistribution does not work. Yet, we know Jews vote not for voluntary charity but for forced redistribution.

Jews have thrived in the US (as any aware jew says... "so far") not because of the economic system but because of the political one, and even under that it hasn't always been easy. The American notion of democratic republic and its particular mix of and interpretation of law has been relatively good for the Jews but that is more a result of a particular confluence of history and culture and not a particular practice endemic to all similar political structures.

I strongly disagree that "Jews have thrived in the US not because of the economic system..." Our economic system, and the politics that are SUPPOSED to get out of the way of individual economic freedom, is exactly why Jews and everyone else in America has thrived. It's why our poor are considered rich around the world. It's why we have only a small percentage of the population yet have the strongest economy.

The double edged sword of the Democratic party is that it has no inherent link to Israel whereas the Republican base, which some would characterize as Christian-leaning has a reason to pull for Israel (for good and for bad). One can almost see those of a liberal mind championing any downtrodden underdog and while that was Israel, then so be it. But the winds of politics change.

I'm not suggesting Jews should all become Republicans. I'm suggesting they should stop supporting the ideas of central planning and those that hate Israel, for such ideas have harmed them so significantly in the past.

 

[eflatminor]

I find no Constitutional conservatism among Jewish voters, which is the very thing that defines limiting federal powers. You vote for the party and people that seek to ignore the Constitution as they move us towards more and more central planning. Again, how'd central planners work out for Jews in Germany? In the USSR? Among the Middle East dictators?

then you aren't looking. There is a growing trend of Jewish conservatism (and historically Jewish Voting Record: U.S. Presidential Elections (1916-2008) chunks of Jews have voted Republican). We don't vote as a bloc. We have opinions often driven by other aspects of our personalities and experiences. My wife votes on abortion and that's mostly it. My friend votes on taxes. Another, on Israel. And yet we are all Orthodox Jews.

I would argue your voting examples (wife, friends, you) are not indicative of the Jewish vote, which we all know is overwhelmingly in support of liberal democrats. Again, regardless of any one position those Dems might take that you would agree with, I remain baffled by the idea of supporting the party that stands for more central control and outwardly hates Israel.

It's like saying "Sure, central planners nearly exterminated our entire race and yes, today's Democrats abhor our people in Israel...but I'll vote for them anyway because they support abortion". Can you see why someone might find that...odd?

 

[rosends]

I find no Constitutional conservatism among Jewish voters, which is the very thing that defines limiting federal powers. You vote for the party and people that seek to ignore the Constitution as they move us towards more and more central planning. Again, how'd central planners work out for Jews in Germany? In the USSR? Among the Middle East dictators?

then you aren't looking. There is a growing trend of Jewish conservatism (and historically Jewish Voting Record: U.S. Presidential Elections (1916-2008) chunks of Jews have voted Republican). We don't vote as a bloc. We have opinions often driven by other aspects of our personalities and experiences. My wife votes on abortion and that's mostly it. My friend votes on taxes. Another, on Israel. And yet we are all Orthodox Jews.

I would argue your voting examples (wife, friends, you) are not indicative of the Jewish vote, which we all know is overwhelmingly in support of liberal democrats.

this is exactly my point, though. no one jew is indicative of the "jewish vote." your question retains power under the following structure:
why would ANY (not most or all) individual jew who holds the safety of israel (in one particular understanding of it) as paramount, even moreso than any relationship with other political policies, foreign or domestic, vote for a party which has, within the last 20 years, often had foreign policy which was not always most sympathetic to and supportive of most any israeli initiative?

The fact is, regardless of the party in power, america has been a great friend to israel. discussing the various shades that any administration adopts which are sperate from another would lead one to see politicians and administrations from both parties who were less than fully supportive. How many of both parties have promised to move the embassy and how many have? Politics is a dirty game. This is why I stay clear.

 

[rosends]

If true, then Jews are confusing charity and communal mutual support, a VOLUNTARY idea, with redistribution, a concept requiring the force of government. They seem to forget what happens when governments acquire the power to force their will on the people.

but in Judaism, communal mutual support and charity are NOT voluntary. That's the point. They are not personal expressions of largesse but religiously demanded behaviors. And a regulated marketplace is also a tenet of the Jewish religion. The absolute free market is not within the bounds of Judaism.

America works, I think, because (if my 7th grade history education was accurate) there is the view that it is the responsibility of the majority to protect the rights and right to express ideas of the minority. Jews benefit from this sometimes. But Jews also benefited from monarchies when they smiled on Jews, and from localized government when it served best.

 

[MHunterB]

Rosends is Orthodox, I'm Recon (more or less), and I think we basically agree so far.

 

[eflatminor]

then you aren't looking. There is a growing trend of Jewish conservatism (and historically Jewish Voting Record: U.S. Presidential Elections (1916-2008) chunks of Jews have voted Republican). We don't vote as a bloc. We have opinions often driven by other aspects of our personalities and experiences. My wife votes on abortion and that's mostly it. My friend votes on taxes. Another, on Israel. And yet we are all Orthodox Jews.

I would argue your voting examples (wife, friends, you) are not indicative of the Jewish vote, which we all know is overwhelmingly in support of liberal democrats.

this is exactly my point, though. no one jew is indicative of the "jewish vote." your question retains power under the following structure:
why would ANY (not most or all) individual jew who holds the safety of israel (in one particular understanding of it) as paramount, even moreso than any relationship with other political policies, foreign or domestic, vote for a party which has, within the last 20 years, often had foreign policy which was not always most sympathetic to and supportive of most any israeli initiative?

The fact is, regardless of the party in power, america has been a great friend to israel. discussing the various shades that any administration adopts which are sperate from another would lead one to see politicians and administrations from both parties who were less than fully supportive. How many of both parties have promised to move the embassy and how many have? Politics is a dirty game. This is why I stay clear.

Sounds like you're arguing that Democrats may talk a tough anti-Israel game but in reality, America continues to support Israel even when they're in power. Fair enough. Still odd that Jews would support them in such overwhelming numbers, but fair enough.

So why then the blinders to history? Why the apparent inability to see how centrally planned societies have harmed Jews in the past? Why the inability to compare those centrally planned societies to decentralized America, where Jews thrive? How can Jews who suffered so abhorrently under every single example of a society with an all powerful central government vote year after year for a stronger central government?

Logically, the Libertarian party should be supported heavily by Jews, not the party that is pushing for a system of government that never, ever worked out well for them in the past.

 

[eflatminor]

If true, then Jews are confusing charity and communal mutual support, a VOLUNTARY idea, with redistribution, a concept requiring the force of government. They seem to forget what happens when governments acquire the power to force their will on the people.

but in Judaism, communal mutual support and charity are NOT voluntary. That's the point. They are not personal expressions of largesse but religiously demanded behaviors. And a regulated marketplace is also a tenet of the Jewish religion. The absolute free market is not within the bounds of Judaism.

More ignorance to history. Combining religious doctrine with central government oversight, how as that worked in the past?

America works, I think, because (if my 7th grade history education was accurate) there is the view that it is the responsibility of the majority to protect the rights and right to express ideas of the minority.

Your 7th grade history was flawed. There is NOTHING in Constitution or the ideals that America was founded upon that the majority has a responsibility to protect the minority. Our government has the responsibility to ensure everyone remains free, regardless of how anyone chooses to divide the people into classes, majorities or minorities. America worked because the people remained free, not because of some perceived responsibility owed from a group of citizens.

Jews benefit from this sometimes. But Jews also benefited from monarchies when they smiled on Jews, and from localized government when it served best.

And when those central planners, be they Kings, dictators, Fascists, or Communists did not smile on the Jews, disaster ensued. But you keep voting for more central planners, NOT the idea of decentralized government, which overwhelming served Jews best. That is what is so hard to understand.

 

[amrchaos]

I happen upon another question, and it is more or less due to my own ignorance of the matter so please excuse for my ignorance here.

What do you(and, if it is possible to expand upon most Jews) view the role and purpose of Israel to yourselves and to the world?

Maybe this should be talked about in another thread?

 

[Sunni Man]

How often do you swing chickens over your head?

And why do you do it??

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bTr5ddqaBbc]Man swinging chicken in Kaporos ritual, Crown Heights, Brooklyn, Sept 16, 2010 - YouTube[/ame]

 

[amrchaos]

Where I am from, swinging chickens by the neck was a way to kill them. One quick jerk--if that did not work, try another.

 

[rosends]

Why the apparent inability to see how centrally planned societies have harmed Jews in the past? Why the inability to compare those centrally planned societies to decentralized America, where Jews thrive? How can Jews who suffered so abhorrently under every single example of a society with an all powerful central government vote year after year for a stronger central government?

as we say in the yeshiva world: "you ask well."

I guess (and only guess) that the answer would be on one level - Jews (though I shouldn't speak of Jews as a bloc) are accustomed to the ultimate central government with a theocracy that endows small groups with ultimate power. That wouldn't apply to sections of the overall Jewish population which don't feel that heritage based link so acutely, but those are those who might not necessarily be voting as an extension of their religion. You are expecting that the random Jew votes his religious/historic sensibility first and then with other aspects of himself. But that doesn't apply to huge chunks of the Jewish population.

Also, the random Jew might look at the US and the relative success here and might decide that regardless of the behaviors of one administration, the underlying America won't change into a fascist state within the next 4 years so one can sidestep centralization arguments and vote based on other smaller, more immediate ones. The wife is worried that abortion will be outlawed on Jan 21st. Any worry about a slow decline into totalitarianism over the next few years doesn't seem as problematic to her (in fact she sees the religio-legal sensibilities of the republicans to be a faster descent into a central government ethos than the perceived social freedoms of the democrats).

I happen to be a libertarian on paper and a ___________ in reality (I keep my personal politics secret -- not even the wife knows.)

 

[rosends]

How often do you swing chickens over your head?

And why do you do it??

Man swinging chicken in Kaporos ritual, Crown Heights, Brooklyn, Sept 16, 2010 - YouTube

I don't -- I swing a 20 dollar bill and then donate it to charity. As of yet, the US mint has not complained.

 

[rosends]

I happen upon another question, and it is more or less due to my own ignorance of the matter so please excuse for my ignorance here.

What do you(and, if it is possible to expand upon most Jews) view the role and purpose of Israel to yourselves and to the world?

Maybe this should be talked about in another thread?

Israel is more than one thing so it means more than one thing. It is an idea and an ideal -- a spiritual center and a theoretical construct. It is also a political reality, a flawed expression of nationalistic fervor that has allowed incredible opportunity as a culmination of the dream of hundreds and thousands of years. It is also a heckuva vacation spot. If you go, visit Moshikos on Ben Yehuda. And get the felafel. The schwarma is over rated.

As for place in the world, I don't know -- I think I have a place in the world and would with or without Israel. Israel, as that expression of Judaism (in one sense) might be said to have a magnified version of that same role. But because Israel isn't a person but is a human construct, rife with the frailties of mankind similarly magnified, it often fails (or even can't be expected more than any other similar construct) to uphold those standards.

 

[rosends]

More ignorance to history. Combining religious doctrine with central government oversight, how as that worked in the past?

in temple times it worked out beautifully and is the future aspiration of religious Jews. As such, a government which centralizes and imposes collective will is not necessarily a bad thing.

Your 7th grade history was flawed. There is NOTHING in Constitution or the ideals that America was founded upon that the majority has a responsibility to protect the minority. Our government has the responsibility to ensure everyone remains free, regardless of how anyone chooses to divide the people into classes, majorities or minorities. America worked because the people remained free, not because of some perceived responsibility owed from a group of citizens.

I don't recall being told that it was a constitutional point, but an underlying mantra which drove behavior and helped craft the form of republic for which we sometimes stand.

And when those central planners, be they Kings, dictators, Fascists, or Communists did not smile on the Jews, disaster ensued. But you keep voting for more central planners, NOT the idea of decentralized government, which overwhelming served Jews best. That is what is so hard to understand.

and when the democracy of ancient greece was against the jews, things weren't so good either. and democratic socialists weren't so hot either. the distinction which jews might not be worried about crossing is that between republic-democracy and totalitarianism. you are asking why jews would vote for a government which is centralized and maybe one answer is that centralized doesn't mean an abandoning (necessarily) of those things which make the democratic system work and protect minorities.

 

[BreezeWood]

Genesis 1:26

Then God said, “Let us make man in our image, after our likeness. And let them have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the heavens and over the livestock and over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.”

And let them have dominion ...



the Tree of Forbidden Fruits -

our congregation believes the Judea / Christian Bible is Gods means of chronologicalizing in text form the Forbidden Fruits mankind has chosen as the cause for his dissent from the OuterWorld of the Everlasting -

as inadvertently being ascribed to God when in reality are the actual faults separating man from God.


do you believe correct, that after being expelled from the Garden of Eden - God would grant Domain to mankind over the Garden of Earth or that in fact God would grant any such thing as Domain for any purpose whatsoever -

in fact Domain in itself is a Forbidden Fruit only mankind would ascribe to himself as being a Forbidden Fruit that must be absolved for their to be the fulfillment of Gods commandment for Remission.

I am still not sure exactly what you are getting at -- man has certain types of dominion over the world and the animals. We get to eat some of them and use them for work etc. We also have some power over land, itself. But this "dominion" is tempered by law -- it is not absolute (and I suspect it was never meant to be).

"-- man has certain types of dominion over the world and the animals".


- you have given your answer to the question rosends, from one Garden to the next ... good luck.

of course the Edenist Congregation disagrees with the Jewish covenant.

 

[Saigon]

... i have NEVER heard of anyone throwing stones at ambulances. .

That doesn't mean it doesn't happen - that means you have not heard of it.

Have you ever lived in Israel?

If not - why would you imagine you would have heard about what happens in Mea Shearim?