Alright, I Don't Understand, What Is It That Conservatives Want?

[editec]

I've known some liberals who were racists.

They actually digust me more than overt NAZIs do, to be honest.

Why?

Because they really never understand how racist they really are, that's why.

They're convinced they're defending the high ground when in fact they're wallowing in the bog of their own sense of moral superiority.

 

[LiveUninhibited]

Thwart civil rights, and women's suffrage? Hmmm that's a new one on me. I didn't know conservatives were doing that. Could you explain that so I know exactly what your talking about?

Historically the people who did that were, at the time, considered conservative by some definitions. At the very least the definition that conservatives want to maintain either the status quo or tradition. Those who were opposed to the Civil Rights Movement. Were they liberal or conservative or other? I'd think conservative, but that doesn't necessarily say much about today's conservatives in itself.

I like that. "More Republicans than Democrats fought for and supported civil rights, but since we considered the guys who opposed it to be conservative, you get to be guilty by association based on what WE THOUGHT, rather than on what YOUR PARTY ACTUALLY DID."

Only in liberal Lalaland are their diseased imaginings thought to constitute reality.

I didn't say Republicans vs. Democrats. Democrats were not always liberal.

Here's a breakdown of voting by region and party for the Civil Rights Act of 1964, yea's are on the left:

By party and region
Note : "Southern", as used in this section, refers to members of Congress from the eleven states that made up the Confederate States of America in the American Civil War. "Northern" refers to members from the other 39 states, regardless of the geographic location of those states.

The original House version:

Southern Democrats: 7-87 (7%-93%)
Southern Republicans: 0-10 (0%-100%)
Northern Democrats: 145-9 (94%-6%)
Northern Republicans: 138-24 (85%-15%)

The Senate version:

Southern Democrats: 1-20 (5%-95%) (only Senator Ralph Yarborough of Texas voted in favor)
Southern Republicans: 0-1 (0%-100%) (this was Senator John Tower of Texas)
Northern Democrats: 45-1 (98%-2%) (only Senator Robert Byrd of West Virginia opposed the measure)
Northern Republicans: 27-5 (84%-16%) (Senators Bourke Hickenlooper of Iowa, Barry Goldwater of Arizona, Edwin L. Mechem of New Mexico, Milward L. Simpson of Wyoming, and Norris H. Cotton of New Hampshire opposed the measure)

King, Desmond (1995). Separate and Unequal: Black Americans and the US Federal Government. p. 311.

What does this tell us? There was almost unanimous opposition from the Southern states. Northern Democrats were almost unanimously in favor of it. Party affiliation was less important than regional affiliation in determining the vote, but Democrats were more likely to vote in favor when region is controlled for.

Both parties have changed greatly over the years. Note that the longest serving Senator in history, Robert Byrd D-WV, was one of the Democrats who voted against it:

Byrd holds a wide variation of both liberal and conservative political views. A lifelong Democrat, Byrd did not leave the party as its views shifted from social conservatism to social liberalism, as his views on race changed over time as well.

Robert Byrd - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

As the New Deal began to liberalize Democrats as a whole, Southern Democrats largely stayed as conservative as they had always been, with some even breaking off to form farther right-wing splinters like the Dixiecrats. After the Civil Rights Movement successfully challenged the Jim Crow laws and other forms of institutionalized racism, and after the Democrats as a whole came to symbolize the mainstream left of the United States, the form, if not the content, of Southern Democratic politics began to change. At that point, most Southern Democrats defected to the Republican Party, and helped accelerate the latter's transformation into a more conservative organization.

Southern Democrats - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia America in White, Black, and Gray ... - Google Book Search

I should add a clarification, though:

Conservatives opposed to racial discrimination, however, had few obvious ways to act on that belief without abandoning their long, twilight struggle to re-confine the federal government within its historically defined riverbanks after the New Deal had demolished all the levees. Perlstein portrays Goldwater, a member of the NAACP who had fought against segregation in the Phoenix public schools while on the city council, as anguished by the choice between a moral and a constitutional imperative confronting him in the vote on the civil rights bill.
[...]
Thus, liberals dismiss "states' rights" as nothing more than a code word for racism. There is no point in conservatives even asking what the code word for states' rights is, because liberals cannot imagine anyone believes this to be a legitimate political concern.

From this viewpoint, conservatism's "reasons" for opposing civil rights were, in fact and from the beginning, excuses for oppressing blacks. Buckley's least judicious writings make it difficult to wave away that allegation. These are moments in conservatism's history where it was, in Goldberg's sense, worse than merely missing in action in the battle for racial equity.
[...]
Harsh as it is, this liberal accusation misses an important point: the hardest question the triumph of the civil rights movement raises about conservatism is not whether its stated purpose of restoring the founders' republic was a ruse designed to perpetuate racial inequality. Rather, it is to what extent that sincerely held belief was ever feasible and coherent. The troubling incongruity is not conservatives' initial tolerance of segregation for the sake of limited government, but the later, tacit admission that America did well to expand the purview of the federal government in order to end Jim Crow.

The Claremont Institute - Civil Rights and the Conservative Movement

I found that article very interesting. While it suggests that some conservatives were opposed to Civil Rights federal legislation on the grounds of State's rights, I don't think that would suffice as a comprehensive explanation. Some of the small government group overlapped with the cultural conservatives:

Conservatism is a political and social term whose meaning has changed in different countries and time periods, but which usually indicates support for the status quo or the status quo ante. Cultural conservatism is a philosophy that supports preservation of the heritage of a nation or culture.

Conservatism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

As I said, conservatism can mean support for the status quo or the past, and prior to the Civil Rights Movement this included treating African Americans and Women as lesser citizens, or non-citizens. Does this necessarily say anything about the conservatives of today in the contemporary sense? No. And I had already said that.

 

[Amanda]

I've known some liberals who were racists.

IMO, anyone in favor of affirmative action is racist. Whether you're holding one group down so another can thrive, or pushing another up so it doesn't have to be as good to compete, you're engaging in racist behavior. I've never understood how liberals manage to see one form of racism as good.

 

[Care4all]

Affirmative action or Reparations?

one or the other....to make up for what our forefather's wronged.

American Indians get reparations from us....and affirmative action.

 

[bthoma91]

Alright, I Don't Understand, What Is It That Conservatives Want?

Let me be brief and simple about this.

A federal government that does virtually nothing except maintain a massive standing military.

I used to think they believed the federal government should also enforce criminal laws and civil rights. But, I've seen too much cheerleading for torture, and for diminishing the fourth amendment and habeus corpus to buy that BS anymore.

What about state and local governments? Do you think they should take over all of the other duties normally held by the Fed? Such as Border Patrol, IRS, national regulations, etc.?

And you think the Fed shouldn't enforce the Constitution?

the Federal government should simply not be too big. if we as citizens let them grow into what obama and all liberals beleive it should grow too, then they federal government will become too powerful. this is not good, you see, the founding fathers wrote the constitution in a way so the fed couldnt grow too big becuase they feared it, and we should fear it. too much power to the fed could lead to so much worse.

 

[Freemason]

Conservatives want Americans to be the very best they can be, a strong America, limited government, a fair tax rate. We believe in the foundation and value of the Constitution. A judical branch that enforces the laws not make them.

 

[editec]

Today people who claim the mantle of conservatism surely appear to me to be more racist than the average American.

What the Republican Party did or did not do in the past has damned little to do with today's crop of self proclaiming conservatives.

 

[Amanda]

Today people who claim the mantle of conservatism surely appear to me to be more racist than the average American.

Please explain.

 

[Freemason]

Today people who claim the mantle of conservatism surely appear to me to be more racist than the average American.

What the Republican Party did or did not do in the past has damned little to do with today's crop of self proclaiming conservatives.

Do you have an example about your "racist" comment? Your second comment is surely open for serious debate.

 

[editec]

Today people who claim the mantle of conservatism surely appear to me to be more racist than the average American.

Please explain.

Read this board.

Or, for that matter, read the comments of people claiming to be conservative on pretty much every board in America.

Now I am not saying all conservatives are racist. In fact real conservatism isn't racist at all.

But what I am saying is there is a clear coorelation between people claiming to be conservative and a generally racist attitude.

If you happen to be a conservative, and you are not somewhat racist, then hey, maybe you ought to school your fellow conservatives whose racist attitudes are besmiching the good name of conservatism?

 

[Care4all]

Conservatives want Americans to be the very best they can be, a strong America, limited government, a fair tax rate. We believe in the foundation and value of the Constitution. A judical branch that enforces the laws not make them.

were there any Conservatives in congress the last 8 years? Who are these conservatives you describe and are any of them in our government representing the conservative public?

care

 

[Newby]

Today people who claim the mantle of conservatism surely appear to me to be more racist than the average American.

Please explain.

Read this board.

Or, for that matter, read the comments of people claiming to be conservative on pretty much every board in America.

Now I am not saying all conservatives are racist. In fact real conservatism isn't racist at all.

But what I am saying is there is a clear coorelation between people claiming to be conservative and a generally racist attitude.

If you happen to be a conservative, and you are not somewhat racist, then hey, maybe you ought to school your fellow conservatives whose racist attitudes are besmiching the good name of conservatism?

Maybe you shouldn't listen to left wing propraganda that all the little lemmings repeat over and over again and then pretend it's truth? Talk about stereotyping, just about everything the 'left' rails against, they do it in spades themselves and try to pretend it's somehow different.

 

[editec]

Please explain.

Read this board.

Or, for that matter, read the comments of people claiming to be conservative on pretty much every board in America.

Now I am not saying all conservatives are racist. In fact real conservatism isn't racist at all.

But what I am saying is there is a clear coorelation between people claiming to be conservative and a generally racist attitude.

If you happen to be a conservative, and you are not somewhat racist, then hey, maybe you ought to school your fellow conservatives whose racist attitudes are besmiching the good name of conservatism?

Maybe you shouldn't listen to left wing propraganda that all the little lemmings repeat over and over again and then pretend it's truth? Talk about stereotyping, just about everything the 'left' rails against, they do it in spades themselves and try to pretend it's somehow different.

I don't have to read left wing propaganda.

All I have to do is read the posts of people in places like these who CLAIM to be conservatives, Lad.

Their crypto-racist attitudes are apparent enough.

If that doesn't describe you, don't take offense.

Sadly for the conservtive movement, it describes a LOT of so called self proclaiming conservtives.

 

[Newby]

Simply your opinion, and you're welcome to it, but it doesn't make it accurate. And I'm anything but a 'lad', so another bad assumption on your part.

 

[johnrocks]

Hollering racism is so old hat, it is used against people merely for being opposed to such things as Affirmative Action, it reminds me of those who holler "anti Semitic" if someone even questions anything Israel does.

 

[editec]

Simply your opinion, and you're welcome to it, but it doesn't make it accurate. And I'm anything but a 'lad', so another bad assumption on your part.

Well, of course, that's my opinion.

 

[Amanda]

Today people who claim the mantle of conservatism surely appear to me to be more racist than the average American.

Please explain.

Read this board.

Or, for that matter, read the comments of people claiming to be conservative on pretty much every board in America.

Now I am not saying all conservatives are racist. In fact real conservatism isn't racist at all.

But what I am saying is there is a clear coorelation between people claiming to be conservative and a generally racist attitude.

If you happen to be a conservative, and you are not somewhat racist, then hey, maybe you ought to school your fellow conservatives whose racist attitudes are besmiching the good name of conservatism?

I'm not going to guess what your opinion is and then respond to that. If you want to do something other than make sweeping, vague generalizations then I'd like to follow up, but there's just nothing here to say in reply to what you wrote.

 

[Yukon]

All I have to do is read the posts of people in places like these who CLAIM to be conservatives, Lad.

Their crypto-racist attitudes are apparent enough.

I think racism and conservatism have always been synonymous. Liberalism on the other hand has always been associated with newness, change, forward thinking, visionary, etc.

 

[Meister]

All I have to do is read the posts of people in places like these who CLAIM to be conservatives, Lad.

Their crypto-racist attitudes are apparent enough.

I think racism and conservatism have always been synonymous. Liberalism on the other hand has always been associated with newness, change, forward thinking, visionary, etc.

 

[editec]

Please explain.

Read this board.

Or, for that matter, read the comments of people claiming to be conservative on pretty much every board in America.

Now I am not saying all conservatives are racist. In fact real conservatism isn't racist at all.

But what I am saying is there is a clear coorelation between people claiming to be conservative and a generally racist attitude.

If you happen to be a conservative, and you are not somewhat racist, then hey, maybe you ought to school your fellow conservatives whose racist attitudes are besmiching the good name of conservatism?

I'm not going to guess what your opinion is and then respond to that. If you want to do something other than make sweeping, vague generalizations then I'd like to follow up, but there's just nothing here to say in reply to what you wrote.

I didn't make a "sweeping generalization".

I parced my statement rather carefully to insure that I was NOT including all conservatives.

Perhaps you ought to go back and reread this exchange?