Afghan women rally, turning men red-faced with anger

[Tank]

When a chick farts in a Burka it can only escape threw the screen in front of her face.

Thats fucked up

 

[Sunni Man]

Most Muslim men have no problem granting their wives permission to seek hiigher education.

Especially if they live in a nation that is stable and not having civil unrest.

Many women in the mosque that I attend have Masters Degrees or PhD's


Mine already had an advanced degree when I met her.

But I would have allowed her to continue her education if she wanted to..

 

[logical4u]

Why would Westerners pay Afghan women to stir up trouble? the women in Afghanistan have been heavily repressed for decades, thats no secret.

S@#@$man has said that a woman "deserves" to be raped if she does not show the "proper respect for islam.

Please link to any post where I have said that.

Or just admit you are a blatant liar.

From your thread America is already a Shariah compliant state:

what Islam did to my country? Really you wanna know? Beofre Islam my country was 100 % Christian, they came and enofrce it on us, killed many of us, perscuted us, put us in jail, for reasons and for just being christians, burn down our churches, kidnapped our girls and force them to marry muslims (girls 14 and 15 years old, after blackmail them with fake or real sex pictures) force many of my family to leave the country after being raped becoz I was wearing a short sleeves t.shirt in Ramadan. is that enough or you wanna know what Islam brought to my former country?
#709 (permalink)

Quote: Originally Posted by Nahla
Quote: Originally Posted by Sunni Man
Now I can see why the Egyptian Muslims wanted to kick out and undesirable person like you.

You went around during Ramadan dressed half naked with your arms not covered.

Disrespecting them and your culture.

Seriously? You accusing me of what? a T.shirt and jeans and a cross in my nick, at 12 noon. There is NO law against wearing clothes, They DID NOT kick me out.. I chose not live with them.. if you think this is my fault you are just another F..ing mulsim hyprcrite, ass talking shit, terrorist like them.. why don't you go back and increase their honor ASS?
Sounds like you have an acid tongue and a filthy mouth full of cuss words.

No wonder they didn't like a rebellious and nasty talking woman like you.
#747 (permalink)


Sounds like "deserved" to me........

 

[Sunni Man]

Exactly where in that post did I say that a woman "deserves" to be raped ???

 

[Tank]

Exactly where in that did I say that a woman deserves to be raped ???

When you put a blanket over her head, you raped her freedom.

They can't even fart and walk away from it because it's stuck in the Burka.

 

[daveman]

What makes you think we're not?

But this thread is about oppression of women in an Islamic nation. Start another thread. If the subject makes you uncomfortable, stay out of this one.

Bullshit. I'm not going anywhere. I'm making a point. The point is you are more concerned with rape in Afghanistan than you are in the US.

You are picking a fight with Sunni because you hate all Muslims.

Why would we be CHEERING these muslim women for standing up, if we hated all muslims? Wouldn't we be promoting that religion of death, destruction and deceit if we hated all muslims? They will eventually wipe each other out if they continue, and we just left them alone. We are hoping they will boot the oppressive system that lies like a coiled snake in their "teachings".

Hey! No fair using logic!

 

[Sky Dancer]

You haven't listened to any of the women who claim they wear burqa and hajib for their own reasons.

Do you mean like the one in Kuwait that proclaim sexual slavery will keep muslim men "faithful"? Where is your concern for a muslim woman encouraging the sexual slavery of women of a different race SD?

Her problem is she hates Christians so much, that she will side with radical Muslims over them, even if the radical Muslims would cut her head off for being a Lesbian.

That's not true. I merely state that some women wear hajib and burqa for religious reasons. I think it's incredibly disrepectful to assume that ALL Muslim women are oppressed when they wear these garments.

I'm a feminist. I support women's choices. I don't think anyone should be forced to wear certain garments against their will. Neither do I support the government banning the wearing of hajib, burqa, turban, habit, or yamulka.

 

[Sky Dancer]

Yeah and?

You haven't listened to any of the women who claim they wear burqa and hajib for their own reasons.

Do you mean like the one in Kuwait that proclaim sexual slavery will keep muslim men "faithful"? Where is your concern for a muslim woman encouraging the sexual slavery of women of a different race SD?

You're talking about a different topic now. Sexual slavery in Kuwait. I don't support sexual slavery. Stop twisting my position.

I'm opposed to female circumcision, sexual slavery, and the oppression of women in any way.

 

[Sky Dancer]

Those women are going to say whatever they were brainwashed to say by their Imams.

Women in Europe want to wear the burqa and not be banned from doing so.

I'm all for supporting Afghan women to have equal rights and choices.

I'm a feminist, remember?

"Writers such as Leila Ahmed and Karen Armstrong have highlighted how the veil became a symbol of resistance to colonialism, particularly in Egypt in the latter part of the 19th century, and again today in the post-colonial period. In The Battle for God, Armstrong writes:

The veiled woman has, over the years, become a symbol of Islamic self-assertion and a rejection of Western cultural hegemony."

When have you defended Sarah Palin or Michelle Bachman (they are women and you are a femminist, remember) from the underhanded, cowardly attacks by the media and the left?

Now, the burka is a symbol of men's DOMINATION over women (and you are a femminist, remember).

I defend Sarah Palin and Michelle Bachmann from unfair criticism about their looks or personalities. I support them being criticised for their politics.

To the west, the burqa is a symbol of women's oppression. It may even be oppressive to non-Afghan Muslim women.

You cannot speak for ALL Muslim women, any more than I can. That's my point.

If you're not LDS, you may think that 'holy underwear' is ridiculous. It's their belief though. Just as there are some things worn by Buddhists because there are teachings on 'liberation by wearing".

I'm pointing out that we cannot ALWAYS assume the burqa is oppressive to women.

I don't like it, myself. I am very uncomfortable with it, but I do not think the government should ban the wearing of religious garments of any kind.

 

[alexa]

Well if you say you were there in the 70s I'll take your word for it, what I have read about Afghanistan in the 1970s was that the situation was way better for them at the time, they could go to school without being harassed or assaulted, they wouldn't be beheaded if they went outside without a burka, they could actually go to school and pursue a career. etc it is the polar opposite of what is going on now in Afghanistan, it is like they went from one end of the spectrum to another, it will take decades for Afghan women to regain what was lost during all these wars.

There is no question the situation was way better for them and this is before the Soviet invasion. I am sure they went to school like children anywhere. I am just saying that I never met an Afghan adult woman who was not in a burka. I have also read that they were supposed to have had this enormous emancipation but that doesn't fit in with what I saw.

I have no difficulty believing that girls were being educated and were able to join professions. I understand that Afghanistan was going through a strong process of liberalisation at the time. However when I was there most adult women were in Burkas.

I read an article which may be what you are talking about which spoke of this amazing sort of westernisation of Afghanistan. I am not sure that it does not come from rose tinted glasses because it does not go with what I saw and if there had been so much liberalisation of women in the 60's and 70's, RAWA would have had no reason to come into being.

As far as I am aware it was the speed of the push towards secular democracy including liberalisation of women that created in some of the tribes in for instance Kandahar region, the situation of unrest which allowed a window for the Soviets to come in.

Totally agree with you that Afghanistan was completely different to how it was after the Taliban had been ruling.

It was a country with decent proud people. As a young Western woman I walked the streets in western tops and suffered no problems at all. As I said it had mild Sharia law. No one was stoned, no one was getting their head chopped off, girls were not molested on the way to school, none of the things you suggested - just not as Westernised as you were suggesting which I suspect came from someone who probably was better off and did have those opportunities in Afghanistan and where I am sure Afghanistan could have gone if she had not been invaded, but where she had not yet got.

The situation that Afghan women suffer now is imo a direct result of the US Afghan Soviet war and the financing of fanatical Arabs who were allowed out of Arab jails to fight in Afghanistan instead of democratic Afghan warriors and the turning of a blind eye to a) the murder of Afghan's who would not listen to their foul ideas and b) to the fanatical salafi education given to Afghan refugees.

if the Russians never invaded Afghan, if we and the Saudis didn't fund guys like Bin Laden to go in there, who knows how Afghanistan would be right now? when you look at the pictures of Afghanistan in the 1970s and look at it now, it looks like 2 different galaxies, its actually fascinating in a sad way to see how many steps backwards man can take when devestation occurs.

Hi Gravity, I think I may owe you an apology. I have found this. For the years 73-78

Similar to King Amanullah, Mohammad Daoud Khan encouraged the abandonment of the veil by Afghan women. During these years, women gradually enjoyed much more personal freedoms and rights. However, most of these advances were limited to women living in Kabul and other major cities.* Most of the rural areas still remained backwards and women continued to be oppressed, and treated as property rather than human beings with equal rights.

Afghanistan Online: Afghan Women's History

but the thing is I was in Kabul in 74/75 and I was only aware of seeing women in Burka's. The place was full of them so they were not in their houses. We quite simply were not aware that there were any Afghan women who did not wear them, apart from some we were told about who apparently appeared for one week once a year. It is quite possible there were a few and I did not recognise them but in 74/5 there could not have been a significant number. However having found this it is quite possible that in the years that followed my visit the no without burkas grew. Anyway the link shows that Afghanistan had times when women had greater and lesser freedoms.

I think the problems there come from several issues. One is it is very tribal and has had problems looking for unity. This again is partly because of us Brits. The tribe near the Pakistan border for instance actually goes right over the border. When we were cutting things up we should, again, have had respect for the indigenous population which is part of the reason Pakistan has been having so many problems.

The problem as far as the situation of women is concerned according to the article I will give a link to later seems to come from tribal political ideas prior to Islam which are very patriarchal and have women in the subordinate position like chattel. The difficulty in the past hundred or so Afghanistan seems to have had is on the one side the cities wanting to 'modernise' and give women liberty and on the other the tribes in the villages wanting to keep them subordinate.

In addition there seems to have been a series of liberalising too swift followed by tribal backlash which appears also to have happened again in the 70's.

Up until the Soviet/Afghan/US war it appears to have been a pull by poor uneducated tribal people in the backwaters wanting to keep their ancient tribal systems with women subordinate rather than caused by Islam and those better educated in the cities (not sure about Kandahar) wanting women to be free of the veil and a part of a secular society, while still accepting Islam.

And then of course along with the war came Fundamental Islam which as the article states is Political Islam

women who accept .fundamentalism. as a way of life do not blame Islam for their impoverished and oppressed lives, but blame the corrupt government, patriarchal controls, and distorted interpretations of the Quran. At this point I do want to make a distinction between fundamentalism and Islam as a religious construct. To put it simply, the former is a political movement and the latter an individual and social belief system. Underlying their responses is a sense that the secular West wants to destroy Islam. Women in Afghanistan hate the Afghan fundamentalists, not Islam.

http://www.bridgew.edu/soas/jiws/May03/Afghanistan.pdf

And that is a monster topic.

I agree with you 100% on the last part, the influx of Islamic Militants into the country during the 1980s for the Jihad against the Soviets and the formation of the Taliban in the 1990s SCREWED that country

The other point I mentioned earlier was that I believe after 9/11 the US made a mistake in not following the advice of Abdul Haq. He had been an Afghan Warrior and had taken the time to learn English so that he could go to the US and tell them about the psyche of the Arabs and plead with them to stop funding them – alas to no avail. He had for a short time been part of a government after the soviets left but for some reason left Afghanistan. He was really important because he was known in Afghanistan as a man who was beyond corruption. Further he had the trust of all the different tribes. Now another thing we should remember is that Afghans will be pragmatic for survival. Some will become Taliban if need be and stop being Taliban either if need be or if they can. As it happened and not surprisingly the Afghans were well fed up with the Taliban long before 9/11.

After 9/11 several people from different areas contacted Abdul Haq and said just give us the nod and the wink and we will move on the Taliban. He asked the States not to move in. He said he believed it would be possible to remove the Taliban mainly through psychological means and that if the US came in bombing and killing lots of civilians the likely response was that it would actually increase support for the Taliban which was very weak. He asked for a chance to do this before the US made a move. The US refused.

Now he was the person who was expected to be the Afghan leader. The US should have done everything to protect him as he was an incorruptible man who wanted a secular democratic government and had the support of all the different tribes. However when he was being cornered by the Taliban and called to the US for help, no help came. The Taliban executed him.

Both those things I believe were a mistake. Clearly if he had managed to almost peacefully do a coup, thousands of lives would have been spared including US lifes. Secondly there was no one else of his integrity and who had the ability to bring the tribes together. He would however have been no one's puppet and it has been suggested it was for that reason he was left to die.

BBC - BBC Four Documentaries - Afghan Warrior

 

[logical4u]

You haven't listened to any of the women who claim they wear burqa and hajib for their own reasons.

Do you mean like the one in Kuwait that proclaim sexual slavery will keep muslim men "faithful"? Where is your concern for a muslim woman encouraging the sexual slavery of women of a different race SD?

You're talking about a different topic now. Sexual slavery in Kuwait. I don't support sexual slavery. Stop twisting my position.

I'm opposed to female circumcision, sexual slavery, and the oppression of women in any way.

Yeah, I have heard that from you before. You talk out of both sides of your mouth. One side says you don't agree with that, the other side proclaims the religion that promotes it as "equal" with all other forms of "religion".

NO ONE here is hoping all muslims fall down and die. We are uplifted to see women that are living under terrible oppression stand against the "thugs" that make up the majority (that would not be ALL) of men walking the streets (and yes I meant to say that). It gives us hope that the human spirit will overcome that barbaric system embedded in islam, and those women of islam can walk out into the light of liberty.

 

[logical4u]

Women in Europe want to wear the burqa and not be banned from doing so.

I'm all for supporting Afghan women to have equal rights and choices.

I'm a feminist, remember?

"Writers such as Leila Ahmed and Karen Armstrong have highlighted how the veil became a symbol of resistance to colonialism, particularly in Egypt in the latter part of the 19th century, and again today in the post-colonial period. In The Battle for God, Armstrong writes:

The veiled woman has, over the years, become a symbol of Islamic self-assertion and a rejection of Western cultural hegemony."

When have you defended Sarah Palin or Michelle Bachman (they are women and you are a femminist, remember) from the underhanded, cowardly attacks by the media and the left?

Now, the burka is a symbol of men's DOMINATION over women (and you are a femminist, remember).

I defend Sarah Palin and Michelle Bachmann from unfair criticism about their looks or personalities. I support them being criticised for their politics.

To the west, the burqa is a symbol of women's oppression. It may even be oppressive to non-Afghan Muslim women.

You cannot speak for ALL Muslim women, any more than I can. That's my point.

If you're not LDS, you may think that 'holy underwear' is ridiculous. It's their belief though. Just as there are some things worn by Buddhists because there are teachings on 'liberation by wearing".

I'm pointing out that we cannot ALWAYS assume the burqa is oppressive to women.

I don't like it, myself. I am very uncomfortable with it, but I do not think the government should ban the wearing of religious garments of any kind.

So will you list all those women (or men) that are beaten or murdered for not wearing "holy underwear" or Buddihist clothing????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

In the world today, a world that has been attacked by "radical muslims", the burka has been used to disguise men (cowards) to escape justice, to perpetuate crimes, to terrorize most of the countries on four continents. That is the doing of "muslims". If the government wants to "protect" the population, burkas make their job impossible. It is muslims that are attacking the rest of the world. It is muslims that are walking into peaceful community gatherings and murdering everyone they can while chanting to Allah like some Satanic ritual. It is not women wearing western garb. The burka gives terrorist freedom to move thru society undetected in the "name of" religious freedom. If muslims were more honest, no one would object to women "choosing" to wear burkas. The reality is: too many muslims are deceitful when it comes to terrorist activity. They either don't say anything out of fear for themselves and loved ones or because they really support terror, and lie to the west, when they say they don't. Burkas make terrorists' lives easier. It makes those that would protect us work harder and at greater costs. It is about the safety. It is for the "children".

 

[Dr.Drock]

S@#@$man has said that a woman "deserves" to be raped if she does not show the "proper respect for islam. He can see nothing wrong with treating over half the population as less than animals.

He is lower than the insects that eat pig droppings.

I have a feeling he only talks like this on the interent, there's no way an american woman would put up with being talked down to the way he talks down about women on here.

He's married, and I've been told his wife is educated, if you listened to him on here you'd get the jist that he wants all women dumb and uneducated.

So I'm getting the vibes it's all a message board shtick.

I know that it is hard for the western mind to understand this.

But in Islam the genders are separate but equal before God.

A man has a specific role as a husband and leader of the household.

And a woman has a different role as the wife and mother.

These roles are clearly laid out in the religion.

And this is what makes the dynamics of a Muslim marriage work to the advantage of both partners.

And why Muslim marriages are more successful than western marriages in the long-term.

We have a different idea of successful.

If a man in a marriage can be patted on the back and given a thumbs up for sleeping around with his other 20 wives and the wife would be put to death for being friends with a man, then being raped by him, that's not successful to me.

But I'm gonna need clearance on something, do you really think all humans who have had sex without being married should be put to death?

 

[Sunni Man]

Muslims are only allowed 4 wives maximum.

We are not concerned about non-Muslims sleeping around.

In fact, it is expected decadent behavior of them.

 

[High_Gravity]

There is no question the situation was way better for them and this is before the Soviet invasion. I am sure they went to school like children anywhere. I am just saying that I never met an Afghan adult woman who was not in a burka. I have also read that they were supposed to have had this enormous emancipation but that doesn't fit in with what I saw.

I have no difficulty believing that girls were being educated and were able to join professions. I understand that Afghanistan was going through a strong process of liberalisation at the time. However when I was there most adult women were in Burkas.

I read an article which may be what you are talking about which spoke of this amazing sort of westernisation of Afghanistan. I am not sure that it does not come from rose tinted glasses because it does not go with what I saw and if there had been so much liberalisation of women in the 60's and 70's, RAWA would have had no reason to come into being.

As far as I am aware it was the speed of the push towards secular democracy including liberalisation of women that created in some of the tribes in for instance Kandahar region, the situation of unrest which allowed a window for the Soviets to come in.

Totally agree with you that Afghanistan was completely different to how it was after the Taliban had been ruling.

It was a country with decent proud people. As a young Western woman I walked the streets in western tops and suffered no problems at all. As I said it had mild Sharia law. No one was stoned, no one was getting their head chopped off, girls were not molested on the way to school, none of the things you suggested - just not as Westernised as you were suggesting which I suspect came from someone who probably was better off and did have those opportunities in Afghanistan and where I am sure Afghanistan could have gone if she had not been invaded, but where she had not yet got.

The situation that Afghan women suffer now is imo a direct result of the US Afghan Soviet war and the financing of fanatical Arabs who were allowed out of Arab jails to fight in Afghanistan instead of democratic Afghan warriors and the turning of a blind eye to a) the murder of Afghan's who would not listen to their foul ideas and b) to the fanatical salafi education given to Afghan refugees.

Hi Gravity, I think I may owe you an apology. I have found this. For the years 73-78



Afghanistan Online: Afghan Women's History

but the thing is I was in Kabul in 74/75 and I was only aware of seeing women in Burka's. The place was full of them so they were not in their houses. We quite simply were not aware that there were any Afghan women who did not wear them, apart from some we were told about who apparently appeared for one week once a year. It is quite possible there were a few and I did not recognise them but in 74/5 there could not have been a significant number. However having found this it is quite possible that in the years that followed my visit the no without burkas grew. Anyway the link shows that Afghanistan had times when women had greater and lesser freedoms.

I think the problems there come from several issues. One is it is very tribal and has had problems looking for unity. This again is partly because of us Brits. The tribe near the Pakistan border for instance actually goes right over the border. When we were cutting things up we should, again, have had respect for the indigenous population which is part of the reason Pakistan has been having so many problems.

The problem as far as the situation of women is concerned according to the article I will give a link to later seems to come from tribal political ideas prior to Islam which are very patriarchal and have women in the subordinate position like chattel. The difficulty in the past hundred or so Afghanistan seems to have had is on the one side the cities wanting to 'modernise' and give women liberty and on the other the tribes in the villages wanting to keep them subordinate.

In addition there seems to have been a series of liberalising too swift followed by tribal backlash which appears also to have happened again in the 70's.

Up until the Soviet/Afghan/US war it appears to have been a pull by poor uneducated tribal people in the backwaters wanting to keep their ancient tribal systems with women subordinate rather than caused by Islam and those better educated in the cities (not sure about Kandahar) wanting women to be free of the veil and a part of a secular society, while still accepting Islam.

And then of course along with the war came Fundamental Islam which as the article states is Political Islam




http://www.bridgew.edu/soas/jiws/May03/Afghanistan.pdf

And that is a monster topic.

I agree with you 100% on the last part, the influx of Islamic Militants into the country during the 1980s for the Jihad against the Soviets and the formation of the Taliban in the 1990s SCREWED that country

The other point I mentioned earlier was that I believe after 9/11 the US made a mistake in not following the advice of Abdul Haq. He had been an Afghan Warrior and had taken the time to learn English so that he could go to the US and tell them about the psyche of the Arabs and plead with them to stop funding them – alas to no avail. He had for a short time been part of a government after the soviets left but for some reason left Afghanistan. He was really important because he was known in Afghanistan as a man who was beyond corruption. Further he had the trust of all the different tribes. Now another thing we should remember is that Afghans will be pragmatic for survival. Some will become Taliban if need be and stop being Taliban either if need be or if they can. As it happened and not surprisingly the Afghans were well fed up with the Taliban long before 9/11.

After 9/11 several people from different areas contacted Abdul Haq and said just give us the nod and the wink and we will move on the Taliban. He asked the States not to move in. He said he believed it would be possible to remove the Taliban mainly through psychological means and that if the US came in bombing and killing lots of civilians the likely response was that it would actually increase support for the Taliban which was very weak. He asked for a chance to do this before the US made a move. The US refused.

Now he was the person who was expected to be the Afghan leader. The US should have done everything to protect him as he was an incorruptible man who wanted a secular democratic government and had the support of all the different tribes. However when he was being cornered by the Taliban and called to the US for help, no help came. The Taliban executed him.

Both those things I believe were a mistake. Clearly if he had managed to almost peacefully do a coup, thousands of lives would have been spared including US lifes. Secondly there was no one else of his integrity and who had the ability to bring the tribes together. He would however have been no one's puppet and it has been suggested it was for that reason he was left to die.

BBC - BBC Four Documentaries - Afghan Warrior

So basically it sounds like Afghanistan was on the right path towards modernization right up until the Soviet invasion, when Militants from other Islamic countries flooded Afghanistan and everything went to hell. There is no doubt the US made mistakes in Afghanistan, looking bad at the mood at the time the people here wanted action, we pretty much had to go into Afghanistan because that is where the 9/11 hijackers trained and planned their attacks, I do believe the war was undersourced, underfunded and undermanned for many years, especially after 2003 when we invaded Iraq and diverted so many resources there. I definently agree that the Soviet/US wars in the country as well as the civil war with the Taliban and Northern Alliance set back Afghan society by many decades, especially when it comes to the women.

 

[Dr.Drock]

Muslims are only allowed 4 wives maximum.

We are not concerned about non-Muslims sleeping around.

In fact, it is expected decadent behavior of them.

But muslims who have sex before marriage, should be killed?

If a muslim man has more than 4 wives, should he be killed?

 

[Sunni Man]

What is your deal with everyone should be killed??

 

[Dr.Drock]

What is your deal with everyone should be killed??

My deal?

You're the one saying you want to participate in a stoning, you're the one saying people should be killed for who they have sex with. I'd never stoop to those kind of things.


What if today you learned your wife had sex before she met you, would you approve of and participate in stoning her to death?

 

[Sunni Man]

Muslims in America abide by American laws.

 

[Dr.Drock]

Muslims in America abide by American laws.

Typical Sunni Man non-answer, any rational person would just instantly answer "No of course not, my wife is the love of my life."


They wouldn't make killing their wife dependent on the man thought out laws of whatever government was ruling the piece of land they're on top of.