ACLU finally wakes up?

[Wake]

It is when that expression takes place on public(government) land, government sanction of religion is prohibited and displays of religious nature on public property is advocating religion.

Would this include praying in a public school, or any other government establishment?

 

[noose4]

The core tenet of any religion is the identification of a supreme being or intelligence in the universe. Atheists believe human beings fit this description. Protest all you want but, if this is not the case, please specify a being superior to humans that Atheists believe in.

I'm waiting...

Atheism is simply the lack of belief in a higher power regardless of your made up definition of what it is, and if they believed human beings fit the description of supreme beings then how would they explain how so many human beings can believe in such supernatural silliness?

That is agnosticism, atheism is the belief that there is no god. It is an active belief, not a lack thereof.

Atheism | Define Atheism at Dictionary.com

Atheism - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary

Lack of a belief in God is what it is, your definition is just different ways of saying that, the idea that Atheism is a religion is beyond absurd. Agnosticism is the doubt of there being a God but not being sure of such.

 

[noose4]

It is when that expression takes place on public(government) land, government sanction of religion is prohibited and displays of religious nature on public property is advocating religion.

Would this include praying in a public school, or any other government establishment?

Organized prayer by government officials like teachers would be included in that, individuals can pray whenever they want.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Atheism is not a religion, and separation of Church and state means government can not endorse religion which it does when putting up religious displays during religious holidays.

I'm sorry, but you're gonna have to show me that amendment.

All I can manage to remember is "Congress shall make NO LAW regarding the Establishment of Religion OR the Free Exercise Thereof"




To the point of the OP?
I'm with Whitehall on this one.
There's been some very questionable things that the ACLU has stuck their nose into but, as much as it pains me to do so, I find myself rooting for their success in this case.

If you value your ow Constitution, you root for them on every case.

Believe me, there have been many times when I hated having to root for them but if I root for my own Constitution, I have no choice.

They have never been on the wrong side in their entire history? Not once?

Did you know they filed a brief urging the Supreme Court to strike down McCain-Feingold in Citizen's United v FEC, which I am pretty sure you think was completely wrong.

Did you know they actually support the individual right to bear arms, something you have repeatedly argued is not guaranteed by the Constitution?

Does this mean you will change your position on these issue since they are always in favor of the Constitution, and so are you, or does it mean you said something that you wish you had never said?

 

[Wake]

It is when that expression takes place on public(government) land, government sanction of religion is prohibited and displays of religious nature on public property is advocating religion.

Would this include praying in a public school, or any other government establishment?

Organized prayer by government officials like teachers would be included in that, individuals can pray whenever they want.

That sounds reasonable. Would any public servant (say a woman) be allowed to wear something like a religious symbol around her neck or wrist, etc?

 

[Quantum Windbag]

ACLU has always represented and defended what the Constitution stands for, those who see the ACLU as any thing else are on the opposite side of the Constitution regarding an issue it is defending.

I am willing to bet that I can find a lawsuit the ACLU filed that you would say was wrong, does that make you against the constitution, or does it just mean you said something really stupid?

If the ACLU was involved it was involved on the side of the Constitution but I will accept your challenge

Does that mean you support the 2nd Amendment right for individuals to bear arms, and are happy that SCOTUS ruled that corporations can spend unlimited amounts of money to steal elections?

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Atheism is simply the lack of belief in a higher power regardless of your made up definition of what it is, and if they believed human beings fit the description of supreme beings then how would they explain how so many human beings can believe in such supernatural silliness?

That is agnosticism, atheism is the belief that there is no god. It is an active belief, not a lack thereof.

Atheism | Define Atheism at Dictionary.com

Atheism - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary

Lack of a belief in God is what it is, your definition is just different ways of saying that, the idea that Atheism is a religion is beyond absurd. Agnosticism is the doubt of there being a God but not being sure of such.

That is not my definition, it is the definition, and what you are saying something entirely different. You really should study English if you want to talk about parsing it.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

It is when that expression takes place on public(government) land, government sanction of religion is prohibited and displays of religious nature on public property is advocating religion.

Would this include praying in a public school, or any other government establishment?

Organized prayer by government officials like teachers would be included in that, individuals can pray whenever they want.

Are you trying to tell me that government officials. like teachers, are not individuals?

 

[whitehall]

The modern version of the separation/church/state is not part of the Bill of Rights. It's a supreme court decision and the justice who wrote the majority opinion was a former Catholic hating KKK member. The point is that the ACLU spent countless dollars protecting Americans from the potential threat of a freaking kid carrying a Bible or wearing a Crucifix or the local Fire Dept. erecting a Christmas display on public property while the Country has been threatened by real violations of the Bill of Rights.

 

[noose4]

I am willing to bet that I can find a lawsuit the ACLU filed that you would say was wrong, does that make you against the constitution, or does it just mean you said something really stupid?

If the ACLU was involved it was involved on the side of the Constitution but I will accept your challenge

Does that mean you support the 2nd Amendment right for individuals to bear arms, and are happy that SCOTUS ruled that corporations can spend unlimited amounts of money to steal elections?

Second amendment includes the words "well regulated" So gun laws are not the same as not being allowed to have any guns at all, and the constitutionality of big corporations buying elections is still up for argument.

 

[noose4]

That is agnosticism, atheism is the belief that there is no god. It is an active belief, not a lack thereof.

Atheism | Define Atheism at Dictionary.com

Atheism - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary

Lack of a belief in God is what it is, your definition is just different ways of saying that, the idea that Atheism is a religion is beyond absurd. Agnosticism is the doubt of there being a God but not being sure of such.

That is not my definition, it is the definition, and what you are saying something entirely different. You really should study English if you want to talk about parsing it.

No you should read your own links:

2.
disbelief in the existence of a supreme being or beings.

 

[noose4]

Would this include praying in a public school, or any other government establishment?

Organized prayer by government officials like teachers would be included in that, individuals can pray whenever they want.

Are you trying to tell me that government officials. like teachers, are not individuals?

When a teacher is in front of a class room dealing with the class the teacher is a government official and thus if said teacher led a prayer at the school it would be government advocating religion.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

If the ACLU was involved it was involved on the side of the Constitution but I will accept your challenge

Does that mean you support the 2nd Amendment right for individuals to bear arms, and are happy that SCOTUS ruled that corporations can spend unlimited amounts of money to steal elections?

Second amendment includes the words "well regulated" So gun laws are not the same as not being allowed to have any guns at all, and the constitutionality of big corporations buying elections is still up for argument.

Not according the ACLU, that means you are against the constitution.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Lack of a belief in God is what it is, your definition is just different ways of saying that, the idea that Atheism is a religion is beyond absurd. Agnosticism is the doubt of there being a God but not being sure of such.

That is not my definition, it is the definition, and what you are saying something entirely different. You really should study English if you want to talk about parsing it.

No you should read your own links:

2.
disbelief in the existence of a supreme being or beings.

Like I said, you should study English.

: the act of disbelieving : mental rejection of something as untrue

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Organized prayer by government officials like teachers would be included in that, individuals can pray whenever they want.

Are you trying to tell me that government officials. like teachers, are not individuals?

When a teacher is in front of a class room dealing with the class the teacher is a government official and thus if said teacher led a prayer at the school it would be government advocating religion.

It would? Are you sure about that?

Teacher to students: ?We are not dying today? - Video on NBCNews.com

 

[TemplarKormac]

Hey, I applaud the ACLU on this one. But that doesn't necessarily mean that they "have woken up". They have taken an anti-religious tone in the past decade or so.

How so?

Link?

May 19, 2011

The ACLU has a long history of providing token defense to Christians in carefully selected cases in order to advance its radical agenda. ACLU founder Roger Baldwin laid out this strategy in 1934 when he said, “If I aid the reactionaries {i.e. Christians and conservatives} to get free speech now and then, if I go outside the class struggle to fight against censorship, it is only because those liberties help to create a more hospitable atmosphere for working class liberties.”

The bottom line: The ACLU generally only defends Christians when it serves their greater agenda, and often the cases they take on are “easy” ones that will not set any lasting legal precedent that will benefit Christians. However, there are numerous examples where the ACLU has been on the forefront of silencing, or attempting to silence, Christians.

In 2006, Jeremy Gunn, the ACLU’s “Director of Religion and Belief,” said that military chaplains who share their faith with soldiers, “should find another career.”

In 2003, the ACLU of Iowa tried to intimidate the small Iowa town of Tipton, to stop its yearly tradition of a nativity scene on a courthouse lawn. In the letter, the ACLU “kindly” agreed to assist the city on how it could “choose a constitutionally appropriate way to celebrate the Solstice Season.”

The ACLU has waged a systematic “war on the cross”, demanding that cross memorials to fallen military veterans -- such as Mt. Soledad in San Diego and the Mojave Desert Cross -- be taken down.

The ACLU has time and time again filed lawsuits against Christians who are simply trying to live out their faith:

In New Jersey, the ACLU is backing same-sex couples in a civil rights complaint against the Ocean Grove Camp Meeting Association of the United Methodist Church -- in order to force the ministry to open up its worship pavilion for same-sex “civil union” ceremonies in direct opposition to the association’s stated beliefs.

In Kentucky, the ACLU took on a Baptist adoption ministry that works with the commonwealth to place children in loving two-parent homes, and backed a former ministry employee who had "come out” as a lesbian. The Baptist ministry's offense? Requiring its employees to adhere to Baptist beliefs regarding human sexuality. In its lawsuit, which has been unsuccessful thus far, the ACLU has tried to force the adoption ministry to either compromise its core beliefs or lose the funding it has received from the government to assist with adoptions.

It was the ACLU, in a friend-of-the-court Supreme Court brief filed in Everson v. Board of Education (1947) that came up with the distortion that the words “separation of church and state” appear in the U.S. Constitution. (They don’t.) Associate Justice Hugo Black picked up that phrase in the minority opinion, and the ACLU was off and running ever since, to use what the U.S. Court of Appeals for the 6th Circuit has called a “non-Constitutional construct” to engage in a war of fear, intimidation, and disinformation meant to bully public officials into silencing any religious expression in the public square – and in particular Christian religious expression. As a result, the ACLU participated in case after case at the United States Supreme Court that eventually outlawed school prayer, moments of silence, and eventually non-sectarian prayers by ministers and rabbis before public high school graduation ceremonies.

When school officials in Louisiana allowed a prayer before an awards banquet, the then-head of the ACLU of Louisiana compared praying Christians to Islamic terrorists, and demanded they be put in jail so they could be “removed from society.”

With regard to peaceful pro-life advocates at abortion clinics, the ACLU has not only attempted to strip them of the constitutionally-protected right to free speech, but some ACLU members have advocated using RICO (Racketeer Influenced and Corrupt Organizations) laws – which were intended to financially cripple organized crime by tripling court awards – to bankrupt those who simply want exercise their freedom of speech and freedom of religion.

The ACLU’s assaults on Christianity in the public square go on and on, and are too countless to post in a forum such as this. One thing does become clear: The ACLU is the number one religious censor in America today.

Little Catholic Bubble: Christians: The ACLU is not your friend

 

[noose4]

Does that mean you support the 2nd Amendment right for individuals to bear arms, and are happy that SCOTUS ruled that corporations can spend unlimited amounts of money to steal elections?

Second amendment includes the words "well regulated" So gun laws are not the same as not being allowed to have any guns at all, and the constitutionality of big corporations buying elections is still up for argument.

Not according the ACLU, that means you are against the constitution.

Where has the ACLU come out regarding banning all gun ownership?

 

[noose4]

Are you trying to tell me that government officials. like teachers, are not individuals?

When a teacher is in front of a class room dealing with the class the teacher is a government official and thus if said teacher led a prayer at the school it would be government advocating religion.

It would? Are you sure about that?

Teacher to students: ?We are not dying today? - Video on NBCNews.com

People cling to superstition in crisis and the middle of a tornado is not exactly a class room teaching situation, and she admitted she did wrong by going to her superstition in such a circumstance.

 

[Sactowndog]

ACLU has always represented and defended what the Constitution stands for, those who see the ACLU as any thing else are on the opposite side of the Constitution regarding an issue it is defending.

That is the core of what they stand for but the ALCU has, on many occasions, gone off the reservation. There are many examples of the ACLU doing the exact opposite of what they stand for. Unfortunately, when the ALCU represents someone that is making an unreasonable demand on others or takes a position that can be seen as against your rights it is widely reported and remembered for a long time. In the majority of the cases where they hold true to their core values the news is not really interested (as stories about things happening as they should are not very good for ratings) and the ones that are the public has the unfortunate habit of forgetting rather quickly.

Meh, take it for what it’s worth. Some people are not going to like the ALCU for those widely known cases, not for the successes that they should have and did make.

Some would like to impose their religion on the general populace others would prefer to disarm the populace. Both sides hate the ACLU when it suits them.

 

[whitehall]

ACLU has always represented and defended what the Constitution stands for, those who see the ACLU as any thing else are on the opposite side of the Constitution regarding an issue it is defending.

That is the core of what they stand for but the ALCU has, on many occasions, gone off the reservation. There are many examples of the ACLU doing the exact opposite of what they stand for. Unfortunately, when the ALCU represents someone that is making an unreasonable demand on others or takes a position that can be seen as against your rights it is widely reported and remembered for a long time. In the majority of the cases where they hold true to their core values the news is not really interested (as stories about things happening as they should are not very good for ratings) and the ones that are the public has the unfortunate habit of forgetting rather quickly.

Meh, take it for what it’s worth. Some people are not going to like the ALCU for those widely known cases, not for the successes that they should have and did make.

Some would like to impose their religion on the general populace others would prefer to disarm the populace. Both sides hate the ACLU when it suits them.

Some would like to express the freedom of religion that the 1st Amendment used to guarantee. How does a moment of prayer in schools rise to the danger level of "civil liberties"? You can count on the ACLU's incredible budget to bankrupt any town or village that dares challenge the modern version of separation/church/state that the ACLU has so vigilantly defended for several decades. Where was the ACLU when the Clinton administration incinerated 80 men, women and children in a botched raid in Waco Texas? Where was the ACLU when a deputy attorney general drafted a freaking law that prevented the FBI and the CIA from sharing information under threat of arrest? They were probably busy pressuring some poor volunteer Fire Company that wanted to place a Manger scene on public property.