ACLU finally wakes up?

[hortysir]

That is the core of what they stand for but the ALCU has, on many occasions, gone off the reservation. There are many examples of the ACLU doing the exact opposite of what they stand for. Unfortunately, when the ALCU represents someone that is making an unreasonable demand on others or takes a position that can be seen as against your rights it is widely reported and remembered for a long time. In the majority of the cases where they hold true to their core values the news is not really interested (as stories about things happening as they should are not very good for ratings) and the ones that are the public has the unfortunate habit of forgetting rather quickly.

Meh, take it for what it’s worth. Some people are not going to like the ALCU for those widely known cases, not for the successes that they should have and did make.

Some would like to impose their religion on the general populace others would prefer to disarm the populace. Both sides hate the ACLU when it suits them.

Some would like to express the freedom of religion that the 1st Amendment used to guarantee. How does a moment of prayer in schools rise to the danger level of "civil liberties"? You can count on the ACLU's incredible budget to bankrupt any town or village that dares challenge the modern version of separation/church/state that the ACLU has so vigilantly defended for several decades. Where was the ACLU when the Clinton administration incinerated 80 men, women and children in a botched raid in Waco Texas? Where was the ACLU when a deputy attorney general drafted a freaking law that prevented the FBI and the CIA from sharing information under threat of arrest? They were probably busy pressuring some poor volunteer Fire Company that wanted to place a Manger scene on public property.

From their own website:

With more than 500,000 members, nearly 200 staff attorneys, thousands of volunteer attorneys and offices throughout the nation



How can anyone fight something that big?

 

[whitehall]

Some would like to impose their religion on the general populace others would prefer to disarm the populace. Both sides hate the ACLU when it suits them.

Some would like to express the freedom of religion that the 1st Amendment used to guarantee. How does a moment of prayer in schools rise to the danger level of "civil liberties"? You can count on the ACLU's incredible budget to bankrupt any town or village that dares challenge the modern version of separation/church/state that the ACLU has so vigilantly defended for several decades. Where was the ACLU when the Clinton administration incinerated 80 men, women and children in a botched raid in Waco Texas? Where was the ACLU when a deputy attorney general drafted a freaking law that prevented the FBI and the CIA from sharing information under threat of arrest? They were probably busy pressuring some poor volunteer Fire Company that wanted to place a Manger scene on public property.

From their own website:

With more than 500,000 members, nearly 200 staff attorneys, thousands of volunteer attorneys and offices throughout the nation



How can anyone fight something that big?

Annual budget of 100 million and tax exempt. A potent mix sure to win every case against the (non tax exempt) rubes who dare challenge them in court. The stated mission is Litigation, lobbying and something they call "community education". Lefties hate lobbyists but in this case they make an exception.

 

[jwoodie]

Atheism is simply the lack of belief in a higher power regardless of your made up definition of what it is, and if they believed human beings fit the description of supreme beings then how would they explain how so many human beings can believe in such supernatural silliness?

That is agnosticism, atheism is the belief that there is no god. It is an active belief, not a lack thereof.

Atheism | Define Atheism at Dictionary.com

Atheism - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary

Lack of a belief in God is what it is, your definition is just different ways of saying that, the idea that Atheism is a religion is beyond absurd. Agnosticism is the doubt of there being a God but not being sure of such.

Not-so-clever distinction without a difference. Atheists believe Man (possibly BHO) is the supreme intelligence in the universe (if not, please specify who/what is), but claim exemption from the same restrictions they would place on all other belief systems. How noble of them.

 

[The2ndAmendment]

Second amendment includes the words "well regulated" So gun laws are not the same as not being allowed to have any guns at all, and the constitutionality of big corporations buying elections is still up for argument.

Noose, do you know what "well regulated" means?

 

[whitehall]

I don't see anything about the 1st Amendment religious freedom that needs to be "well regulated". God help a kid who brings a Bible to school or a fire Dept that wants to keep a 100 year tradition going on public property when the 100 Million dollar funded tax exempt ACLU is on the job to make the Country safe for the strange version of "separation of church and state" as written by a former KKK member.

 

[The2ndAmendment]

I don't see anything about the 1st Amendment religious freedom that needs to be "well regulated". God help a kid who brings a Bible to school or a fire Dept that wants to keep a 100 year tradition going on public property when the 100 Million dollar funded tax exempt ACLU is on the job to make the Country safe for the strange version of "separation of church and state" as written by a former KKK member.

You both have no idea what "well regulated" means.

 

[The2ndAmendment]

This is the definition of well-regulated, that was even upheld by the Supreme Court:

The term "regulated" means "disciplined" or "trained".[143] In Heller, the U.S. Supreme Court stated that "[t]he adjective 'well-regulated' implies nothing more than the imposition of proper discipline and training."[144]

In the year prior to the drafting of the Second Amendment, in Federalist No. 29 Alexander Hamilton wrote the following about "organizing", "disciplining", "arming", and "training" of the militia as specified in the enumerated powers:

This desirable uniformity can only be accomplished by confiding the regulation of the militia to the direction of the national authority. It is, therefore, with the most evident propriety, that the plan of the convention proposes to empower the Union "to provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining the militia, and for governing such part of them as may be employed in the service of the United States, reserving to the states respectively the appointment of the officers, and the authority of training the militia according to the discipline prescribed by congress."[69]

A tolerable expertness in military movements is a business that requires time and practice. It is not a day, or even a week, that will suffice for the attainment of it. To oblige the great body of the yeomanry, and of the other classes of the citizens, to be under arms for the purpose of going through military exercises and evolutions, as often as might be necessary to acquire the degree of perfection which would entitle them to the character of a well-regulated militia, would be a real grievance to the people, and a serious public inconvenience and loss.[69]

"If a well regulated militia be the most natural defence of a free country, it ought certainly to be under the regulation and at the disposal of that body which is constituted the guardian of the national security...confiding the regulation of the militia to the direction of the national authority...(and) reserving to the states...the authority of training the militia".[69]

Well Regulated

The Random House College Dictionary (1980) gives four definitions for the word "regulate," which were all in use during the Colonial period and one more definition dating from 1690 (Oxford English Dictionary, 2nd Edition, 1989). They are:

1) To control or direct by a rule, principle, method, etc.

2) To adjust to some standard or requirement as for amount, degree, etc.

3) To adjust so as to ensure accuracy of operation.

4) To put in good order.

[obsolete sense]

b. Of troops: Properly disciplined. Obs. rare-1.

1690 Lond. Gaz. No. 2568/3 We hear likewise that the French are in a great Allarm in Dauphine and Bresse, not having at present 1500 Men of regulated Troops on that side.

We can begin to deduce what well-regulated meant from Alexander Hamilton's words in Federalist Paper No. 29:

The project of disciplining all the militia of the United States is as futile as it would be injurious if it were capable of being carried into execution. A tolerable expertness in military movements is a business that requires time and practice. It is not a day, nor a week nor even a month, that will suffice for the attainment of it. To oblige the great body of the yeomanry and of the other classes of the citizens to be under arms for the purpose of going through military exercises and evolutions, as often as might be necessary to acquire the degree of perfection which would entitle them to the character of a well regulated militia, would be a real grievance to the people and a serious public inconvenience and loss.
--- The Federalist Papers, No. 29.

Hamilton indicates a well-regulated militia is a state of preparedness obtained after rigorous and persistent training. Note the use of 'disciplining' which indicates discipline could be synonymous with well-trained.

This quote from the Journals of the Continental Congress, 1774-1789 also conveys the meaning of well regulated:

Resolved , That this appointment be conferred on experienced and vigilant general officers, who are acquainted with whatever relates to the general economy, manoeuvres and discipline of a well regulated army.
--- Saturday, December 13, 1777.

In the passage that follows, do you think the U.S. government was concerned because the Creek Indians' tribal regulations were superior to those of the Wabash or was it because they represented a better trained and disciplined fighting force?

That the strength of the Wabash Indians who were principally the object of the resolve of the 21st of July 1787, and the strength of the Creek Indians is very different. That the said Creeks are not only greatly superior in numbers but are more united, better regulated, and headed by a man whose talents appear to have fixed him in their confidence. That from the view of the object your Secretary has been able to take he conceives that the only effectual mode of acting against the said Creeks in case they should persist in their hostilities would be by making an invasion of their country with a powerful body of well regulated troops always ready to combat and able to defeat any combination of force the said Creeks could oppose and to destroy their towns and provisions.
--- Saturday, December 13, 1777.

I am unacquainted with the extent of your works, and consequently ignorant of the number or men necessary to man them. If your present numbers should be insufficient for that purpose, I would then by all means advise your making up the deficiency out of the best regulated militia that can be got.
--- George Washington (The Writings of George Washington, pp. 503-4, (G.P. Putnam & Sons, pub.)(1889))

The above quote is clearly not a request for a militia with the best set of regulations. (For brevity the entire passage is not shown and this quote should not be construed to imply Washington favored militias, in fact he thought little of them, as the full passage indicates.)

But Dr Sir I am Afraid it would blunt the keen edge they have at present which might be keept sharp for the Shawnese &c: I am convinced it would be Attended by considerable desertions. And perhaps raise a Spirit of Discontent not easily Queld amongst the best regulated troops, but much more so amongst men unused to the Yoak of Military Discipline.
--- Letter from Colonel William Fleming to Col. Adam Stephen, Oct 8, 1774, pp. 237-8. (Documentary History of Dunmore's War, 1774, Wisconsin historical society, pub. (1905))

And finally, a late-17th century comparison between the behavior of a large collection of seahorses and well-regulated soldiers:

One of the Seamen that had formerly made a Greenland Voyage for Whale-Fishing, told us that in that country he had seen very great Troops of those Sea-Horses ranging upon Land, sometimes three or four hundred in a Troop: Their great desire, he says, is to roost themselves on Land in the Warm Sun; and Whilst they sleep, they apppoint one to stand Centinel, and watch a certain time; and when that time's expir'd, another takes his place of Watching, and the first Centinel goes to sleep, &c. observing the strict Discipline, as a Body of Well-regulated Troops
--- (Letters written from New-England, A. D. 1686. P. 47, John Dutton (1867))

The quoted passages support the idea that a well-regulated militia was synonymous with one that was thoroughly trained and disciplined, and as a result, well-functioning. That description fits most closely with the "to put in good order" definition supplied by the Random House dictionary. The Oxford dictionary's definition also appears to fit if one considers discipline in a military context to include or imply well-trained.

What about the Amendment's text itself? Considering the adjective "well" and the context of the militia clause, which is more likely to ensure the security of a free state, a militia governed by numerous laws (or the proper amount of regulation [depending on the meaning of "well"] ) or a well-disciplined and trained militia? This brief textual analysis also suggests "to put in good order" is the correct interpretation of well regulated, signifying a well disciplined, trained, and functioning militia.

And finally, when regulated is used as an adjective, its meaning varies depending on the noun its modifying and of course the context. For example: well regulated liberty (properly controlled), regulated rifle (adjusted for accuracy), and regulated commerce (governed by regulations) all express a different meaning for regulated. This is by no means unusual, just as the word, bear, conveys a different meaning depending on the word it modifies: bearing arms, bearing fruit, or bearing gifts.

 

[whitehall]

I don't see anything about the 1st Amendment religious freedom that needs to be "well regulated". God help a kid who brings a Bible to school or a fire Dept that wants to keep a 100 year tradition going on public property when the 100 Million dollar funded tax exempt ACLU is on the job to make the Country safe for the strange version of "separation of church and state" as written by a former KKK member.

You both have no idea what "well regulated" means.

I know what "well regulated" means, but you seem to be so hung up on the 2nd that you lost sight of the whole freaking Bill of Rights.

 

[Pogo]

For the last 10 years the ACLU has been vigilant and concerned that some kid might sneak into school with a Bible in his hand while the secret FISA court has approved 98% of secret surveillance by the NSA and other covert arms of the federal government. The ACLU didn't wake up until the story broke. Maybe it's time to get the priorities straight and realize that the modern version of "separation of church and state" might not be the biggest threat to the Country.

Could it be that it's you who didn't wake up until now?

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Second amendment includes the words "well regulated" So gun laws are not the same as not being allowed to have any guns at all, and the constitutionality of big corporations buying elections is still up for argument.

Not according the ACLU, that means you are against the constitution.

Where has the ACLU come out regarding banning all gun ownership?

Where did I say that? I said that the ACLU has pledged to defend the individual right to own and bear arms. I also said that the ACLU has firmly come down on the side of corporations being able to spend money on elections by filing briefs in favor of overturning McCain-Feingold.

Just admit you hate the Constitution and wear it proudly.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

When a teacher is in front of a class room dealing with the class the teacher is a government official and thus if said teacher led a prayer at the school it would be government advocating religion.

It would? Are you sure about that?

Teacher to students: ?We are not dying today? - Video on NBCNews.com

People cling to superstition in crisis and the middle of a tornado is not exactly a class room teaching situation, and she admitted she did wrong by going to her superstition in such a circumstance.

You said that a teacher praying in the classroom would always be government advocating religion. Are you admitting you were wrong, or are you trying to pretend you are smart enough to weasel out of being wrong?

 

[FA_Q2]

The ACLU does not represent gun rights - they never have to my knowledge.
Kiwiman can you show any evidence that the ACLU has been involved with guns? (the second amendment rights of the individual to keep and bear arms)

From what I'm hearing from within the established political circles, the ACLU is going to finally declare itself in favor of the 2nd Amendment quite soon (2-4 years), especially if tyranny itself continues to spread like a pandemic.

The people at the ALCU fully understand what the 2nd Amendment is designed for. Notice they've never taken a stand AGAINST it.

Find any amendment they have taken a stand against.

People are missing the point here.

The ACLU will never "take a stand against" any part of the Constitution and the Bill of Rights because, they have only one purpose - to defend it. Period. End of discussion.

They are not right of left, not liberal and not conservative and you will never see them do anything that is.

The ACLU hsn't changed. They are still doing what they always have. They are completely non-partisan in their rabid and absolute defense of the Constitution and Bill of Rights.

We may disagree on an emotional level, but the facts never change.

False and I already gave you the link. From their own website:
Second Amendment | American Civil Liberties Union

In striking down Washington D.C.'s handgun ban by a 5-4 vote, the Supreme Court's decision in D.C. v. Heller held for the first time that the Second Amendment protects an individual's right to keep and bear arms, whether or not associated with a state militia. The ACLU disagrees with the Supreme Court's conclusion about the nature of the right protected by the Second Amendment. However, particular federal or state laws on licensing, registration, prohibition, or other regulation of the manufacture, shipment, sale, purchase or possession of guns may raise civil liberties questions.

ANALYSIS
Although ACLU policy cites the Supreme Court's decision in U.S. v. Miller as support for our position on the Second Amendment, our policy was never dependent on Miller. Rather, like all ACLU policies, it reflects the ACLU's own understanding of the Constitution and civil liberties.

They are opposed to the SCOTUS ruling confirming that the second is an individual right. They are a left organization as they interpret the constitution in a VERY left light. There is nothing wrong with that BUT there is if you refuse to see it or declare that they ALWAYS fall on the side of the constitution. They simply do not.

Not according the ACLU, that means you are against the constitution.

Where has the ACLU come out regarding banning all gun ownership?

Where did I say that? I said that the ACLU has pledged to defend the individual right to own and bear arms. I also said that the ACLU has firmly come down on the side of corporations being able to spend money on elections by filing briefs in favor of overturning McCain-Feingold.

Just admit you hate the Constitution and wear it proudly.

The above seems to be at odds with that. Can you provide a link?

 

[editec]

About the ACLU | American Civil Liberties Union

Educate yourselves.

 

[noose4]

That is agnosticism, atheism is the belief that there is no god. It is an active belief, not a lack thereof.

Atheism | Define Atheism at Dictionary.com

Atheism - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary

Lack of a belief in God is what it is, your definition is just different ways of saying that, the idea that Atheism is a religion is beyond absurd. Agnosticism is the doubt of there being a God but not being sure of such.

Not-so-clever distinction without a difference. Atheists believe Man (possibly BHO) is the supreme intelligence in the universe (if not, please specify who/what is), but claim exemption from the same restrictions they would place on all other belief systems. How noble of them.

You make that claim not atheists.

 

[noose4]

Second amendment includes the words "well regulated" So gun laws are not the same as not being allowed to have any guns at all, and the constitutionality of big corporations buying elections is still up for argument.

Noose, do you know what "well regulated" means?

Do you?

 

[noose4]

Not according the ACLU, that means you are against the constitution.

Where has the ACLU come out regarding banning all gun ownership?

Where did I say that? I said that the ACLU has pledged to defend the individual right to own and bear arms. I also said that the ACLU has firmly come down on the side of corporations being able to spend money on elections by filing briefs in favor of overturning McCain-Feingold.

Just admit you hate the Constitution and wear it proudly.

I support people being able to own guns with regulations so you are barking up the wrong tree and you are the Constitution hater.

 

[noose4]

It would? Are you sure about that?

Teacher to students: ?We are not dying today? - Video on NBCNews.com

People cling to superstition in crisis and the middle of a tornado is not exactly a class room teaching situation, and she admitted she did wrong by going to her superstition in such a circumstance.

You said that a teacher praying in the classroom would always be government advocating religion. Are you admitting you were wrong, or are you trying to pretend you are smart enough to weasel out of being wrong?

In that very video the teacher admitted she did something wrong when she turned to her superstition for comfort in that situation.

 

[Sallow]

For the last 10 years the ACLU has been vigilant and concerned that some kid might sneak into school with a Bible in his hand while the secret FISA court has approved 98% of secret surveillance by the NSA and other covert arms of the federal government. The ACLU didn't wake up until the story broke. Maybe it's time to get the priorities straight and realize that the modern version of "separation of church and state" might not be the biggest threat to the Country.

Finally?

Stop the New Patriot Act | American Civil Liberties Union

They were fighting it from the get go.

This is what conservatives were saying about the ACLU.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H-CAcdta_8I]Falwell and Robertson on The 700 Club after 9/11 - YouTube[/ame]

Get your story straight.

 

[jwoodie]

Lack of a belief in God is what it is, your definition is just different ways of saying that, the idea that Atheism is a religion is beyond absurd. Agnosticism is the doubt of there being a God but not being sure of such.

Not-so-clever distinction without a difference. Atheists believe Man (possibly BHO) is the supreme intelligence in the universe (if not, please specify who/what is), but claim exemption from the same restrictions they would place on all other belief systems. How noble of them.

You make that claim not atheists.

Can't/won't answer the question, eh? Ever hear of intellectual honesty?

 

[hortysir]

For the last 10 years the ACLU has been vigilant and concerned that some kid might sneak into school with a Bible in his hand while the secret FISA court has approved 98% of secret surveillance by the NSA and other covert arms of the federal government. The ACLU didn't wake up until the story broke. Maybe it's time to get the priorities straight and realize that the modern version of "separation of church and state" might not be the biggest threat to the Country.

Finally?

Stop the New Patriot Act | American Civil Liberties Union

They were fighting it from the get go.

This is what conservatives were saying about the ACLU.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H-CAcdta_8I"]Falwell and Robertson on The 700 Club after 9/11 - YouTube[/ame]

Get your story straight.

Falwell and Robertson??

Really, Sallow??????

I don't wanna hear a peep when I use Rosie or Jackson as spokes-models for the left.