A serious question about Jewish history

[Indofred]

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SERIOUS ANSWERS ONLY as this is in CLEAN DEBATE for exactly that reason.
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Jews believe that they are "Chosen" by god. .

Please provide links to reputable sites that demonstrate this was a factor in any of the events on the OP list.
So far, I've found nothing to suggest this up to the 5th century.
The events I've managed to find details of so far, suggest the "They killed Christ" argument along with powerful business rivals, not anything the Jews of the time did wrong.

I have to admit, I wasn't expecting this so, if you have actual evidence, please post it (with the links).
If not, your post is of no value as it's purely an unsupported accusation, not a fact.

 

[ima]

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SERIOUS ANSWERS ONLY as this is in CLEAN DEBATE for exactly that reason.
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Jews believe that they are "Chosen" by god. .

Please provide links to reputable sites that demonstrate this was a factor in any of the events on the OP list.
So far, I've found nothing to suggest this up to the 5th century.
The events I've managed to find details of so far, suggest the "They killed Christ" argument along with powerful business rivals, not anything the Jews of the time did wrong.

I have to admit, I wasn't expecting this so, if you have actual evidence, please post it (with the links).
If not, your post is of no value as it's purely an unsupported accusation, not a fact.

According to Jewish belief, Jews are the Chosen People because they were chosen to make the idea of one God known to the world.

The Meaning of Jews as the Chosen People

There, happy?

 

[Indofred]

Just to point something out.

As I get down the list, if there are crimes against Jews by Muslims, I will post them in the same way as I've done for the other items and with as much reasoning as I can find.
If Muslim groups are guilty, I'll post it regardless of what anyone may think and, if that's what I find, I have no intention of making any excuses for them.

There is nothing pro Muslim about this thread - just an attempt to review and understand history as in the list, up to Nazi Germany.

I've left the Nazis out because I don't want silly bickering about the truth of the holocaust.
Now, please let me get on with it and, please, post of you have anything helpful in the quest to understand.

 

[Indofred]

When you're finished, you should write a book: Justifications of today's muslim rabid anti-semitism.

Post reported - sorry but you're deliberately trying to spam the thread off the boards.
That would be a great pity as I'm learning a lot about history and I know a few other posters are interested in doing the same.
No room for blind hate on this thread.

It's just a suggestion and on topic for this thread. In 15 years, when you get to today's reasons for Jewish hate, my posts will be waiting for you.

That's a whole new thread and one I intend to start in CDZ as soon as time permits.
That's an interesting subject but I think it'll be hard to get clear, factual and unemotional replies.
That's what I'm informed CDZ is for, a place where real issues can be examined without all the hate rubbish.
Question is, if such a thread appeared, and I would send the OP to the mods before I posted it, could posters behave like adults, not wildcats?

However, hard day today, marking mid term exams tomorrow morning so I'll have a go in the afternoon.

 

[PaulS1950]

Shall we remember that Christianity and later, Islam both came as reforms or extensions of Judism.
Is it unusual that rebellious children say they hate their parents?
Those who founded Christianity were Jews.

 

[Indofred]

Shall we remember that Christianity and later, Islam both came as reforms or extensions of Judism.
Is it unusual that rebellious children say they hate their parents?
Those who founded Christianity were Jews.

I have yet to find evidence the 'naughty child' factor was the cause of problems but it may well be part of it and I've yet to get to the Muslim era.
Most so far seems to be from the first council deciding Christ was the son of God, thus Jews murdered God on Earth.
That and naughty Roman business ideals.

I've been a bit busy and feeling crap over the weekend so didn't do anything serious on the net but I intend to start the next event this evening.

 

[Indofred]

415 C.E. Alexandria Expulsion

Pope Theophilus of Alexandria died in 412 AD but I suspect his tactics may have had a lot to do with this one.
The pope dude was, according to Edward Gibbon, the perpetual enemy of peace and virtue, a bold, bad man, whose hands were alternately polluted with gold and with blood.
Seems his habit was to start a conflict he know he could easily win, then kill as many non Christians as he could. He did this with a pagan temple and, I suspect, his followers learnt a few things from him.

The newly dead Pope was replaced by a bloke called, Cyril of Alexandria.
Whilst I find "Cyril" to be a really odd name for a mass murdering bastard, seems he'd learnt well from old Alex and did about the same sort of stuff.
Best I can tell, the pagans, Christians and Jews were pretty much almost at war most of the time but Cyril (Doesn't he sound gay?), wanted his slice of the cake to be biggest so he engineered a situation that he knew the local Jews would never accept.
It would seem, the Jews were pretty much accepted and even ran, with consent, many public offices.
There doesn't seem to be any public disquiet against Jews.
Cyril seems to have used gangs of mad monks to do his dirty work, pretty much as the EDL do with football hooligans today.
Anyway, the long and short is, the Jews got pissed off, rioted but were suckered as Cyril had already sorted out their defeat.
He used that one to have them all booted out of the city.
The victor, as we know, writes history so a lot of accounts favour the Christian view, the Jews were total bastards out for a fight and total power.
Of course, there may well be a level of truth in this but I get the idea, the biggest criminal was Cyril.

There we have it. Greed strikes again, not a lot to do with anything the Jews actually did, more how they were set up to take a fall.

 

[Indofred]

Starting on:
418 C.E. Minorca Forced Conversion

This looks like a well researched subject, thus easy to sort out.
Luckily, Severus of Minorca wrote a letter (Epistula Severi), explaining and documenting the forced conversions.
Bradbury (Oxford Christian texts) and Lotter (Union of world Jewish studies) have translated and explained this event in detail.
It seems, Severus, the new and mainly zealot of a bishop, was seriously anti Jewish so he burnt down a synagogue and forced 500 Jews to convert to Christianity.
ALL accounts suggest previous good relations between the Christian and Jewish communities until Severus stuck his nose in and caused trouble.
The Jews seem to have held several high ranking political positions but by consent and with no descent until Severus arrived.

There is no argument as all leading researchers agree on the events and all suggest Severus was the cause.

There we have it.
One extremist with a small band of fools causing problems for everyone.

 

[Intense]

This is the CDZ. Let's stay on topic, and remain civil.

 

[Indofred]

Next up
469 C.E. Ipahan Holocaust

I suspect a major event (if that's what it was) may take a little more sorting out.
Working.

 

[ima]

Next up
469 C.E. Ipahan Holocaust

I suspect a major event (if that's what it was) may take a little more sorting out.
Working.

Wasn't the Jews fault. Next.

 

[Indofred]

Next up
469 C.E. Ipahan Holocaust

I suspect a major event (if that's what it was) may take a little more sorting out.
Working.

More sorting out than I expected.
Records of the time are confusing at best and accounts seem to vary.

King Bahram II (276–293 CE) seems to have claimed to have smashed the false religions, Christians and Jews amongst them.
Shapur I seems to have been pro Jewish as was Shapur II, ruler up to 379 AD.

According to Šahris-tānihā ī Ērān, Yazdegerd (r. 399-421), who's wife may have been Jewish, settled Jews in Jay.
The problem seems to have been with king Pērōz (r. 459-84) who ordered a massacre that killed half the Jews in the city and enslaved their sons.
According to Ḥamza Eṣfahāni, these events took place in or about the year 472.
The rumour was, Jews had flayed alive two Zoroastrian priests and used their skins in their tanning industry.

There is a problem. So far I've found nothing at all to back the Ḥamza Eṣfahāni account of events - not a sausage.
This event, so far, remains clouded in the mists of time.
If anyone can help, I'd he grateful.

 

[editec]

Fred, if you go back to the original ghetto - 12th C Venice - it was NOT at all voluntary on the part of the Jews.

They were restricted to that area, walled in and LOCKED in at night, by the 'civil' authorities.

That is well worth a bit of exploration.
I won't, as usual, accept a non validated post as fact but it fits in perfectly with the point of the thread so has to be worth a closer look.

I don't know about the exact date, but YES, the word Ghetto means WALL and it became a word used by Jews to describe the neighborhood they were exiled into.

OOPS!

I stand corrected by myself

Etymology

Dictionaries list a number of possible origins for the originally Italian term, including "gheto" or "ghet", which means slag or waste in Venetian, and was used in this sense in a reference to a foundry where slag was stored located on the same island as the area of Jewish confinement (the Venetian Ghetto),[2] and borghetto, diminutive of borgo 'borough'.[3]

 

[Indofred]

Fred, if you go back to the original ghetto - 12th C Venice - it was NOT at all voluntary on the part of the Jews.

They were restricted to that area, walled in and LOCKED in at night, by the 'civil' authorities.

That is well worth a bit of exploration.
I won't, as usual, accept a non validated post as fact but it fits in perfectly with the point of the thread so has to be worth a closer look.

I don't know about the exact date, but YES, the word Ghetto means WALL and it became a word used by Jews to describe the neighborhood they were exiled into.

OOPS!

I stand corrected by myself

Etymology

Dictionaries list a number of possible origins for the originally Italian term, including "gheto" or "ghet", which means slag or waste in Venetian, and was used in this sense in a reference to a foundry where slag was stored located on the same island as the area of Jewish confinement (the Venetian Ghetto),[2] and borghetto, diminutive of borgo 'borough'.[3]

That may well be useful for events further down the list - cheers.

 

[richstacy]

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SERIOUS ANSWERS ONLY as this is in CLEAN DEBATE for exactly that reason.
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This is NOT a thread about Israel/Palestine nor a hate thread of any sort.
It isn't pro Muslim, anti Christian or anti Jewish.
I don't want rubbish about the Palestine/Israel conflict or any modern arguments of any type.

I'm looking for a real answer to a serious question.

Jewish Persecution | Timeline of Judaism | History of AntiSemitism

This link is to a Jewish site that lists various horrors that have been done to Jews over the last couple of thousand years.
They've been kicked out, enslaved, massacred, mutilated, burnt alive, forced to convert to Christianity and generally abused where ever they've settled.

All said and done, they've been given a pretty crap time of it.
So, my question is, what caused so much hate in all these places?

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Once again - SERIOUS ANSWERS ONLY as this is in CLEAN DEBATE for exactly that reason.
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I believe it has been largely the false belief, often perpetuated by the Church, that Jews were responsible for the Death of Jesus. In fact one needs look no further than this to discount such beliefs: The following people were Jewish: Jesus, Joseph, Mary, Peter, Mathew, Luke, John, Paul etc, etc etc. It is impossible to hate Jews without hating them as well.

Of course there were some Jews who were for getting rid of Jesus, Just as there were some Christians who burned witches and heretics at the stake, and extracted confessions with thumbscrews.

 

[Indofred]

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SERIOUS ANSWERS ONLY as this is in CLEAN DEBATE for exactly that reason.
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This is NOT a thread about Israel/Palestine nor a hate thread of any sort.
It isn't pro Muslim, anti Christian or anti Jewish.
I don't want rubbish about the Palestine/Israel conflict or any modern arguments of any type.

I'm looking for a real answer to a serious question.

Jewish Persecution | Timeline of Judaism | History of AntiSemitism

This link is to a Jewish site that lists various horrors that have been done to Jews over the last couple of thousand years.
They've been kicked out, enslaved, massacred, mutilated, burnt alive, forced to convert to Christianity and generally abused where ever they've settled.

All said and done, they've been given a pretty crap time of it.
So, my question is, what caused so much hate in all these places?

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Once again - SERIOUS ANSWERS ONLY as this is in CLEAN DEBATE for exactly that reason.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I believe it has been largely the false belief, often perpetuated by the Church, that Jews were responsible for the Death of Jesus. In fact one needs look no further than this to discount such beliefs: The following people were Jewish: Jesus, Joseph, Mary, Peter, Mathew, Luke, John, Paul etc, etc etc. It is impossible to hate Jews without hating them as well.

Of course there were some Jews who were for getting rid of Jesus, Just as there were some Christians who burned witches and heretics at the stake, and extracted confessions with thumbscrews.

This seems to have been used by the early church for its own reasons, commonly cash.

 

[ima]

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
SERIOUS ANSWERS ONLY as this is in CLEAN DEBATE for exactly that reason.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This is NOT a thread about Israel/Palestine nor a hate thread of any sort.
It isn't pro Muslim, anti Christian or anti Jewish.
I don't want rubbish about the Palestine/Israel conflict or any modern arguments of any type.

I'm looking for a real answer to a serious question.

Jewish Persecution | Timeline of Judaism | History of AntiSemitism

This link is to a Jewish site that lists various horrors that have been done to Jews over the last couple of thousand years.
They've been kicked out, enslaved, massacred, mutilated, burnt alive, forced to convert to Christianity and generally abused where ever they've settled.

All said and done, they've been given a pretty crap time of it.
So, my question is, what caused so much hate in all these places?

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Once again - SERIOUS ANSWERS ONLY as this is in CLEAN DEBATE for exactly that reason.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I believe it has been largely the false belief, often perpetuated by the Church, that Jews were responsible for the Death of Jesus. In fact one needs look no further than this to discount such beliefs: The following people were Jewish: Jesus, Joseph, Mary, Peter, Mathew, Luke, John, Paul etc, etc etc. It is impossible to hate Jews without hating them as well.

Of course there were some Jews who were for getting rid of Jesus, Just as there were some Christians who burned witches and heretics at the stake, and extracted confessions with thumbscrews.

There's not even any real proof that Jesus even existed, Fred, is that the Jews fault as well?

 

[editec]

FYI

Partisans write their version of history and then REAL HISTORIANS write REAL HISTORY when they can.

Now do NOT tell me that the majority of you didn't once believe that the Pyramids were build by the Jews because I know damned well that that was the commonly understood history most of us were taught.

That FALSE history was brought to you by partisans.

Now thanks mostly to acheologists' findings of the records of how many people worked on those structures, and of the pay records of the workers who build them , HISTORY can finally lay that MYTH to rest.

I do not doubt many of us want to reject those findings because they don't jibe with our cherised beliefs.

History doesn't care what we want to believe.

History doesn't make moral arguments.

History just reports the verifiable facts as it uncovers them.

HISTORY, much like the physical sciences, REVISES ITSELF when new facts come to light.

In fact, that's what ALL real social sciences strive to do.

They report what they THINK they know, and when they find they were wrong, they report that they were wrong, too.

It's called INTELLECTUAL HONESTY.

Practice that and you will never again CARE if somebody proves you wrong.

In fact, when they do, YOU WILL THANK THEM for showing you the errors in your thinking.

 

[ThirdTerm]

False stereotypes about Judaism were prevalent in the Middle Ages and Ashkenazi Jews lived in Europe with little inflow or outflow from migration, conversion, or intermarriage with other groups, which served to maintain their ethnic identity while living in exile for 2,000 years. But their self-segregating lifestyle also reinforced those stereotypes due to the lack of communication with local populations.

North African Jews constitute the second largest Jewish Diaspora group. However, their relatedness to each other; to European, Middle Eastern, and other Jewish Diaspora groups; and to their former North African non-Jewish neighbors has not been well defined. Here, genome-wide analysis of five North African Jewish groups (Moroccan, Algerian, Tunisian, Djerban, and Libyan) and comparison with other Jewish and non-Jewish groups demonstrated distinctive North African Jewish population clusters with proximity to other Jewish populations and variable degrees of Middle Eastern, European, and North African admixture. Two major subgroups were identified by principal component, neighbor joining tree, and identity-by-descent analysis—Moroccan/Algerian and Djerban/Libyan—that varied in their degree of European admixture. These populations showed a high degree of endogamy and were part of a larger Ashkenazi and Sephardic Jewish group. By principal component analysis, these North African groups were orthogonal to contemporary populations from North and South Morocco, Western Sahara, Tunisia, Libya, and Egypt. Thus, this study is compatible with the history of North African Jews—founding during Classical Antiquity with proselytism of local populations, followed by genetic isolation with the rise of Christianity and then Islam, and admixture following the emigration of Sephardic Jews during the Inquisition.
http://www.pnas.org/content/109/34/13865.full?sid=1e36b837-72c9-4898-91ae-5d0a199df534

 

[PaulS1950]

I don't know what school you were in that taught you that the Jews built the pyramids but I was never taught that and I have gone through a lot of schooling. I have a masters in theology and history of religions.