A question for Conservatives

[code1211]

Speaking of Marxists?

Mark Rudd (cofounder of the Students for a Democratic Society -SDS) once faulted Abbey Hoffman (cofounder of the Youth International Party --aka the Yippies) for not having read Marx's tome DAS KAPITAL.

"I refuse to read it until it's put into CLASSIC COMIC form," was his retort.​

I don't think I knew anybody who waded through DAS KAPITAL.

What's the point?

It is the musings of a man whose POV was based on a world that not only no longer exists, but one that never really existed to begin with.

Marx was as mad as Ayn Rand.

Both totally missed the mark because both don't get human nature OR social psycology.

They both blinded themselves with their ideologically theories.

No, both



True dat.





By imagining that the LOSERS are going to go away quietly and die for the continued pleasure of the capitalist winners.

That assumption is as goofy as Marx's notion that people are going to become good communists and all learn to live in workers paradise



Well that complaint I didn't lodge because I wasn't faulting her prose style, but you are 100% on the mark there.

What parts of Rand's work support your conclusion?

Her unspoken but obvious presuppositions about Libertopia, amigo

The presumption that capitalism can exist outside the framework of a functional society.

The presumption that greed is good and inevitably leads to good outcomes.

The presumption that cream inevitably rises to the top.

The presumption that capitalism is a kind of meritocracy.

These are some of her assumptions that I can recall just off the top of my head, of course, since I haven't bothered to read that crazy lady's musings in 40 years or so.

But her goofy notions about how to create a utopian society certainly impressed me when I was 14 and didn't really know jackshit about the real human condition or how men operate in society.

So I guess you could say that I was a Randian objectivist libertopian when I was a child, but then I grew up.

You have drawn lessons from Rand that I missed.

I did not get from her that the losers would go quietly away. Rather, I got that the creative and the visionaries are the driving force behind progress and society as a whole pretty much uses them up and casts them aside. Notable exceptions are folks like Edison and Gates, although, it could be argued successfully that Gates in effect stole MSDOS from its real creator and profited much like the villains in "Atlas Shrugged".

Libertopia? Never read that word in her books. She had a well founded and richly justified distrust of Big Government. She believed it was wasteful. She believed that its cast of charachters is given to self agrandizement and that the sheer weight of the cash flow bends even the most scrupulous to willing thievery and deciet. I have seen nothing in my life that would disuade me from that belief.

Capitalism exists outside of a society? Again, I did not get that from my reading of her work. Capitalism, though, is not a governemtal system nor is it a societal system. It is an economic system. Governmental systems like a Republican Democracy and Societal constructs like Socialism can ride on top of the wealth created by Capitalism, but Capitalism is not and never has been either a societal construct or a form of government. I personnaly don't think that Capitalism can co-exist with a totalitarian form of government, but that's just me.

Greed is good. It is the only thing that we can depend on. Self interest is the only reliable guage of any thing's popularity. If a person's Greed manifests in gathering and keeping wealth, he should be allowed to do so. If it manifests in gathering and keeping friends, he should be allowed to do so. Mother Theresa was greedy for the rewards of Heaven. She should no more be condemned for relentlessly pursuing her greed than Bill Gates should be for even more relentlessly pursuing his.

Cream rises to the top? In my reading of her work, she seemed to be saying that "Cream" rising to the top is hindered by most people and most events. She also seemed to expouse that only through determined and continuing effort could the "Cream" avoid the traps and pitfalls of society and rise to the goals they sought. Most of the charachters in her books did not have the commitment and drive to do this.

Capitalism as a meritocracy? Again, this is not what I read. In Atlas Shrugged, the truly gifted were invited by John Galt to join him in a Utiopian village which they did. They actually abandoned society and Capitalism so they could pusue their passions and create engines that ran on air and houses designed perfectly for the setting. This village was as closely related to a Communist society as any one might imagine.

In the Fountainhead, Roarke went on for pages in pusuit of a explanation of what he was motivated by. He did not claim to be entitled to any reward outside of the ones that he set for his work. If that set payment was not offered and accepted, he did not feel that it was due to him. By the same token, if the payment for anything else was offered by others to others, he did not feel compelled to join in the payments.

Roarke felt that his work was his and he could sell it as he saw fit to anyone for an agreed upon compensation. Lacking that compensation, the work was not purchased and therefore remained his.

I didn't see Atlas Shrugged as a recipe for creating a Utopian society but rather as a cautionary tale about the abuse of those upon whom we depend to advance as a society technologically, organizationally and spiritually. It's interesting that those who are the successfully gifted or enlightened are villified today by the media and oustracised by the power brokers exactly as they were in her book. This is also a repeating theme in literature. "Contact" with Jodi Foster is an example of this.

Apparently, not much has changed in the last 70 or so years.

 

[daveman]

Jake Starkey, representing the Obama Fluffing, Marxist supporting wing of the Republican Party

You hush! He's a Real Conservative!

 

[JakeStarkey]

daveman and his friends certainly are not conservatives. They are mere far right droids needing talking points. That is what they made clear last night. They don't need to read at all to know. Ask em! Better yet, read CrusaderFrank, who is coming with a real stupid point that proves they don't read.

 

[CrusaderFrank]

daveman and his friends certainly are not conservatives. They are mere far right droids needing talking points. That is what they made clear last night. They don't need to read at all to know. Ask em!

How big is the "Marxist-defending" wing of your Republican Party, Jakey?

 

[JakeStarkey]

daveman and his friends certainly are not conservatives. They are mere far right droids needing talking points. That is what they made clear last night. They don't need to read at all to know. Ask em!

How big is the "Marxist-defending" wing of your Republican Party, Jakey?

Thank you 100% for coming through just as I knew you would.

The answer is simple: the same size as in your non-GOP? None.

You are the perfect example, along with bigreb, why you folks need to do some serious reading. You clearly don't understand your own talking points.

 

[daveman]

daveman and his friends certainly are not conservatives. They are mere far right droids needing talking points. That is what they made clear last night. They don't need to read at all to know. Ask em! Better yet, read CrusaderFrank, who is coming with a real stupid point that proves they don't read.

Are you ever going to get around to explaining why study of Marx is necessary when history has shown Marxism to be an utter failure, and Marxists to be stupid and/or malevolent?

Stop pretending you're superior for no apparent reason and answer the question, kid.

 

[M14 Shooter]

Have you ever read a complete text by Marx?
Have you ever studied Marx in a university context, where you unpacked his terms inside their historical context?

Of course.
The important thing to understand about Marx is that said historical context no longer exists. Given that this context is necessary for his theories to apply, his theories have no meaningful application.

The REAL question, then, is:
Have the proponents of Marxism ever read a complete text by Marx?
Have -they- ever studied Marx in a university context, where they unpacked his terms inside their historical context?

 

[JakeStarkey]

I have already explained it. Rich Lowery has clearly explained why education and college are essential for opportunities in our society, including access to the good life and solid marriage that nurture our children.

Your remarks, daveman, clearly reveal exactly what and why I am right and you are wandering in the intellectual void.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Have you ever read a complete text by Marx?
Have you ever studied Marx in a university context, where you unpacked his terms inside their historical context?

Of course.
The important thing to understand about Marx is that said historical context no longer exists. Given that this context is necessary for his theories to apply, his theories have no meaningful application.

The REAL question, then, is:
Have the proponents of Marxism ever read a complete text by Marx?
Have -they- ever studied Marx in a university context, where they unpacked his terms inside their historical context?

Excellent comments. To confuse the term "marxism" with "marxian economics" is a misnomer. They are not the same thing. Proponents and opponents of theories should read what they are supporting or opposing, for sure.

 

[CrusaderFrank]

"Nobody gets me like my Brokeback Buddy, Jake Starkey" -- K. Marx

 

[JakeStarkey]

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cqqxRPZdfvs[/ame]


"Nobody gets me like my hero, CrusaderFrank" -- your buddy, Adolph

You will find Frank in the background.

 

[Misty]

If all the poor exploited workers rose up and thumbed their noses at "the man", the workers themselves become "the man" and capitalism would remain the same.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Misty, go tell that to the Russians. "The Man" remains the same, the economic systems may differ.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Here you go, CrusaderFrank. This will help you to understand your hero was not killed in "Inglorious Basterds."

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dsbs1QAENFs&feature=player_embedded[/ame]

 

[daveman]

I have already explained it. Rich Lowery has clearly explained why education and college are essential for opportunities in our society, including access to the good life and solid marriage that nurture our children.

Your remarks, daveman, clearly reveal exactly what and why I am right and you are wandering in the intellectual void.

Like most leftists, you'd rather study the philosophy than what was done with it.

Your career in academia is not preparing your for the real world, boy. You professors have never dealt in reality. The ideals they advocate have been proven to be failures...but they refuse to acknowledge it. They're filling your head with shit, and telling you it smells good.

And like a good little sheep, you believe them. I'll bet you even have a Che t-shirt.

Grow up, boy.

 

[JakeStarkey]

I have already explained it. Rich Lowery has clearly explained why education and college are essential for opportunities in our society, including access to the good life and solid marriage that nurture our children.

Your remarks, daveman, clearly reveal exactly what and why I am right and you are wandering in the intellectual void.

Like most leftists, you'd rather study the philosophy than what was done with it.

Your career in academia is not preparing your for the real world, boy. You professors have never dealt in reality. The ideals they advocate have been proven to be failures...but they refuse to acknowledge it. They're filling your head with shit, and telling you it smells good.

And like a good little sheep, you believe them. I'll bet you even have a Che t-shirt.

Grow up, boy.

You talk like the ignorant uneducated minion that you are, daveman. From poor beginnings, I have made my mark at university, in the military, and in business. I work my butt every day for my family and my employees and my co-owners. My children have a future that yours will not. You will not have my future and life because you did not walk the road that is necessary for success.

Listen, tool. Lowery is a conservative, one of the greatest conservative columnists, you discount what he has written after reading his material, he would look you in the eye, daveman, and say to you, "You fucked yourself and you are whining to everybody else? Grow a set, boy, and get to work."

 

[daveman]

I have already explained it. Rich Lowery has clearly explained why education and college are essential for opportunities in our society, including access to the good life and solid marriage that nurture our children.

Your remarks, daveman, clearly reveal exactly what and why I am right and you are wandering in the intellectual void.

Like most leftists, you'd rather study the philosophy than what was done with it.

Your career in academia is not preparing your for the real world, boy. You professors have never dealt in reality. The ideals they advocate have been proven to be failures...but they refuse to acknowledge it. They're filling your head with shit, and telling you it smells good.

And like a good little sheep, you believe them. I'll bet you even have a Che t-shirt.

Grow up, boy.

You talk like the ignorant uneducated minion that you are, daveman. From poor beginnings, I have made my mark at university, in the military, and in business. I work my butt every day for my family and my employees and my co-owners. My children have a future that yours will not. You will not have my future and life because you did not walk the road that is necessary for success.

Listen, tool. Lowery is a conservative, one of the greatest conservative columnists, you discount what he has written after reading his material, he would look you in the eye, daveman, and say to you, "You fucked yourself and you are whining to everybody else? Grow a set, boy, and get to work."

Horseshit. You're 19 or 20, at school with Mummy & Daddy's credit card and the second car they bought you.

 

[JakeStarkey]

You describe yourself well, daveman. I am everything that you have hoped to be and failed at in life. Now you leave the service (just as I did) with your future in front of you but are afraid of tanking it (as I was not). I knew I would succeed if I would not be a tool and minion, and if you continue as that, boy, you will always be a failure.

My merciful heavens, you want a handout, so you are taking the talking points of the far droidright as if that will get you something.

You poor, pitiful fool.

 

[daveman]

You describe yourself well, daveman. I am everything that you have hoped to be and failed at in life. Now you leave the service (just as I did) with your future in front of you but are afraid of tanking it (as I was not). I knew I would succeed if I would not be a tool and minion, and if you continue as that, boy, you will always be a failure.

My merciful heavens, you want a handout, so you are taking the talking points of the far droidright as if that will get you something.

You poor, pitiful fool.

Put the bong down, kid.

One day you may grow up and realize leftism is a failure.

But I don't think you're that smart.

 

[JakeStarkey]

I am not a leftist and you certainly are a conservative, for sure. But you won't succeed because you aren't able to adapt to the world. Your words give you away.