A Puzzling Query From The Bible

[Bonzi]

When Jesus said "before Abraham was, I am" - they were ready to stone him for blasphemy.

Why?

Because he was calling himself God.

where in the bible ------by a gospel written by JOHN?

If you don't believe the Bible is the inspired word of God of course you won't believe it.
You should not believe any of it.
The argument is invalid at that point.
I was just answer the OP.

 

[hobelim]

When Jesus said "before Abraham was, I am" - they were ready to stone him for blasphemy.

Why?

Because he was calling himself God.

No, they were looking for any reason to charge Jesus with blasphemy because he exposed them as actors and lying frauds who were misleading the people to their destruction..

The argument was about how it was possible for Jesus to have seen Abraham before he was 50 years old which implies that if he was 50 they would have believed it possible that he could have seen Abraham which shows that seeing Abraham was about understanding Abraham, not knowing him personally or seeing him visually..

Jesus replied. before Abraham was born I am. This is not a claim of being God. He was saying that since God always existed Jesus had seen Abraham because that same God who knew Abraham was with and teaching Jesus about all things..





If Jesus thought that he was God, he was insane. That he did not think of himself as or claim to be God is clearly shown in John 20:17;

"But go find my brothers and tell them, 'I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God."

By saying that his God is our God Jesus effectively eliminated the possibility that he claimed to be or thought of himself as God.

 

[Bonzi]

The Jews answered Him (Jesus), 'For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make yourself out to be God.' ” (John 10:33*)

Jesus was not ignorant. God's name is I AM
It was said as a claim of being God.

 

[Bonzi]

“I and the Father are one.” (John 10:30*)

He never followed this up with "just as my followers and the Father are one".....
either they are one (part of the same, both God) or they are separate

 

[hobelim]

The Jews answered Him (Jesus), 'For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make yourself out to be God.' ” (John 10:33*)

Jesus was not ignorant. God's name is I AM
It was said as a claim of being God.

You are confusing two stories. That's the response given after Jesus said that the Father and I are one.

his answer was not a claim of divinity but a legal defense to a criminal charge by saying "Has it not been written in your Law, 'I SAID, YOU ARE GODS '?…

Elohim means gods but it also means judges. In the context Jesus used the word, elohim meant judges.

The logic of his defense was that if the act of God in giving the law made them judges (elohim) of the law, gods, then the act of God in revealing the hidden teaching of the law to Jesus made Jesus the Son of God, a direct reference to deuteronomy 18:18.

when Jesus said, "don't believe me because of my words, believe because of my deeds", he meant that by revealing teaching that had been hidden and lost to time for millennia, thereby raising the dead, giving sight to the blind, healing the sick, curing the crippled, etc., while leading people to the sanctuary of God, he already did what no other man but the Messiah could do.

The Father and I are one = "I will put my words into his mouth and he shall convey all of my commands."

 

[Bonzi]

well I guess we will all find out one day!

 

[Likkmee]

The sons of Gods saw the daughters of men and.......
Cain told The Lord " You can't send me out of the garden ! They'll kill me........."
" Worship no other Gods before me".

OK. Are you more confused yet ?
Try reading.

 

[Bonzi]

there are theories on the Sons of God - many think they are fallen angels.
I'm not Biblical scholar or theologian. these discussion should be had between those that really know their Bible. I've done studies, but, not in depth re: translations from Greek, etc.

 

[the_human_being]

Well, I really don't think about this very much since it is not a salvation issue but I do not embrace the Trinity doctrine.
The word, "Elohim" is usually understood to be a plural term. I look upon the word "God" as being a family.
Consider:

Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
John 1:1 speaks of a character named "Word" and plainly states that this Word character was WITH or in the company of one called "God" and also that this Word character was God. This certainly denotes TWO characters who are "God" therefore Elohim is plural and denotes a family.

Joh 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.
Same thing here in John 1:2 = Two characters together

Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
John 1:3 here indicates that this Word character was in reality the one who performed the actual work of the Creation.

Joh 1:4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
Joh 1:5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
Joh 1:6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
Joh 1:7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.
Joh 1:8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.
Joh 1:9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
Joh 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.

Joh 17:1 These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:

Now I simply must ask, "Was Jesus insane? Surely you don't ask me to conclude that Jesus was praying to himself?"

Joh 17:2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.

Joh 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

Now in 17:3, Jesus, who is now a man, references the Father as the ONE true God remaining in Heaven and Himself as being the one sent.

 

[the_human_being]

there are theories on the Sons of God - many think they are fallen angels.
I'm not Biblical scholar or theologian. these discussion should be had between those that really know their Bible. I've done studies, but, not in depth re: translations from Greek, etc.

You will be safe to consider the sons of god to be angels whether fallen ones or not:

Job_2:1 Again there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them to present himself before the LORD.
Job_38:7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

 

[HaShev]

"Son of" in this context and when not literal meant: "reflective emulation of", which is why angels, Israelites, David, Solomon are called "sons of" God(The Essence of Life).

While reading some banter here I've noticed you guys are basically describing Jesus as the mistake by Christians playing the role of Abbott of a silly Abbott and Costello WHO'S ON FIRST routine. In that Jesus is saying his God is "IAm" and they thought that was his claim.

ABBOTT ASKS COSTELLO
"who's your God?"
Costello replies "the great I Am"
Abbott therefore makes Costello his God,
and so we laugh, we cry, & we wonder why life is like a skit.

 

[irosie91]

When Jesus said "before Abraham was, I am" - they were ready to stone him for blasphemy.

Why?

Because he was calling himself God.

where in the bible ------by a gospel written by JOHN?

If you don't believe the Bible is the inspired word of God of course you won't believe it.
You should not believe any of it.
The argument is invalid at that point.
I was just answer the OP.

wrong again. I believe lots of the bible.----the credible stuff. Not only do I not
necessarily believe stuff written in Greek---about what "JESUS SAID"----but I do not
buy into the silly idea that a completely unknown person----who never met jesus ----
somehow KNEW what he said decades after he "said it" As far as the ------" I AM..." ----'even before the solar system was invented'-------does not have much meaning for me. --------I am absolutely not sure it means "I AM GOD" The
Jesus "arguing with the Pharisees" thing -----is truly ludicrous-----Jesus was a
PHARISEE. Do you imagine that "Pharisees" had isolated enclaves?
where???? Did they wear signs "I AM A PHARISEE"??? -----the whole story
is silly. If some "scholarly person" were to quote Jesus on so important an issue------one would think he would "quote" in the original Aramaic or Hebrew

 

[the_human_being]

"Son of" in this context and when not literal meant: "reflective emulation of", which is why angels, Israelites, David, Solomon are called "sons of" God(The Essence of Life).

While reading some banter here I've noticed you guys are basically describing Jesus as the mistake by Christians playing the role of Abbott of a silly Abbott and Costello WHO'S ON FIRST routine. In that Jesus is saying his God is "IAm" and they thought that was his claim.

ABBOTT ASKS COSTELLO
"who's your God?"
Costello replies "the great I Am"
Abbott therefore makes Costello his God,
and so we laugh, we cry, & we wonder why life is like a skit.

Actually, the Christian believes we will become the sons of God in our resurrection:

Joh_1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

Rom_8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
Rom_8:19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.

We have not as yet been born again into our Spirit bodies. We are not as yet manifested.

 

[irosie91]

The Jews answered Him (Jesus), 'For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make yourself out to be God.' ” (John 10:33*)

Jesus was not ignorant. God's name is I AM
It was said as a claim of being God.

in what language is "god's name, "I am' "------you got that name in some known
language? I am not sure how one says "I AM" in either Hebrew or Aramaic
The word-----which is sometimes used to approximate the Yud Hey Vav Hey----
thing -------is an esoteric form of the verb-------"to be"-----it does not translate as
"I AM"

 

[the_human_being]

Never mind part 2 of my reply, except when you have sources-bible verses these confusions don't occur.
You typed Daniel in your last reply when you meant to type Gabriel. I was referring to the Night Vision of the son of man coming with or out of the "gathering of hosts" called "CLOUDS". Your NT revisits this in Theslonians whereby it's by the call Michael to come up to MT Zion and that gathering of hosts (Clouds) for the Temple (Mikdash)
procession in his name.

In the verse you posted Daniel is talking to another Messenger not Gabriel who tells Gabriel to explain the vision. The begining and end subject is interweaved in little implications through those verses. Nobody ever notices these things=people are not very observent.
*Zooooom over the head*
Especially where Daniel 10 mentions
"Knowest thou wherefore I come unto thee "
Literally asked to note where the message and messenger comes from =world to come aka future.
Any scoffers or stasists on this subject can research sending sound faster then light or the former Pres. Clinton Science symposium with Hawkins where he admited this technology now existed and was achieved.
This admission was followed by the professor admitting he was wrong on former assumptions of no proof of time travel in history as he was pointed to proof in the Bible. A D'oh moment indeed.
That being noted, holographic images using Laser light produced through organized emission of photons thrusted faster then normal speed of light is not out of the question.

To be perfectly honest with you, most of the time I haven't the foggiest inkling as to what you are saying.

 

[irosie91]

Never mind part 2 of my reply, except when you have sources-bible verses these confusions don't occur.
You typed Daniel in your last reply when you meant to type Gabriel. I was referring to the Night Vision of the son of man coming with or out of the "gathering of hosts" called "CLOUDS". Your NT revisits this in Theslonians whereby it's by the call Michael to come up to MT Zion and that gathering of hosts (Clouds) for the Temple (Mikdash)
procession in his name.

In the verse you posted Daniel is talking to another Messenger not Gabriel who tells Gabriel to explain the vision. The begining and end subject is interweaved in little implications through those verses. Nobody ever notices these things=people are not very observent.
*Zooooom over the head*
Especially where Daniel 10 mentions
"Knowest thou wherefore I come unto thee "
Literally asked to note where the message and messenger comes from =world to come aka future.
Any scoffers or stasists on this subject can research sending sound faster then light or the former Pres. Clinton Science symposium with Hawkins where he admited this technology now existed and was achieved.
This admission was followed by the professor admitting he was wrong on former assumptions of no proof of time travel in history as he was pointed to proof in the Bible. A D'oh moment indeed.
That being noted, holographic images using Laser light produced through organized emission of photons thrusted faster then normal speed of light is not out of the question.

To be perfectly honest with you, most of the time I haven't the foggiest inkling as to what you are saying.

ha shev----cites as explanations of that which is written in the bible----the POETIC AND SYMBOLIC USAGES OF THE TIME. ------there is, actually, no other
way to understand the stuff-------it would be like reading Shakespeare without knowing what "ANON" means. ----some of the chit chat here is all about what "SON OF..." meant at the time of Jesus -----for the people of Judea

 

[the_human_being]

Never mind part 2 of my reply, except when you have sources-bible verses these confusions don't occur.
You typed Daniel in your last reply when you meant to type Gabriel. I was referring to the Night Vision of the son of man coming with or out of the "gathering of hosts" called "CLOUDS". Your NT revisits this in Theslonians whereby it's by the call Michael to come up to MT Zion and that gathering of hosts (Clouds) for the Temple (Mikdash)
procession in his name.

In the verse you posted Daniel is talking to another Messenger not Gabriel who tells Gabriel to explain the vision. The begining and end subject is interweaved in little implications through those verses. Nobody ever notices these things=people are not very observent.
*Zooooom over the head*
Especially where Daniel 10 mentions
"Knowest thou wherefore I come unto thee "
Literally asked to note where the message and messenger comes from =world to come aka future.
Any scoffers or stasists on this subject can research sending sound faster then light or the former Pres. Clinton Science symposium with Hawkins where he admited this technology now existed and was achieved.
This admission was followed by the professor admitting he was wrong on former assumptions of no proof of time travel in history as he was pointed to proof in the Bible. A D'oh moment indeed.
That being noted, holographic images using Laser light produced through organized emission of photons thrusted faster then normal speed of light is not out of the question.

To be perfectly honest with you, most of the time I haven't the foggiest inkling as to what you are saying.

ha shev----cites as explanations of that which is written in the bible----the POETIC AND SYMBOLIC USAGES OF THE TIME. ------there is, actually, no other
way to understand the stuff-------it would be like reading Shakespeare without knowing what "ANON" means. ----some of the chit chat here is all about what "SON OF..." meant at the time of Jesus -----for the people of Judea

Perhaps that is my problem. I read the Bible for what it actually does say. Why make it a mystical or fairy tale?

 

[irosie91]

Never mind part 2 of my reply, except when you have sources-bible verses these confusions don't occur.
You typed Daniel in your last reply when you meant to type Gabriel. I was referring to the Night Vision of the son of man coming with or out of the "gathering of hosts" called "CLOUDS". Your NT revisits this in Theslonians whereby it's by the call Michael to come up to MT Zion and that gathering of hosts (Clouds) for the Temple (Mikdash)
procession in his name.

In the verse you posted Daniel is talking to another Messenger not Gabriel who tells Gabriel to explain the vision. The begining and end subject is interweaved in little implications through those verses. Nobody ever notices these things=people are not very observent.
*Zooooom over the head*
Especially where Daniel 10 mentions
"Knowest thou wherefore I come unto thee "
Literally asked to note where the message and messenger comes from =world to come aka future.
Any scoffers or stasists on this subject can research sending sound faster then light or the former Pres. Clinton Science symposium with Hawkins where he admited this technology now existed and was achieved.
This admission was followed by the professor admitting he was wrong on former assumptions of no proof of time travel in history as he was pointed to proof in the Bible. A D'oh moment indeed.
That being noted, holographic images using Laser light produced through organized emission of photons thrusted faster then normal speed of light is not out of the question.

To be perfectly honest with you, most of the time I haven't the foggiest inkling as to what you are saying.

ha shev----cites as explanations of that which is written in the bible----the POETIC AND SYMBOLIC USAGES OF THE TIME. ------there is, actually, no other
way to understand the stuff-------it would be like reading Shakespeare without knowing what "ANON" means. ----some of the chit chat here is all about what "SON OF..." meant at the time of Jesus -----for the people of Judea

Perhaps that is my problem. I read the Bible for what it actually does say. Why make it a mystical or fairy tale?

You know Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek? -------as it was used about two millennia
ago? I am damned impressed. I know almost no Aramaic----NO greek,, and
Hebrew---not so good........Long ago before I knew any Hebrew at all------I was damned surprised at what the bible----(the stuff written in Hebrew) really says.
When I was a kid ----in order to know what was going on in reading Shakespeare-----I needed something like "CLIFF's NOTES" -------afterawhile-------it gets easier

 

[the_human_being]

Never mind part 2 of my reply, except when you have sources-bible verses these confusions don't occur.
You typed Daniel in your last reply when you meant to type Gabriel. I was referring to the Night Vision of the son of man coming with or out of the "gathering of hosts" called "CLOUDS". Your NT revisits this in Theslonians whereby it's by the call Michael to come up to MT Zion and that gathering of hosts (Clouds) for the Temple (Mikdash)
procession in his name.

In the verse you posted Daniel is talking to another Messenger not Gabriel who tells Gabriel to explain the vision. The begining and end subject is interweaved in little implications through those verses. Nobody ever notices these things=people are not very observent.
*Zooooom over the head*
Especially where Daniel 10 mentions
"Knowest thou wherefore I come unto thee "
Literally asked to note where the message and messenger comes from =world to come aka future.
Any scoffers or stasists on this subject can research sending sound faster then light or the former Pres. Clinton Science symposium with Hawkins where he admited this technology now existed and was achieved.
This admission was followed by the professor admitting he was wrong on former assumptions of no proof of time travel in history as he was pointed to proof in the Bible. A D'oh moment indeed.
That being noted, holographic images using Laser light produced through organized emission of photons thrusted faster then normal speed of light is not out of the question.

To be perfectly honest with you, most of the time I haven't the foggiest inkling as to what you are saying.

ha shev----cites as explanations of that which is written in the bible----the POETIC AND SYMBOLIC USAGES OF THE TIME. ------there is, actually, no other
way to understand the stuff-------it would be like reading Shakespeare without knowing what "ANON" means. ----some of the chit chat here is all about what "SON OF..." meant at the time of Jesus -----for the people of Judea

Perhaps that is my problem. I read the Bible for what it actually does say. Why make it a mystical or fairy tale?

You know Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek? -------as it was used about two millennia
ago? I am damned impressed. I know almost no Aramaic----NO greek,, and
Hebrew---not so good........Long ago before I knew any Hebrew at all------I was damned surprised at what the bible----(the stuff written in Hebrew) really says.
When I was a kid ----in order to know what was going on in reading Shakespeare-----I needed something like "CLIFF's NOTES" -------afterawhile-------it gets easier

No I certainly do not but I am fortunate in that my Bible has already been translated into English for me and the OT portion of my Bible has pretty much been verified by the discovery and translation into English of the Dead Sea Scrolls. I have heard many late comers claim the Bible is mistranslated and that they are the authority on the correct translation. These people usually make asses out of themselves since they are so very far removed from the original inspired translators.

 

[OldLady]

Have you ever considered this oddity: in Genesis, God referring to Himself in the third person?


Genesis 1:26says, “Then God said, ‘Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth, and over all the creatures that move along the ground.’”


Genesis 3:22states, “And the LORD God said, ‘The man has now become like one of us.’”


Genesis 11:7 "Come, let us go down and confuse their language so they will not understand each other."



Is one to conclude that there may be more than one Eternal Being???




Well, no.... the Bible makes clear that there is only one.


1. "Deuteronomy 4:35,39 — Unto thee it was shown, that thou mightest know that the LORD he is God; there is none else beside him. (39) Know therefore this day, and consider it in thine heart, that the LORD he is God in heaven above, and upon the earth beneath: there is none else.

2. Deuteronomy 6:4 — Hear, O Israel: The LORD thy God is one LORD. [Note in Mark 12:28-34 how Jesus and a Jewish scribe he encountered understood this text.]

3. Deuteronomy32:39 — See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand.

4. 2 Samuel 7:22 — Wherefore thou art great, O LORD God; for there is none like thee, neither is there any God beside thee, according to all that we have heard with our ears.


5. 1 Kings 8:60 — That all the people of the earth may know that the LORD is God, and that there is none else.

7. 2 Kings 19:15 — And Hezekiah prayed before the LORD, and said, O LORD God of Israel, which dwellest between the cherubims, thou art the God, even thou alone, of all the kingdoms of the earth; thou hast made heaven and earth.


8. 1 Chronicles 17:20 — O LORD, there is none like thee, neither is there any God beside thee, according to all that we have heard with our ears.

9. Nehemiah 9:6 — Thou, even thou, art LORD alone; thou has made heaven, the heaven of heavens, with all their host, the earth, and all things that are therein, the seas, and all that is therein, and thou preservest them all; and the host of heaven worshippeth thee.

11. Psalm 86:10 — For thou art great, and doest wondrous things: thou art God alone."
28 Biblical Passages Which Explicitly Teach There is Only One God

If you value your faith, I suggest you don't delve too deeply into any unusual things like that you might find in the bible. Just gloss over it, and continue to concentrate on the parts that you like as you always have. Actual study of the bible, and expecting it to make sense has turned many strong believers into agnostics or atheists. The bible only works if you chose to suspend rational thought.

Bulldog, You are very wise. In 2 weeks I will have completed my 4th decade on this planet, and have believed in God all my life. But I also have a moderate sense of logic, and so no longer believe as I did as a child. Things like the Holocaust and Sandy Hook cast doubt on whether God knows my name, as I once believed. I am still a believer, and a Bible quoter, and try to live by the principles I find there. But somewhere along the line, I discovered that I have learned that what I once thought, that God is there to take care of me, is wrong, and he probably wont be there for me. So when I see the suffering today of Middle East Christians and question why we serve a God that is deaf to our pain, I have to admit how little I understand of what he wants from us. Surely Christian agony does not pleasure him, so what's going on?

He let his only Son go through quite a bit, also. Maybe He can't take sides, has to let His creations battle it out for good or ill. All the more reason to keep fighting for what's right, yes?