71% Of US Do NOT Want Debt Ceiling Raised

[MajinLink]

I wouldn't mind the celing raised as long as they cut defense spending

 

[Toro]

Why do I have to answer who not to pay when I have had the position for years that we should not be blindly pushing up the debt? You have been putting off the inevitable for years, and want to continue doing the same thing. You are the one that has to deal with the consequences of your decisions, I already am.

You have to answer because those are the consequences of what you are proposing.

Who doesn't get their social security check? Which doctors don't get paid? Which army units aren't getting their armor?

Those are all real-world consequences of not funding what is by law to be paid, not to mention instantly imposing a 9% real decline in GDP and wreaking havoc and chaos in the financial markets.

I am not proposing anything. I am pointing out that the practice of raising the debt ceiling cannot go on forever, and will have consequences somewhere down the road. There are real world consequences for continually putting off a hard decision just because you do not like the consequences now. This cannot go on forever, and sooner or later you, or your children, are going to pay the price, just California, and every other organization that thought that the consequences were some else's problem.

I am not the problem here, you are. I am not saying we should tackle this without thought, but I am saying we cannot ignore it. You, on the other hand, seem to think ignoring it is not going to be a problem.

This is what I was responding to.

I also wonder just how bad actually refusing to borrow more money would be if we do not default on the existing debt.

This could be catastrophic.

Unlike yourself - I am assuming - I've lived through where a jurisdiction had to solve its budget crisis and massive fiscal deficit. Twice. And one of those jurisdiction's bonds were rated junk.

The way you cut the deficit is to

1. Cut spending
2. Raise taxes

Primarily the first, but also the second.

But before we can set about fixing our fiscal problem, we have to have an adult conversation. We have to have an honest discussion about what this entails. And people who say "Never raise my taxes" or "Never cut my spending" are part of the problem and are not engaged in an adult conversation. People must understand that we must all sacrifice something.

Not raising the debt ceiling is a poorly thought-out gimmick designed to avoid a hard conversation.

 

[Lumpy 1]

You have to answer because those are the consequences of what you are proposing.

Who doesn't get their social security check? Which doctors don't get paid? Which army units aren't getting their armor?

Those are all real-world consequences of not funding what is by law to be paid, not to mention instantly imposing a 9% real decline in GDP and wreaking havoc and chaos in the financial markets.

I am not proposing anything. I am pointing out that the practice of raising the debt ceiling cannot go on forever, and will have consequences somewhere down the road. There are real world consequences for continually putting off a hard decision just because you do not like the consequences now. This cannot go on forever, and sooner or later you, or your children, are going to pay the price, just California, and every other organization that thought that the consequences were some else's problem.

I am not the problem here, you are. I am not saying we should tackle this without thought, but I am saying we cannot ignore it. You, on the other hand, seem to think ignoring it is not going to be a problem.

This is what I was responding to.

I also wonder just how bad actually refusing to borrow more money would be if we do not default on the existing debt.

This could be catastrophic.

Unlike yourself - I am assuming - I've lived through where a jurisdiction had to solve its budget crisis and massive fiscal deficit. Twice. And one of those jurisdiction's bonds were rated junk.

The way you cut the deficit is to

1. Cut spending
2. Raise taxes

Primarily the first, but also the second.

But before we can set about fixing our fiscal problem, we have to have an adult conversation. We have to have an honest discussion about what this entails. And people who say "Never raise my taxes" or "Never cut my spending" are part of the problem and are not engaged in an adult conversation. People must understand that we must all sacrifice something.

Not raising the debt ceiling is a poorly thought-out gimmick designed to avoid a hard conversation.

Cut government spending by what 20% by March.. Screw raising taxes, that's like throwing candy at a kid and not expecting their going to gobble it up..

 

[HUGGY]

And not paying more a bit later is a better choice because? Paying in dollars that are not worth anything is better choice?

The situation is screwed no matter what, there are only bad alternatives.

The bond rates are rising because inflation expectations, not economic growth. But wasn't the whole purpose of QE2 to LOWER interest rates? Anyway rising interest rates are no proof of economic recovery. The unemployment numbers tell different story. So far there has been minimal recovery, and how much of that is going to be destroyed when the rates raise we can only guess.

Anyway that is my 2c on the issue.

It is hard to argue that a long-term solution exists without tax increases. I know that flies in the face of the dogma of the last few years, but it's realistic. We have a massive empire to maintain and big problems at home to boot.

Tariffs (best solution by far IMO), fuel tax, VAT, or just good ol'fashioned income tax increases - You are correct that if we resolve to vilify and reject all of them, we will only be postponing the problem.

Shrinking the size of government is not impossible, but quite implausible. The only contemporary POTUS to do so was Clinton, and today's cons still chastise him for it.

Either tax increases or cuts to government spending will injure a still-fragile economy, so I'm afraid that for now, deficit spending is our only option.

If we try to impose tariffs we will be violating international law and treaties we have signed. That makes that impossible. We do need to decrease spending and increase revenue, but we need to do it legally.

The only thing that is seemingly impossible is to admit is that "we" have made mistakes. The only possible path is to move on. It is no more reasonable to condemn our future to oblivion than to correct our errors. If the "way" is to just print more money then so be it. I refuse to accept that the thieves have won the day. If I go there then the only reasonable alternative is to become one myself and I don't think you all would like that outcome.

 

[Toro]

Cut government spending by what 20% by March.. Screw raising taxes, that's like throwing candy at a kid and not expecting their going to gobble it up..

You have to do both. You will not get a political compromise if you don't. Saying "do only this" or "do only that" means that people want others to sacrifice, not themselves. It does nothing to solve the problem.

 

[Lumpy 1]

Cut government spending by what 20% by March.. Screw raising taxes, that's like throwing candy at a kid and not expecting their going to gobble it up..

You have to do both. You will not get a political compromise if you don't. Saying "do only this" or "do only that" means that people want others to sacrifice, not themselves. It does nothing to solve the problem.

I think the Government has squeezed enough sweat and blood out of the citizens honestly and their doing a rotten job.

Where do you get all this trust that they will do the right thing, given the abominable track record..? just asking..

No doubt, they will raise the debt ceiling, we have zero control over that...Hell, I've accepted that..

 

[Cuyo]

Cut government spending by what 20% by March.. Screw raising taxes, that's like throwing candy at a kid and not expecting their going to gobble it up..

Sounds good when you make it so simple, doesn't it?

But alas, even it it were possible to "Just cut spending by 20%," that spending cut would not alleviate the necessity for a higher debt ceiling.

 

[Lumpy 1]

Cut government spending by what 20% by March.. Screw raising taxes, that's like throwing candy at a kid and not expecting their going to gobble it up..

Sounds good when you make it so simple, doesn't it?

But alas, even it it were possible to "Just cut spending by 20%," that spending cut would not alleviate the necessity for a higher debt ceiling.

Yup.. I'm smart enough to know we're screwed, we have no control and we're watching America go down in flames sooner or later. I'm just adding some spice and letting off a little heat honestly..

May as well enjoy the ride...

 

[Toro]

Cut government spending by what 20% by March.. Screw raising taxes, that's like throwing candy at a kid and not expecting their going to gobble it up..

You have to do both. You will not get a political compromise if you don't. Saying "do only this" or "do only that" means that people want others to sacrifice, not themselves. It does nothing to solve the problem.

I think the Government has squeezed enough sweat and blood out of the citizens honestly and their doing a rotten job.

Where do you get all this trust that they will do the right thing, given the abominable track record..? just asking..

No doubt, they will raise the debt ceiling, we have zero control over that...Hell, I've accepted that..

We have to have political leadership, which comes from a groundswell of support for the measures that must be taken.

We are starting to see a little bit of that. The Tea Party is asking the right questions. The President's deficit reduction committee is also a good start. We need another Ross Perot, who asked the same questions in the early 90s. But there must be a realization by the public that they have to sacrifice something. When that happens, the politicians will follow.

 

[Lumpy 1]

You have to do both. You will not get a political compromise if you don't. Saying "do only this" or "do only that" means that people want others to sacrifice, not themselves. It does nothing to solve the problem.

I think the Government has squeezed enough sweat and blood out of the citizens honestly and their doing a rotten job.

Where do you get all this trust that they will do the right thing, given the abominable track record..? just asking..

No doubt, they will raise the debt ceiling, we have zero control over that...Hell, I've accepted that..

We have to have political leadership, which comes from a groundswell of support for the measures that must be taken.

We are starting to see a little bit of that. The Tea Party is asking the right questions. The President's deficit reduction committee is also a good start. We need another Ross Perot, who asked the same questions in the early 90s. But there must be a realization by the public that they have to sacrifice something. When that happens, the politicians will follow.

I'm off to bed but don't you think cutting spending will be sufferance enough for the American people?

 

[Toro]

I think the Government has squeezed enough sweat and blood out of the citizens honestly and their doing a rotten job.

Where do you get all this trust that they will do the right thing, given the abominable track record..? just asking..

No doubt, they will raise the debt ceiling, we have zero control over that...Hell, I've accepted that..

We have to have political leadership, which comes from a groundswell of support for the measures that must be taken.

We are starting to see a little bit of that. The Tea Party is asking the right questions. The President's deficit reduction committee is also a good start. We need another Ross Perot, who asked the same questions in the early 90s. But there must be a realization by the public that they have to sacrifice something. When that happens, the politicians will follow.

I'm off to bed but don't you think cutting spending will be sufferance enough for the American people?

Everybody has to sacrifice something, and most of the sacrifice will have to come from spending cuts.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

You have to answer because those are the consequences of what you are proposing.

Who doesn't get their social security check? Which doctors don't get paid? Which army units aren't getting their armor?

Those are all real-world consequences of not funding what is by law to be paid, not to mention instantly imposing a 9% real decline in GDP and wreaking havoc and chaos in the financial markets.

I am not proposing anything. I am pointing out that the practice of raising the debt ceiling cannot go on forever, and will have consequences somewhere down the road. There are real world consequences for continually putting off a hard decision just because you do not like the consequences now. This cannot go on forever, and sooner or later you, or your children, are going to pay the price, just California, and every other organization that thought that the consequences were some else's problem.

I am not the problem here, you are. I am not saying we should tackle this without thought, but I am saying we cannot ignore it. You, on the other hand, seem to think ignoring it is not going to be a problem.

This is what I was responding to.

I also wonder just how bad actually refusing to borrow more money would be if we do not default on the existing debt.

This could be catastrophic.

Unlike yourself - I am assuming - I've lived through where a jurisdiction had to solve its budget crisis and massive fiscal deficit. Twice. And one of those jurisdiction's bonds were rated junk.

The way you cut the deficit is to

1. Cut spending
2. Raise taxes

Primarily the first, but also the second.

But before we can set about fixing our fiscal problem, we have to have an adult conversation. We have to have an honest discussion about what this entails. And people who say "Never raise my taxes" or "Never cut my spending" are part of the problem and are not engaged in an adult conversation. People must understand that we must all sacrifice something.

Not raising the debt ceiling is a poorly thought-out gimmick designed to avoid a hard conversation.

Asking a question is bad?

The debt ceiling is always raised when the issue comes up, and ignored the rest of the time. You can sit there and preach how we have to raise the ceiling all you want, and try to scare me by telling me the consequences of not doing so, but if all you can do is attack my questions and attempt to scare me more it is not going to make any type of case for your position.

I do know for a fact that we cannot just go on raising the debt ceiling indefinitely. I know the consequences of that will be bad, and I know that they will outweigh anything you can scaremonger up about not doing it. If you want to be afraid, feel free, just do not expect everyone else to follow you. Most intelligent people recognize fear, and use it to grow, not hide.

Maybe the only way to have that adult conversation is to refuse to raise the debt ceiling.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

It is hard to argue that a long-term solution exists without tax increases. I know that flies in the face of the dogma of the last few years, but it's realistic. We have a massive empire to maintain and big problems at home to boot.

Tariffs (best solution by far IMO), fuel tax, VAT, or just good ol'fashioned income tax increases - You are correct that if we resolve to vilify and reject all of them, we will only be postponing the problem.

Shrinking the size of government is not impossible, but quite implausible. The only contemporary POTUS to do so was Clinton, and today's cons still chastise him for it.

Either tax increases or cuts to government spending will injure a still-fragile economy, so I'm afraid that for now, deficit spending is our only option.

If we try to impose tariffs we will be violating international law and treaties we have signed. That makes that impossible. We do need to decrease spending and increase revenue, but we need to do it legally.

The only thing that is seemingly impossible is to admit is that "we" have made mistakes. The only possible path is to move on. It is no more reasonable to condemn our future to oblivion than to correct our errors. If the "way" is to just print more money then so be it. I refuse to accept that the thieves have won the day. If I go there then the only reasonable alternative is to become one myself and I don't think you all would like that outcome.

Ignoring international law and our treaties is not moving forward. I am not the one that wants to condemn our future, I am just pointing out that imposing tariffs is a wrong choice. On top of the reasons I mentioned, it would actually hurt our economy.

 

[Toro]

Asking a question is bad?

The debt ceiling is always raised when the issue comes up, and ignored the rest of the time. You can sit there and preach how we have to raise the ceiling all you want, and try to scare me by telling me the consequences of not doing so, but if all you can do is attack my questions and attempt to scare me more it is not going to make any type of case for your position.

I do know for a fact that we cannot just go on raising the debt ceiling indefinitely. I know the consequences of that will be bad, and I know that they will outweigh anything you can scaremonger up about not doing it. If you want to be afraid, feel free, just do not expect everyone else to follow you. Most intelligent people recognize fear, and use it to grow, not hide.

Maybe the only way to have that adult conversation is to refuse to raise the debt ceiling.

Closing your eyes, putting your fingers in your ears and saying "La-la-la, I can't hear you" doesn't change the consequences of the actions. It's not scaremongering to tell you to leave if a category 5 hurricane is coming your way. But people always stick around anyways, thinking the storm won't be that bad.

Of course you can raise the debt ceiling indefinitely. Any Finance 101 student knows that what matters isn't the level of debt but the level of debt relative to assets. As long as the economy is growing, the level of debt can grow as well. The problem is when debt gets too large relative to assets.

Unfortunately, you are probably correct in that the only to have an adult conversation is to have a crisis. Inertia is a powerful force, and people often only fundamentally change once there is a crisis.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Asking a question is bad?

The debt ceiling is always raised when the issue comes up, and ignored the rest of the time. You can sit there and preach how we have to raise the ceiling all you want, and try to scare me by telling me the consequences of not doing so, but if all you can do is attack my questions and attempt to scare me more it is not going to make any type of case for your position.

I do know for a fact that we cannot just go on raising the debt ceiling indefinitely. I know the consequences of that will be bad, and I know that they will outweigh anything you can scaremonger up about not doing it. If you want to be afraid, feel free, just do not expect everyone else to follow you. Most intelligent people recognize fear, and use it to grow, not hide.

Maybe the only way to have that adult conversation is to refuse to raise the debt ceiling.

Closing your eyes, putting your fingers in your ears and saying "La-la-la, I can't hear you" doesn't change the consequences of the actions. It's not scaremongering to tell you to leave if a category 5 hurricane is coming your way. But people always stick around anyways, thinking the storm won't be that bad.

Of course you can raise the debt ceiling indefinitely. Any Finance 101 student knows that what matters isn't the level of debt but the level of debt relative to assets. As long as the economy is growing, the level of debt can grow as well. The problem is when debt gets too large relative to assets.

Unfortunately, you are probably correct in that the only to have an adult conversation is to have a crisis. Inertia is a powerful force, and people often only fundamentally change once there is a crisis.

Yet that is exactly what you are doing. Your fear of the possible, and unproven, negative consequences of not doing something have you calling for us to do the same thing again. What makes you think the politicians are going to do anything about the problem after they raise the ceiling? Do you have some reason to trust them that I am unaware of?

We need to change something, and the only way I see to accomplish that is to not do the same thing again.

 

[Toro]

Yet that is exactly what you are doing. Your fear of the possible, and unproven, negative consequences of not doing something have you calling for us to do the same thing again. What makes you think the politicians are going to do anything about the problem after they raise the ceiling? Do you have some reason to trust them that I am unaware of?

We need to change something, and the only way I see to accomplish that is to not do the same thing again.

If the United States does not de facto raise the debt ceiling, it will mean that roughly 9% of spending would come out of the economy, which would be the biggest decline in GDP since the Great Depression during the most severe economic crisis since the Great Depression. Inducing the worst economic contraction in generations during the worst economic crisis in generations is not intelligent policy, which is why the debt ceiling will be raised.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Yet that is exactly what you are doing. Your fear of the possible, and unproven, negative consequences of not doing something have you calling for us to do the same thing again. What makes you think the politicians are going to do anything about the problem after they raise the ceiling? Do you have some reason to trust them that I am unaware of?

We need to change something, and the only way I see to accomplish that is to not do the same thing again.

If the United States does not de facto raise the debt ceiling, it will mean that roughly 9% of spending would come out of the economy, which would be the biggest decline in GDP since the Great Depression during the most severe economic crisis since the Great Depression. Inducing the worst economic contraction in generations during the worst economic crisis in generations is not intelligent policy, which is why the debt ceiling will be raised.

Trying to scare me again? Didn't I already tell you that would not work? Did you think I was kidding?

We need to do something, and we need to do it sooner rather than later. The last couple of times we had this problem the debt ceiling was raised and nothing happened except that we need to raise it again.

Also, I have a hard time believing that government spending actually helps the economy. I know you can line up hundreds of economists that will argue that it does, but I can line up just as many that it doesn't. The ones who believe that it does not help can point to the fact that every single recession we have ever had anywhere was made worse when a government tried to spend its way out of it. What exactly is it the other side points to? Theories are wonderful things, but we need to make the theories fit the facts, not the other way around.

Should we wait until the danger of defaulting on the debt reaches the point where we loose 20% of GDP? 50%? When do we draw the line? Why not draw it now?

 

[Londoner]

Where were you people when Reagan, who tripled Carter's spending and deficits, raised the debt ceiling twice?

Where were you people when Big Government Conservatism & George W Bush raised the debt ceiling?

If you don't raise the debt ceiling, the American government will have to default on it's current obligations -- including the ones which fund and protect our soldiers stationed around the world.

Morons.

(please stop listening to talk radio)

 

[Norman]

Where were you people when Reagan, who tripled Carter's spending and deficits, raised the debt ceiling twice?

Where were you people when Big Government Conservatism & George W Bush raised the debt ceiling?

If you don't raise the debt ceiling, the American government will have to default on it's current obligations -- including the ones which fund and protect our soldiers stationed around the world.

Morons.

(please stop listening to talk radio)

So, continue the ponzi scheme and default even worse... as if that made any more sense.

If you live beyond your means, you live beyond your means. At some point the reality is going to come, and better earlier than later.

And BTW Obama had pretty good speech on why to vote for the ceiling back in 2006. (I mean why not to vote for the increased ceiling).

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Where were you people when Reagan, who tripled Carter's spending and deficits, raised the debt ceiling twice?

Where were you people when Big Government Conservatism & George W Bush raised the debt ceiling?

If you don't raise the debt ceiling, the American government will have to default on it's current obligations -- including the ones which fund and protect our soldiers stationed around the world.

Morons.

(please stop listening to talk radio)

Let me see if I understand your point.

It was bad when a Republican wanted to do it, it is good now that a Democrat wants to do it, but it will be bad later when a Republican wants to do it. Did I miss anything?

I never listen to talk radio, and bad is always bad.