50 years later: has government dependency helped or hurt blacks?

[ClosedCaption]

And Affirmative Action is NOT "leveling the playing field", Closed. It is in fact tilting it the opposite way to try and make up for past slights. Let's be honest here...

What happens when you tilt a see saw that's leaning to one side? Does it go all the way or is there a moment there when it becomes balanced?

Unless you're saying that AA puts blacks in front of whites then your analogy fits. Except that white women use it more than blacks do sooooo

See saws by their very nature don't balance. If that's your analogy then you're reinforcing my point that Affirmative Action wasn't designed to "level" anything...it was designed to tilt it the other way...in essence making up for unfairness by being unfair.

You're going way too literal with see saws. What I'm saying is that Affirmative Action isn't made of steel and found on play grounds either

 

[Oldstyle]

The people voted for him, you're mad and pretending he was given the job by the supreme court like Bush.

Did the people vote for him because he was a proven commodity with the job skills needed to handle the ensuing position...or did then vote for him because our main stream media bent over backwards in not properly vetting him?

We elected a man based on a narrative about him that was in many ways what a liberally leaning press WANTED him to be...not who he actually was! Hope & Change? That's a platform? Yet the most vague platform in the history of American politics was given a wink and a nod by CNN, NBC, CBS and ABC. The very people who SHOULD have been holding this man's feet to the fire instead gave him a foot massage while they went after Hilary Clinton, Sarah Palin and John McCain.

I'm really not "mad", Closed. I found his entire rise to power and subsequent election to be fascinating to be quite honest with you. The fact that someone with almost no notable accomplishments in any of his chosen adult endeavors would rise out of obscurity to become President of the United States is amazing. I don't think you could sell it as a Hollywood script it so far fetched...yet it happened.

Oh I get it...You're using that machine that shows the motivations and reasoning behind millions of peoples choices.

That or you're assuming that to be true.

The people voted for him, no Affirmative Action was involved

I would argue that Affirmative Action played a huge part in Barack Obama being where he is today. He doesn't get into Columbia without it. He doesn't get into Harvard Law School without it. He doesn't become President of the Harvard Law Review without it. He doesn't get a job at a prestigious Chicago law firm without it. He doesn't get a position teaching at the University of Chicago without it. He doesn't become a State Senator or a US Senator without it. Barack Obama truly IS the first Affirmative Action President.

 

[Asclepias]

One has only to look at the state of blacks in the US today to quickly realize that something has gone awry with King's notion of "doing something special" for them to make up for slavery and discrimination. It's one of those things that sounds so good in theory (like income redistribution) but never works in practice.

You've got generations of blacks that have been trapped by welfare handouts from politicians that gave lip service to equal justice and opportunity but really used the black vote to consolidate political power. You've got a President who sits in the Oval Office after short stints as both a US Senator and an Illinois State Senator in which he really did nothing to prove an understanding of the legislative process...a President who got to where he is BECAUSE of the color of his skin and not because of outstanding accomplishments as a lawyer...a college instructor...or as a legislator. THAT unfortunately is the legacy of Affirmative Action at the moment...people promoted because of their pigmentation rather than the content of their character.

The people voted for him, you're mad and pretending he was given the job by the supreme court like Bush.

Did the people vote for him because he was a proven commodity with the job skills needed to handle the ensuing position...or did then vote for him because our main stream media bent over backwards in not properly vetting him?

We elected a man based on a narrative about him that was in many ways what a liberally leaning press WANTED him to be...not who he actually was! Hope & Change? That's a platform? Yet the most vague platform in the history of American politics was given a wink and a nod by CNN, NBC, CBS and ABC. The very people who SHOULD have been holding this man's feet to the fire instead gave him a foot massage while they went after Hilary Clinton, Sarah Palin and John McCain.

I'm really not "mad", Closed. I found his entire rise to power and subsequent election to be fascinating to be quite honest with you. The fact that someone with almost no notable accomplishments in any of his chosen adult endeavors would rise out of obscurity to become President of the United States is amazing. I don't think you could sell it as a Hollywood script it so far fetched...yet it happened.

I agree somewhat. Not only was he voted for once but twice. Hope and change is what this nation was built on. If the mailman can get enough signatures to get on the ballet and the public votes for them then they too can be POTUS. Nothing wrong with that if the people want it. Our country was floundering and needed this moment to grow. the biggest problem people have is the lack of vision. They can only see what is in front of them. This is for a better future and present. Besides who can claim to be ready to be the POTUS besides a 1rst term POTUS? I hope you dont think GW Bush was "qualified"?

 

[Oldstyle]

The people voted for him, you're mad and pretending he was given the job by the supreme court like Bush.

Did the people vote for him because he was a proven commodity with the job skills needed to handle the ensuing position...or did then vote for him because our main stream media bent over backwards in not properly vetting him?

We elected a man based on a narrative about him that was in many ways what a liberally leaning press WANTED him to be...not who he actually was! Hope & Change? That's a platform? Yet the most vague platform in the history of American politics was given a wink and a nod by CNN, NBC, CBS and ABC. The very people who SHOULD have been holding this man's feet to the fire instead gave him a foot massage while they went after Hilary Clinton, Sarah Palin and John McCain.

I'm really not "mad", Closed. I found his entire rise to power and subsequent election to be fascinating to be quite honest with you. The fact that someone with almost no notable accomplishments in any of his chosen adult endeavors would rise out of obscurity to become President of the United States is amazing. I don't think you could sell it as a Hollywood script it so far fetched...yet it happened.

I agree somewhat. Not only was he voted for once but twice. Hope and change is what this nation was built on. If the mailman can get enough signatures to get on the ballet and the public votes for them then they too can be POTUS. Nothing wrong with that if the people want it. Our country was floundering and needed this moment to grow. the biggest problem people have is the lack of vision. They can only see what is in front of them. This is for a better future and present. Besides who can claim to be ready to be the POTUS besides a 1rst term POTUS? I hope you dont think GW Bush was "qualified"?

Compared to Barack Obama? W. was far more qualified, Asc...he was from a political family and grew up immersed in politics. He was a two term governor of one of the country's largest states which means he had to submit and operate a government under a budget. I'm sorry but Barack Obama had nothing even close to what W. had walking in the door.

 

[Oldstyle]

And this country was NOT built on Hope and Change. It was built on the notion that this was a unique place where a person could go as far as his or her ambition and hard work would take them. We didn't have a nobility class. We didn't have a King. We were a country of laws and of opportunity.

 

[DailyPolitrix.]

MLK and Malcolm X weren't for wellfare state ism. Both were advocates of local gov and upward mobility. Non intervention in foreign countries.

So no the dream has been spat upon especially by the political establishment.


and here is a gem for the board.
Coretta Scott King in 1991: Hold Employers Accountable for Hiring Illegal Aliens

 

[Lonestar_logic]

50 years ago Martin Luther King shared his dream of a nation where black and whites would seamlessly interweave in making a larger and better American fabric; where skin color was irrelevant.

That is perfectly in line with the American ideal: come here with an idea, with a talent, with a skill, with a mission and nurture it and tend to it until it blossoms.

Instead we heard yesterday blacks need more government programs and support

Was MLK's vision the path that's been followed, or is that the road not taken?

Hurt!

 

[Oldstyle]

What happens when you tilt a see saw that's leaning to one side? Does it go all the way or is there a moment there when it becomes balanced?

Unless you're saying that AA puts blacks in front of whites then your analogy fits. Except that white women use it more than blacks do sooooo

See saws by their very nature don't balance. If that's your analogy then you're reinforcing my point that Affirmative Action wasn't designed to "level" anything...it was designed to tilt it the other way...in essence making up for unfairness by being unfair.

You're going way too literal with see saws. What I'm saying is that Affirmative Action isn't made of steel and found on play grounds either

LOL...dude, the see saw analogy was YOURS not mine.

 

[OohPooPahDoo]

Government dependancy certainly helps blacks stay poor and at the bottom of the social latter so to speak

Poor people have too much money, that's why they are poor.

Good reasoning!

 

[ScienceRocks]

Government dependancy certainly helps blacks stay poor and at the bottom of the social latter so to speak

Poor people have too much money, that's why they are poor.

Good reasoning!

They need more education and a system that allows them to get into a job....

This should be the goal.

 

[OohPooPahDoo]

Government dependancy certainly helps blacks stay poor and at the bottom of the social latter so to speak

Poor people have too much money, that's why they are poor.

Good reasoning!

They need more education and a system that allows them to get into a job....

This should be the goal.

Yes they need better access to education - we'll start by eliminating the Department of Education.

 

[Oldstyle]

Government dependancy certainly helps blacks stay poor and at the bottom of the social latter so to speak

Poor people have too much money, that's why they are poor.

Good reasoning!

Government handouts have sapped generations of Americans of self reliance and because of THAT they are trapped in poverty.

 

[Oldstyle]

Poor people have too much money, that's why they are poor.

Good reasoning!

They need more education and a system that allows them to get into a job....

This should be the goal.

Yes they need better access to education - we'll start by eliminating the Department of Education.

Education was always something handled on the local level. Now that's been co-opted by the Federal Government our kids learn less and less with each passing year. How is THAT a good thing for the poor? How does THAT help them get an education?

 

[Asclepias]

Did the people vote for him because he was a proven commodity with the job skills needed to handle the ensuing position...or did then vote for him because our main stream media bent over backwards in not properly vetting him?

We elected a man based on a narrative about him that was in many ways what a liberally leaning press WANTED him to be...not who he actually was! Hope & Change? That's a platform? Yet the most vague platform in the history of American politics was given a wink and a nod by CNN, NBC, CBS and ABC. The very people who SHOULD have been holding this man's feet to the fire instead gave him a foot massage while they went after Hilary Clinton, Sarah Palin and John McCain.

I'm really not "mad", Closed. I found his entire rise to power and subsequent election to be fascinating to be quite honest with you. The fact that someone with almost no notable accomplishments in any of his chosen adult endeavors would rise out of obscurity to become President of the United States is amazing. I don't think you could sell it as a Hollywood script it so far fetched...yet it happened.

I agree somewhat. Not only was he voted for once but twice. Hope and change is what this nation was built on. If the mailman can get enough signatures to get on the ballet and the public votes for them then they too can be POTUS. Nothing wrong with that if the people want it. Our country was floundering and needed this moment to grow. the biggest problem people have is the lack of vision. They can only see what is in front of them. This is for a better future and present. Besides who can claim to be ready to be the POTUS besides a 1rst term POTUS? I hope you dont think GW Bush was "qualified"?

Compared to Barack Obama? W. was far more qualified, Asc...he was from a political family and grew up immersed in politics. He was a two term governor of one of the country's largest states which means he had to submit and operate a government under a budget. I'm sorry but Barack Obama had nothing even close to what W. had walking in the door.

GW was not qualified to be governor of Texas either. He was a screw up that rode his dads coattails into office. He surrounded himself with capable people. The POTUS has surrounded himself with knowledge like any intelligent person would do that does not know everything. 1 person cant know everything.

 

[Pheonixops]

50 years ago Martin Luther King shared his dream of a nation where black and whites would seamlessly interweave in making a larger and better American fabric; where skin color was irrelevant.

That is perfectly in line with the American ideal: come here with an idea, with a talent, with a skill, with a mission and nurture it and tend to it until it blossoms.

Instead we heard yesterday blacks need more government programs and support

Was MLK's vision the path that's been followed, or is that the road not taken?

Has government dependency over the past 50 years helped or hurt Whites who were and ARE recipients of it?

 

[Asclepias]

Government dependancy certainly helps blacks stay poor and at the bottom of the social latter so to speak

Poor people have too much money, that's why they are poor.

Good reasoning!

They need more education and a system that allows them to get into a job....

This should be the goal.

What and how should they eat in the meantime? Education is a lengthy process but I do agree education is vital.

 

[Pheonixops]

50 years ago Martin Luther King shared his dream of a nation where black and whites would seamlessly interweave in making a larger and better American fabric; where skin color was irrelevant.

That is perfectly in line with the American ideal: come here with an idea, with a talent, with a skill, with a mission and nurture it and tend to it until it blossoms.

Instead we heard yesterday blacks need more government programs and support

Was MLK's vision the path that's been followed, or is that the road not taken?

More whites than blacks are "dependent on government". Has that hurt whites?

I would make the point that being "dependent" on government ultimately hurts anyone regardless of color.

Excellent point. It's sad that some people with a bigoted agenda tend to focus solely on "the Blacks" when it comes to welfare and Affirmative Action.

 

[The Rabbi]

And Affirmative Action is NOT "leveling the playing field", Closed. It is in fact tilting it the opposite way to try and make up for past slights. Let's be honest here...

That depends on if it was flat and balanced to begin with. In this case opportunity was not balanced. AA's intent was to do just that.

Bullshit. A kid born in the last 20 years experiences no more discrimination than anyone else. The opposite in fact. There is no valid reason for continued affirmative action.

 

[Asclepias]

And Affirmative Action is NOT "leveling the playing field", Closed. It is in fact tilting it the opposite way to try and make up for past slights. Let's be honest here...

That depends on if it was flat and balanced to begin with. In this case opportunity was not balanced. AA's intent was to do just that.

Bullshit. A kid born in the last 20 years experiences no more discrimination than anyone else. The opposite in fact. There is no valid reason for continued affirmative action.

Why because you say so? What makes you think this is the truth?

 

[Pheonixops]

That's addressed as well:

I'll remind you again that King was basing his opinions on what he thought was good for blacks going by what he knew BEFORE Affirmative Action was adopted and before the concept of a "Nanny State" existed. It's hard for me to believe that someone as intelligent and pragmatic as Martin Luther King was, wouldn't be wincing as he surveyed the aftermath of fifty years of Affirmative Action and the welfare State. I think it's very likely that someone who believed in self-reliance, which King did...would see the inherent danger of depriving self-reliance to any group of people. To be quite blunt what he called for back then has caused as much harm to the black community as it has provided help. I think King would have seen that quite clearly.

I think its a matter of semantics. The thing you call "depriving self reliance" is the way you see it. The way I see it is leveling the playing field. MLK would've been for leveling the playing field.

Additionally, compare hundreds of years of racism, jim crow, unequal justice, discrimination etc to 50 years of AA. Its very hard to believe that you think that AA is the cause of all the problems and none of it stems from legalized racism and discrimination.

Well, one doesn't even have to read between the lines to see what some of these "folks" are implying. There are trying to state that "the Blacks" would be and were better off when they were being discriminated against and treated like second class citizens. As you can see on the graph below, their premise is full of SHIT. I wonder why they are trying to make a MINORITY of Black people seem like it's "the Blacks" in general?