Your solution to the ME crisis

[longknife]

I didn't live in the Middle East.

I did. And on both sides of the conflict.

To get back to what I said earlier - OF COURSE religion impacts everything that happens in the region. That was not my point.

My point was that any solution has to reflect the realities of life in 2013 on the streets of Magdal Shams, Metullah or Salt. It can not only be something that is written in the Bible, Koran or Talmud. It is often very difficult for religious people to see beyond, for instance, the Koran as being the best guide as to peace settlements, but we know that in reality, a workable settlement is unlikely to look like anything in any of the great books.

As long as the political/religious leaders in the region keep their youth in ignorance of anything beyond the Koran, there will never be a "settlement" or end to the conflicts!!!

 

[Saigon]

One point. Instead of making it the country of Palestine, why not make it part of Syria and Jordan. Allowing those trapped in the area to move to more Peaceful regions if they choose. In which case Syria and Jordan would be responsible for security in these areas.

.

Yeah....I just can't see that as a viable option.

Palestinians do not consider themselves Syrian or Jordanian, and visa versa. I think it would create more friction.

btw. It's been nice talking to you - I think I owe you some positive rep points!!

 

[eagle1462010]

You are quoting Census numbers, aka HISTORY, and limit it to 1850. Selective History that benefits your opinion. Yet it is in the early 1900's that the region wanted the Jews to move there to build and cultivate the land. They were asked to come. They bought land from the OTTAMAN EMPIRE, aka Turkey. Who later fought with Germany and lost.

My point was not about the entire region - only about the West Bank. Israel has historical links to only one or two cities in that area.

Israel's claim to areas like Galilee and the central coast is cast iron in my book.

why are you against Israel on this thread as you defend the Palestinians claim to lands?

I'm definitely pro-Israel, but my way of thinking, being pro-Israeli also means pro-Palestinian.The ultimate success of each society is now dependant on the success of the other.

I'll back off then a bit. Because you are pro Israel. I may have misunderstood your posts.

The West Bank was taken in the 6 day War as was the Sinai. Israel decided to give it back and let the people stay there, even though they were leaving after the defeat. I actually believe that was a blunder by Israel not to keep the land. As throughout history the winners of War VERY SELDOM EVER GIVE BACK LAND taken in the conflict.

 

[eagle1462010]

One point. Instead of making it the country of Palestine, why not make it part of Syria and Jordan. Allowing those trapped in the area to move to more Peaceful regions if they choose. In which case Syria and Jordan would be responsible for security in these areas.

.

Yeah....I just can't see that as a viable option.

Palestinians do not consider themselves Syrian or Jordanian, and visa versa. I think it would create more friction.

btw. It's been nice talking to you - I think I owe you some positive rep points!!

Which is a shame as Jordan used to part of Palestine, aka Trans-Jordan.

 

[RKMBrown]

I'd like to hear your solution to the ME crisis, so present your peace plan with as much or as little detail as you like.

I support a two-state solution, with a Palestinian state based on contigious borders including Gaza and around 85% of the West Bank. Israel would then cede an equivalent area of land bordering Gaza and the south of the West Bank close to the northern shore of the Dead Sea. Palestine would concede the Gilo area and land around East Jerusalem, but would maintain control over East Jerusalem proper.

Israel would accept limited right of return (e.g. 15,000 people per year for 10 years), but would be able to deport anyone committed to terror-related crimes. All migrants would need to swear allegiance to Israel, and could not be members of any terrorist organisation.

Palestine would recognise Israel, and would accept international inspectors at all borders and airports for 10 years.

Jerusalem would be divided east of Damascus Gate, with a section of wall extending north from the Old City. The Old City would be contolled by international peacekeepers.

All neighbouring states would recognise Israel and commit to opening land borders.

My solution is simple. Leave. It's not our job to police the world.

 

[Hossfly]

Solution to the ME crisis? If it were up to me? The catalyst of the current problem is the so called territory of "Palestine". The Arab League created the crisis in 1948 and still use Palestine in their quest to destroy Israel. Get rid of the two cancers, Gaza and West Bank and the crisis will dry up. Who would do anything about it. The Arabs have been licking their collective wounds since 1948. None of them want another ass whuppin'.

 

[Saigon]

Hossfly -

Getting rid of the West Bank is no more feasible than getting rid of Kansas. It exists. People live there.

The Arabs have been licking their collective wounds since 1948. None of them want another ass whuppin'.

I agree - and those people will take a settlement because they know they cannot win a war. I've been told this many times in Beirut & Amman.

Unfortunately, Israel has tended to alienate those people instead of work with them.

 

[Hossfly]

Hossfly -

Getting rid of the West Bank is no more feasible than getting rid of Kansas. It exists. People live there.

The Arabs have been licking their collective wounds since 1948. None of them want another ass whuppin'.

I agree - and those people will take a settlement because they know they cannot win a war. I've been told this many times in Beirut & Amman.

Unfortunately, Israel has tended to alienate those people instead of work with them.

Re: West Bank Build settlements til they run out of land. Then Israel will be the majority and run things.

 

[Saigon]

Hossfly -

Your solution is exactly what began the Intifadah. Continuing that policy can only mean a continuation of violence resistance, and at terrible cost to Israel's reputation abroad.

 

[Hossfly]

Hossfly -

Your solution is exactly what began the Intifadah. Continuing that policy can only mean a continuation of violence resistance, and at terrible cost to Israel's reputation abroad.

It's time to stop pussyfooting around and end the game.

 

[P F Tinmore]

One point. Instead of making it the country of Palestine, why not make it part of Syria and Jordan. Allowing those trapped in the area to move to more Peaceful regions if they choose. In which case Syria and Jordan would be responsible for security in these areas.

.

Yeah....I just can't see that as a viable option.

Palestinians do not consider themselves Syrian or Jordanian, and visa versa. I think it would create more friction.

btw. It's been nice talking to you - I think I owe you some positive rep points!!

Which is a shame as Jordan used to part of Palestine, aka Trans-Jordan.

Few if any Palestinians ever lived in the territory that became Jordan.

 

[proudveteran06]

Hossfly -

Getting rid of the West Bank is no more feasible than getting rid of Kansas. It exists. People live there.

The Arabs have been licking their collective wounds since 1948. None of them want another ass whuppin'.

I agree - and those people will take a settlement because they know they cannot win a war. I've been told this many times in Beirut & Amman.

Unfortunately, Israel has tended to alienate those people instead of work with them.

Abbas Confirms Olmert Gave an Insanely Generous Offer | Jewlicious THE Jewish Blog









Abbas Confirms Olmert Gave an Insanely Generous Offer

Posted by themiddle on 5/29/2009 in Jewlicious · 59 Comments












The Washington Post reports that Mahmoud Abbas, the man who is president of the Palestinian National Authority and who once wrote a doctoral dissertation denying the Holocaust, received an exceedingly generous peace offer from Ehud Olmert, Israel’s previous PM, last year.

He passed.

Why did he pass on a chance for peace and for a Palestinian state?

Nonchalantly he answered that the gaps remained too wide.

What did Olmert offer?

97% 95.5% of the West Bank

Right of Return for Palestinian refugees

East Jerusalem though it’s unclear in what form

So what happened?

Abbas says the gaps were too wide. Saeb Erakat explained what gaps were too wide as reported on Al Jazeera and then on Jerusalem Post:


Erekat acknowledged that Israel had presented the Palestinians with a proposal in November 2008 which “talked about Jerusalem and almost 100% of the West Bank,” and he noted that Mahmoud Abbas could have accepted this proposal, just as the “Palestinian negotiators could have given in in 1994, 1998, or 2000.” Intriguingly, Erekat then proceeded to reveal what he considered a “secret”: he explained why the Palestinians had rejected the recent proposals just like the ones offered in 2000/01 during the negotiations in Camp David and Taba. What prevented an agreement every time – at least according to Erekat – was the Israeli request that the Palestinians acknowledge the central importance of the Temple Mount for Jewish history and religion.

It is worthwhile to quote Erekat’s description of a scene at Camp David, when Bill Clinton tried to convince Yassir Arafat to come to an agreement: “You will be the first president of a Palestinian state, within the 1967 borders – give or take, considering the land swap – and East Jerusalem will be the capital of the Palestinian state, but we want you, as a religious man, to acknowledge that the Temple of Solomon is located underneath the Haram Al-Sharif.” According to Erekat, Arafat responded “defiantly” to Clinton: “I will not be a traitor. Someone will come to liberate it after 10, 50, or 100 years. Jerusalem will be nothing but the capital of the Palestinian state, and there is nothing underneath or above the Haram Al-Sharif except for Allah.”

Okay, so when Abbas says cryptically that “the gaps were too wide,” what he means is that if the Palestinians don’t get to be sovereign over the Temple Mount, they are not going to sign a deal.

This is called “lying.”

Lying, for those of you who forget, is what a person does when he denies a Jewish connection to the Land of Israel. Lying is what a person does when he claims the Jews do not have historical, religious or cultural ties to Jerusalem or to the Land of Israel. Of course, these ideas can be found in the Hamas and Fatah charters, and of course they are lies.

Where is the lie here? Well, there is more than one but the big one is that the Palestinians seek a two state solution.

If they sought one, they would already have their own state. As both Camp David and Taba already showed, and now we have the Olmert offer to prove that the first two were not accidental rejections of Israel’s offers, the Palestinians are willing to forego peace in order to make impossible demands. One of the impossible demands is the Right of Return. Yet it appears that Olmert actually signed off on that. My guess is that he offered something similar to the Taba offer Israel made where original refugees (’1948 refugees”) are permitted to return to Israel.


Obviously the above is not the entire post. I keep asking; What " offers, counter proposals have the Palestinians made in " negotiating?" It's a fair question


Definition of NEGOTIATE
intransitive verb
: to confer with another so as to arrive at the settlement of some matter
transitive verb
1
a: to deal with (some matter or affair that requires ability for its successful handling) : manage


See below then tell us what the Palestinians have " offered"


b: to arrange for or bring about through conference, discussion, and compromise <negotiate a treaty>

 

[Saigon]

P. Veteran -

There has been quite a lot of talk about this offer, but very little detail. Apparently is known as the napkin proposal, because the offer amounted to a drawing on a napkin.

I have no idea why Abbas was not more enthusedand likely he was foolish not to show more interest, but I'd want to see more facts before I could really say the offer was "insanely generous".

 

[Hossfly]

Yeah....I just can't see that as a viable option.

Palestinians do not consider themselves Syrian or Jordanian, and visa versa. I think it would create more friction.

btw. It's been nice talking to you - I think I owe you some positive rep points!!

Which is a shame as Jordan used to part of Palestine, aka Trans-Jordan.

Few if any Palestinians ever lived in the territory that became Jordan.

Were you actually there, Tinnie, to see who was living there? Can you tell us why the Palestinians there acted up so that the former King of Jordan had to resort to that "Black September" incident?

 

[P F Tinmore]

P. Veteran -

There has been quite a lot of talk about this offer, but very little detail. Apparently is known as the napkin proposal, because the offer amounted to a drawing on a napkin.

I have no idea why Abbas was not more enthusedand likely he was foolish not to show more interest, but I'd want to see more facts before I could really say the offer was "insanely generous".

Of course the propagandists never mention the clunkers. Only a small token number of refugees could return. Israel would control the water. All people and goods, entering or leaving, would have to go through Israel. Israel would control travel, tourism, and trade. Israel could shut the whole place down whenever it wanted like it did to Gaza.

The offer really sucked.

 

[SherriMunnerlyn]

I did. And on both sides of the conflict.

To get back to what I said earlier - OF COURSE religion impacts everything that happens in the region. That was not my point.

My point was that any solution has to reflect the realities of life in 2013 on the streets of Magdal Shams, Metullah or Salt. It can not only be something that is written in the Bible, Koran or Talmud. It is often very difficult for religious people to see beyond, for instance, the Koran as being the best guide as to peace settlements, but we know that in reality, a workable settlement is unlikely to look like anything in any of the great books.

Will Hamas, Hezballah, the Muslim Brotherhood, and etc.... EVER EXCEPT THE EXISTENCE OF ISRAEL?

T
Unfortunately, no. They won't. But after the first battle in which Israels neighbors, including Hamas, Hezbollah, and Muslim brotherhood are driven out ( or perish ) there will be a 7 yr peace treaty made with Israel and half way through that period the treaty will be broken. Then the Russian led Islamic Army will march to the mountains of Jerusalem to make war against Israel.

Saigon has a great deal of knowledge about the middle east. I have no such abilities nor can I claim such knowledge. I only shared what the Hebrew prophets have to say about it. I have nothing else to add. Interesting discussion. Thank you.

Zionists like you are so funny with your Satanic prophecies and all, thanks for the entertainment. For a Christian like me who believes in Jesus teachings, I know it is the meek who shall inherit the land. And I frankly see the conflict as a test of God for all the inhabitants of the land, with opportunities and choices to make, they each choose how they respond every single day to injustices they live with and in the midst of. And their choices effect their eternities. And that is what matters, individuals and their choices, not what government has power. Governments are controlled by Satan, all of them.

 

[Hossfly]

Will Hamas, Hezballah, the Muslim Brotherhood, and etc.... EVER EXCEPT THE EXISTENCE OF ISRAEL?

T
Unfortunately, no. They won't. But after the first battle in which Israels neighbors, including Hamas, Hezbollah, and Muslim brotherhood are driven out ( or perish ) there will be a 7 yr peace treaty made with Israel and half way through that period the treaty will be broken. Then the Russian led Islamic Army will march to the mountains of Jerusalem to make war against Israel.

Saigon has a great deal of knowledge about the middle east. I have no such abilities nor can I claim such knowledge. I only shared what the Hebrew prophets have to say about it. I have nothing else to add. Interesting discussion. Thank you.

Zionists like you are so funny with your Satanic prophecies and all, thanks for the entertainment. For a Christian like me who believes in Jesus teachings, I know it is the meek who shall inherit the land. And I frankly see the conflict as a test of God for all the inhabitants of the land, with opportunities and choices to make, they each choose how they respond every single day to injustices they live with and in the midst of. And their choices effect their eternities. And that is what matters, individuals and their choices, not what government has power. Governments are controlled by Satan, all of them.

Funny, I have never heard a Christian minister who did not preach about the prophecies and I was born and raised in a preacher's family. I have cousins who are preachers and they preach about the prophecies. Ever heard of Billy Sunday, Billy Graham, Oral Roberts, etc, etc? You shouldn't smoke that Mexican parsley.

 

[Book of Jeremiah]

Will Hamas, Hezballah, the Muslim Brotherhood, and etc.... EVER EXCEPT THE EXISTENCE OF ISRAEL?

T
Unfortunately, no. They won't. But after the first battle in which Israels neighbors, including Hamas, Hezbollah, and Muslim brotherhood are driven out ( or perish ) there will be a 7 yr peace treaty made with Israel and half way through that period the treaty will be broken. Then the Russian led Islamic Army will march to the mountains of Jerusalem to make war against Israel.

Saigon has a great deal of knowledge about the middle east. I have no such abilities nor can I claim such knowledge. I only shared what the Hebrew prophets have to say about it. I have nothing else to add. Interesting discussion. Thank you.

Zionists like you are so funny with your Satanic prophecies and all, thanks for the entertainment. For a Christian like me who believes in Jesus teachings, I know it is the meek who shall inherit the land. And I frankly see the conflict as a test of God for all the inhabitants of the land, with opportunities and choices to make, they each choose how they respond every single day to injustices they live with and in the midst of. And their choices effect their eternities. And that is what matters, individuals and their choices, not what government has power. Governments are controlled by Satan, all of them.

Sherri, as you claim you are a bible believing Christian I am going to give you some sound advice. You need to stop referring to the Hebrew prophets and the Old Testament as satanists and Satanism. You are grieving me to the core here. I don't know what your hangup on Satan is about but it has nothing to do with the Hebrew Prophets or the Torah so please for the love of G-d leave it alone.

-Jeri

 

[Hossfly]

P. Veteran -

There has been quite a lot of talk about this offer, but very little detail. Apparently is known as the napkin proposal, because the offer amounted to a drawing on a napkin.

I have no idea why Abbas was not more enthusedand likely he was foolish not to show more interest, but I'd want to see more facts before I could really say the offer was "insanely generous".

Of course the propagandists never mention the clunkers. Only a small token number of refugees could return. Israel would control the water. All people and goods, entering or leaving, would have to go through Israel. Israel would control travel, tourism, and trade. Israel could shut the whole place down whenever it wanted like it did to Gaza.

The offer really sucked.

Of course Israel would have to be administrators because the Palestinians can't seem to control the actions of their residents. Here's an example:


Nazi flag flies south of Jerusalem - Israel Today | Israel News

 

[SherriMunnerlyn]

T
Unfortunately, no. They won't. But after the first battle in which Israels neighbors, including Hamas, Hezbollah, and Muslim brotherhood are driven out ( or perish ) there will be a 7 yr peace treaty made with Israel and half way through that period the treaty will be broken. Then the Russian led Islamic Army will march to the mountains of Jerusalem to make war against Israel.

Saigon has a great deal of knowledge about the middle east. I have no such abilities nor can I claim such knowledge. I only shared what the Hebrew prophets have to say about it. I have nothing else to add. Interesting discussion. Thank you.

Zionists like you are so funny with your Satanic prophecies and all, thanks for the entertainment. For a Christian like me who believes in Jesus teachings, I know it is the meek who shall inherit the land. And I frankly see the conflict as a test of God forward all the inhabitants of the land, with opportunities and choices to make, they each choose how they respond every single day to injustices they live with and in the midst of. And their choices effect their eternities. And that is what matters, individuals and their choices, not what government has power. Governments are controlled by Satan, all of them.

Sherri, as you claim you are a bible believing Christian I am going to give you some sound advice. You need to stop referring to the Hebrew prophets and the Old Testament as satanists and Satanism. You are grieving me to the core here. I don't know what your hangup on Satan is about but it has nothing to do with the Hebrew Prophets or the Torah so please for the love of G-d leave it alone.

-Jeri

I did not call the Prophets Satanic, learn to read. And stop putting your filthy words into my mouth. My opinion is that the best way to solve the conflict is by the people following the teachings of Jesus, for the people to turn from violence and hate. Not to follow the teachings of Zionists.