Your Government Owes You a Job

Sure they did...I saw many in my community, didn't you?

The problem was there were not as many shovel ready projects meeting the criteria and Red States that just kept the money

How Not to Revive an Economy
By MICHAEL GRABELL
Published: February 11, 2012 120 Comments

THE polarized rhetoric of the 2012 election cycle presents voters with a false choice of whether the government can create jobs or should just get out of the way. The real debate should be about which policies work and which don’t.

Erik S. Lesser for The New York Times

I spent three years reporting on the $840 billion stimulus plan that the Obama administration pushed through Congress in 2009. My conclusion: government can create jobs — it just doesn’t often do it well.

The stimulus — a historic package of tax cuts, safety-net spending, infrastructure projects and green-energy investments — certainly did a lot of good. As the economists Alan S. Blinder and Mark Zandi have noted, it’s one of the key reasons the unemployment rate isn’t in double digits now.

But the stimulus ultimately failed to bring about a strong, sustainable recovery. Money was spread far and wide rather than dedicated to programs with the most bang for the buck. “Shovel-ready” projects, those that would put people to work right away, took too long to break ground. Investments in worthwhile long-term projects, on the other hand, were often rushed to meet arbitrary deadlines, and the resulting shoddy outcomes tarnished the projects’ image.

After trumpeting shovel-ready projects as the bedrock of his stimulus plan, President Obama admitted famously that “there’s no such thing.” But there were, and are, shovel-ready projects. The administration just needed to find them. Case in point: the nuclear cleanup at the Savannah River Site in Aiken, S.C., which received $1.6 billion in stimulus money. As soon as the money arrived in the summer of 2009, the retired cold war nuclear plant hired thousands of workers to decommission reactors, install pumps in the liquid waste tanks and ship barrels of solid waste to a salt formation in the Chihuahuan Desert. Workers from out of town filled up nearly all of the area’s apartments, hotels and restaurants. The county’s unemployment dropped to 8.5 percent from 10.2 percent in a matter of months.

Why did it work? Because the government could immediately send billions of dollars to contractors who were already in place for a project that had well-established plans.

The problem with most of the projects was that the Obama administration and Congress had defined “shovel ready” too broadly. The original plan called for putting “shovels in the ground” within 90 days. But when the rules were written, states ended up with 120 days to have their road projects “approved.” It often took six more months to a year before most of the projects were under construction.

Weatherization, for example, was billed as the low-hanging fruit of the clean-energy movement. But states are still sitting on roughly a billion dollars in unused grant money because of a tortured bureaucracy, in which the federal government paid the states, which paid local nonprofits, which then hired the contractors.

Neither states nor nonprofit groups were prepared to handle 20 to 30 times more money than usual. And federal officials brought ready projects to a standstill in the first year by applying new rules regarding prevailing wages.

As a result, the stimulus didn’t provide enough oomph in the first year to overcome the effects of the European debt crisis and rising gas prices in 2010.

The stimulus effort should have contained more programs like Cash for Clunkers, which pulled car sales forward, emptied dealership lots and prompted auto plants to bring back thousands of employees.

“We’re trying to figure out, ‘Man, how did that thing just blow up the way it did?’ ” President Obama later said. “Essentially, all the auto companies did the marketing. They did the advertising in a way the government just can’t do it and, frankly, even if we did it, people wouldn’t listen.”

The stimulus also could have been more powerful if the administration had pursued a temporary jobs program similar to the Works Progress Administration, which directly employed eight million people during the Depression.

As it was, states could create temporary jobs programs through a $5 billion emergency welfare fund. Not enough states took advantage of it, but those that did saw real results. Fresno County, Calif., where unemployment was 18 percent, found jobs for 2,000 people who were out of work or underemployed.

It also helps to avoid losing jobs in the first place. The promise of $50 billion in state fiscal relief prompted school districts to forgo layoffs. By early 2010, the stimulus money had saved the equivalent of nearly 300,000 full-time teachers and support staff.

Even $50 billion, though, wasn’t enough to plug the budget gaps. The administration should have shifted more money there, and it could have tried to prime a similar effort in the private sector.

Germany’s “work-sharing” program — in which companies reduce hours rather than lay people off, with the government providing partial unemployment benefits to make up for lost wages — has helped keep its unemployment rate below 8 percent since 2008. It also will let companies ramp up quickly when the economy recovers.

NO matter who wins in November, the appetite for a big fiscal stimulus package won’t be there. So what can be done about the 5.5 million Americans who’ve been unemployed for six months or more — a group that includes older workers whom Rutgers labor experts have called “the involuntarily retired”?

A temporary jobs program similar to the one tried in the stimulus, but aimed at the long-term unemployed, could help these people get the skills they need to return to work.

Shovel-ready isn’t as important as it was in early 2009 because we’re not scrambling to stanch economic bleeding. But the lingering malaise gives us an opportunity to make smart decisions about our infrastructure.

The American Society of Civil Engineers has given the nation’s infrastructure an overall grade of D. Fixing deficient bridges, tunnels, dams and sewage-treatment plants, not to mention expanding high-speed Internet and modernizing the electricity grid, should be clear priorities.

Typically, the government spreads money like peanut butter, so that no one can do anything significant and every program is starved. Separate agencies oversee highways, aviation, transit and railroads. The 2009 stimulus introduced a better model: a competitive, $1.5 billion grant program for transportation, called Tiger, that forced local leaders to think regionally about strategies that combined multiple modes of transportation. The money untangled freight rail lines in Chicago, financed streetcars in Dallas and rapid buses in the Washington area, and helped Philadelphia build a 128-mile network of bike and walking trails. It should be a model for future transportation grant programs.

Investments in solar and wind energy, electric cars and high-speed rail make sense, but to have an impact there must be certainty around them. The fluctuations in America’s energy policy, the absence of a trust fund for high-speed rail as there is for highways and aviation, and the clear lack of a plan to tackle the deficit hinder the recovery instead of helping it.

In short, there are areas where the government should get out of the away, by clearing bureaucratic hurdles. But it’s equally important for politics to get out of the way of smart government policies that can help the private sector create jobs.

Michael Grabell is a reporter at ProPublica and the author of “Money Well Spent? The Truth Behind the Trillion-Dollar Stimulus, the Biggest Economic Recovery Plan in History.”
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/02/12/opinion/sunday/how-the-stimulus-fell-short.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

Funny the New York Times views it as a dismal failure, but it is your coloring book, color it any way you like ,,,,

MICHAEL GRABELL said it was a failure not the New York Times

Stimulus was not intended to fix a crashed economy by itself, only stimulate the economy into reversing its crash. Stimulus was merely priming the economic pump.

Could the money have been better spent? Of course
Cutting taxes arbitrarily and dumping money on the States was wasteful

Did it work? Like it or not, it did stimulate the economy. The Government dumped $800 billion into an economy that everyone in the private sector had abandoned

Within weeks of the stimulus passing the unemployment trend reversed as did the collapsing Stock Market. GDP went positive within two quarters
BULL SHIT

This democrat stimulus plan was designed to pick winners and losers.
 
Funding? The same way we have always funded infrastructure improvement. Municipal Bonds. We used to issue bonds that we paid 4-8% interest on. Today we would pay less than 2%

Where are we going to get the workers? We have millions of construction workers who are underemployed or unemployed. We also have ex military and high school students looking for entry level jobs. It is a buyers market for labor right now

Government cannot just float bonds like they were nothing. Bond issues are obligations which have to be satisfied long before they mature. So satisfy the debt, taxes must be increased to pay the debt. The funding generated by the purchase of the bonds takes a much longer time.
Also, in some state constitutions ( NC 's is one example) there are provisions which permit bond money to be used anywhere the government sees fit. That is one reason why NC is not a binding referendum state. Oh, we have these votes, but they are non-binding. So for example if there is a road bond vote which passed, the state can take any amount of that money for "more pressing needs".
Now in states such as NJ TX and CA all bond issues are required by law to go to a referendum vote. 50% plus one is the decider. Essentially, bond votes approved are the electorate voting to give itself a tax increase. In this current anti tax and anti government spending climate, how do you think that is going to work out?
No...This would have to be funded by the most objectionable method. A straight tax increase. Something politicians with any aspirations of reelection would be unwilling to support.
If you want your stuff, you'll just have to find a way to get it from the current revenue sources

Its a case of pay me now or pay me later

Better to pay now while salaries and interest rates are low

How come none of you libs ask where the taxpayers are supposed to get the money for your schemes?
 
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/02/12/opinion/sunday/how-the-stimulus-fell-short.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

Funny the New York Times views it as a dismal failure, but it is your coloring book, color it any way you like ,,,,

MICHAEL GRABELL said it was a failure not the New York Times

Stimulus was not intended to fix a crashed economy by itself, only stimulate the economy into reversing its crash. Stimulus was merely priming the economic pump.

Could the money have been better spent? Of course
Cutting taxes arbitrarily and dumping money on the States was wasteful

Did it work? Like it or not, it did stimulate the economy. The Government dumped $800 billion into an economy that everyone in the private sector had abandoned

Within weeks of the stimulus passing the unemployment trend reversed as did the collapsing Stock Market. GDP went positive within two quarters
BULL SHIT

This democrat stimulus plan was designed to pick winners and losers.

The American Society of Civil Engineers has given the nation’s infrastructure an overall grade of D. Fixing deficient bridges, tunnels, dams and sewage-treatment plants, not to mention expanding high-speed Internet and modernizing the electricity grid, should be clear priorities.

Typically, the government spreads money like peanut butter, so that no one can do anything significant and every program is starved. Separate agencies oversee highways, aviation, transit and railroads. The 2009 stimulus introduced a better model: a competitive, $1.5 billion grant program for transportation, called Tiger, that forced local leaders to think regionally about strategies that combined multiple modes of transportation. The money untangled freight rail lines in Chicago, financed streetcars in Dallas and rapid buses in the Washington area, and helped Philadelphia build a 128-mile network of bike and walking trails. It should be a model for future transportation grant programs.

Investments in solar and wind energy, electric cars and high-speed rail make sense, but to have an impact there must be certainty around them. The fluctuations in America’s energy policy, the absence of a trust fund for high-speed rail as there is for highways and aviation, and the clear lack of a plan to tackle the deficit hinder the recovery instead of helping it.

In short, there are areas where the government should get out of the away, by clearing bureaucratic hurdles. But it’s equally important for politics to get out of the way of smart government policies that can help the private sector create jobs

Isn't this what I have been advocating on this thread?
 
Government cannot just float bonds like they were nothing. Bond issues are obligations which have to be satisfied long before they mature. So satisfy the debt, taxes must be increased to pay the debt. The funding generated by the purchase of the bonds takes a much longer time.
Also, in some state constitutions ( NC 's is one example) there are provisions which permit bond money to be used anywhere the government sees fit. That is one reason why NC is not a binding referendum state. Oh, we have these votes, but they are non-binding. So for example if there is a road bond vote which passed, the state can take any amount of that money for "more pressing needs".
Now in states such as NJ TX and CA all bond issues are required by law to go to a referendum vote. 50% plus one is the decider. Essentially, bond votes approved are the electorate voting to give itself a tax increase. In this current anti tax and anti government spending climate, how do you think that is going to work out?
No...This would have to be funded by the most objectionable method. A straight tax increase. Something politicians with any aspirations of reelection would be unwilling to support.
If you want your stuff, you'll just have to find a way to get it from the current revenue sources

Its a case of pay me now or pay me later

Better to pay now while salaries and interest rates are low

How come none of you libs ask where the taxpayers are supposed to get the money for your schemes?

Like I said...its pay me now or pay me later

We desperately need infrastructure investment

The American Society of Civil Engineers has given the nation’s infrastructure an overall grade of D. Fixing deficient bridges, tunnels, dams and sewage-treatment plants, not to mention expanding high-speed Internet and modernizing the electricity grid, should be clear priorities.

If you invest now, you will pay low interest rates and pay low salaries to construction workers eager to get back to work

If you wait until the economy has fully recovered, you will pay a higher interest rate and compete with private industry for construction workers
 
Sure they did...I saw many in my community, didn't you?

The problem was there were not as many shovel ready projects meeting the criteria and Red States that just kept the money

How Not to Revive an Economy
By MICHAEL GRABELL
Published: February 11, 2012 120 Comments

THE polarized rhetoric of the 2012 election cycle presents voters with a false choice of whether the government can create jobs or should just get out of the way. The real debate should be about which policies work and which don’t.

Erik S. Lesser for The New York Times

I spent three years reporting on the $840 billion stimulus plan that the Obama administration pushed through Congress in 2009. My conclusion: government can create jobs — it just doesn’t often do it well.

The stimulus — a historic package of tax cuts, safety-net spending, infrastructure projects and green-energy investments — certainly did a lot of good. As the economists Alan S. Blinder and Mark Zandi have noted, it’s one of the key reasons the unemployment rate isn’t in double digits now.

But the stimulus ultimately failed to bring about a strong, sustainable recovery. Money was spread far and wide rather than dedicated to programs with the most bang for the buck. “Shovel-ready” projects, those that would put people to work right away, took too long to break ground. Investments in worthwhile long-term projects, on the other hand, were often rushed to meet arbitrary deadlines, and the resulting shoddy outcomes tarnished the projects’ image.

After trumpeting shovel-ready projects as the bedrock of his stimulus plan, President Obama admitted famously that “there’s no such thing.” But there were, and are, shovel-ready projects. The administration just needed to find them. Case in point: the nuclear cleanup at the Savannah River Site in Aiken, S.C., which received $1.6 billion in stimulus money. As soon as the money arrived in the summer of 2009, the retired cold war nuclear plant hired thousands of workers to decommission reactors, install pumps in the liquid waste tanks and ship barrels of solid waste to a salt formation in the Chihuahuan Desert. Workers from out of town filled up nearly all of the area’s apartments, hotels and restaurants. The county’s unemployment dropped to 8.5 percent from 10.2 percent in a matter of months.

Why did it work? Because the government could immediately send billions of dollars to contractors who were already in place for a project that had well-established plans.

The problem with most of the projects was that the Obama administration and Congress had defined “shovel ready” too broadly. The original plan called for putting “shovels in the ground” within 90 days. But when the rules were written, states ended up with 120 days to have their road projects “approved.” It often took six more months to a year before most of the projects were under construction.

Weatherization, for example, was billed as the low-hanging fruit of the clean-energy movement. But states are still sitting on roughly a billion dollars in unused grant money because of a tortured bureaucracy, in which the federal government paid the states, which paid local nonprofits, which then hired the contractors.

Neither states nor nonprofit groups were prepared to handle 20 to 30 times more money than usual. And federal officials brought ready projects to a standstill in the first year by applying new rules regarding prevailing wages.

As a result, the stimulus didn’t provide enough oomph in the first year to overcome the effects of the European debt crisis and rising gas prices in 2010.

The stimulus effort should have contained more programs like Cash for Clunkers, which pulled car sales forward, emptied dealership lots and prompted auto plants to bring back thousands of employees.

“We’re trying to figure out, ‘Man, how did that thing just blow up the way it did?’ ” President Obama later said. “Essentially, all the auto companies did the marketing. They did the advertising in a way the government just can’t do it and, frankly, even if we did it, people wouldn’t listen.”

The stimulus also could have been more powerful if the administration had pursued a temporary jobs program similar to the Works Progress Administration, which directly employed eight million people during the Depression.

As it was, states could create temporary jobs programs through a $5 billion emergency welfare fund. Not enough states took advantage of it, but those that did saw real results. Fresno County, Calif., where unemployment was 18 percent, found jobs for 2,000 people who were out of work or underemployed.

It also helps to avoid losing jobs in the first place. The promise of $50 billion in state fiscal relief prompted school districts to forgo layoffs. By early 2010, the stimulus money had saved the equivalent of nearly 300,000 full-time teachers and support staff.

Even $50 billion, though, wasn’t enough to plug the budget gaps. The administration should have shifted more money there, and it could have tried to prime a similar effort in the private sector.

Germany’s “work-sharing” program — in which companies reduce hours rather than lay people off, with the government providing partial unemployment benefits to make up for lost wages — has helped keep its unemployment rate below 8 percent since 2008. It also will let companies ramp up quickly when the economy recovers.

NO matter who wins in November, the appetite for a big fiscal stimulus package won’t be there. So what can be done about the 5.5 million Americans who’ve been unemployed for six months or more — a group that includes older workers whom Rutgers labor experts have called “the involuntarily retired”?

A temporary jobs program similar to the one tried in the stimulus, but aimed at the long-term unemployed, could help these people get the skills they need to return to work.

Shovel-ready isn’t as important as it was in early 2009 because we’re not scrambling to stanch economic bleeding. But the lingering malaise gives us an opportunity to make smart decisions about our infrastructure.

The American Society of Civil Engineers has given the nation’s infrastructure an overall grade of D. Fixing deficient bridges, tunnels, dams and sewage-treatment plants, not to mention expanding high-speed Internet and modernizing the electricity grid, should be clear priorities.

Typically, the government spreads money like peanut butter, so that no one can do anything significant and every program is starved. Separate agencies oversee highways, aviation, transit and railroads. The 2009 stimulus introduced a better model: a competitive, $1.5 billion grant program for transportation, called Tiger, that forced local leaders to think regionally about strategies that combined multiple modes of transportation. The money untangled freight rail lines in Chicago, financed streetcars in Dallas and rapid buses in the Washington area, and helped Philadelphia build a 128-mile network of bike and walking trails. It should be a model for future transportation grant programs.

Investments in solar and wind energy, electric cars and high-speed rail make sense, but to have an impact there must be certainty around them. The fluctuations in America’s energy policy, the absence of a trust fund for high-speed rail as there is for highways and aviation, and the clear lack of a plan to tackle the deficit hinder the recovery instead of helping it.

In short, there are areas where the government should get out of the away, by clearing bureaucratic hurdles. But it’s equally important for politics to get out of the way of smart government policies that can help the private sector create jobs.

Michael Grabell is a reporter at ProPublica and the author of “Money Well Spent? The Truth Behind the Trillion-Dollar Stimulus, the Biggest Economic Recovery Plan in History.”
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/02/12/opinion/sunday/how-the-stimulus-fell-short.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

Funny the New York Times views it as a dismal failure, but it is your coloring book, color it any way you like ,,,,

MICHAEL GRABELL said it was a failure not the New York Times

Stimulus was not intended to fix a crashed economy by itself, only stimulate the economy into reversing its crash. Stimulus was merely priming the economic pump.

Could the money have been better spent? Of course
Cutting taxes arbitrarily and dumping money on the States was wasteful

Did it work? Like it or not, it did stimulate the economy. The Government dumped $800 billion into an economy that everyone in the private sector had abandoned

Within weeks of the stimulus passing the unemployment trend reversed as did the collapsing Stock Market. GDP went positive within two quarters

Could the money have been better spent? Of course.
That's all we need to know right there.
That $800 billion....Where'd it come from? And where'd it go?
Look, the very idea that the federal government was doing something was enough to give some small amount of confidence to the American people..
That should have been enough. There was no need to blow a trillion dollars on what is now known to be essentially stop gap measures to protect unionized municipal and state jobs which at the end of a very short period of time, went away anyhow.
The stimulus just delayed the inevitable.
The White House did not have to lie to us. If Obama had an ounce of integrity he would have told us that the money was going to be spent to keep public employees on their jobs for as long as the money lasts. And hopefully these locations would have recovered enough to sustain their eroding tax bases and keep these people employed once the money ran out. Most people would have accepted that. Of course politicians don't think that way. The difference between a politician and a statesman is the statesman will do what is for the good of the country and not be fearful of the political blow back. A politician will pour through data and base his decision on "how can I get away with this and piss off the fewest number of people?"
Being the consummate politician, Obama sold us on 'shovel ready jobs'....A bullshit story.
 
Its a case of pay me now or pay me later

Better to pay now while salaries and interest rates are low

How come none of you libs ask where the taxpayers are supposed to get the money for your schemes?

Like I said...its pay me now or pay me later

We desperately need infrastructure investment

The American Society of Civil Engineers has given the nation’s infrastructure an overall grade of D. Fixing deficient bridges, tunnels, dams and sewage-treatment plants, not to mention expanding high-speed Internet and modernizing the electricity grid, should be clear priorities.

If you invest now, you will pay low interest rates and pay low salaries to construction workers eager to get back to work

If you wait until the economy has fully recovered, you will pay a higher interest rate and compete with private industry for construction workers
You did not answer my question. Which is one directed at the concern for the ability of taxpayers to dig even deeper to find the additional money to pay.
 
How come none of you libs ask where the taxpayers are supposed to get the money for your schemes?

Like I said...its pay me now or pay me later

We desperately need infrastructure investment

The American Society of Civil Engineers has given the nation’s infrastructure an overall grade of D. Fixing deficient bridges, tunnels, dams and sewage-treatment plants, not to mention expanding high-speed Internet and modernizing the electricity grid, should be clear priorities.

If you invest now, you will pay low interest rates and pay low salaries to construction workers eager to get back to work

If you wait until the economy has fully recovered, you will pay a higher interest rate and compete with private industry for construction workers
You did not answer my question. Which is one directed at the concern for the ability of taxpayers to dig even deeper to find the additional money to pay.

That is the crux of the argument. We dig into our pockets now because we can get lower cost projects at low interest

Think of the late 40s early 50s. We had just finished a war. We were in debt. Millions of ex soldiers and ex defense workers were out of work.

We invested in our interstate highway system, bridges, water systems, sewers. It brought good jobs at good wages. We are still benefitting from those improvements, even though we haven't done shit to maintain them
 
It seems that many Americans want the president to be responsible for, and have the power, to change parts of America that need changing, by the same token, however, Americans also do not want the president to have the power to make those changes.


If that statement doesn't make much sense, that's my point. It is easier to hold one person responsible than 535. It is the same logic Jefferson used when attacking George III in the Declaration of Independence knowing full well that the problem was not George III but Parliament.
 
Shovel ready projects were short term jobs already planned and ready to provie immediate employment

We need major jobs....bridges, tunnels, highways, mass transit

Look what it did for the economy in the 50s
The jobs the White House was forced to admit did not exist.

Sure they did...I saw many in my community, didn't you?

The problem was there were not as many shovel ready projects meeting the criteria and Red States that just kept the money

Oh please.....Every once in a while I'd see one of those signs indicating the project was part of the stimulus.
One project near here, was started months before the stimulus was passed. Suddenly one of those signs appeared.
Many? I think you're making up that. And since you have no proof, claim is just that. A claim.
Let's not be silly here. Most of the stimulus money went to blue states with lots of unionized pubic workers.
You are defending the indefensible.
 
MICHAEL GRABELL said it was a failure not the New York Times

Stimulus was not intended to fix a crashed economy by itself, only stimulate the economy into reversing its crash. Stimulus was merely priming the economic pump.

Could the money have been better spent? Of course
Cutting taxes arbitrarily and dumping money on the States was wasteful

Did it work? Like it or not, it did stimulate the economy. The Government dumped $800 billion into an economy that everyone in the private sector had abandoned

Within weeks of the stimulus passing the unemployment trend reversed as did the collapsing Stock Market. GDP went positive within two quarters
BULL SHIT

This democrat stimulus plan was designed to pick winners and losers.

The American Society of Civil Engineers has given the nation’s infrastructure an overall grade of D. Fixing deficient bridges, tunnels, dams and sewage-treatment plants, not to mention expanding high-speed Internet and modernizing the electricity grid, should be clear priorities.

Typically, the government spreads money like peanut butter, so that no one can do anything significant and every program is starved. Separate agencies oversee highways, aviation, transit and railroads. The 2009 stimulus introduced a better model: a competitive, $1.5 billion grant program for transportation, called Tiger, that forced local leaders to think regionally about strategies that combined multiple modes of transportation. The money untangled freight rail lines in Chicago, financed streetcars in Dallas and rapid buses in the Washington area, and helped Philadelphia build a 128-mile network of bike and walking trails. It should be a model for future transportation grant programs.

Investments in solar and wind energy, electric cars and high-speed rail make sense, but to have an impact there must be certainty around them. The fluctuations in America’s energy policy, the absence of a trust fund for high-speed rail as there is for highways and aviation, and the clear lack of a plan to tackle the deficit hinder the recovery instead of helping it.

In short, there are areas where the government should get out of the away, by clearing bureaucratic hurdles. But it’s equally important for politics to get out of the way of smart government policies that can help the private sector create jobs

Isn't this what I have been advocating on this thread?
All lies. Under this administration Federal Investments of my tax dollars in solar and wind energy have done nothing but pick democrat cronies as winners who then take the investments to buy luxury yachts and build plants in china and run our other industries like coal out of business.

This administration is nothing but a pack of liars. They promise one thing then deliver the opposite. And you people in the democrat party celebrate these attacks on our country as success.

The future of transportation is "walking?" Are you retarded?

What part of the democrats are the biggest hurdle to all progress in this country is confusing you?
 
Last edited:
Like I said...its pay me now or pay me later

We desperately need infrastructure investment



If you invest now, you will pay low interest rates and pay low salaries to construction workers eager to get back to work

If you wait until the economy has fully recovered, you will pay a higher interest rate and compete with private industry for construction workers
You did not answer my question. Which is one directed at the concern for the ability of taxpayers to dig even deeper to find the additional money to pay.

That is the crux of the argument. We dig into our pockets now because we can get lower cost projects at low interest

Think of the late 40s early 50s. We had just finished a war. We were in debt. Millions of ex soldiers and ex defense workers were out of work.

We invested in our interstate highway system, bridges, water systems, sewers. It brought good jobs at good wages. We are still benefitting from those improvements, even though we haven't done shit to maintain them
Bull shit.
 
The jobs the White House was forced to admit did not exist.

Sure they did...I saw many in my community, didn't you?

The problem was there were not as many shovel ready projects meeting the criteria and Red States that just kept the money

Oh please.....Every once in a while I'd see one of those signs indicating the project was part of the stimulus.
One project near here, was started months before the stimulus was passed. Suddenly one of those signs appeared.
Many? I think you're making up that. And since you have no proof, claim is just that. A claim.
Let's not be silly here. Most of the stimulus money went to blue states with lots of unionized pubic workers.
You are defending the indefensible.

Bull crap

The governors of Red States postured about not taking stimulus money and then bragged about balancing their budgets without telling where that money came from
 
Was the WPA a bad idea?

"The Works Progress Administration (renamed in 1939 as the Work Projects Administration; WPA) was the largest and most ambitious New Deal agency, employing millions of unemployed people (mostly unskilled men) to carry out public works projects,[1] including the construction of public buildings and roads. In a much smaller but more famous project, the Federal Project Number One, the WPA employed musicians, artists, writers, actors and directors in large arts, drama, media, and literacy projects."

Works Progress Administration - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

There is no better time than today to bring back the WPA

Construction jobs are down, we need major infrastrcture upgrades, wages are low, interest rates are low

A perfect storm to encourage hiring millions of workers

Because plowing food into the ground during a food shortage is always good for the economy, right?
What's your problem with raising the value of crops in a depression?

"The Agricultural Adjustment Act (AAA) was a United States federal law of the New Deal era which reduced agricultural production by paying farmers subsidies not to plant on part of their land and to kill off excess livestock.

"Its purpose was to reduce crop surplus and therefore effectively raise the value of crops..."

"The law, in its entirety, can be read here.

Agricultural Adjustment Act - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 
There is no better time than today to bring back the WPA

Construction jobs are down, we need major infrastrcture upgrades, wages are low, interest rates are low

A perfect storm to encourage hiring millions of workers

Because plowing food into the ground during a food shortage is always good for the economy, right?
What's your problem with raising the value of crops in a depression?

"The Agricultural Adjustment Act (AAA) was a United States federal law of the New Deal era which reduced agricultural production by paying farmers subsidies not to plant on part of their land and to kill off excess livestock.

"Its purpose was to reduce crop surplus and therefore effectively raise the value of crops..."

"The law, in its entirety, can be read here.

Agricultural Adjustment Act - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Only a moron would think destroying perfectly good food is a rational economic policy.
 
No, getting a private-sector job works. Government make-work doesn't work.

Improving our public infrastructure is not "make work". Our infrastructure has ben ignored for almost 50 years. Roads, bridges, water systems, sewers, Communications, power grid

All need massive improvements. Better to do it now when a workforce is available, interest rates are low than wait till all the workers are employed and demanding higher salaries
Granted.

But I still have no clue how we're gonna pay for it.

We can't keep floating bond issues forever.

Even the Chinese aren't dumb enough to buy another massive issue, the way things stand nowadays.
FDR taxed rich individuals and corporations to cover the New Deal; possibly we could do the same and sell infrastructure improvement bonds to the public at large, much like War Bonds helped finance the Second Great Capitalist War of the 20th century?
 
Improving our public infrastructure is not "make work". Our infrastructure has ben ignored for almost 50 years. Roads, bridges, water systems, sewers, Communications, power grid

All need massive improvements. Better to do it now when a workforce is available, interest rates are low than wait till all the workers are employed and demanding higher salaries
Granted.

But I still have no clue how we're gonna pay for it.

We can't keep floating bond issues forever.

Even the Chinese aren't dumb enough to buy another massive issue, the way things stand nowadays.
FDR taxed rich individuals and corporations to cover the New Deal; possibly we could do the same and sell infrastructure improvement bonds to the public at large, much like War Bonds helped finance the Second Great Capitalist War of the 20th century?

You are one vast fountain of bad ideas. FDR made the depressions last for 12 years. That's what his heavy taxes on the rich and "infrastructure improvement" boondoggles did for the country.
 
15th post
Because plowing food into the ground during a food shortage is always good for the economy, right?
What's your problem with raising the value of crops in a depression?

"The Agricultural Adjustment Act (AAA) was a United States federal law of the New Deal era which reduced agricultural production by paying farmers subsidies not to plant on part of their land and to kill off excess livestock.

"Its purpose was to reduce crop surplus and therefore effectively raise the value of crops..."

"The law, in its entirety, can be read here.

Agricultural Adjustment Act - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Only a moron would think destroying perfectly good food is a rational economic policy.
Depends on the amount of surplus of the perfectly good food, doesn't it, Genius?

"When President Franklin Delano Roosevelt took office in 1933, America was in a severe economic depression.[7] 'Farmers faced the most severe economic situation and lowest agricultural prices since the 1890s.'[7] 'Overproduction and a shrinking international market had driven down agricultural prices.'[8]

"Soon after his election, Roosevelt called the Hundred Days Congress into session to address the crumbling economy.[8] From this Congress came the Agricultural Adjustment Administration.

"The Administration was tasked with decreasing agricultural surpluses.[8] "Wheat, cotton, field corn, hogs, rice, tobacco, and milk and its products were designated as basic commodities in the original legislation.

"Subsequent amendments in 1934 and 1935 expanded the list of basic commodities to include the following: rye, flax, barley, grain sorghums, cattle, peanuts, sugarbeets, sugarcane, and potatoes."[9]

"The Administration targeted these commodities for the following reasons:
Changes in the prices of these commodities had a strong affect on the prices of other important commodities.

"These commodities were already running a surplus at the time.

"These items each required some amount of processing before they could be consumed by humans"

Agricultural Adjustment Act - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 
What's your problem with raising the value of crops in a depression?

"The Agricultural Adjustment Act (AAA) was a United States federal law of the New Deal era which reduced agricultural production by paying farmers subsidies not to plant on part of their land and to kill off excess livestock.

"Its purpose was to reduce crop surplus and therefore effectively raise the value of crops..."

"The law, in its entirety, can be read here.

Agricultural Adjustment Act - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Only a moron would think destroying perfectly good food is a rational economic policy.
Depends on the amount of surplus of the perfectly good food, doesn't it, Genius?

No, it doesn't depend on the amount of "surplus." The only way a surplus could even exist is if the government is artificially maintaining the price. During a recession, prices should decrease. That's how the economy clears away excess production of goods that consumers don't want. Of course, during the Great Depression, FDR and his wizards did everything possible to interfere with the natural price adjustment mechanism of the economy.
 
Because plowing food into the ground during a food shortage is always good for the economy, right?
What's your problem with raising the value of crops in a depression?

"The Agricultural Adjustment Act (AAA) was a United States federal law of the New Deal era which reduced agricultural production by paying farmers subsidies not to plant on part of their land and to kill off excess livestock.

"Its purpose was to reduce crop surplus and therefore effectively raise the value of crops..."

"The law, in its entirety, can be read here.

Agricultural Adjustment Act - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Only a moron would think destroying perfectly good food is a rational economic policy.
And yet the government's been encouraging that for decades, hasn't it? On both Repug and Dummy watch sessions?
 
Only a moron would think destroying perfectly good food is a rational economic policy.
Depends on the amount of surplus of the perfectly good food, doesn't it, Genius?

No, it doesn't depend on the amount of "surplus." The only way a surplus could even exist is if the government is artificially maintaining the price. During a recession, prices should decrease. That's how the economy clears away excess production of goods that consumers don't want. Of course, during the Great Depression, FDR and his wizards did everything possible to interfere with the natural price adjustment mechanism of the economy.
A surplus could also exist when exports to Europe fell sharply due to fraud in the financial markets, leading to a world wide Depression. BTW, there are no "natural price adjustments" in a rigged market.
 

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