Yep, it was our infrastructure alright

[TemplarKormac]

Did you not even read the details in your own link? Or do you just form an opinion and hold onto it until it's shot to pieces?

I did. And my opinion wasn't "shot to pieces," in fact, you appear to be the one going to pieces at the moment.

Please make note of the difference between an opinion and an argument.

 

[AntiParty]

The NTSB is currently determining whether the engineer of the doomed Amtrak train #188 was on his phone during the night of the crash. But all I've heard thus far is that our sagging infrastructure is to blame, most of that coming from the left side of the aisle. Tell me liberals and Democrats, how does a sagging infrastructure cause an engineer to whip his phone out, while running a passenger train, and endanger the safety and welfare of the passengers? What role did the infrastructure play in his stupidity? Can you answer me honestly? I'm sure you can't. But you'll simply use this disaster, and those who died, to great lengths to effectuate the need for more infrastructure anyway.

Progress!

PHILADELPHIA - Investigators are combing through phone records, locomotive data, radio transmissions and surveillance video to determine if the engineer in last week's deadly Amtrak derailment was using his cellphone while at the controls, federal authorities said Wednesday.

Brandon Bostian's phone records show calls were made, text messages were sent and data was used the day of the crash, the National Transportation Safety Board said, but it remains unclear if the phone was used while the train was in motion.

Investigators won't be able make that determination until after a time-consuming analysis comparing time stamps from Bostian's subpoenaed phone records with those from an on-board data recorder, video and other sources, the NTSB said.

The May 12 derailment killed 8 people and injured more than 200. Investigators are looking into why the train from Washington to New York City was going double the 50 mph limit around a sharp curve.

Bostian's lawyer, Robert Goggin, has said he kept his cellphone in a bag and used it only to call 911 afterward. Bostian, who was injured, told investigators he had no recollection of the crash, the NTSB said.

"The next thing he recalls is being thrown around, coming to, finding his bag, getting his cellphone and dialing 911," Goggin told ABC News the day after the crash.

Goggin has not returned repeated messages from The Associated Press.

The NTSB also said Wednesday that the engineer of a different commuter train struck by a projectile minutes before the derailment told investigators he did not notice anything unusual when the Amtrak train passed by on a parallel track.

http://6abc.com/news/ntsb-has-possession-of-amtrak-engineers-cell-phone/732726/

^ "Hey honey. I'm driving over and old bridge" OMG I'M DEAD!

The Phone was the root cause.

^kind of a stupid argument

 

[oldernwiser]

Well - was there a reason it wasn't on? Get the details before you misinterpret the facts.

Someone chose not to, for some inane reason, turn it on you dolt. How else would it already be installed and not turned on?

How willfully obtuse can you be?

Here's how "willfully obtuse" I can be. I knew I had heard this at one point, but I couldn't find the reference until now.

From that link: "ATC speed controls are in place at the curve for southbound trains, which enter the 50-mph curve from a maximum speed of 110 mph, Amtrak says. But they are not in place for northbound trains, which enter from a maximum speed of 80 mph."

Which way was that train traveling?

southbound.

No, bripat, it was going northbound from Washington DC to New York City. Either way, oldernwiser can't blame the lack of the equipment for the crash. It was already equipped with PTC. The train entered the curve going 26 mph faster than the maximum northbound speed limit before the curve, it was going twice the limit during the curve. The train was required to slow to 50 mph from 80 mph in order to prevent derailment.

The train had already been equipped with the PTC. But somehow or another it was never turned on.

The whole idea of blaming one party or another for causing death is bush league. Once more, the whole idea of playing the dead as pawns in this whole issue turns my stomach. I honestly don't know how certain people sleep at night knowing the kind of sorry games they play with human life.

Now, to oldernwiser, I suggest you read this:

The Federal Railroad Administration said Saturday that it had instructed Amtrak to expand its use of a technology that would automatically stop speeding trains, an existing system that could have prevented the derailment of an Amtrak train on Tuesday.

That train was traveling at 106 m.p.h.,or more than twice the speed limit, when it came off the tracks, possibly after being struck by some kind of projectile. Eight people were killed and more than 200 people were injured.

The technology, called automatic train control, measures the speed of a passing train and alerts the engineer if the train is moving too fast. If the engineer does not slow the train, it applies the brakes.

This system is already in place on the southbound tracks on the site where the tracks [typo, meant crash] occurred, a rail yard northeast of Center City Philadelphia called Frankford Junction. A federal official familiar with the investigation, who spoke on the condition of anonymity, said it was in place on one track and not the other because southbound trains were required to make a more dramatic deceleration on the curve there than north bound trains were.

The southbound speed limit is 110 m.p.h. before the curve, and then drops to 50 m.p.h. On the northbound side, trains must slow from 80 m.p.h. to 50 m.p.h. The federal official said that if a train took the curve at 80 m.p.h., it would not derail, so the use of the automatic stop technology there was not required.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/05/17/u...-amtrak-to-expand-automatic-braking.html?_r=0

(In regards to the bolded: even if the train were going 80 mph around the curve, it would still have been going 30 mph over the required speed limit.)

Nothing here points to lack of equipment or funding; it was a lack of preparation. They had the equipment, they just simply never deployed it, on the now shoddy advice of the federal government.

That's really shortsighted. It has been a "lack of preparation" brought on by constant reductions in operating budget due to the misguided notion that lack of ridership equals system failure. And the constant reductions in operating budget were a direct result of shoddy Republican leadership.

 

[oldernwiser]

Did you not even read the details in your own link? Or do you just form an opinion and hold onto it until it's shot to pieces?

I did. And my opinion wasn't "shot to pieces," in fact, you appear to be the one going to pieces at the moment.

Please make note of the difference between an opinion and an argument.

Point taken...

Your opinion is wrong.

 

[TemplarKormac]

Did you not even read the details in your own link? Or do you just form an opinion and hold onto it until it's shot to pieces?

I did. And my opinion wasn't "shot to pieces," in fact, you appear to be the one going to pieces at the moment.

Please make note of the difference between an opinion and an argument.

Point taken...

Your opinion is wrong.

And your argument is defeated.

 

[oldernwiser]

If there is a "magical" device which would keep you from ramming into the car ahead of you, would it be wise to actually use it?

Yes, we call it a brake pedal. The train had one too.

And, if you had been mandated to use it - even if you couldn't afford it - and still rammed into the car ahead of you, wouldn't you be DOUBLY at fault for operating in a reckless manner and for failing to have the equipment that would have stopped you?

If I couldn't afford the brake, what business would I have owning the car?

What if the manufacturer of your car was liable for it's installation, tell me you wouldn't try to sue if it was never installed or failed.

That isn't always the case. Therein lies the flaw in your point. You can't always pin the blame on the manufacturer. Sometimes the car is just fine, but there's an idiot driving it. Stupid people do stupid things, and other people get hurt or killed because of it.

3 deflections in a row. Not bad!

What if your brakes failed - that happens, and sometimes unexpectedly. Or how about if you simply lost steering altogether - that actually happened to me once. If there was a device that could possibly save your life against mechanical failure AS WELL AS human error... yada yada?

 

[AntiParty]

If there is a "magical" device which would keep you from ramming into the car ahead of you, would it be wise to actually use it?

Yes, we call it a brake pedal. The train had one too.

And, if you had been mandated to use it - even if you couldn't afford it - and still rammed into the car ahead of you, wouldn't you be DOUBLY at fault for operating in a reckless manner and for failing to have the equipment that would have stopped you?

If I couldn't afford the brake, what business would I have owning the car?

What if the manufacturer of your car was liable for it's installation, tell me you wouldn't try to sue if it was never installed or failed.

That isn't always the case. Therein lies the flaw in your point. You can't always pin the blame on the manufacturer. Sometimes the car is just fine, but there's an idiot driving it. Stupid people do stupid things, and other people get hurt or killed because of it.

3 deflections in a row. Not bad!

What if your brakes failed - that happens, and sometimes unexpectedly. Or how about if you simply lost steering altogether - that actually happened to me once. If there was a device that could possibly save your life against mechanical failure AS WELL AS human error... yada yada?

But he should have been watching "the road" LMAO!

Trains don't exactly track new paths or meet traffic. It was certainly the phone use that causes the train accident, (R)ight?

 

[Lumpy 1]

If Amtrak stopped offering service in areas that they don't or likely couldn't make a profit, they would probably be up to date infrastructure wise. Find the fools that are forcing them to service non-profitable areas and kickith their asses.

My guess is that political legislators want to keep their railway union members employed and voting for them regardless of how much it costs American taxpayers in money or lives.

 

[TemplarKormac]

It has been a "lack of preparation" brought on by constant reductions in operating budget due to the misguided notion that lack of ridership equals system failure. And the constant reductions in operating budget were a direct result of shoddy Republican leadership.

Nonsense, with the amount of funding it was already receiving, it could have outfitted all of their tracks and trains with this technology 10 times over. Now, how do those trains and tracks go without this lifesaving equipment? It's not for want of funding, it's because the leadership and those handling the money aren't using it for the purpose it was intended for. The money is there, it is being spent on things other than maintaining the integrity of the rail system. Understand? The money is being mishandled, or spent recklessly.

To use your car analogy from earlier, if I had the money and I could afford the magical device which would automatically stop me from ramming the car in front of me, I shouldn't spend it on a set of 32 inch platinum rims now should I? The money is better spent on this magical device, correct? If I keep buying the fancy rims, it won't matter how much I get for this magical device, the money is wasted.

It's all about how you use the money, not how much you are getting.

 

[AntiParty]

It has been a "lack of preparation" brought on by constant reductions in operating budget due to the misguided notion that lack of ridership equals system failure. And the constant reductions in operating budget were a direct result of shoddy Republican leadership.

Nonsense, with the amount of funding it was already receiving, it could have outfitted all of their tracks and trains with this technology 10 times over. Now, how do those trains and tracks go without this lifesaving equipment? It's not for want of funding, it's because the leadership and those handling the money aren't using it for the purpose it was intended for. The money is there, it is being spent on things other than maintaining the integrity of the rail system. Understand? The money is being mishandled, or spent recklessly.

To use your car analogy from earlier, if had the money and I could afford the magical device which would automatically stop me from ramming the car in front of me, I shouldn't spend it on a set of 32 inch platinum rims now should I? The money is better spent on this magical device, correct? If I keep buying the fancy rims, it won't matter how much I get for this magical device, the money is wasted.

It's all about how you use the money, not how much you are getting.

^^^So it wasn't the "phone" now?

Did you just learn something about the topic you said was due to a train driver using a phone?

 

[TemplarKormac]

If there is a "magical" device which would keep you from ramming into the car ahead of you, would it be wise to actually use it?

Yes, we call it a brake pedal. The train had one too.

And, if you had been mandated to use it - even if you couldn't afford it - and still rammed into the car ahead of you, wouldn't you be DOUBLY at fault for operating in a reckless manner and for failing to have the equipment that would have stopped you?

If I couldn't afford the brake, what business would I have owning the car?

What if the manufacturer of your car was liable for it's installation, tell me you wouldn't try to sue if it was never installed or failed.

That isn't always the case. Therein lies the flaw in your point. You can't always pin the blame on the manufacturer. Sometimes the car is just fine, but there's an idiot driving it. Stupid people do stupid things, and other people get hurt or killed because of it.

3 deflections in a row. Not bad!

What if your brakes failed - that happens, and sometimes unexpectedly. Or how about if you simply lost steering altogether - that actually happened to me once. If there was a device that could possibly save your life against mechanical failure AS WELL AS human error... yada yada?

"What if, what if, what if"

You keep moving the goalposts, while committing the complex fallacy in the process.

You don't seem to understand that "if" this device was already installed on your car, it should have already saved your life, no? I'm mean it is perfectly functional, so "if" you could use the device and you didn't, then whose fault would that be?

 

[auditor0007]

The NTSB is currently determining whether the engineer of the doomed Amtrak train #188 was on his phone during the night of the crash. But all I've heard thus far is that our sagging infrastructure is to blame, most of that coming from the left side of the aisle. Tell me liberals and Democrats, how does a sagging infrastructure cause an engineer to whip his phone out, while running a passenger train, and endanger the safety and welfare of the passengers? What role did the infrastructure play in his stupidity? Can you answer me honestly? I'm sure you can't. But you'll simply use this disaster, and those who died, to great lengths to effectuate the need for more infrastructure anyway.

Progress!

PHILADELPHIA - Investigators are combing through phone records, locomotive data, radio transmissions and surveillance video to determine if the engineer in last week's deadly Amtrak derailment was using his cellphone while at the controls, federal authorities said Wednesday.

Brandon Bostian's phone records show calls were made, text messages were sent and data was used the day of the crash, the National Transportation Safety Board said, but it remains unclear if the phone was used while the train was in motion.

Investigators won't be able make that determination until after a time-consuming analysis comparing time stamps from Bostian's subpoenaed phone records with those from an on-board data recorder, video and other sources, the NTSB said.

The May 12 derailment killed 8 people and injured more than 200. Investigators are looking into why the train from Washington to New York City was going double the 50 mph limit around a sharp curve.

Bostian's lawyer, Robert Goggin, has said he kept his cellphone in a bag and used it only to call 911 afterward. Bostian, who was injured, told investigators he had no recollection of the crash, the NTSB said.

"The next thing he recalls is being thrown around, coming to, finding his bag, getting his cellphone and dialing 911," Goggin told ABC News the day after the crash.

Goggin has not returned repeated messages from The Associated Press.

The NTSB also said Wednesday that the engineer of a different commuter train struck by a projectile minutes before the derailment told investigators he did not notice anything unusual when the Amtrak train passed by on a parallel track.

http://6abc.com/news/ntsb-has-possession-of-amtrak-engineers-cell-phone/732726/

Pinhead!

There is a device called a PTC - Positive Train Control - that has already been legislated to be installed in trains and on tracks. It uses GPS as well as intertrain communication to be able to detect things like going too fast for a section of track or warning that another train is also on the same track. This device is both passive and assertive - it first warns the engineer of something he should take action on and, in the case the idiot was streaming porn on his phone or had a heart attack or a stroke or otherwise failed to take prudent action, would assume control and stop the train. It's not like all the other warning devices on a train which can be manually suppressed (which is what happens when engineers get really comfortable with their section of track). Anyway, the PTC has been installed in a few short sections of rail along the NE run but Amtrak has lacked the funding to fully comply with the law and some of the railway belongs to private companies and they don't have the authority to install it there (yeah - your Congress at work). That funding comes under the heading of infrastructure and had the railway been fitted with the available (and mandatory) equipment, this is a disaster that could have been avoided whether Bostian was on the phone or not.

And BTW - NTSB does an incredible job of investigating crashes. Examining Bostian's phone is one of those stones they wouldn't leave unturned. So just because they're looking at it doesn't imply anything.

Most cons are just too simple minded to understand complex issues such as this. You'll have to excuse Templar for this. It's not that cons are stupid; they just do not grasp anything that is not straight black and white.

 

[oldernwiser]

If there is a "magical" device which would keep you from ramming into the car ahead of you, would it be wise to actually use it?

Yes, we call it a brake pedal. The train had one too.

And, if you had been mandated to use it - even if you couldn't afford it - and still rammed into the car ahead of you, wouldn't you be DOUBLY at fault for operating in a reckless manner and for failing to have the equipment that would have stopped you?

If I couldn't afford the brake, what business would I have owning the car?

What if the manufacturer of your car was liable for it's installation, tell me you wouldn't try to sue if it was never installed or failed.

That isn't always the case. Therein lies the flaw in your point. You can't always pin the blame on the manufacturer. Sometimes the car is just fine, but there's an idiot driving it. Stupid people do stupid things, and other people get hurt or killed because of it.

3 deflections in a row. Not bad!

What if your brakes failed - that happens, and sometimes unexpectedly. Or how about if you simply lost steering altogether - that actually happened to me once. If there was a device that could possibly save your life against mechanical failure AS WELL AS human error... yada yada?

But he should have been watching "the road" LMAO!

Trains don't exactly track new paths or meet traffic. It was certainly the phone use that causes the train accident, (R)ight?

I'll stipulate to that. Engineers actually memorize their lines. From what the NTSB has related so far the train accelerated into the turn, and trains don't do that on their own. The NTSB has said that the engineer's phone had been used during they day of the crash, but hadn't yet determined whether it was used while the engineer was driving. The engineer claims that because of the beating he took when the train derailed, he's unable to remember several minutes before the crash. But, if the NTSB determines that the engineer didn't use the phone, we're down to only 3 possible explanations - either the train malfunctioned, the engineer has an undiagnosed medical condition (and that happened before) or the engineer had a death wish. Regardless, the inescapable fact is that a functioning PTC would have prevented the crash in every scenario.

 

[TemplarKormac]

Most cons are just too simple minded to understand complex issues such as this. You'll have to excuse Templar for this. It's not that cons are stupid; they just do not grasp anything that is not straight black and white.

And you are too childish to address the argument, instead your attack with you puerile name calling. Please, demonstrate how "complex" this situation is, wiseass.

Or instead of always looking for the most complex scenario, consider the simplest one instead. The engineer fucked up, Amtrak fucked up by wasting the money it was getting to implement this PTC system.

 

[TemplarKormac]

Regardless, the inescapable fact is that a functioning PTC would have prevented the crash in every scenario.

Of course however, it was already installed on the train, so the fourth possibility still remains. He neglected to use it or whoever was responsible for it chose not turn it on before the train departed.

If any train works in any way like it does in the cockpit of an airplane, the engineer should have to go through pre-departure procedures, like a check of the critical systems and such. Surely he couldn't have missed turning on the PTC.

 

[TemplarKormac]

You can't feed the children when you're paying for the hooker.

 

[oldernwiser]

If there is a "magical" device which would keep you from ramming into the car ahead of you, would it be wise to actually use it?

Yes, we call it a brake pedal. The train had one too.

And, if you had been mandated to use it - even if you couldn't afford it - and still rammed into the car ahead of you, wouldn't you be DOUBLY at fault for operating in a reckless manner and for failing to have the equipment that would have stopped you?

If I couldn't afford the brake, what business would I have owning the car?

What if the manufacturer of your car was liable for it's installation, tell me you wouldn't try to sue if it was never installed or failed.

That isn't always the case. Therein lies the flaw in your point. You can't always pin the blame on the manufacturer. Sometimes the car is just fine, but there's an idiot driving it. Stupid people do stupid things, and other people get hurt or killed because of it.

3 deflections in a row. Not bad!

What if your brakes failed - that happens, and sometimes unexpectedly. Or how about if you simply lost steering altogether - that actually happened to me once. If there was a device that could possibly save your life against mechanical failure AS WELL AS human error... yada yada?

"What if, what if, what if"

You keep moving the goalposts, while committing the complex fallacy in the process.

You don't seem to understand that "if" this device was already installed on your car, it should have already saved your life, no? I'm mean it is perfectly functional, so "if" you could use the device and you didn't, then whose fault would that be?

4 deflections and a missed point.

Just answer the question. If a device existed that would prevent you from slamming into the car in front of you in any scenario you could possibly imagine (that particular goalpost is now in cement), would you not be wise to use it? Seems like a simple question to me...

 

[TemplarKormac]

If there is a "magical" device which would keep you from ramming into the car ahead of you, would it be wise to actually use it?

Yes, we call it a brake pedal. The train had one too.

And, if you had been mandated to use it - even if you couldn't afford it - and still rammed into the car ahead of you, wouldn't you be DOUBLY at fault for operating in a reckless manner and for failing to have the equipment that would have stopped you?

If I couldn't afford the brake, what business would I have owning the car?

What if the manufacturer of your car was liable for it's installation, tell me you wouldn't try to sue if it was never installed or failed.

That isn't always the case. Therein lies the flaw in your point. You can't always pin the blame on the manufacturer. Sometimes the car is just fine, but there's an idiot driving it. Stupid people do stupid things, and other people get hurt or killed because of it.

3 deflections in a row. Not bad!

What if your brakes failed - that happens, and sometimes unexpectedly. Or how about if you simply lost steering altogether - that actually happened to me once. If there was a device that could possibly save your life against mechanical failure AS WELL AS human error... yada yada?

"What if, what if, what if"

You keep moving the goalposts, while committing the complex fallacy in the process.

You don't seem to understand that "if" this device was already installed on your car, it should have already saved your life, no? I'm mean it is perfectly functional, so "if" you could use the device and you didn't, then whose fault would that be?

4 deflections and a missed point.

Just answer the question. If a device existed that would prevent you from slamming into the car in front of you in any scenario you could possibly imagine (that particular goalpost is now in cement), would you not be wise to use it? Seems like a simple question to me...

Yes. I answered same when you asked me the first time. But in your overzealousness, you ignored it. If the device is in working order and already installed in your car, why wouldn't you use it?

Funny how you keep accusing me of "deflecting" as I have been answering your questions for the better part of three hours. Are you simply dissatisfied with the answers?

You have reading problems, mister?

 

[TemplarKormac]

Simply put, Amtrak was not spending the money on the PTC, or ALL of it would have been installed by this year. Deadlines, deadlines, deadlines.

 

[auditor0007]

Most cons are just too simple minded to understand complex issues such as this. You'll have to excuse Templar for this. It's not that cons are stupid; they just do not grasp anything that is not straight black and white.

And you are too childish to address the argument, instead your attack with you puerile name calling. Please, demonstrate how "complex" this situation is, wiseass.

Or instead of always looking for the most complex scenario, consider the simplest one instead. The engineer fucked up, Amtrak fucked up by wasting the money it was getting to implement this PTC system.

Most cons are just too simple minded to understand complex issues such as this. You'll have to excuse Templar for this. It's not that cons are stupid; they just do not grasp anything that is not straight black and white.

And you are too childish to address the argument, instead your attack with you puerile name calling. Please, demonstrate how "complex" this situation is, wiseass.

Or instead of always looking for the most complex scenario, consider the simplest one instead. The engineer fucked up, Amtrak fucked up by wasting the money it was getting to implement this PTC system.

Wrong, it's already been explained to you but you still don't get it. No matter the cause, which was almost certainly human error, the technology is there to prevent things like this from happening, but cons refuse to spend money on anything, even when it makes sense. Oh, let me correct that, unless it involves sending our kids to fight someone else's war, then they will support spending our tax dollars on that, to see our young men and women sent home in body bags to "save" those who hate us anyway, all in the name of oil that we don't really even need from the Middle East anyway. Now, please tell me how childish I am again. All I ever get from cons is stupid one liners and blaming others for one thing or another. Never do we get any real ideas on how to make things better for real people.