WTFO?

[theDoctorisIn]

A U.S. drone that kills innocent people is indistinguishable from a man who machine guns a crowd. A drone attack that kills innocent people is an act of terror. Obama is the worlds biggest terrorist.

On those same lines, dropping a bomb from 40,000 feet is indistinguishable from a drone strike - so every President of the US that has served in a time of war is the "world's biggest terrorist".

I partially agree, but when there is a declaration of war it no longer qualifies as "terrorism". We have not declared war since December 8, 1941.

Fair enough. I'll clarify my statement to mean "military action outside a declared war".

 

[The Great Goose]

In Australia we strip them of citizenship. They don't return.

 

[Spare_change]

A U.S. drone that kills innocent people is indistinguishable from a man who machine guns a crowd. A drone attack that kills innocent people is an act of terror. Obama is the worlds biggest terrorist.

Are you REALLY that naive???

 

[theDoctorisIn]

Yeah, we have something called a "justice system" here, as well as a Bill of Rights that requires people to be found guilty of crimes before they're punished for them.

What crime could they possibly be guilty of....under the Obabble administration?

In order for them to be "guilty" of a crime, they have to be charged with that crime, and tried first.

That's how it works here. If you'd prefer that people be arbitrarily declared criminals, there are plenty of totalitarian regimes that might suit you better.

Nonsense, of course .... they are, as a minimum, guilty of aiding and abetting the enemy, as well as plotting to overthrow the US government.

But, it would be VERY inconvenient for the current regime to admit the ISIS is an 'enemy' - and then admit they were plotting to overthrow the US government. That would be politically embarrassing to Obama - so, to avoid that, we will allow trained fighters to stay in the country.

No one in this country is "guilty" of anything until they've had their day in court.

 

[eagle1462010]

Yeah, we have something called a "justice system" here, as well as a Bill of Rights that requires people to be found guilty of crimes before they're punished for them.

What crime could they possibly be guilty of....under the Obabble administration?

In order for them to be "guilty" of a crime, they have to be charged with that crime, and tried first.

That's how it works here. If you'd prefer that people be arbitrarily declared criminals, there are plenty of totalitarian regimes that might suit you better.

Nonsense, of course .... they are, as a minimum, guilty of aiding and abetting the enemy, as well as plotting to overthrow the US government.

But, it would be VERY inconvenient for the current regime to admit the ISIS is an 'enemy' - and then admit they were plotting to overthrow the US government. That would be politically embarrassing to Obama - so, to avoid that, we will allow trained fighters to stay in the country.

No one in this country is "guilty" of anything until they've had their day in court.

The battlefield's are not a courtroom.......................That only applies to those returning...........They die with their terrorist buddies ISIS..........then the court have reached a final verdict.....................

 

[Spare_change]

Yeah, we have something called a "justice system" here, as well as a Bill of Rights that requires people to be found guilty of crimes before they're punished for them.

What crime could they possibly be guilty of....under the Obabble administration?

In order for them to be "guilty" of a crime, they have to be charged with that crime, and tried first.

That's how it works here. If you'd prefer that people be arbitrarily declared criminals, there are plenty of totalitarian regimes that might suit you better.

Nonsense, of course .... they are, as a minimum, guilty of aiding and abetting the enemy, as well as plotting to overthrow the US government.

But, it would be VERY inconvenient for the current regime to admit the ISIS is an 'enemy' - and then admit they were plotting to overthrow the US government. That would be politically embarrassing to Obama - so, to avoid that, we will allow trained fighters to stay in the country.

No one in this country is "guilty" of anything until they've had their day in court.

Quit playing semantics .... I think your average person knows that ... the fact that they haven't yet been tried is a different issue --- when they go to trial, it will be to determine if they are guilty of violating a particular law. Just because they haven't yet been tried makes them no less guilty of the act.

 

[theDoctorisIn]

Yeah, we have something called a "justice system" here, as well as a Bill of Rights that requires people to be found guilty of crimes before they're punished for them.

What crime could they possibly be guilty of....under the Obabble administration?

In order for them to be "guilty" of a crime, they have to be charged with that crime, and tried first.

That's how it works here. If you'd prefer that people be arbitrarily declared criminals, there are plenty of totalitarian regimes that might suit you better.

Nonsense, of course .... they are, as a minimum, guilty of aiding and abetting the enemy, as well as plotting to overthrow the US government.

But, it would be VERY inconvenient for the current regime to admit the ISIS is an 'enemy' - and then admit they were plotting to overthrow the US government. That would be politically embarrassing to Obama - so, to avoid that, we will allow trained fighters to stay in the country.

No one in this country is "guilty" of anything until they've had their day in court.

The battlefield's are not a courtroom.......................That only applies to those returning...........They die with their terrorist buddies ISIS..........then the court have reached a final verdict.....................

I'm not shedding any tears for Americans who've joined ISIS dying on the battlefield.

 

[theDoctorisIn]

Yeah, we have something called a "justice system" here, as well as a Bill of Rights that requires people to be found guilty of crimes before they're punished for them.

What crime could they possibly be guilty of....under the Obabble administration?

In order for them to be "guilty" of a crime, they have to be charged with that crime, and tried first.

That's how it works here. If you'd prefer that people be arbitrarily declared criminals, there are plenty of totalitarian regimes that might suit you better.

Nonsense, of course .... they are, as a minimum, guilty of aiding and abetting the enemy, as well as plotting to overthrow the US government.

But, it would be VERY inconvenient for the current regime to admit the ISIS is an 'enemy' - and then admit they were plotting to overthrow the US government. That would be politically embarrassing to Obama - so, to avoid that, we will allow trained fighters to stay in the country.

No one in this country is "guilty" of anything until they've had their day in court.

Quit playing semantics .... I think your average person knows that ... the fact that they haven't yet been tried is a different issue --- when they go to trial, it will be to determine if they are guilty of violating a particular law. Just because they haven't yet been tried makes them no less guilty of the act.

Legally, that's actually exactly what it means.

 

[Nosmo King]

A U.S. drone that kills innocent people is indistinguishable from a man who machine guns a crowd. A drone attack that kills innocent people is an act of terror. Obama is the worlds biggest terrorist.

Are the terrorists targeting leadership of our military and intelligence network, or are they targeting civilians exclusively? I'm not here to trumpet the devices, tactics and consequences. But the targets of war matter, not that civilian collateral death and injury and physical damage doesn't count. But, as Wiliiam Tecumseh Sherman said, "war is all hell". And, as in every war, civilians bear the yeoman's share of loss.

C'est l'guerre.

 

[Zander]

A U.S. drone that kills innocent people is indistinguishable from a man who machine guns a crowd. A drone attack that kills innocent people is an act of terror. Obama is the worlds biggest terrorist.

Are you REALLY that naive???

What is naive about the truth? Drone attacks in Pakistan alone have killed hundreds of innocent bystanders, women and children.

 

[Spare_change]

What crime could they possibly be guilty of....under the Obabble administration?

In order for them to be "guilty" of a crime, they have to be charged with that crime, and tried first.

That's how it works here. If you'd prefer that people be arbitrarily declared criminals, there are plenty of totalitarian regimes that might suit you better.

Nonsense, of course .... they are, as a minimum, guilty of aiding and abetting the enemy, as well as plotting to overthrow the US government.

But, it would be VERY inconvenient for the current regime to admit the ISIS is an 'enemy' - and then admit they were plotting to overthrow the US government. That would be politically embarrassing to Obama - so, to avoid that, we will allow trained fighters to stay in the country.

No one in this country is "guilty" of anything until they've had their day in court.

Quit playing semantics .... I think your average person knows that ... the fact that they haven't yet been tried is a different issue --- when they go to trial, it will be to determine if they are guilty of violating a particular law. Just because they haven't yet been tried makes them no less guilty of the act.

Legally, that's actually exactly what it means.

Legally, it means they broke a law ... you can be guilty of an act, but not guilty for breaking the law.

But, again, your argument is semantics ...

 

[theDoctorisIn]

In order for them to be "guilty" of a crime, they have to be charged with that crime, and tried first.

That's how it works here. If you'd prefer that people be arbitrarily declared criminals, there are plenty of totalitarian regimes that might suit you better.

Nonsense, of course .... they are, as a minimum, guilty of aiding and abetting the enemy, as well as plotting to overthrow the US government.

But, it would be VERY inconvenient for the current regime to admit the ISIS is an 'enemy' - and then admit they were plotting to overthrow the US government. That would be politically embarrassing to Obama - so, to avoid that, we will allow trained fighters to stay in the country.

No one in this country is "guilty" of anything until they've had their day in court.

Quit playing semantics .... I think your average person knows that ... the fact that they haven't yet been tried is a different issue --- when they go to trial, it will be to determine if they are guilty of violating a particular law. Just because they haven't yet been tried makes them no less guilty of the act.

Legally, that's actually exactly what it means.

Legally, it means they broke a law ... you can be guilty of an act, but not guilty for breaking the law.

But, again, your argument is semantics ...

No, it's not semantics, it's quite literally the foundation of our legal system.

 

[eagle1462010]

Is It Legal to Go Overseas to Fight ISIS?

Legal is a grey area.....................The article shows how if you are shooting in the right direction you will not be detained.............

If you are found with an enemy group..............the FBI can detain you immediately upon return............and try you for treason..........

 

[Spare_change]

A U.S. drone that kills innocent people is indistinguishable from a man who machine guns a crowd. A drone attack that kills innocent people is an act of terror. Obama is the worlds biggest terrorist.

Are you REALLY that naive???

What is naive about the truth? Drone attacks in Pakistan alone have killed hundreds of innocent bystanders, women and children.

That's true --- and the targets killed by those drones have killed thousands before we got them. Now, they won't kill any more innocents.

By the way --- there are NO innocents in war (yeah, I know - you're going to drag out a little 5 yr old girl). Her folks are the ones who didn't identify the terrorists. Everything in life has a price ...

 

[PaintMyHouse]

A U.S. drone that kills innocent people is indistinguishable from a man who machine guns a crowd. A drone attack that kills innocent people is an act of terror. Obama is the worlds biggest terrorist.

Are you REALLY that naive???

What is naive about the truth? Drone attacks in Pakistan alone have killed hundreds of innocent bystanders, women and children.

That's true --- and the targets killed by those drones have killed thousands before we got them. Now, they won't kill any more innocents.

By the way --- there are NO innocents in war (yeah, I know - you're going to drag out a little 5 yr old girl). Her folks are the ones who didn't identify the terrorists. Everything in life has a price ...

No innocents eh? Guess that includes fetuses, ******* terrorist supporters...

 

[Spare_change]

A U.S. drone that kills innocent people is indistinguishable from a man who machine guns a crowd. A drone attack that kills innocent people is an act of terror. Obama is the worlds biggest terrorist.

Are you REALLY that naive???

What is naive about the truth? Drone attacks in Pakistan alone have killed hundreds of innocent bystanders, women and children.

That's true --- and the targets killed by those drones have killed thousands before we got them. Now, they won't kill any more innocents.

By the way --- there are NO innocents in war (yeah, I know - you're going to drag out a little 5 yr old girl). Her folks are the ones who didn't identify the terrorists. Everything in life has a price ...

No innocents eh? Guess that includes fetuses, ******* terrorist supporters...

I'm sure this makes sense to somebody ---- but they're in an institution, and don't get to see this. The rest of us will just ignore it because it makes no damn sense at all.

 

[eagle1462010]

Nonsense, of course .... they are, as a minimum, guilty of aiding and abetting the enemy, as well as plotting to overthrow the US government.

But, it would be VERY inconvenient for the current regime to admit the ISIS is an 'enemy' - and then admit they were plotting to overthrow the US government. That would be politically embarrassing to Obama - so, to avoid that, we will allow trained fighters to stay in the country.

No one in this country is "guilty" of anything until they've had their day in court.

Quit playing semantics .... I think your average person knows that ... the fact that they haven't yet been tried is a different issue --- when they go to trial, it will be to determine if they are guilty of violating a particular law. Just because they haven't yet been tried makes them no less guilty of the act.

Legally, that's actually exactly what it means.

Legally, it means they broke a law ... you can be guilty of an act, but not guilty for breaking the law.

But, again, your argument is semantics ...

No, it's not semantics, it's quite literally the foundation of our legal system.

Americans Fighting For ISIS Could Face Array Of Criminal Charges

Americans who fight abroad can face a variety of criminal charges, depending on the particular facts associated with their fighting. The May 14, 2014 State Department designation of ISIS as a foreign terrorist organization is an important fact that satisfies an element of the offense for prosecutions under some of the statutes discussed below. Interestingly, some of the alleged criminal conduct may have pre-dated the State Department’s ISIS designation, which could pose a problem if Muhumed or others are apprehended and prosecuted. The problem would be surmountable though, so long as the criminal activity continued to occur after the State Department designation.

Below is a run down of some of the applicable provisions of federal criminal law.

• If the Americans fighting for ISIS, prior to leaving the United States, agreed with others to fight for ISIS (where fighting means killing or injuring others) and took some steps toward achieving that agreement, they may be subject to federal laws which criminalize conspiracies to engage in violence against people or property overseas. Specifically, it is unlawful to conspire within the United States, to commit murder, kidnapping, or maiming outside the United States, or to destroy foreign government property of a government with which the United States is at peace. An individual can be prosecuted so long as one overt act of the conspiracy takes place within the United States. The crime carries with it a sentence of life in prison if the aim of the conspiracy is to murder or kidnap, up to 35 years in prison if the aim of the conspiracy is to maim, and up to 25 years in prison if the aim of the conspiracy is to damage certain property. Importantly, this offense criminalizes the conspiracy, one need not successfully carry out the violent or destructive acts to be prosecuted.
• If while abroad, the Americans fighting for ISIS take hostages, they may face charges for hostage taking, which is a death penalty eligible offense if the death of any person results from the offense. To have jurisdiction over hostage taking abroad, the offender or person seized must be a United States national, or the offender must later be found in the United States.
• Americans fighting for ISIS may also face charges for Bombings of Places of Public Use, Government Facilities, Pubic Transportation Systems and Infrastructure Facilities. Federal law criminalizes placing, discharging, or detonating an explosive device in a place of public use, a state or government facility, a public transportation system, or an infrastructure facility with the intent to cause death or serious bodily injury or extensive damage to the structure. For such bombings abroad, an individual can be prosecuted if: the perpetrator “is a national of the United States or is a stateless person whose habitual residence is in the United States”, “if a victim is a national of the United States” or “if a perpetrator is found in the United States.” (along with a handful of other ways of finding jurisdiction).

There are also terrorism statutes which may also apply to the conduct of Americans fighting on behalf of ISIS.

• If individuals fighting for ISIS harm United States persons, even accidentally, they could be subject to federal laws which criminalize Terrorist Attacks Abroad Against United States Nationals. The crime includes killing, attempts to kill, and conspiracies to kill United States nationals outside the United States. It also criminalizes physical violence outside the United States if that physical violence is committed with the intent to cause serious bodily harm to a United States person or ends up resulting in serious bodily harm to a United States person. The punishment for committing terrorist attacks abroad against United States Nationals ranges from the death penalty downward to three years of imprisonment in the case of involuntary manslaughter (accidental killings). Prosecutions for such attacks abroad may only occur if the Attorney General certifies that the crime was “intended to coerce, intimidate, or retaliate against a government or a civilian population.”
• Federal law also criminalizes Providing Material Support To Terrorists and Providing Material Support Or Resources To Designated Terrorist Organizations. The first offense requires the government prove that the defendant intended that his material support would be used to commit or to prepare for a lengthy list of predicate offenses that could support terrorism. The second offense, providing material support to a designated terrorist organization, requires that the support go to a group that is in fact designated by the State Department as a foreign terrorist organization (here the provision of material support will need to occur or continue to occur after the group was designated as an FTO). The punishment for providing material support ranges from 15 years in prison to a life sentence if death results from the conduct. Material support includes all manner of things that can aid an enemy group, specifically:

the term “material support or resources” means any property, tangible or intangible, or service, including currency or monetary instruments or financial securities, financial services, lodging, training, expert advice or assistance, safehouses, false documentation or identification, communications equipment, facilities, weapons, lethal substances, explosives, personnel (1 or more individuals who may be or include oneself), and transportation, except medicine or religious materials;

• If the Americans fighting for ISIS received training from ISIS at any point after its designation as an FTO, they could also be punished for Receiving Military-Type Training From A Foreign Terrorist Organization. This statute criminalizes receiving training from or on behalf of a designated foreign terrorist organization. Training is broadly construed as instruction in means or methods that can cause death, serious bodily injury, destruction of property, disruption of critical infrastructure, weapons and firearm training. Importantly, once an individual receives military training, they have likely satisfied the overt act necessary to prosecute them for a conspiracy to provide material support, with the material support being themselves (as personnel). Receiving military training is punishable by a mandatory 10 year sentence in prison.

 

[Zander]

A U.S. drone that kills innocent people is indistinguishable from a man who machine guns a crowd. A drone attack that kills innocent people is an act of terror. Obama is the worlds biggest terrorist.

Are you REALLY that naive???

What is naive about the truth? Drone attacks in Pakistan alone have killed hundreds of innocent bystanders, women and children.

That's true --- and the targets killed by those drones have killed thousands before we got them. Now, they won't kill any more innocents.

By the way --- there are NO innocents in war (yeah, I know - you're going to drag out a little 5 yr old girl). Her folks are the ones who didn't identify the terrorists. Everything in life has a price ...

I appreciate your point of view, but I disagree.

When innocent civilians get killed by drone strikes it fuels more extremism. More young men become willing to die for "justice" even if it is against other innocent civilians. We are creating new terrorists with our meddling. We need to get out of the mid-east.

PS- We haven't declared war on anyone since 1941.

 

[theDoctorisIn]

No one in this country is "guilty" of anything until they've had their day in court.

Quit playing semantics .... I think your average person knows that ... the fact that they haven't yet been tried is a different issue --- when they go to trial, it will be to determine if they are guilty of violating a particular law. Just because they haven't yet been tried makes them no less guilty of the act.

Legally, that's actually exactly what it means.

Legally, it means they broke a law ... you can be guilty of an act, but not guilty for breaking the law.

But, again, your argument is semantics ...

No, it's not semantics, it's quite literally the foundation of our legal system.

Americans Fighting For ISIS Could Face Array Of Criminal Charges

Americans who fight abroad can face a variety of criminal charges, depending on the particular facts associated with their fighting. The May 14, 2014 State Department designation of ISIS as a foreign terrorist organization is an important fact that satisfies an element of the offense for prosecutions under some of the statutes discussed below. Interestingly, some of the alleged criminal conduct may have pre-dated the State Department’s ISIS designation, which could pose a problem if Muhumed or others are apprehended and prosecuted. The problem would be surmountable though, so long as the criminal activity continued to occur after the State Department designation.

Below is a run down of some of the applicable provisions of federal criminal law.

• If the Americans fighting for ISIS, prior to leaving the United States, agreed with others to fight for ISIS (where fighting means killing or injuring others) and took some steps toward achieving that agreement, they may be subject to federal laws which criminalize conspiracies to engage in violence against people or property overseas. Specifically, it is unlawful to conspire within the United States, to commit murder, kidnapping, or maiming outside the United States, or to destroy foreign government property of a government with which the United States is at peace. An individual can be prosecuted so long as one overt act of the conspiracy takes place within the United States. The crime carries with it a sentence of life in prison if the aim of the conspiracy is to murder or kidnap, up to 35 years in prison if the aim of the conspiracy is to maim, and up to 25 years in prison if the aim of the conspiracy is to damage certain property. Importantly, this offense criminalizes the conspiracy, one need not successfully carry out the violent or destructive acts to be prosecuted.
• If while abroad, the Americans fighting for ISIS take hostages, they may face charges for hostage taking, which is a death penalty eligible offense if the death of any person results from the offense. To have jurisdiction over hostage taking abroad, the offender or person seized must be a United States national, or the offender must later be found in the United States.
• Americans fighting for ISIS may also face charges for Bombings of Places of Public Use, Government Facilities, Pubic Transportation Systems and Infrastructure Facilities. Federal law criminalizes placing, discharging, or detonating an explosive device in a place of public use, a state or government facility, a public transportation system, or an infrastructure facility with the intent to cause death or serious bodily injury or extensive damage to the structure. For such bombings abroad, an individual can be prosecuted if: the perpetrator “is a national of the United States or is a stateless person whose habitual residence is in the United States”, “if a victim is a national of the United States” or “if a perpetrator is found in the United States.” (along with a handful of other ways of finding jurisdiction).

There are also terrorism statutes which may also apply to the conduct of Americans fighting on behalf of ISIS.

• If individuals fighting for ISIS harm United States persons, even accidentally, they could be subject to federal laws which criminalize Terrorist Attacks Abroad Against United States Nationals. The crime includes killing, attempts to kill, and conspiracies to kill United States nationals outside the United States. It also criminalizes physical violence outside the United States if that physical violence is committed with the intent to cause serious bodily harm to a United States person or ends up resulting in serious bodily harm to a United States person. The punishment for committing terrorist attacks abroad against United States Nationals ranges from the death penalty downward to three years of imprisonment in the case of involuntary manslaughter (accidental killings). Prosecutions for such attacks abroad may only occur if the Attorney General certifies that the crime was “intended to coerce, intimidate, or retaliate against a government or a civilian population.”
• Federal law also criminalizes Providing Material Support To Terrorists and Providing Material Support Or Resources To Designated Terrorist Organizations. The first offense requires the government prove that the defendant intended that his material support would be used to commit or to prepare for a lengthy list of predicate offenses that could support terrorism. The second offense, providing material support to a designated terrorist organization, requires that the support go to a group that is in fact designated by the State Department as a foreign terrorist organization (here the provision of material support will need to occur or continue to occur after the group was designated as an FTO). The punishment for providing material support ranges from 15 years in prison to a life sentence if death results from the conduct. Material support includes all manner of things that can aid an enemy group, specifically:

the term “material support or resources” means any property, tangible or intangible, or service, including currency or monetary instruments or financial securities, financial services, lodging, training, expert advice or assistance, safehouses, false documentation or identification, communications equipment, facilities, weapons, lethal substances, explosives, personnel (1 or more individuals who may be or include oneself), and transportation, except medicine or religious materials;

• If the Americans fighting for ISIS received training from ISIS at any point after its designation as an FTO, they could also be punished for Receiving Military-Type Training From A Foreign Terrorist Organization. This statute criminalizes receiving training from or on behalf of a designated foreign terrorist organization. Training is broadly construed as instruction in means or methods that can cause death, serious bodily injury, destruction of property, disruption of critical infrastructure, weapons and firearm training. Importantly, once an individual receives military training, they have likely satisfied the overt act necessary to prosecute them for a conspiracy to provide material support, with the material support being themselves (as personnel). Receiving military training is punishable by a mandatory 10 year sentence in prison.

Ok. I have no problem with any of those charges being filed against anyone who leaves rhw US to fight for ISIS, or willingly sends them money.

My argument is entirely about the right to a trial.

 

[PaintMyHouse]

A U.S. drone that kills innocent people is indistinguishable from a man who machine guns a crowd. A drone attack that kills innocent people is an act of terror. Obama is the worlds biggest terrorist.

Are you REALLY that naive???

What is naive about the truth? Drone attacks in Pakistan alone have killed hundreds of innocent bystanders, women and children.

That's true --- and the targets killed by those drones have killed thousands before we got them. Now, they won't kill any more innocents.

By the way --- there are NO innocents in war (yeah, I know - you're going to drag out a little 5 yr old girl). Her folks are the ones who didn't identify the terrorists. Everything in life has a price ...

No innocents eh? Guess that includes fetuses, ******* terrorist supporters...

I'm sure this makes sense to somebody ---- but they're in an institution, and don't get to see this. The rest of us will just ignore it because it makes no damn sense at all.

Pro-Life only for life you approve of. It's not difficult to understand.