Would you support subsidizing...

[Missourian]

Seems like a strawman...not a serious question.

So here is a non-serious answer...

I'd prefer that Apple made phones here and paid a UAW wage...and protected that wage through tarriffs if necessary.

I am being very serious.

Labor is by far the largest operating expense of any business. That is precisely why manufacturers move overseas. It has virtually nothing to do with taxes.

Cheap labor is precisely what gives them their edge.

So no, I am not kidding.

I get that. But in the long term we are strengthening China and weakening our own economy. If we wish to continue our current standard of living, we should be thinking long term and not selling our future for a very temporary wage advantage...IMO.

We have tons of wealth and jobs. China is not the problem..

LMFAO

China IS the problem for about 95% if the shit we are going through.

Nope. Blaming China is textbook misdirection by demagogues.

Our biggest problem is us. We've gotten fat, dumb, and lazy.

I can't argue with that...but we also can't live on Chinese wages...and while that may not be the problem, it certainly is a problem.

 

[Brain357]

I am being very serious.

Labor is by far the largest operating expense of any business. That is precisely why manufacturers move overseas. It has virtually nothing to do with taxes.

Cheap labor is precisely what gives them their edge.

So no, I am not kidding.

I get that. But in the long term we are strengthening China and weakening our own economy. If we wish to continue our current standard of living, we should be thinking long term and not selling our future for a very temporary wage advantage...IMO.

We have tons of wealth and jobs. China is not the problem..

LMFAO

China IS the problem for about 95% if the shit we are going through.

Really? Unemployment is super low and we have more wealth than ever. What problem are they to blame for?

In my opinion...the service economy model is unsustainable...and I think we're about to find out how unsustainable it is.

How do you mean?

 

[22lcidw]

So you want our government to allow Apple to treat American factory workers like slaves, and have them live in company barracks with suicide nets, and pay them peanuts like they can do in China?

Seems like a strawman...not a serious question.

So here is a non-serious answer...

I'd prefer that Apple made phones here and paid a UAW wage...and protected that wage through tarriffs if necessary.

The price would go up rather drastically.

Perhaps to target industries to return here. Build factories as a guaranteed percentage of the market and slowly increase that percentage over decades. If tariffs are needed to bring prices closer then maybe this is part of the pain needed to become self sufficient again. The socialist way will reduce with this.

 

[g5000]

...U.S. re-industrialization?

Why or why not?

You need to be more specific.

You've got to keep in mind I'm not as macro-economically savvy as you are...but what I mean is returning industry from China...and other countries.

Subsidizing it thru tax incentives and even grants...and then instituting some forms if protectionism to allow it to grow.

If our companies are not efficient enough to compete on a level playing field, then we should move investment to other fields in which we are more competitive, but if they are failing because of unfair trade practices by other countries, then I would support the use of tariffs to level the playing field. Because of the size of our economy, that would have the same protective effect as subsidies in our domestic markets.

If you are talking about manufacturing, the situation has very little to do with competetiveness.

The paradigm has shifted. Bigly.

Look at it this way. At the time our Constitution was signed, 98 percent of all jobs were in manufacturing. Even toddlers were out in the fields working their asses off.

But with the invention of more efficient farming methods and instruments, it took less people to make the same amount of food. We have advanced that technology so fantastically well, that it now takes less than 2 percent of our population to not only feed the US, but large swaths of the planet.

Now what would be your reaction to a moron demagogue who promised to "bring back all those lost farming jobs!"?

You'd recognize him as an idiot, right?

That same is true of mining. Those coal jobs are not coming back. It takes less manpower to mine now.

Just so with manufacturing. 80 percent of the jobs which have been lost in the last three decades have been lost to automation, not China.

There is just as much money in mining and agriculture as there ever has been. Even moreso. But that money is concentrated in a much smaller percentage of the population than in the past.

We are manufacturing more stuff in the US than we ever have before, but that money is also concentrate into a smaller percentage of our population.

Agriculture jobs shrank, now manufacturing jobs are shrinking. The jobs are moving into the service industry now. That's the fastest growing economic sector.

Our financial services sector provides something like 30 to 40 percent of GDP! Crazy, huh?

We need to be educating our children for the jobs of tomorrow, not the jobs of yesterday.

 

[g5000]

Let's travel back in time 60 years...

FARMER: What will my toddler son do when he grows up if he isn't going to be a farmer, dad blast it?

PSYCHIC: (*peers into crystal ball*) Your son is going to be in charge of the maintenance for satellite uplink/downlink terminals at Verizon.

FARMER: What's a satellite, and WHAT THE HELL IS A VERIZON!?!

PSYCHIC: I don't know, but if I were you, I'd be whipping him with a switch if he doesn't get straight A's in mathematics and science.

FARMER: Will he be handsome? Will he be rich?

PSYCHIC: Que sera, sera. Whatever will be, will be. The future's not ours to see...

 

[Thunk]

Yes OP, I would be in favor of it and we are seeing why right now.

When it comes to a crisis...every country has to look after THEIR OWN citizens. So we are not getting the usual supplies of drugs or masks or goggles or gowns needed to the health care workers to remain safe.

If this were a war, we would not be able to get the steel or aluminum we need to build tanks, planes, and ships.

It's a matter of survival to have your own manufacturing base!

 

[g5000]

So you want our government to allow Apple to treat American factory workers like slaves, and have them live in company barracks with suicide nets, and pay them peanuts like they can do in China?

Seems like a strawman...not a serious question.

So here is a non-serious answer...

I'd prefer that Apple made phones here and paid a UAW wage...and protected that wage through tarriffs if necessary.

The price would go up rather drastically.

Perhaps to target industries to return here. Build factories as a guaranteed percentage of the market and slowly increase that percentage over decades. If tariffs are needed to bring prices closer then maybe this is part of the pain needed to become self sufficient again. The socialist way will reduce with this.

Factories don't move overseas because of taxes!

It's all about labor costs.

And tariffs are paid by the importer and consumer, not the exporter. I do not understand why this does not penetrate the skulls of trumptards.

 

[MisterBeale]

Allow me to familiarize all of you with what is known as the Smiley Curve of Production:

This represents where value is added, i.e., where the profits are made, in the production cycle.

As you can see, the big money is in design phase and the distribution phase.

The design phase is the engineering phase. The invention phase. This is where innovation happens, and innovation happens as the result of higher education.

That is where we are seriously flagging, folks. You know who is kicking ass in this part of the Smiley Curve?

India.

The other end of the Smiley Curve is distribution. The Apple Store. The sales part of the picture.

It doesn't take a lot of brains to sell shit, and this is where most of our weight is thrown around these days. Service industry bullshit. That's where we are making our money.

But it isn't the idiot low skilled workforce making that money. It's the owners of the company. You want to make money for yourself, you need to be on the other end of the curve, and that requires an education.

There are factories cranking out laptops by the millions, and at the end of the assembly line they glue on corporate logos. And the logo makes all the difference in how much each laptop will sell for. Pretty crazy.

All because of the Smiley Curve.

But you know what? If someone else starts inventing the new shit, do you think they are going to sell it through US outlets, or will they sell through their own outlets and bring all that cash home?

Yeah. So think about that.

Now look at the middle of the curve. There's no money in manufacturing. That's why a lot of shit is made in China by slaves these days. The margins are just too narrow.

But America is still manufacturing more stuff than it ever has. It really is. People who tell you America doesn't make things any more are FULL OF SHIT.

It just takes a lot less PEOPLE to make all that STUFF. The wonders of automation.


Look at the curve. Think about it. A lot.

I do. All the time.

We are going to get whacked because we are slacking off on the Design side of the curve. The innovation and invention side. That's the genesis of everything which is ever created, folks.

So you better start believing we need a LOT more higher education in America.

A lot more.

I'm not arguing with any of that. I am not concerned about "jobs." I am concerned about long term stable supply.

All I am getting at, is the national security issue. The same reason we have an Agriculture Bill to stabilize the Agriculture Industry. Having the US population dependent on others for basic necessities is stupid.

Study: US military too reliant on foreign-made equipment

Coronavirus Spurs U.S. Efforts to End China’s Chokehold on Drugs

Coronavirus Spurs U.S. Efforts to End China’s Chokehold on Drugs

 

[flacaltenn]

...U.S. re-industrialization?

Why or why not?

That's what SHOULD have happened when we sent all the "easy" stuff to China.. Should have started in the 90s with emphasis on robotics, AI, nanotech, etc... But we did virtually nothing but allow Asia to make EVERYTHING we need besides food...

Subsidizing it NOW -- may NOT be necessary, because the end of "cheap labor" is almost here.. Even CHINA knows that.. So there WILL BE no labor advantage to manufacturing overseas very soon... ESPECIALLY with the demonstration of how dangerous it is to rely on manufacturing 1/2 way around the world...

 

[Missourian]

Allow me to familiarize all of you with what is known as the Smiley Curve of Production:

This represents where value is added, i.e., where the profits are made, in the production cycle.

As you can see, the big money is in design phase and the distribution phase.

The design phase is the engineering phase. The invention phase. This is where innovation happens, and innovation happens as the result of higher education.

That is where we are seriously flagging, folks. You know who is kicking ass in this part of the Smiley Curve?

India.

The other end of the Smiley Curve is distribution. The Apple Store. The sales part of the picture.

It doesn't take a lot of brains to sell shit, and this is where most of our weight is thrown around these days. Service industry bullshit. That's where we are making our money.

But it isn't the idiot low skilled workforce making that money. It's the owners of the company. You want to make money for yourself, you need to be on the other end of the curve, and that requires an education.

There are factories cranking out laptops by the millions, and at the end of the assembly line they glue on corporate logos. And the logo makes all the difference in how much each laptop will sell for. Pretty crazy.

All because of the Smiley Curve.

But you know what? If someone else starts inventing the new shit, do you think they are going to sell it through US outlets, or will they sell through their own outlets and bring all that cash home?

Yeah. So think about that.

Now look at the middle of the curve. There's no money in manufacturing. That's why a lot of shit is made in China by slaves these days. The margins are just too narrow.

But America is still manufacturing more stuff than it ever has. It really is. People who tell you America doesn't make things any more are FULL OF SHIT.

It just takes a lot less PEOPLE to make all that STUFF. The wonders of automation.


Look at the curve. Think about it. A lot.

I do. All the time.

We are going to get whacked because we are slacking off on the Design side of the curve. The innovation and invention side. That's the genesis of everything which is ever created, folks.

So you better start believing we need a LOT more higher education in America.

A lot more.

Thanks for that.

 

[g5000]

Allow me to familiarize all of you with what is known as the Smiley Curve of Production:

This represents where value is added, i.e., where the profits are made, in the production cycle.

As you can see, the big money is in design phase and the distribution phase.

The design phase is the engineering phase. The invention phase. This is where innovation happens, and innovation happens as the result of higher education.

That is where we are seriously flagging, folks. You know who is kicking ass in this part of the Smiley Curve?

India.

The other end of the Smiley Curve is distribution. The Apple Store. The sales part of the picture.

It doesn't take a lot of brains to sell shit, and this is where most of our weight is thrown around these days. Service industry bullshit. That's where we are making our money.

But it isn't the idiot low skilled workforce making that money. It's the owners of the company. You want to make money for yourself, you need to be on the other end of the curve, and that requires an education.

There are factories cranking out laptops by the millions, and at the end of the assembly line they glue on corporate logos. And the logo makes all the difference in how much each laptop will sell for. Pretty crazy.

All because of the Smiley Curve.

But you know what? If someone else starts inventing the new shit, do you think they are going to sell it through US outlets, or will they sell through their own outlets and bring all that cash home?

Yeah. So think about that.

Now look at the middle of the curve. There's no money in manufacturing. That's why a lot of shit is made in China by slaves these days. The margins are just too narrow.

But America is still manufacturing more stuff than it ever has. It really is. People who tell you America doesn't make things any more are FULL OF SHIT.

It just takes a lot less PEOPLE to make all that STUFF. The wonders of automation.


Look at the curve. Think about it. A lot.

I do. All the time.

We are going to get whacked because we are slacking off on the Design side of the curve. The innovation and invention side. That's the genesis of everything which is ever created, folks.

So you better start believing we need a LOT more higher education in America.

A lot more.

I'm not arguing with any of that. I am not concerned about "jobs." I am concerned about long term stable supply.

All I am getting at, is the national security issue. The same reason we have an Agriculture Bill to stabilize the Agriculture Industry. Having the US population dependent on others for basic necessities is stupid.

Study: US military too reliant on foreign-made equipment

Coronavirus Spurs U.S. Efforts to End China’s Chokehold on Drugs

Coronavirus Spurs U.S. Efforts to End China’s Chokehold on Drugs

Yes, we depend too heavily on imports for our medicines. I especially worry about quality control in other countries. I don't trust them at all.

We also depend too heavily on imports for our computer hardware.

 

[Brain357]

Yes OP, I would be in favor of it and we are seeing why right now.

When it comes to a crisis...every country has to look after THEIR OWN citizens. So we are not getting the usual supplies of drugs or masks or goggles or gowns needed to the health care workers to remain safe.

If this were a war, we would not be able to get the steel or aluminum we need to build tanks, planes, and ships.

It's a matter of survival to have your own manufacturing base!

That would only lead to more shortages and we’d all be paying more.

 

[flacaltenn]

The downside is -- that HAD we really invested in the 90s, OUR new factories wouldn't be buying robotics, AI, and other tech from the countries that DID do that back then...

 

[dblack]

...U.S. re-industrialization?

Why or why not?

Nope. I don't believe in government control of the economy.

 

[Brain357]

...U.S. re-industrialization?

Why or why not?

Nope. I don't believe in government control of the economy.

It’s amazing how some of the same people who say socialism is bad are suggesting socialism would fix problems...

 

[dblack]

...U.S. re-industrialization?

Why or why not?

Nope. I don't believe in government control of the economy.

It’s amazing how some of the same people who say socialism is bad are suggesting socialism would fix problems...

There's a lot of overlap between state nationalism and state socialism. And they both dovetail to the same thing anyway.

 

[Remodeling Maidiac]

...U.S. re-industrialization?

Why or why not?

You need to be more specific.

You've got to keep in mind I'm not as macro-economically savvy as you are...but what I mean is returning industry from China...and other countries.

Subsidizing it thru tax incentives and even grants...and then instituting some forms if protectionism to allow it to grow.

Economically that is very unlikely to work. The USSR was a very closed economy, it failed miserably...

The people of the USSR were DIRT FUCKING POOR so there were no consumers ya dummy.

 

[MisterBeale]

Yes OP, I would be in favor of it and we are seeing why right now.

When it comes to a crisis...every country has to look after THEIR OWN citizens. So we are not getting the usual supplies of drugs or masks or goggles or gowns needed to the health care workers to remain safe.

If this were a war, we would not be able to get the steel or aluminum we need to build tanks, planes, and ships.

It's a matter of survival to have your own manufacturing base!

That would only lead to more shortages and we’d all be paying more.

Why? Why is encouraging a domestic industry going to lead to shortages? Do you think, somehow the government would not let the rest of the world compete on our market? And when cheaper government subsidized local supply ran out. . . of course the market costs would be more expensive. DUH.

If the government subsidized local production, foreign producers will not be able to afford to compete.

Take the AG bill. The government gives money to farmers, and they factor that into production. Foreign producers cannot compete because their produce, sugar, beef, chicken etc. is much more expensive.

So, if our government gave money to critical industries, which then produced product for domestic consumption which was cheaper than foreign imports. . . at the point that domestic supply then ran out. . . why would the foreign supply not be allowed in at more expensive costs?

Do tell?

 

[MisterBeale]

...U.S. re-industrialization?

Why or why not?

You need to be more specific.

You've got to keep in mind I'm not as macro-economically savvy as you are...but what I mean is returning industry from China...and other countries.

Subsidizing it thru tax incentives and even grants...and then instituting some forms if protectionism to allow it to grow.

Economically that is very unlikely to work. The USSR was a very closed economy, it failed miserably...

The people of the USSR were DIRT FUCKING POOR so there were no consumers ya dummy.

It's a completely false comparison.

A much better comparison is to compare it with the AG BILL. That is a subsidized industry.

Or the energy industry. That is another industry we subsidize for national security.

 

[Brain357]

...U.S. re-industrialization?

Why or why not?

You need to be more specific.

You've got to keep in mind I'm not as macro-economically savvy as you are...but what I mean is returning industry from China...and other countries.

Subsidizing it thru tax incentives and even grants...and then instituting some forms if protectionism to allow it to grow.

Economically that is very unlikely to work. The USSR was a very closed economy, it failed miserably...

The people of the USSR were DIRT FUCKING POOR so there were no consumers ya dummy.

Yes and closing our economy would make us dirt fucking poor too. That’s the point.