CDZ Would you support enhanced interrogation if:

[Pop23]

So when you have maybe 12 or 36 hours to interrogate somebody and you TRULY believe there is a WMD targeted for Chicago --- is "maybe" not good enough for you?

Maybe ... a mind-reading machine would be more effective
Maybe ... begging would be more effective
Maybe ... befriending would be more effective
Maybe ... bribing would be more effective
Maybe ... cajoling would be more effective
Maybe ... drugging would be more effective
Maybe ... reasoning would be more effective
Maybe ... torture would be more effective

Why use torture?

cajoling and reasoning or begging is definitely not gonna work. Your list is a lot shorter than your sarcasm..

Now MAYBE --- threatening their family would work just swell. But you have to SELL that and even that takes time. Or a Hollywood scenario involving dangling them over a pool of sharks. Those are more complicated and take more time and resources.

I can do sarcasm too.. But it's too serious a proposition to screw it up with sarcasm..

Hopefully, you get the point. That being there is no proven method which works best. So why use torture?

There is whole SCIENCE of persuasion. Don't flatter youself assuming you're inventing ANYTHING here. Literally, a PROFESSION. So don't act like you're the 1st one to think about it.

Like flashing lights and sirens all day and all night at the Branch Davidian Compound and playing "These Boots are Made For Walking" and recording of rabbits being eaten alive. CONSTANTLY at torturous volume to deprive them of communication and sleep. Probably a entire DRUG lab somewhere supplying "novelty" products for the "persuasion" industry..

I've staked no claim to inventing any of those measures. Merely point out some of the alternatives. Some of which, would most certainly be more effective in this situation.

And I’ve pointed out that seasoned interrogators know how effective levels of these are, and can tell how quickly they will work on the individual.

I guess when we pass the point that they will likely work Faun, what? Let the suspect go? After all, until the bomb kills a few million, you got nothing to hold him with, right?

 

[Coyote]

If it's not the best method, why use it?

Deflection Faun. What is your alternative?

No answer, then you lose. You already know that, right?

There is no argument I can lose when you can't win. And you can't win an argument you can't prove. You have nothing to offer to prove torture is the best method and you even admit you're not claiming it's the best -- yet you cling to it anyway.

And again, the question you refuse to answer -- why use torture?

Had I claimed it the best method, you might have a point. But it is the last method, unless you have a better suggestion than going along a failed path, then you lose

Again.

Many Thanks

Under these circumstances, torture is virtually guaranteed to fail. Terrorists want to be martyred with their attack. Threatening them with impending death won't cause them to give up their terror plans; especially one as enormous as detonating a nuclear device in a big city.

Thanks to you, millions die.

So says the expert on the subject....................because you tortured him all will die. Where the hell do people like you come from.

There are NO GUARANTEES either way.

Finally, Candycorn says under the scenario of the OP that of course we would do whatever it takes to try to save the city and the lives there.......................Wasn't that hard to say to you Politically Correct assholes. You are so hard up on your PC Holy than thou world that you can't bring yourselves to say it. So DIGNIFIED............SO SELF RIGHTEOUS.............Almost GODLY............should we bow............

You have determined we are EVIL because we openly stated we would do what we would have to do in that scenario................While you condemn us for stating our opinions on what we would do.

Now that one has had the guts to state the obvious to the scenario of the OP................No I don't agree with torturing our prisoners of War............But in extreme circumstances I would GO MEDIEVEL ON SOMEONE. You condemn me because you ARE COWARDS......................You know damned well you would do what you had to do under the scenario posted. If you wouldn't do so to save the lives of so many people then I call you a Politically Correct Coward.

You can condemn me for being so upfront with my position.............I don't care...........It is my opinion and exactly what I'd do if that scenario came up. Have a Nice Day.

It has nothing to do with politically correct.

 

[JoeMoma]

If a terrorist is captured, and there is only a few hours before a nuke is going off, I doubt any type of interrogation method is going to be effected. In other words, we are screwed.
If an interrogator has several months to work on a captive terrorist, I suspect enhanced methods such as water boarding can be a successful tool. However, the process of using various interrogation methods to break the will of a captive so that he will give up secret information is a sophisticated process. It is not as simple as waterboard — tell me secrets, waterboard — tell me more secrets.

I beleive that waterboarding can be torture. Yes, we have soilders and agents that undergo waterboarding as part of training. The difference is that our soilders know it’s not going to be prolonged. The person being tortured does not know when and if it’s going to end.

 

[Frankeneinstein]

Would you support enhanced interrogation if:

Not under any circumstances

 

[flacaltenn]

So when you have maybe 12 or 36 hours to interrogate somebody and you TRULY believe there is a WMD targeted for Chicago --- is "maybe" not good enough for you?

Maybe ... a mind-reading machine would be more effective
Maybe ... begging would be more effective
Maybe ... befriending would be more effective
Maybe ... bribing would be more effective
Maybe ... cajoling would be more effective
Maybe ... drugging would be more effective
Maybe ... reasoning would be more effective
Maybe ... torture would be more effective

Why use torture?

cajoling and reasoning or begging is definitely not gonna work. Your list is a lot shorter than your sarcasm..

Now MAYBE --- threatening their family would work just swell. But you have to SELL that and even that takes time. Or a Hollywood scenario involving dangling them over a pool of sharks. Those are more complicated and take more time and resources.

I can do sarcasm too.. But it's too serious a proposition to screw it up with sarcasm..

Hopefully, you get the point. That being there is no proven method which works best. So why use torture?

There is whole SCIENCE of persuasion. Don't flatter youself assuming you're inventing ANYTHING here. Literally, a PROFESSION. So don't act like you're the 1st one to think about it.

Like flashing lights and sirens all day and all night at the Branch Davidian Compound and playing "These Boots are Made For Walking" and recording of rabbits being eaten alive. CONSTANTLY at torturous volume to deprive them of communication and sleep. Probably a entire DRUG lab somewhere supplying "novelty" products for the "persuasion" industry..

I've staked no claim to inventing any of those measures. Merely point out some of the alternatives. Some of which, would most certainly be more effective in this situation.

Like I said -- your opinion on what might be better means nothing if you're not aware of the actual amount of work and SCIENCE already laid out in this field. Go get the background to be a hostage negotiator or forensic interrogator or psychologist. There's LIBRARIES of measured results, theory, experience already out there in the open lit. And even more in the NON open literature.

 

[ABikerSailor]

If a terrorist is captured, and there is only a few hours before a nuke is going off, I doubt any type of interrogation method is going to be effected. In other words, we are screwed.
If an interrogator has several months to work on a captive terrorist, I suspect enhanced methods such as water boarding can be a successful tool. However, the process of using various interrogation methods to break the will of a captive so that he will give up secret information is a sophisticated process. It is not as simple as waterboard — tell me secrets, waterboard — tell me more secrets.

I beleive that waterboarding can be torture. Yes, we have soilders and agents that undergo waterboarding as part of training. The difference is that our soilders know it’s not going to be prolonged. The person being tortured does not know when and if it’s going to end.

Those soldiers that you like to give an example of undergoing torture are NOT your run of the mill military. Those people are Special Forces Operators who ROUTINELY go into harms way and know that as part of their job, they may have to undergo some form of torture by enemies. Yes, they are waterboarded, but not for days on end, usually just once or twice to familiarize them with what could happen in case they are captured.

No, nobody goes through waterboarding in boot camp. No, they don't go through that in regular training. The only people that have that happen as part of training are SEALs, Rangers and other special operators. And generally, that only happens when they undergo the SERE part of their survival training.

I hate it when you people say that waterboarding is okay because we do it to our military. No, we don't do it to our military as a whole, just those who get into special operations training. And, like I said, it's not for a month at a time, every 4 hours, it's only once or twice so they know what they might come up against.

 

[JoeMoma]

If a terrorist is captured, and there is only a few hours before a nuke is going off, I doubt any type of interrogation method is going to be effected. In other words, we are screwed.
If an interrogator has several months to work on a captive terrorist, I suspect enhanced methods such as water boarding can be a successful tool. However, the process of using various interrogation methods to break the will of a captive so that he will give up secret information is a sophisticated process. It is not as simple as waterboard — tell me secrets, waterboard — tell me more secrets.

I beleive that waterboarding can be torture. Yes, we have soilders and agents that undergo waterboarding as part of training. The difference is that our soilders know it’s not going to be prolonged. The person being tortured does not know when and if it’s going to end.

Those soldiers that you like to give an example of undergoing torture are NOT your run of the mill military. Those people are Special Forces Operators who ROUTINELY go into harms way and know that as part of their job, they may have to undergo some form of torture by enemies. Yes, they are waterboarded, but not for days on end, usually just once or twice to familiarize them with what could happen in case they are captured.

No, nobody goes through waterboarding in boot camp. No, they don't go through that in regular training. The only people that have that happen as part of training are SEALs, Rangers and other special operators. And generally, that only happens when they undergo the SERE part of their survival training.

I hate it when you people say that waterboarding is okay because we do it to our military. No, we don't do it to our military as a whole, just those who get into special operations training. And, like I said, it's not for a month at a time, every 4 hours, it's only once or twice so they know what they might come up against.

I didn’t say waterboarding is okay because it’s done to our military. I actually did not make a judgement call on whether it’s okay to use or not. I did give my opinion about it’s effectiveness. I beleive it can be effective in some cases. I doubt it would be effective if there is just a few hours in a ticking time bomb scenario. I do not think you read my post very well because we both made some of the same points.

 

[ABikerSailor]

If a terrorist is captured, and there is only a few hours before a nuke is going off, I doubt any type of interrogation method is going to be effected. In other words, we are screwed.
If an interrogator has several months to work on a captive terrorist, I suspect enhanced methods such as water boarding can be a successful tool. However, the process of using various interrogation methods to break the will of a captive so that he will give up secret information is a sophisticated process. It is not as simple as waterboard — tell me secrets, waterboard — tell me more secrets.

I beleive that waterboarding can be torture. Yes, we have soilders and agents that undergo waterboarding as part of training. The difference is that our soilders know it’s not going to be prolonged. The person being tortured does not know when and if it’s going to end.

Those soldiers that you like to give an example of undergoing torture are NOT your run of the mill military. Those people are Special Forces Operators who ROUTINELY go into harms way and know that as part of their job, they may have to undergo some form of torture by enemies. Yes, they are waterboarded, but not for days on end, usually just once or twice to familiarize them with what could happen in case they are captured.

No, nobody goes through waterboarding in boot camp. No, they don't go through that in regular training. The only people that have that happen as part of training are SEALs, Rangers and other special operators. And generally, that only happens when they undergo the SERE part of their survival training.

I hate it when you people say that waterboarding is okay because we do it to our military. No, we don't do it to our military as a whole, just those who get into special operations training. And, like I said, it's not for a month at a time, every 4 hours, it's only once or twice so they know what they might come up against.

I didn’t say waterboarding is okay because it’s done to our military. I actually did not make a judgement call on whether it’s okay to use or not. I did give my opinion about it’s effectiveness. I beleive it can be effective in some cases. I doubt it would be effective if there is just a few hours in a ticking time bomb scenario. I do not think you read my post very well because we both made some of the same points.

Didn't mean to sound upset, but it really bugs the hell out of me when people use the military to try to justify their position when they don't know what the hell they are talking about. There are many conservatives on here who have said that waterboarding isn't torture, because we do it to our military. No, the only ones that get that kind of training are special forces operators, not the military at large.

Reason it bugs me so much? I spent 20 years in the Navy, and also have known a few SEALs who on occasion would talk with me about stuff. Most civilians have zero idea about what really goes on in the military.

 

[JoeMoma]

If a terrorist is captured, and there is only a few hours before a nuke is going off, I doubt any type of interrogation method is going to be effected. In other words, we are screwed.
If an interrogator has several months to work on a captive terrorist, I suspect enhanced methods such as water boarding can be a successful tool. However, the process of using various interrogation methods to break the will of a captive so that he will give up secret information is a sophisticated process. It is not as simple as waterboard — tell me secrets, waterboard — tell me more secrets.

I beleive that waterboarding can be torture. Yes, we have soilders and agents that undergo waterboarding as part of training. The difference is that our soilders know it’s not going to be prolonged. The person being tortured does not know when and if it’s going to end.

Those soldiers that you like to give an example of undergoing torture are NOT your run of the mill military. Those people are Special Forces Operators who ROUTINELY go into harms way and know that as part of their job, they may have to undergo some form of torture by enemies. Yes, they are waterboarded, but not for days on end, usually just once or twice to familiarize them with what could happen in case they are captured.

No, nobody goes through waterboarding in boot camp. No, they don't go through that in regular training. The only people that have that happen as part of training are SEALs, Rangers and other special operators. And generally, that only happens when they undergo the SERE part of their survival training.

I hate it when you people say that waterboarding is okay because we do it to our military. No, we don't do it to our military as a whole, just those who get into special operations training. And, like I said, it's not for a month at a time, every 4 hours, it's only once or twice so they know what they might come up against.

I didn’t say waterboarding is okay because it’s done to our military. I actually did not make a judgement call on whether it’s okay to use or not. I did give my opinion about it’s effectiveness. I beleive it can be effective in some cases. I doubt it would be effective if there is just a few hours in a ticking time bomb scenario. I do not think you read my post very well because we both made some of the same points.

Didn't mean to sound upset, but it really bugs the hell out of me when people use the military to try to justify their position when they don't know what the hell they are talking about. There are many conservatives on here who have said that waterboarding isn't torture, because we do it to our military. No, the only ones that get that kind of training are special forces operators, not the military at large.

Reason it bugs me so much? I spent 20 years in the Navy, and also have known a few SEALs who on occasion would talk with me about stuff. Most civilians have zero idea about what really goes on in the military.

I tend to be conservative. I beleive prolonged waterboarding to be psychological torture. Some say it’s not torture because it doesn’t cause long term physical damage. I beleive there are many levels of torture. Should torture ever be used? Sometimes one has to pick the lessor of evils. I would hope that we never need to use waterboarding, but I beleive it may be needed in a very few extreme cases.

 

[ABikerSailor]

If a terrorist is captured, and there is only a few hours before a nuke is going off, I doubt any type of interrogation method is going to be effected. In other words, we are screwed.
If an interrogator has several months to work on a captive terrorist, I suspect enhanced methods such as water boarding can be a successful tool. However, the process of using various interrogation methods to break the will of a captive so that he will give up secret information is a sophisticated process. It is not as simple as waterboard — tell me secrets, waterboard — tell me more secrets.

I beleive that waterboarding can be torture. Yes, we have soilders and agents that undergo waterboarding as part of training. The difference is that our soilders know it’s not going to be prolonged. The person being tortured does not know when and if it’s going to end.

Those soldiers that you like to give an example of undergoing torture are NOT your run of the mill military. Those people are Special Forces Operators who ROUTINELY go into harms way and know that as part of their job, they may have to undergo some form of torture by enemies. Yes, they are waterboarded, but not for days on end, usually just once or twice to familiarize them with what could happen in case they are captured.

No, nobody goes through waterboarding in boot camp. No, they don't go through that in regular training. The only people that have that happen as part of training are SEALs, Rangers and other special operators. And generally, that only happens when they undergo the SERE part of their survival training.

I hate it when you people say that waterboarding is okay because we do it to our military. No, we don't do it to our military as a whole, just those who get into special operations training. And, like I said, it's not for a month at a time, every 4 hours, it's only once or twice so they know what they might come up against.

I didn’t say waterboarding is okay because it’s done to our military. I actually did not make a judgement call on whether it’s okay to use or not. I did give my opinion about it’s effectiveness. I beleive it can be effective in some cases. I doubt it would be effective if there is just a few hours in a ticking time bomb scenario. I do not think you read my post very well because we both made some of the same points.

Didn't mean to sound upset, but it really bugs the hell out of me when people use the military to try to justify their position when they don't know what the hell they are talking about. There are many conservatives on here who have said that waterboarding isn't torture, because we do it to our military. No, the only ones that get that kind of training are special forces operators, not the military at large.

Reason it bugs me so much? I spent 20 years in the Navy, and also have known a few SEALs who on occasion would talk with me about stuff. Most civilians have zero idea about what really goes on in the military.

I tend to be conservative. I beleive prolonged waterboarding to be psychological torture. Some say it’s not torture because it doesn’t cause long term physical damage. I beleive there are many levels of torture. Should torture ever be used? Sometimes one has to pick the lessor of evils. I would hope that we never need to use waterboarding, but I beleive it may be needed in a very few extreme cases.

The US determined that waterboarding was torture during the Korean war when they were waterboarding our soldiers over there. And, it's also considered torture by the Geneva conventions, which US soldiers are supposed to follow.
As far as waterboarding not causing any damage? There have been cases where people have died from heart attacks while being waterboarded.

Waterboarding - Wikipedia

Waterboarding is a form of water torture in which water is poured over a cloth covering the face and breathing passages of an immobilized captive, causing the individual to experience the sensation of drowning. Ordinarily, the water is poured intermittently so as to prevent death during torture, however, if the water is poured uninterruptedly it will lead to death by asphyxia with the sensation of drowning, also called dry drowning. Besides death, waterboarding can cause extreme pain, damage to lungs, brain damage from oxygen deprivation, other physical injuries including broken bones due to struggling against restraints, and lasting psychological damage.[1] Adverse physical consequences can manifest themselves months after the event, while psychological effects can last for years.[2]

In the most common method of waterboarding, the captive's face is covered with cloth or some other thin material, and the subject is immobilized on their back at an incline of 10 to 20 degrees.[3] Torturers pour water onto the face over the breathing passages, causing an almost immediate gag reflex and creating a drowning sensation for the captive.[4][5][6]

 

[dblack]

If a terrorist is captured, and there is only a few hours before a nuke is going off, I doubt any type of interrogation method is going to be effected. In other words, we are screwed.
If an interrogator has several months to work on a captive terrorist, I suspect enhanced methods such as water boarding can be a successful tool. However, the process of using various interrogation methods to break the will of a captive so that he will give up secret information is a sophisticated process. It is not as simple as waterboard — tell me secrets, waterboard — tell me more secrets.

I beleive that waterboarding can be torture. Yes, we have soilders and agents that undergo waterboarding as part of training. The difference is that our soilders know it’s not going to be prolonged. The person being tortured does not know when and if it’s going to end.

Those soldiers that you like to give an example of undergoing torture are NOT your run of the mill military. Those people are Special Forces Operators who ROUTINELY go into harms way and know that as part of their job, they may have to undergo some form of torture by enemies. Yes, they are waterboarded, but not for days on end, usually just once or twice to familiarize them with what could happen in case they are captured.

No, nobody goes through waterboarding in boot camp. No, they don't go through that in regular training. The only people that have that happen as part of training are SEALs, Rangers and other special operators. And generally, that only happens when they undergo the SERE part of their survival training.

I hate it when you people say that waterboarding is okay because we do it to our military. No, we don't do it to our military as a whole, just those who get into special operations training. And, like I said, it's not for a month at a time, every 4 hours, it's only once or twice so they know what they might come up against.

I didn’t say waterboarding is okay because it’s done to our military. I actually did not make a judgement call on whether it’s okay to use or not. I did give my opinion about it’s effectiveness. I beleive it can be effective in some cases. I doubt it would be effective if there is just a few hours in a ticking time bomb scenario. I do not think you read my post very well because we both made some of the same points.

Didn't mean to sound upset, but it really bugs the hell out of me when people use the military to try to justify their position when they don't know what the hell they are talking about. There are many conservatives on here who have said that waterboarding isn't torture, because we do it to our military. No, the only ones that get that kind of training are special forces operators, not the military at large.

Reason it bugs me so much? I spent 20 years in the Navy, and also have known a few SEALs who on occasion would talk with me about stuff. Most civilians have zero idea about what really goes on in the military.

I tend to be conservative. I beleive prolonged waterboarding to be psychological torture. Some say it’s not torture because it doesn’t cause long term physical damage. I beleive there are many levels of torture. Should torture ever be used? Sometimes one has to pick the lessor of evils. I would hope that we never need to use waterboarding, but I beleive it may be needed in a very few extreme cases.

The question is whether it should be adopted as a standard practice in certain cases. I don't think we should ever grant government the power to resort to such extreme measures. But that's government. As an individual, if I was face to face with someone I knew had info that would save thousands of lives, I'd do whatever I had to to get the job done - full well expecting go to jail, or even be executed, for my crime. That's the thing. It should be THAT important. Before we resort to something as depraved as torture, we'd better be willing to pay the price.

 

[JoeMoma]

If a terrorist is captured, and there is only a few hours before a nuke is going off, I doubt any type of interrogation method is going to be effected. In other words, we are screwed.
If an interrogator has several months to work on a captive terrorist, I suspect enhanced methods such as water boarding can be a successful tool. However, the process of using various interrogation methods to break the will of a captive so that he will give up secret information is a sophisticated process. It is not as simple as waterboard — tell me secrets, waterboard — tell me more secrets.

I beleive that waterboarding can be torture. Yes, we have soilders and agents that undergo waterboarding as part of training. The difference is that our soilders know it’s not going to be prolonged. The person being tortured does not know when and if it’s going to end.

Those soldiers that you like to give an example of undergoing torture are NOT your run of the mill military. Those people are Special Forces Operators who ROUTINELY go into harms way and know that as part of their job, they may have to undergo some form of torture by enemies. Yes, they are waterboarded, but not for days on end, usually just once or twice to familiarize them with what could happen in case they are captured.

No, nobody goes through waterboarding in boot camp. No, they don't go through that in regular training. The only people that have that happen as part of training are SEALs, Rangers and other special operators. And generally, that only happens when they undergo the SERE part of their survival training.

I hate it when you people say that waterboarding is okay because we do it to our military. No, we don't do it to our military as a whole, just those who get into special operations training. And, like I said, it's not for a month at a time, every 4 hours, it's only once or twice so they know what they might come up against.

I didn’t say waterboarding is okay because it’s done to our military. I actually did not make a judgement call on whether it’s okay to use or not. I did give my opinion about it’s effectiveness. I beleive it can be effective in some cases. I doubt it would be effective if there is just a few hours in a ticking time bomb scenario. I do not think you read my post very well because we both made some of the same points.

Didn't mean to sound upset, but it really bugs the hell out of me when people use the military to try to justify their position when they don't know what the hell they are talking about. There are many conservatives on here who have said that waterboarding isn't torture, because we do it to our military. No, the only ones that get that kind of training are special forces operators, not the military at large.

Reason it bugs me so much? I spent 20 years in the Navy, and also have known a few SEALs who on occasion would talk with me about stuff. Most civilians have zero idea about what really goes on in the military.

I tend to be conservative. I beleive prolonged waterboarding to be psychological torture. Some say it’s not torture because it doesn’t cause long term physical damage. I beleive there are many levels of torture. Should torture ever be used? Sometimes one has to pick the lessor of evils. I would hope that we never need to use waterboarding, but I beleive it may be needed in a very few extreme cases.

The question is whether it should be adopted as a standard practice in certain cases. I don't think we should ever grant government the power to resort to such extreme measures. But that's government. As an individual, if I was face to face with someone I knew had info that would save thousands of lives, I'd do whatever I had to to get the job done - full well expecting go to jail, or even be executed, for my crime. That's the thing. It should be THAT important. Before we resort to something as depraved as torture, we'd better be willing to pay the price.

If those are really the circumstances, most juries of 12 will let you off the hook. At least I would hope.

 

[dblack]

Those soldiers that you like to give an example of undergoing torture are NOT your run of the mill military. Those people are Special Forces Operators who ROUTINELY go into harms way and know that as part of their job, they may have to undergo some form of torture by enemies. Yes, they are waterboarded, but not for days on end, usually just once or twice to familiarize them with what could happen in case they are captured.

No, nobody goes through waterboarding in boot camp. No, they don't go through that in regular training. The only people that have that happen as part of training are SEALs, Rangers and other special operators. And generally, that only happens when they undergo the SERE part of their survival training.

I hate it when you people say that waterboarding is okay because we do it to our military. No, we don't do it to our military as a whole, just those who get into special operations training. And, like I said, it's not for a month at a time, every 4 hours, it's only once or twice so they know what they might come up against.

I didn’t say waterboarding is okay because it’s done to our military. I actually did not make a judgement call on whether it’s okay to use or not. I did give my opinion about it’s effectiveness. I beleive it can be effective in some cases. I doubt it would be effective if there is just a few hours in a ticking time bomb scenario. I do not think you read my post very well because we both made some of the same points.

Didn't mean to sound upset, but it really bugs the hell out of me when people use the military to try to justify their position when they don't know what the hell they are talking about. There are many conservatives on here who have said that waterboarding isn't torture, because we do it to our military. No, the only ones that get that kind of training are special forces operators, not the military at large.

Reason it bugs me so much? I spent 20 years in the Navy, and also have known a few SEALs who on occasion would talk with me about stuff. Most civilians have zero idea about what really goes on in the military.

I tend to be conservative. I beleive prolonged waterboarding to be psychological torture. Some say it’s not torture because it doesn’t cause long term physical damage. I beleive there are many levels of torture. Should torture ever be used? Sometimes one has to pick the lessor of evils. I would hope that we never need to use waterboarding, but I beleive it may be needed in a very few extreme cases.

The question is whether it should be adopted as a standard practice in certain cases. I don't think we should ever grant government the power to resort to such extreme measures. But that's government. As an individual, if I was face to face with someone I knew had info that would save thousands of lives, I'd do whatever I had to to get the job done - full well expecting go to jail, or even be executed, for my crime. That's the thing. It should be THAT important. Before we resort to something as depraved as torture, we'd better be willing to pay the price.

If those are really the circumstances, most juries of 12 will let you off the hook. At least I would hope.

Sure. If you are right - if your actions were justifiable, if not just - you get a token censure from government and retire on the book deals. But if you were wrong ...

Anyway, I just think we need to keep separate what each of us might do as individuals, under extreme duress, from what we authorize government to do.

 

[JoeMoma]

I didn’t say waterboarding is okay because it’s done to our military. I actually did not make a judgement call on whether it’s okay to use or not. I did give my opinion about it’s effectiveness. I beleive it can be effective in some cases. I doubt it would be effective if there is just a few hours in a ticking time bomb scenario. I do not think you read my post very well because we both made some of the same points.

Didn't mean to sound upset, but it really bugs the hell out of me when people use the military to try to justify their position when they don't know what the hell they are talking about. There are many conservatives on here who have said that waterboarding isn't torture, because we do it to our military. No, the only ones that get that kind of training are special forces operators, not the military at large.

Reason it bugs me so much? I spent 20 years in the Navy, and also have known a few SEALs who on occasion would talk with me about stuff. Most civilians have zero idea about what really goes on in the military.

I tend to be conservative. I beleive prolonged waterboarding to be psychological torture. Some say it’s not torture because it doesn’t cause long term physical damage. I beleive there are many levels of torture. Should torture ever be used? Sometimes one has to pick the lessor of evils. I would hope that we never need to use waterboarding, but I beleive it may be needed in a very few extreme cases.

The question is whether it should be adopted as a standard practice in certain cases. I don't think we should ever grant government the power to resort to such extreme measures. But that's government. As an individual, if I was face to face with someone I knew had info that would save thousands of lives, I'd do whatever I had to to get the job done - full well expecting go to jail, or even be executed, for my crime. That's the thing. It should be THAT important. Before we resort to something as depraved as torture, we'd better be willing to pay the price.

If those are really the circumstances, most juries of 12 will let you off the hook. At least I would hope.

Sure. If you are right - if your actions were justifiable, if not just - you get a token censure from government and retire on the book deals. But if you were wrong ...

Anyway, I just think we need to keep separate what each of us might do as individuals, under extreme duress, from what we authorize government to do.

Not exactly the same thing, but close enough.

 

[Faun]

Maybe ... a mind-reading machine would be more effective
Maybe ... begging would be more effective
Maybe ... befriending would be more effective
Maybe ... bribing would be more effective
Maybe ... cajoling would be more effective
Maybe ... drugging would be more effective
Maybe ... reasoning would be more effective
Maybe ... torture would be more effective

Why use torture?

cajoling and reasoning or begging is definitely not gonna work. Your list is a lot shorter than your sarcasm..

Now MAYBE --- threatening their family would work just swell. But you have to SELL that and even that takes time. Or a Hollywood scenario involving dangling them over a pool of sharks. Those are more complicated and take more time and resources.

I can do sarcasm too.. But it's too serious a proposition to screw it up with sarcasm..

Hopefully, you get the point. That being there is no proven method which works best. So why use torture?

There is whole SCIENCE of persuasion. Don't flatter youself assuming you're inventing ANYTHING here. Literally, a PROFESSION. So don't act like you're the 1st one to think about it.

Like flashing lights and sirens all day and all night at the Branch Davidian Compound and playing "These Boots are Made For Walking" and recording of rabbits being eaten alive. CONSTANTLY at torturous volume to deprive them of communication and sleep. Probably a entire DRUG lab somewhere supplying "novelty" products for the "persuasion" industry..

I've staked no claim to inventing any of those measures. Merely point out some of the alternatives. Some of which, would most certainly be more effective in this situation.

And I’ve pointed out that seasoned interrogators know how effective levels of these are, and can tell how quickly they will work on the individual.

I guess when we pass the point that they will likely work Faun, what? Let the suspect go? After all, until the bomb kills a few million, you got nothing to hold him with, right?

Your method gets nothing from the terrorist and millions die. How can you live with yourself?

 

[Faun]

Maybe ... a mind-reading machine would be more effective
Maybe ... begging would be more effective
Maybe ... befriending would be more effective
Maybe ... bribing would be more effective
Maybe ... cajoling would be more effective
Maybe ... drugging would be more effective
Maybe ... reasoning would be more effective
Maybe ... torture would be more effective

Why use torture?

cajoling and reasoning or begging is definitely not gonna work. Your list is a lot shorter than your sarcasm..

Now MAYBE --- threatening their family would work just swell. But you have to SELL that and even that takes time. Or a Hollywood scenario involving dangling them over a pool of sharks. Those are more complicated and take more time and resources.

I can do sarcasm too.. But it's too serious a proposition to screw it up with sarcasm..

Hopefully, you get the point. That being there is no proven method which works best. So why use torture?

There is whole SCIENCE of persuasion. Don't flatter youself assuming you're inventing ANYTHING here. Literally, a PROFESSION. So don't act like you're the 1st one to think about it.

Like flashing lights and sirens all day and all night at the Branch Davidian Compound and playing "These Boots are Made For Walking" and recording of rabbits being eaten alive. CONSTANTLY at torturous volume to deprive them of communication and sleep. Probably a entire DRUG lab somewhere supplying "novelty" products for the "persuasion" industry..

I've staked no claim to inventing any of those measures. Merely point out some of the alternatives. Some of which, would most certainly be more effective in this situation.

Like I said -- your opinion on what might be better means nothing if you're not aware of the actual amount of work and SCIENCE already laid out in this field. Go get the background to be a hostage negotiator or forensic interrogator or psychologist. There's LIBRARIES of measured results, theory, experience already out there in the open lit. And even more in the NON open literature.

Umm... no one’s ever faced this situation. All work and science is out the window.

 

[Faun]

If a terrorist is captured, and there is only a few hours before a nuke is going off, I doubt any type of interrogation method is going to be effected. In other words, we are screwed.
If an interrogator has several months to work on a captive terrorist, I suspect enhanced methods such as water boarding can be a successful tool. However, the process of using various interrogation methods to break the will of a captive so that he will give up secret information is a sophisticated process. It is not as simple as waterboard — tell me secrets, waterboard — tell me more secrets.

I beleive that waterboarding can be torture. Yes, we have soilders and agents that undergo waterboarding as part of training. The difference is that our soilders know it’s not going to be prolonged. The person being tortured does not know when and if it’s going to end.

Those soldiers that you like to give an example of undergoing torture are NOT your run of the mill military. Those people are Special Forces Operators who ROUTINELY go into harms way and know that as part of their job, they may have to undergo some form of torture by enemies. Yes, they are waterboarded, but not for days on end, usually just once or twice to familiarize them with what could happen in case they are captured.

No, nobody goes through waterboarding in boot camp. No, they don't go through that in regular training. The only people that have that happen as part of training are SEALs, Rangers and other special operators. And generally, that only happens when they undergo the SERE part of their survival training.

I hate it when you people say that waterboarding is okay because we do it to our military. No, we don't do it to our military as a whole, just those who get into special operations training. And, like I said, it's not for a month at a time, every 4 hours, it's only once or twice so they know what they might come up against.

And even the ones who do go through, don’t experience what it’s like in the hands of an enemy who actually would kill you, if they felt like it. Which is a huge factor in what makes it torture.

 

[Pop23]

cajoling and reasoning or begging is definitely not gonna work. Your list is a lot shorter than your sarcasm..

Now MAYBE --- threatening their family would work just swell. But you have to SELL that and even that takes time. Or a Hollywood scenario involving dangling them over a pool of sharks. Those are more complicated and take more time and resources.

I can do sarcasm too.. But it's too serious a proposition to screw it up with sarcasm..

Hopefully, you get the point. That being there is no proven method which works best. So why use torture?

There is whole SCIENCE of persuasion. Don't flatter youself assuming you're inventing ANYTHING here. Literally, a PROFESSION. So don't act like you're the 1st one to think about it.

Like flashing lights and sirens all day and all night at the Branch Davidian Compound and playing "These Boots are Made For Walking" and recording of rabbits being eaten alive. CONSTANTLY at torturous volume to deprive them of communication and sleep. Probably a entire DRUG lab somewhere supplying "novelty" products for the "persuasion" industry..

I've staked no claim to inventing any of those measures. Merely point out some of the alternatives. Some of which, would most certainly be more effective in this situation.

And I’ve pointed out that seasoned interrogators know how effective levels of these are, and can tell how quickly they will work on the individual.

I guess when we pass the point that they will likely work Faun, what? Let the suspect go? After all, until the bomb kills a few million, you got nothing to hold him with, right?

Your method gets nothing from the terrorist and millions die. How can you live with yourself?

Your method gets nothing from the terrorist and millions die. How can you live with yourself knowing there was something else you could have done?

 

[Faun]

Hopefully, you get the point. That being there is no proven method which works best. So why use torture?

There is whole SCIENCE of persuasion. Don't flatter youself assuming you're inventing ANYTHING here. Literally, a PROFESSION. So don't act like you're the 1st one to think about it.

Like flashing lights and sirens all day and all night at the Branch Davidian Compound and playing "These Boots are Made For Walking" and recording of rabbits being eaten alive. CONSTANTLY at torturous volume to deprive them of communication and sleep. Probably a entire DRUG lab somewhere supplying "novelty" products for the "persuasion" industry..

I've staked no claim to inventing any of those measures. Merely point out some of the alternatives. Some of which, would most certainly be more effective in this situation.

And I’ve pointed out that seasoned interrogators know how effective levels of these are, and can tell how quickly they will work on the individual.

I guess when we pass the point that they will likely work Faun, what? Let the suspect go? After all, until the bomb kills a few million, you got nothing to hold him with, right?

Your method gets nothing from the terrorist and millions die. How can you live with yourself?

Your method gets nothing from the terrorist and millions die. How can you live with yourself knowing there was something else you could have done?

Oh? Which method is that?

 

[Pop23]

There is whole SCIENCE of persuasion. Don't flatter youself assuming you're inventing ANYTHING here. Literally, a PROFESSION. So don't act like you're the 1st one to think about it.

Like flashing lights and sirens all day and all night at the Branch Davidian Compound and playing "These Boots are Made For Walking" and recording of rabbits being eaten alive. CONSTANTLY at torturous volume to deprive them of communication and sleep. Probably a entire DRUG lab somewhere supplying "novelty" products for the "persuasion" industry..

I've staked no claim to inventing any of those measures. Merely point out some of the alternatives. Some of which, would most certainly be more effective in this situation.

And I’ve pointed out that seasoned interrogators know how effective levels of these are, and can tell how quickly they will work on the individual.

I guess when we pass the point that they will likely work Faun, what? Let the suspect go? After all, until the bomb kills a few million, you got nothing to hold him with, right?

Your method gets nothing from the terrorist and millions die. How can you live with yourself?

Your method gets nothing from the terrorist and millions die. How can you live with yourself knowing there was something else you could have done?

Oh? Which method is that?

Oh? The method that is in the OP.