Would One of Our Jewish Members Please Explain the Nakba?

[Shusha]

As I have repeatedly shown, todays Israelis are no more related to the Ancient Hebrew warriors than they are to the Eskimos.

You have repeated the same tired line many times. You have "shown" nothing. Why don't you start with your criteria for establishing "valid claim" to self-determination in a territory. (While noting that, imo, blood quantum is not only a ridiculous way of assigning people to cultural collectives, it has been used to actively harm indigenous peoples in the past.)

EXCERPT "The 3rd millennium BCE Levantine civilizations that rivaled the greatness of Egypt and Mesopotamia.

And your point is what? That these civilizations and cultures were great? I am aware. That these civilizations and cultures sadly no longer exist? I am aware. That these civilizations and cultures would have a valid claim to self-determination in their indigenous homeland if they did exist? I am aware and agree. (Oh, look there internal consistency).

The only reason you believe this mythical "Jewish homeland" nonsense it that Zionist propagandists have weaponized archeology and been careful to destroy evidence of earlier Levantine civilizations..

With reflection on your previously expressed desire to have fruitful and respectful discussion, you would do well to ask more questions about my beliefs (and knowledge and education) rather than to assume them. For clarity: I believe that ANY surviving, distinct ethnic/cultural collective (and, with more reluctance, any national group) which developed on that territory has a right to self-determination. It is a consistent POV.

Most all Zionist / Israeli leaders and Israel's PMs are from Europe. How are they "indigenous" to Palestine / Israel.

They are indigenous to Israel because they belong to the Jewish collective and the Jewish people are indigenous to Israel. All Jews.

Finally, please define "cultural collectiveness" and explain how it justifies genocide and expulsion of Palestine's native Arab residents ...

I'm not using it to justify genocide or ethnic cleansing (neither of which charge is objectively true).

I am suggesting the claims of indigeneity and self-determination arise from an identifiable cultural or ethnic collective. I am suggesting that the way to categorize people in a reasonable way is by their culture: their language, their religious practices, their family traditions, their life celebrations, their holidays, their laws or general rules for living, their connection to a specific territory, their foods, their clothing.

If we were to extend this to Egypt, as an example, and were to apply the same principle of self-determination, we would categorize the collectives by culture, not by DNA.

Do they speak Kemet or Arabic? Do they practice the Islamic faith or do they revere Isis, and Horus, and Anubis? Do they celebrate Ramadan or Wapet-Renpet and Opet?

 

[Grau]

You have repeated the same tired line many times. You have "shown" nothing. Why don't you start with your criteria for establishing "valid claim" to self-determination in a territory. (While noting that, imo, blood quantum is not only a ridiculous way of assigning people to cultural collectives, it has been used to actively harm indigenous peoples in the past.)

And your point is what? That these civilizations and cultures were great? I am aware. That these civilizations and cultures sadly no longer exist? I am aware. That these civilizations and cultures would have a valid claim to self-determination in their indigenous homeland if they did exist? I am aware and agree. (Oh, look there internal consistency).

With reflection on your previously expressed desire to have fruitful and respectful discussion, you would do well to ask more questions about my beliefs (and knowledge and education) rather than to assume them. For clarity: I believe that ANY surviving, distinct ethnic/cultural collective (and, with more reluctance, any national group) which developed on that territory has a right to self-determination. It is a consistent POV.

They are indigenous to Israel because they belong to the Jewish collective and the Jewish people are indigenous to Israel. All Jews.

I'm not using it to justify genocide or ethnic cleansing (neither of which charge is objectively true).

I am suggesting the claims of indigeneity and self-determination arise from an identifiable cultural or ethnic collective. I am suggesting that the way to categorize people in a reasonable way is by their culture: their language, their religious practices, their family traditions, their life celebrations, their holidays, their laws or general rules for living, their connection to a specific territory, their foods, their clothing.

If we were to extend this to Egypt, as an example, and were to apply the same principle of self-determination, we would categorize the collectives by culture, not by DNA.

Do they speak Kemet or Arabic? Do they practice the Islamic faith or do they revere Isis, and Horus, and Anubis? Do they celebrate Ramadan or Wapet-Renpet and Opet?

I regret that I cannot respond to every one of your comments but I simply don't have time between worsening cancer, CHF, A-Fib, multiple orthopedic issues, an active social life, elderly animal care, maintaining a large, old home / farm, casual reading, writing & research, instructing younger blacksmith / artists, corresponding with friends and family around the world etc etc.

Re:

You have repeated the same tired line many times. You have "shown" nothing.

I showed that virtually all high ranking Israeli leaders & PMs are of European or other foreign background like most modern day Israelis.

It is difficult to communicate that point to someone who believes that an Asian who converts to Judaism suddenly becomes a Semite.

Re:

That these civilizations and cultures sadly no longer exist?

Egypt, Iraq and the Lebanese descendants of the Canaanites are very much alive and well.

Re:

With reflection on your previously expressed desire to have fruitful and respectful discussion, you would do well to ask more questions about my beliefs (and knowledge and education) rather than to assume them.

Please remember that you clearly expressed an unwillingness to discuss your personal life and related details.

Re:

For clarity: I believe that ANY surviving, distinct ethnic/cultural collective (and, with more reluctance, any national group) which developed on that territory has a right to self-determination.

Put more briefly, you have tailored your beliefs so that only foreign Jews have a right to exist in peace on stolen land; i.e. an "Arabrein" Greater Israel.

Re:

we would categorize the collectives by culture

"Culture" as defined by whom?

Re:

I am suggesting that the way to categorize people in a reasonable way is by their culture: their language, their religious practices, their family traditions, their life celebrations, their holidays, their laws or general rules for living, their connection to a specific territory, their foods, their clothing.

How does this relate to the ongoing, genocidal Nakba and systematic extermination / expulsion of Palestine's native residents or do only people with your narrow, personal concept of "culture" (i.e. the Jews) deserve the right to self determination?

Why do murderous and foreign "Settlers" have the right to murder, steal and destroy with impunity because they are your favorite culture?

Thanks,

 

[Shusha]

Put more briefly, you have tailored your beliefs so that only foreign Jews have a right to exist in peace on stolen land; i.e. an "Arabrein" Greater Israel.

No. This is a deliberate misrepresentation of my expressed beliefs on this board. If my actual beliefs are so terrible, why do you feel the need to misrepresent them?

 

[Shusha]

Egypt, Iraq and the Lebanese descendants of the Canaanites are very much alive and well.

Sure. But you can't build a self-determination of a defined peoples around DNA. Self-determination requires an identity. People don't generally know their ancestral DNA, let alone build an identity around it.

 

[ShahdagMountains]

Why do murderous and foreign "Settlers" have the right to murder, steal and destroy with impunity because they are your favorite culture?

These are the murderous and foreign “settlers”.

Israel is hardly visible.

 

[Grau]

These are the murderous and foreign “settlers”.

Israel is hardly visible.

View attachment 1144167

So what?

Is a dwarf entitled to murder, torture and steal just because he is a dwarf?

Sounds like typical Zionologic such as:

"God just gave me your golf clubs, I'll be right over."

 

[Grau]

No. This is a deliberate misrepresentation of my expressed beliefs on this board. If my actual beliefs are so terrible, why do you feel the need to misrepresent them?

I'm not intentionally misrepresenting your views.

Perhaps you could explain where Palestine's native residents fit in to the land that they have inhabited long before the invasion and occupation of European Zionist terrorist gangs.

How about reparations?

What Norman Finkelstein condemns as the Holocaust Industry has extracted over $100 Billion from countless countries, industries and individuals and is still after even more.

If "It's not about the money." why, then is no amount of money enough?

Why are Holocaust survivors more deserving than Nakba survivors?

What I sense from your writing seems to be a rather blatant double standard by which only Israelis and Jews are entitled to self determination and reparations and Palestine's native residents just need to go away and die.

I hope you won't try to blame the Zionist created Hamas for 80 years of Zionist genocide and expansionism.

Please clarify if I am mistaken.

Thanks,

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

Perhaps you could explain where Palestine's native residents fit in to the land that they have inhabited long before the invasion

The Arabs in Judea and Samaria belong in Arabia, where they came from.

 

[Shusha]

What I sense from your writing seems to be a rather blatant double standard by which only Israelis and Jews are entitled to self determination and reparations and Palestine's native residents just need to go away and die.

You are most certainly not sensing this from my writing. Rather it seems your perception of Jews has so colored your vision that you don't seem to be able to hear us when we speak.

From my post #121:

For clarity: I believe that ANY surviving, distinct ethnic/cultural collective (and, with more reluctance, any national group) which developed on that territory has a right to self-determination. It is a consistent POV.

What part of ANY did you sense really meant ONLY JEWS?!

Any means any. Catalans. Scots. Quebecois. Kurds. Coast Salish. Hopi. Maori. Hawai'i. Palestinian. Canaanite (if you can find one). Any means any.

 

[rosends]

Has anyone mentioned the meaning Zureiq, intended when he used it in 1948?

Self inflicted Arab disaster.

Also how it was used in al-Husseini's 1956 "Facts on the Question of Palestine."

 

[Grau]

You are most certainly not sensing this from my writing. Rather it seems your perception of Jews has so colored your vision that you don't seem to be able to hear us when we speak.

From my post #121:

What part of ANY did you sense really meant ONLY JEWS?!

Any means any. Catalans. Scots. Quebecois. Kurds. Coast Salish. Hopi. Maori. Hawai'i. Palestinian. Canaanite (if you can find one). Any means any.

Sorry for the delay in responding. As I wrote earlier, I'm spending more time in our V.A. hospital and trying to catch up when home.

Regarding your comment, I was disappointed to read a rather veiled accusation of anti Semitism when I'm sure you don't speak for all Jews.

Next, do you regard other Jews who don't hold your views "Self Hating Jews"?

You have expressed a belief that all people should be treated equally, so, I asked you:

"Perhaps you could explain where Palestine's native residents fit in to the land that they have inhabited long before the invasion and occupation of European Zionist terrorist gangs."

There is nothing anti Semitic in my expressing the simple fact that the Levant has been a homeland to numerous cultures prior to the ancient Hebrews.

Regarding your Post # 121

For clarity: I believe that ANY surviving, distinct ethnic/cultural collective (and, with more reluctance, any national group) which developed on that territory has a right to self-determination. It is a consistent POV.

Are we are discussing the right of individuals to be treated equally in respect to the right to self determination?

Your opinion of who has a right to self determination is as curious as it is complex.

At the moment, it is impossible to talk about equality and self determination when about 2 million native residents of Gaza are enduring unspeakable atrocities at the hands of today's "Mad Dogs". (1)

Finally, you have already stated that you consider yourself to be a Zionist but I can't imagine that you support Smotrich and his US funded genocidal ilk.
Do you?

Thanks,

"Israeli minister says it may be ‘moral’ to starve 2 million Gazans, but ‘no one in the world would let us’"​

https://www.cnn.com/2024/08/06/middleeast/israeli-minister-smotrich-starve-gazans-intl

(1). "Israel must be like a mad dog, too dangerous to bother."

Moshe Dayan

Moshe Dayan Quote

Israel must be like a mad dog, too dangerous to bother.

www.azquotes.com

 

[Shusha]

Sorry for the delay in responding.

No worries at all. Take your time.

Are we are discussing the right of individuals to be treated equally in respect to the right to self determination?

We are discussing the rights of collectives of people with an ethnic or cultural identity to self-determination in the land from which they originated.

Your opinion of who has a right to self determination is as curious as it is complex.

Is it? It seems rather simple to me. It requires no more than a ethnic (cultural) identity and a land where that ethnic (cultural) identity originated.

Finally, you have already stated that you consider yourself to be a Zionist but I can't imagine that you support Smotrich and his US funded genocidal ilk.

Meh. I've not done a deep dive into Smotrich's political position, tbh. There are many statements, and alleged statements, that I vehemently disagree with or find morally repugnant.

 

[ShahdagMountains]

Also these numbers are worth noting, in the overall scheme of things.

To be sure, the misfortune of hundreds of thousands Palestinian Arabs displaced by war in 1948 deserved commensurate aid and support from international bodies. But the gravity of their calamity should be considered within the overall picture of displaced peoples at the time. One must keep in mind that nearly one hundred million people were displaced by war throughout the 20th century:

• 40,000,000 by World War II in 1939-1945
• 14,000,000 Muslims and Hindus by the creation of Pakistan in 1947
• 12,000,000 ethnic Germans by Soviet bloc countries after 1945
• 10,000,000 to India after Bangladeshi independence in 1971
• 6,300,000 Afghans by the Soviet takeover in 1979
• 5,700,000 in Mozambique’s civil-war 1976-92
• 3,500,000 in the Rwandan civil war in 1994
• 2,500,000 through the breakdown of Yugoslavia in 1994-95
• 2,000,000 by the Biafran war of 1967 in Nigeria
• 2,000,000 in Central American civil wars in the 1980s
• 1,500,000 Greeks expelled by Turkey between 1914 and 1922
• 1,000,000 Catholics at the formation of Communist North Vietnam in 1955-57
• 900,000 Jews expelled from Arab countries after the creation of Israel
• 750,000 Armenians expelled by Russia in 1915

Source, Times of Israel.

 

[Grau]

Also these numbers are worth noting, in the overall scheme of things.

To be sure, the misfortune of hundreds of thousands Palestinian Arabs displaced by war in 1948 deserved commensurate aid and support from international bodies. But the gravity of their calamity should be considered within the overall picture of displaced peoples at the time. One must keep in mind that nearly one hundred million people were displaced by war throughout the 20th century:

• 40,000,000 by World War II in 1939-1945
• 14,000,000 Muslims and Hindus by the creation of Pakistan in 1947
• 12,000,000 ethnic Germans by Soviet bloc countries after 1945
• 10,000,000 to India after Bangladeshi independence in 1971
• 6,300,000 Afghans by the Soviet takeover in 1979
• 5,700,000 in Mozambique’s civil-war 1976-92
• 3,500,000 in the Rwandan civil war in 1994
• 2,500,000 through the breakdown of Yugoslavia in 1994-95
• 2,000,000 by the Biafran war of 1967 in Nigeria
• 2,000,000 in Central American civil wars in the 1980s
• 1,500,000 Greeks expelled by Turkey between 1914 and 1922
• 1,000,000 Catholics at the formation of Communist North Vietnam in 1955-57
• 900,000 Jews expelled from Arab countries after the creation of Israel
• 750,000 Armenians expelled by Russia in 1915

Source, Times of Israel.

The whole purpose for recalling earlier genocides is to oppose today's genocide in Gaza and the West Bank otherwise they are just meaningless numbers on a page.

Attempting to obfuscate the deliberate infliction of starvation and mass murder today by exploiting previous atrocities shows that you are either ignorant of history or too dumb to understand its lessons.


"Israel exploits Holocaust to mask its 'genocide' in Gaza, survivor says"

"Holocaust survivor Stephen Kapos has condemned Israel's Gaza atrocities, drawing parallels to the Holocaust, urging global awareness and response."

TRT World - TRT World - Breaking News, Live Coverage, Opinions and Videos

TRT World - Breaking news, live coverage, opinions, features, in-depth analysis and videos from TRT World, 24/7.

www.trtworld.com

EXCERPT "Israel is manipulating the memory of the Holocaust as a cover to carry out the same atrocities in Gaza, according to a Holocaust survivor.

Stephen Kapos, an 87-year-old Holocaust survivor from Budapest, believes there is no doubt that Israel is committing a “genocide” in Gaza.

“I am here because I protest against the use of the memory of the Holocaust as a cover and as a justification for perpetrating the same in Gaza as a genocide against the Palestinian people,” Kapos, who lost most of his family in the Holocaust, told Anadolu news agency at a recent pro-Palestine rally in London." CONTINUED

 

[ShahdagMountains]

The whole purpose for recalling earlier genocides is to oppose today's genocide in Gaza and the West Bank otherwise they are just meaningless numbers on a page.

Attempting to obfuscate the deliberate infliction of starvation and mass murder today by exploiting previous atrocities shows that you are either ignorant of history or too dumb to understand its lessons.


"Israel exploits Holocaust to mask its 'genocide' in Gaza, survivor says"

"Holocaust survivor Stephen Kapos has condemned Israel's Gaza atrocities, drawing parallels to the Holocaust, urging global awareness and response."

TRT World - TRT World - Breaking News, Live Coverage, Opinions and Videos

TRT World - Breaking news, live coverage, opinions, features, in-depth analysis and videos from TRT World, 24/7.

www.trtworld.com

EXCERPT "Israel is manipulating the memory of the Holocaust as a cover to carry out the same atrocities in Gaza, according to a Holocaust survivor.

Stephen Kapos, an 87-year-old Holocaust survivor from Budapest, believes there is no doubt that Israel is committing a “genocide” in Gaza.

“I am here because I protest against the use of the memory of the Holocaust as a cover and as a justification for perpetrating the same in Gaza as a genocide against the Palestinian people,” Kapos, who lost most of his family in the Holocaust, told Anadolu news agency at a recent pro-Palestine rally in London." CONTINUED

You’ve just wasted your time and mine, indulging in that blurb.

 

[Grau]

You’ve just wasted your time and mine, indulging in that blurb.

If attempting to educate you as to the real reason that history is important is a waste of time, that's not my fault.

"Those that fail to learn from history, are doomed to repeat it." Winston Churchill

 

[ShahdagMountains]

If attempting to educate you as to the real reason that history is important is a waste of time, that's not my fault.

You’ve got a nerve. Who do you think you are?

 

[rosends]

If attempting to educate you as to the real reason that history is important is a waste of time, that's not my fault.

"Those that fail to learn from history, are doomed to repeat it." Winston Churchill

The saying dates back to Georgia santayana in 1906

 

[Grau]

The saying dates back to Georgia santayana in 1906

.... and probably before him.

Thanks for the information.

As I mentioned earlier, I enjoy this forum as much to learn as to pontificate.

 

[gold something]

I'm Jewish, but what's the deal? You ask for an explanation, but then proceed to give statements. You sound disingenuous.

Anyway, what is your problem. Stronger forces have taken land from weaker forces since time immemorial. Time to live with that reality.