Wonder Why "They" Hate US? Could Be Europe

[Annie]

http://www.upi.com/inc/view.php?StoryID=20030412-013135-5601r

nternational
Anglosphere: Why do they hate us?

By JAMES C. BENNETT

WASHINGTON, April 12 (UPI) -- Why do they hate us? This question has been asked incessantly since Sept. 11, 2001. Sometimes it is asked about Muslims in general; sometimes about the Arab world in particular.

However, it is worth considering the possibility that the root source of anti-Americanism in the world lies in the deep-rooted anti-modern tradition of Continental Europe.

Just as the Baathist movement lately of Iraq and still in power in Syria is a localized variant of European fascism, the broader anti-Americanism currently fashionable on all continents comes ultimately from what some have called the Industrial Counter-Revolution. This is a comprehensive category for the various reactions in Europe against the program of the Industrial and Democratic Revolutions, or liberalism in the classical sense -- individualism, free markets, and technological and social progress.

Scholars such as Alan Macfarlane have found that individualistic social patterns (such as a preference for nuclear over extended families) have been very deep-seated in England, going back at least to the 14th century, while the reverse has been true in Continental Europe up to the Industrial Revolution.

This might suggest that both fascism and communism emerged on the European continent as a search for the lost security (at the expense of individual independence) of the extended family under the patriarchal rule of the paterfamilias in the traditional Continental society shattered by the Industrial Revolution.

Another explanation, not mutually exclusive with the above, may lie in seeing the Holocaust not as an isolated instance of social madness, but the latter half of a great historical cycle beginning with the emancipation of Europe's Jews during the Napoleonic Wars.

Although the Anglosphere began the Industrial Revolution in the 17th century, the period roughly from 1830 through 1930 saw a very rapid expansion of that revolution in Western Europe, and most particularly in German-speaking Europe. This expansion resulted in the emergence of a brilliant and dynamic civilization.

Given the prominence of Jewish Europeans in that civilization, it must be asked whether one of its principal stimuli was not the excitement of mutual discovery, in which newly emancipated Jews brought their analytical skills honed by their tradition of scholarship and debate, while accessing the much wider world of Western science, literature, and scholarship from which they had previously been closed off?

How can we calculate how much more dynamism was added by the everyday interaction of people who had previously been kept in parallel and uncommunicative spheres? The Germanosphere, including not just the Second Reich, but Austria-Hungary, German Switzerland, and the German-speaking communities of Eastern Europe and the Americas, really might better be dubbed the Judaeo-Germanosphere during that period.

Continental European Jews, because they owed their very presence in the larger civilization to the values of liberalism and modernism, were one of the first and most obvious targets of the Industrial Counter-Revolution.

The collapse of globalization and consequent rise of totalitarianism set the stage for the end of the great Judaeo-German hybrid civilization of Europe and its French counterpart. Those European Jews who were left alive at the end of the war overwhelmingly desired to leave, and they left to two destinations: Israel, and the Anglosphere.

With this emigration, on top of the previous great Jewish emigration to London and New York in the late 19th century, much of the energy, creativity and contributions of European Jews were given to the Anglosphere rather than the Continent. The cost to the Continent, and the benefits to the Anglosphere has never, to my knowledge, been calculated. The cost might never be calculable, but it is real.

Continental Europeans, helped by the Marshall Plan and American investment, rebuilt their countries with vigor after 1945. Led by the last generations to mature in the environment of the hybrid Jewish-European civilization, Europe seemed to pick up where it left off in 1933.[/BLUE]

Gradually, however, Europe seemed to run out of creativity, in everything from arts, to academia, to demographic vigor, to the will to political reform. Endless rehashing of elsewhere-discredited Marxism replaced creative political thought. Overt fascism and national chauvinism were banned, but a new Euro-chauvinism took its place, loudly proclaiming the superiority of European ways over crude American ones -- a new chauvinism on a wider scale, based like the old national chauvinism primarily on resentment.

It may be coincidence, but these new generations are the ones who grew up without the experience of studying, working and socializing with substantial numbers of Jews. Can this have no effect on politics?

Consider that the current war has seen the rapid re-emergence of the classical anti-Semitic themes in Europe, and coming from the same classes and types that supported the previous anti-globalization revolt of the 1920s and 1930s. The whitewashing of anti-Semitism as "anti-Zionism" grows more and more transparent by the day. French television has begun to adopt the terminology of the Vichy propagandists in reporting on the "Anglo-American attack" on Iraq. "Neo-con" serves the same code-word duty that "rootless cosmopolite" did in Stalin's anti-Jewish purges.

The widespread anti-Americanism in the world, of which Continental Europe is the ultimate source, has almost nothing to do with the character of President George W. Bush or the current administration, or other such cosmetic issues.

The modern world was first carried forward by two great civilizations. The Anglosphere was one. The dynamic industrializing culture of 19th century Continental Europe, to which the spark of the Judaeo-Christian encounter was so important, was the other. That culture committed suicide in the '30s. Perhaps its successor is not the revival of that culture, but rather its zombie.

In considering the Holocaust, most attention has been given to its direct victims, as is appropriate. However, we must also consider that it was a form of self-administered lobotomy for Continental European culture.

It would not be surprising if the twin anti-modernist themes of anti-Semitism and anti-Americanism, now rapidly coalescing into a single nasty mess visible in many of the pro-Saddam demonstrations of the past year, become once again the predominant political-cultural theme in Western Continental Europe, overwhelming the decent and positive forces there that had previously prevailed.

And we should not be surprised if such people hate us.

 

[musicman]

What an interesting read!

I think something else has to be factored in as well, though. Postwar European nations prospered and thrived in a freak, alternate reality - in which they had to expend neither blood nor treasure in their own defense. Once the Soviet threat evaporated, it became easy to feel that they had been above it all - to forget that the crude American gunslinger had, in fact, saved their asses. People thus divorced from reality are susceptible to foolishness in all its forms, as we are seeing. I'm beginning to wonder if we really did them any favors.

Charity without self-determination leaves the recipient contemptuous of the giver.

 

[Annie]

What an interesting read!

I think something else has to be factored in as well, though. Postwar European nations prospered and thrived in a freak, alternate reality - in which they had to expend neither blood nor treasure in their own defense. Once the Soviet threat evaporated, it became easy to feel that they had been above it all - to forget that the crude American gunslinger had, in fact, saved their asses. People thus divorced from reality are susceptible to foolishness in all its forms, as we are seeing. I'm beginning to wonder if we really did them any favors.

Charity without self-determination leaves the recipient contemptuous of the giver.

All you wrote I agree with. It has left them with a feeling of superiority, which is not only undeserved, but also misplaced. It will be interesting to see where it all leads to.

 

[Harmageddon]

Originally posted by Kathianne:
nternational
Anglosphere: Why do they hate us?

By JAMES C. BENNETT....

:crutch:
This piece is so full of crap I find it amusing I actually have to point it out.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but this piece of propaganda actually proclaims that without Jews, we're history? Excuse me, but that seems to border on fascist proclamations of greatness. . . you may remember the "ubermensch" or Aryan that was raised to a divine status under Hitler - this reeks of the same insanity. Seriously, Jews, Buddhists, Atheists, I don't care what distinction you will try to make, "there are things that make all of us the same. . . you, me, my brother Jake, everybody people, EVERYBODY!"

So I've gotten history completely wrong it seems. . . I never realized that Jews are the sole reason for European greatness in the old days. O man, what have we done? Please, will they not return and wash away my ignorance with their divine glory?

Originally posted by musicman:
Postwar European nations prospered and thrived in a freak, alternate reality - in which they had to expend neither blood nor treasure in their own defense. Once the Soviet threat evaporated, it became easy to feel that they had been above it all - to forget that the crude American gunslinger had, in fact, saved their asses. People thus divorced from reality are susceptible to foolishness in all its forms, as we are seeing. I'm beginning to wonder if we really did them any favors.

Yeah. Whatever.
It's a mirror you're watching dude - that means what you see is actually yourself. Pretty disturbing huh?

Originally posted by Kathianne:
All you wrote I agree with. It has left them with a feeling of superiority, which is not only undeserved, but also misplaced. It will be interesting to see where it all leads to.

Excuzes moi, but who's playing "we're the man" again?
I believe it is America actually, that is trying to rule the world.
Nevermind the fact it's not going to work, but rephrasing the whole mess in Iraq to some "European's think they are the greatest" is just plain idiocy.

I was expecting a more serious view on world affairs than this.

 

[Bullypulpit]

"Why they hate us..." has nothing to do with our cultural values. It has to do with our policies in the Middle East over the last 50+ years. The genius of Osama bin Laden, and others like him, lies in their ability to mobilize and radicalize their base. They do this rooted, not in a hatred of western culture, but rather a love of God. They have cast the invasion of Iraq, and before that the presence of US troops in Saudi Arabia, Qatar, Kuwait, Oman and others as an attack on Islam. In addition, they see the regimes in the aforementioned countries as the apostate puppets of the west. According to the Qu'ran, it is thus the duty of Muslims to resist such percieved attacks by any means at their disposal. It is from this wellspring that we hear the cries for jihad.

For more than fifty years America, and other western powers, have propped up the regimes of the Gulf states in order to ensure the free flow of oil from the Persian Gulf. This has led to western support for oppressive and dictatorial regimes in the region, and helped to spark anti-western and anti-American sentiment throughout the region. Add to that the presence of foreign troops in such close proximity to many of Islam's holiest sites, and you have a recipe for unrest, insurgency and terrorism, all in the name of God.

The radical mullah's of Iran, Saudi Arabia, Iraq, and elsewhere...The Osama bin Laden's and others of their ilk, may find some of our values to be offensive, but they are not the source of their hatred for America and the west. That source lies in the percieved attacks on Islam, and until the west, America in particular, understands this and moves to address these issues the terror wil continue unabated and with no end in sight.

 

[Harmageddon]

Originally posted by Bullypulpit:
"Why they hate us..." has nothing to do with our cultural values. It has to do with our policies in the Middle East over the last 50+ years....

My thoughts exactly.

 

[sitarro]

"Why they hate us..." has nothing to do with our cultural values. It has to do with our policies in the Middle East over the last 50+ years. The genius of Osama bin Laden, and others like him, lies in their ability to mobilize and radicalize their base. They do this rooted, not in a hatred of western culture, but rather a love of God. They have cast the invasion of Iraq, and before that the presence of US troops in Saudi Arabia, Qatar, Kuwait, Oman and others as an attack on Islam. In addition, they see the regimes in the aforementioned countries as the apostate puppets of the west. According to the Qu'ran, it is thus the duty of Muslims to resist such percieved attacks by any means at their disposal. It is from this wellspring that we hear the cries for jihad.

For more than fifty years America, and other western powers, have propped up the regimes of the Gulf states in order to ensure the free flow of oil from the Persian Gulf. This has led to western support for oppressive and dictatorial regimes in the region, and helped to spark anti-western and anti-American sentiment throughout the region. Add to that the presence of foreign troops in such close proximity to many of Islam's holiest sites, and you have a recipe for unrest, insurgency and terrorism, all in the name of God.

The radical mullah's of Iran, Saudi Arabia, Iraq, and elsewhere...The Osama bin Laden's and others of their ilk, may find some of our values to be offensive, but they are not the source of their hatred for America and the west. That source lies in the percieved attacks on Islam, and until the west, America in particular, understands this and moves to address these issues the terror wil continue unabated and with no end in sight.

It couldn't have anything to do with the fact that the haters are generally stuck in the 14th century, are irrational, and insane?

These dimwits have nothing but oil to offer the world and they have been lucky enough to have the West discover, drill for it, and buy it from their now ultra wealthy dumbasses after they stole it back from the people that found it in the first place.

Don't try to justify or even rationalize irrational behavior by idiots that worship a false God that promises them 72 virgins when they kill others and keep the women in their lives oppressed when they are here on earth.

They also screw little boys.

 

[dilloduck]

My thoughts exactly.

American culture is rife with Judeo-Christian values. Where is their tolerance? If America responded with the same logic that the radical Islamists have, there would be no mosques nor muslims in America and we would have created a 1,000 mile buffer zone around Jeruselem with no scent of Islam allowed within it. The US has not propped up any Syrian government and look what a wonderful place that is. Iran could very well have been a Soviet satellite had it not been for US influence. You think they would have preferred soviet rule?

 

[rtwngAvngr]

"Why they hate us..." has nothing to do with our cultural values. It has to do with our policies in the Middle East over the last 50+ years. The genius of Osama bin Laden, and others like him, lies in their ability to mobilize and radicalize their base. They do this rooted, not in a hatred of western culture, but rather a love of God. They have cast the invasion of Iraq, and before that the presence of US troops in Saudi Arabia, Qatar, Kuwait, Oman and others as an attack on Islam. In addition, they see the regimes in the aforementioned countries as the apostate puppets of the west. According to the Qu'ran, it is thus the duty of Muslims to resist such percieved attacks by any means at their disposal. It is from this wellspring that we hear the cries for jihad.

For more than fifty years America, and other western powers, have propped up the regimes of the Gulf states in order to ensure the free flow of oil from the Persian Gulf. This has led to western support for oppressive and dictatorial regimes in the region, and helped to spark anti-western and anti-American sentiment throughout the region. Add to that the presence of foreign troops in such close proximity to many of Islam's holiest sites, and you have a recipe for unrest, insurgency and terrorism, all in the name of God.

The radical mullah's of Iran, Saudi Arabia, Iraq, and elsewhere...The Osama bin Laden's and others of their ilk, may find some of our values to be offensive, but they are not the source of their hatred for America and the west. That source lies in the percieved attacks on Islam, and until the west, America in particular, understands this and moves to address these issues the terror wil continue unabated and with no end in sight.

How do we address those issues? Allow Iran to develop nukes? Is that a good idea? Give us one concrete suggestion to address your concerns and let's talk about it.

 

[musicman]

Yeah. Whatever.
It's a mirror you're watching dude - that means what you see is actually yourself. Pretty disturbing huh?

This is complete gibberish. Do you have anything comprehensible to say? Refute ANY ONE of my points. You can't.

 

[nosarcasm]

had to expend neither blood nor treasure in their own defense

http://www.cbo.gov/showdoc.cfm?index=2976&sequence=2

 

[musicman]

http://www.cbo.gov/showdoc.cfm?index=2976&sequence=2

But, you're only helping to prove my point. Percentage of GDP spent on national defense is all well and good (although the very site you post shows that most European nations lagged well behind ther U.S. in that regard), but let's look at stark reality. How ready was, say, Germany, to repel the only truly serious threat it faced - invasion by the Soviet Union? The phrase, "using a teaspoon to turn back the tide" seems to apply pretty well here. In the real world, America saved Europe's asses, and we've received some pretty shabby treatment in return.

Please understand that I'm not attacking you, nosarcasm - nor am I indulging in braggadocio. It is only by an accident of birth that my folks arrived here from Germany, Ireland, and England a few generations ago. But, the hard fact is that Europe only enjoyed postwar survival - let alone prosperity - through the good graces of the United States (which - admittedly - was acting in ITS own interests).

 

[nosarcasm]

The link illustrates it was and is a cooperative defense initiative.


I appreciate the US help. It also was US self interest that
it would not stand alone in a world of enforced communism.
I guess we pretty much agree on the facts but not on the
interpretation.

 

[musicman]

The link illustrates it was and is a cooperative defense initiative.


I appreciate the US help. It also was US self interest that
it would not stand alone in a world of enforced communism.
I guess we pretty much agree on the facts but not on the
interpretation.

Close enough. Just didn't want you to think I was attacking or breast-beating. I am humble and grateful.

 

[dilloduck]

The link illustrates it was and is a cooperative defense initiative.


I appreciate the US help. It also was US self interest that
it would not stand alone in a world of enforced communism.
I guess we pretty much agree on the facts but not on the
interpretation.

Very true--when the US acted in it's self interest in WWII, much the world benefitted. Does that make it any less of a sacrifice? Now America is acting in it's self interest in the war on terror--how much of the world is benefitting from this new sacrifice and at the same time condeming us?

 

[theim]

Excuzes moi, but who's playing "we're the man" again?

Living in a small and insignificant nation like the Netherlands, I can only imagine how the nationalism of others must get to you.

Europe is such a non-factor in the world, it really is incredible. And sad. Kind of like watching your parents grow old and senile. A bunch of bloated welfare-states whose citizenry riot when asked to work 40 hours a week without a 6 week vacation, whose "post-Christian" "family planning" birthrates have fallen so low they are literally dying out, and who are feeling the press of increased Muslim immigration.

I believe it is America actually, that is trying to rule the world.

It's quite amusing you make such a proclamation at a time when America is fighting someone who openly states that they want to rule the world.

Nevermind the fact it's not going to work, but rephrasing the whole mess in Iraq to some "European's think they are the greatest" is just plain idiocy.

Where the hell is this coming from?

I was expecting a more serious view on world affairs than this.

Forgive, I can translate it into more serious Euro-leftist:

BU$H IS TEH EVIL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! AMERIKKKANS HATE BABIES AND WANT TO CONKER TEH WORLD ALL FOR TEH OIL CUZ TEH JOOOOOOOOOOS TOLD THEM 2!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Harmageddon]

Originally posted by theim:
Living in a small and insignificant nation like the Netherlands, I can only imagine how the nationalism of others must get to you.

The Netherlands happens to be the insignificant nation that has created the Euro, which is about to wipe off the remains of the American dollar of the face of the earth.

Originally posted by theim:
It's quite amusing you make such a proclamation at a time when America is fighting someone who openly states that they want to rule the world.

Could you back that assertion up with a link? Evidence?
Actually, America is fighting itself, and pretty effectively too.
Did you know over half your countrymen do no longer support the Iraq war,
nor the run up to it? Seems you've got enemies in your backyard.
They may even want to take over your world.

Originally posted by theim:
Where the hell is this coming from?

From the article, nimbwit.
When you assert that Europe is behind the Muslim threat, then we are the ultimate benefactors. Hence, the greatest threat to the US.
Be afraid, be very afraid.

Originally posted by theim:
Forgive, I can translate it into more serious Euro-leftist:RANT

Ahhh, the typical reply of the neo-fascist.
Dance, baby, dance.

 

[Harmageddon]

Originally posted by musicman:
This is complete gibberish. Do you have anything comprehensible to say? Refute ANY ONE of my points. You can't.

No I can't, because you didn't say anything.
But let's get over your nothingness once again, if you prefer.

Originally posted by musicman:
Postwar European nations prospered and thrived in a freak, alternate reality - in which they had to expend neither blood nor treasure in their own defense.

Postwar America prospered and thrived in a freak, alternate reality - in which they had to expend neither blood nor treasure in their own defence.
But rather, expended both blood and treasure at the behalf of the slaughter of millions of Vietnamese.

Originally posted by musicman:
Once the Soviet threat evaporated, it became easy to feel that they had been above it all - to forget that the crude American gunslinger had, in fact, saved their asses.

Once the Soviet threat evaporated, it became easy to feel that they had been above it all - to forget that the crude Mujahadeen warriors had, in fact, saved their asses.
That's what you would hear from the Mujahadeen. Similar, no?
That is one reason why both America and the Mujahadeen radical spin-offs would like to bathe in the blood of their adversaries: for both think they have conquered the Soviet threat.

And the Soviet's were not even a real threat, since Rummie's teamB had started a large smearcampaign that would later be used as evidence to convince Reagan of the need for an agressive stance towards the Soviets.
In Afghanistan, where the Soviet army was defeated, both Mujahadeen and America claimed victory. Whereas the Soviet system was already on a long downwards trajectory, and had rotted from within. It fell apart by itself, not because of the Mujahadeen, not because of America.

And Europe?
Europe says fuck you radical bitches, the American bitches, the Muslim bitches, it's all a bunch of agressive losers that have apparently never started a World War before. Let's just make money off of both sides for as long as they're not directly at each other's throat first. And after that, o well, we're in for a showdown between two retarded species. Let's enjoy the slaughter and recolonize their remains thereafter.

Originally posted by musicman:
People thus divorced from reality are susceptible to foolishness in all its forms, as we are seeing. I'm beginning to wonder if we really did them any favors.

Americans thus divorced from reality are susceptible to foolishness in all it's forms, as we are seeing. I'm beginning to wonder if we really should have started the American colony in the first place.

So you see.
You said nothing.

 

[theHawk]

Tell us how you REALLY feel Harmo !!!

:cof:

 

[musicman]

Postwar America prospered and thrived in a freak, alternate reality - in which they had to expend neither blood nor treasure in their own defence.

You're retarded.

And the Soviet's were not even a real threat

You're a drooling imbecile.

And Europe?
Europe says fuck you radical bitches, the American bitches, the Muslim bitches, it's all a bunch of agressive losers that have apparently never started a World War before. Let's just make money off of both sides

Ah, at long last - a candid, coherent, and substantive thought! What a shame your refreshing honesty is not shared by the squirming maggots who wilt in the glare of the Oil-for-Food investigation. You have just summed up the true attitude of cynical, ungrateful, amoral Post-Christian Europe. But, soon you'll be calling your rotting continent by a new name:

Post - American Defense Europe.

Lotsa luck, bitch.