Woman prays to Jesus during a Bear Attack

[thebrucebeat]

I find it interesting that your take on this is that God probably didn't want to kill these little children but because vain old Elisha ordered him to God didn't have any choice in the matter......do realize that if God actually worked this way half the people who post here would be dead already?......

That wasn't my take on the story. I was suggesting that the God described in the Bible, by Iron Age, nomadic desert religious zealots, thought that ol' Elisha was justified in cursing the 42 kids (teens, men, whoever) with death by bear-mauling because Elisha was sensitive about his male-pattern baldness and so He sent two bears to do just that - is not the loving, merciful, just, forgiving God you and your brethren make Him out to be.

How do reconcile this idea of a loving God who embodies mercy and justice with the cruel, capricious God described in the Bible who has people mass murdered by bears for teasing someone about their lack of hair?

my take on it was that he knew the boys were actually at their peak of goodness and decided to get rid of them before things got even worse.....

You mean they were ripe and at their most flavorful?

 

[Steven_R]

He was a prophet and they were mocking him. Children? Youths in their 20's perhaps but children? No...

23 And he went up from thence unto Bethel: and as he was going up by the way, there came forth little children out of the city, and mocked him, and said unto him, Go up, thou bald head; go up, thou bald head.

24 And he turned back, and looked on them, and cursed them in the name of the Lord. And there came forth two she bears out of the wood, and tare forty and two children of them.
25 And he went from thence to mount Carmel, and from thence he returned to Samaria.


Says children right there in the King James Version. 2 Kings 2:23-25 KJV - And he went up from thence unto Bethel: - Bible Gateway

[MENTION=44543]Steven_R[/MENTION]

Did you do a word study like I asked you to? Did you look up all the words for children in Strong's?

2 Kings 2:24 And he turned back, and looked on them, and cursed them in the name of the LORD. And there came forth two she bears out of the wood, and tare forty and two children (h3206 יֶלֶד yeled) of them.

Genesis 4:23 And Lamech said unto his wives, Adah and Zillah, Hear my voice; ye wives of Lamech, hearken unto my speech: for I have slain a man to my wounding, and a young man (h3206 יֶלֶד yeled) to my hurt.


Just because you can read doesn't mean you know how the word was used. It is possibly a play on words and the translators are being very literal because they don't wish to make a mistake. The word is used figuratively of apostates and God is probably calling the young men children and delivering a response of judgment instead.

Short of learning Hebrew or Greek, and I simply don't care enough about this subject to do that, I'd still be relying on someone else's translations. If we're going down this path of words mean multiple things depending on context and the translator, why even bother pretending that the Bible really is the inherent word of God if it is in English given that unless we're reading the original languages we can't be sure of what the passage really says or means?

 

[DriftingSand]

"I could hear its teeth going through my scalp": Watch woman tell of surviving savage bear attack

Mum-of-two Terri Franna, 45, caught a pack of five bears rummaging through her garbage cans outside her home in Orlando on Saturday.

One of the animals lunged at the helpless mum and sunk its teeth deep into her scalp as it tried to drag her away.

But desperate mum Terri managed to fight back and free herself. She was raced to hospital where she ended 30 staples and 10 stitches to stop the bleeding.

Remarkably she survived the ordeal and law-enforcement officials later spotted and killed four bears which they found roaming the area and acting aggressively.

Terri, who had just returned home to find the animals in her garden, told how she believed she was facing certain death.

She told local TV station WESH-TV: "I could hear her teeth marks going through my scalp.

"The bear was growling and drooling. It was just terrifying."

During the interview, Speaking with fresh scars still visible on her face, she added: "I just thought 'God, please, this can't be the end. It can't end like this.' I literally heard Jesus say to me, 'It's OK, you will be at peace with us,.

"I replied, 'Please, my kids need me.' Then the bear released my head. She let go of my head and I knew I had to get up off that ground and get away, otherwise I was not going to make it."

WATCH: Bear attack survivor tells of horror - "I could hear its teeth going through my scalp" - Mirror Online

I wonder how many people pray during a life-death situation....and die...so we never hear if they prayed or not?

That means that it's impossible for anyone to claim that prayer in those types of situations does NOT work.

 

[amrchaos]

Jeremiah, never think you are invincible. You are not above anyone else. Everyone needs to use common sense and be careful. Wild animals do not discriminate.

I am with Jeremiah on this one!!!

Think about it, if we ever get attacked by wild animals, Jeremiah could have a bible sit in with them while we run away!!

That is what one calls a"Win-win" situation, right Jeremiah?

 

[amrchaos]

So if she were mauled to death then what would that mean about her prayers?

The fact that she was mauled and not healed by Jesus tends to suggest how much intervention Jesus gave her.

Don't mind me-- am just an obnoxious little atheist pointing out the obvious. Funny thing, this remind me of a story with one of my devout neighbors.


When I was a teen, I used to cut the lawn of my across the street neighbor.
One time, the neighbor related a story about her belief in a miracle that happened to her .

It so happened that she was once diagnosed with a disease that was suppose to end her life within a year. So she prayed and prayed and eventually when she had a return visit, the doctor noted that the disease was no longer present. So she proclaimed Jesus healed her.

I told her "Thats good! Now you no longer have to take all that medication for your blood pressure, diabetes and pain!"

That is when she said "Are you kidding? I still have high blood pressure and diabetes. And If I didn't take the pain pills I couldn't even get out of bed!!"


Point of the story, If Jesus is going to heal you, wouldn't Jesus heal you completely?
Thus if Jesus is going to save you from harm, wouldn't you be unharmed?

(There is a little more to the story. But I will leave that for another day.)

 

[Chuckt]

23 And he went up from thence unto Bethel: and as he was going up by the way, there came forth little children out of the city, and mocked him, and said unto him, Go up, thou bald head; go up, thou bald head.

24 And he turned back, and looked on them, and cursed them in the name of the Lord. And there came forth two she bears out of the wood, and tare forty and two children of them.
25 And he went from thence to mount Carmel, and from thence he returned to Samaria.


Says children right there in the King James Version. 2 Kings 2:23-25 KJV - And he went up from thence unto Bethel: - Bible Gateway

[MENTION=44543]Steven_R[/MENTION]

Did you do a word study like I asked you to? Did you look up all the words for children in Strong's?

2 Kings 2:24 And he turned back, and looked on them, and cursed them in the name of the LORD. And there came forth two she bears out of the wood, and tare forty and two children (h3206 יֶלֶד yeled) of them.

Genesis 4:23 And Lamech said unto his wives, Adah and Zillah, Hear my voice; ye wives of Lamech, hearken unto my speech: for I have slain a man to my wounding, and a young man (h3206 יֶלֶד yeled) to my hurt.


Just because you can read doesn't mean you know how the word was used. It is possibly a play on words and the translators are being very literal because they don't wish to make a mistake. The word is used figuratively of apostates and God is probably calling the young men children and delivering a response of judgment instead.

Short of learning Hebrew or Greek, and I simply don't care enough about this subject to do that, I'd still be relying on someone else's translations. If we're going down this path of words mean multiple things depending on context and the translator, why even bother pretending that the Bible really is the inherent word of God if it is in English given that unless we're reading the original languages we can't be sure of what the passage really says or means?

But I have a better understanding of what I'm reading so there is no excuse...

 

[amrchaos]

Then there is the interesting problem concerning whats best for the believer.

If anything, the best thing for a believer is to receive his/her salvation and go to heaven immediately. But in order to do that, the believer must die.

So for this woman and Jeremiah(concerning his bear story), if Jesus did save them, then Jesus did not do them any favors. If Jesus was going to do what was best for them, they would be bear food--not conveying their "beliefs" of Jesus saving them to us!!

A very interesting viewpoint. If Jesus wish to do what is best for believers, Jesus would have commissioned the bears to slay the believers. All so the believers souls can come home to Jesus.

 

[PostmodernProph]

That wasn't my take on the story. I was suggesting that the God described in the Bible, by Iron Age, nomadic desert religious zealots, thought that ol' Elisha was justified in cursing the 42 kids (teens, men, whoever) with death by bear-mauling because Elisha was sensitive about his male-pattern baldness and so He sent two bears to do just that - is not the loving, merciful, just, forgiving God you and your brethren make Him out to be.

How do reconcile this idea of a loving God who embodies mercy and justice with the cruel, capricious God described in the Bible who has people mass murdered by bears for teasing someone about their lack of hair?

my take on it was that he knew the boys were actually at their peak of goodness and decided to get rid of them before things got even worse.....

You mean they were ripe and at their most flavorful?

well, I was thinking along the line of apples and barrels, but in a slightly different manner.....

 

[PostmodernProph]

23 And he went up from thence unto Bethel: and as he was going up by the way, there came forth little children out of the city, and mocked him, and said unto him, Go up, thou bald head; go up, thou bald head.

24 And he turned back, and looked on them, and cursed them in the name of the Lord. And there came forth two she bears out of the wood, and tare forty and two children of them.
25 And he went from thence to mount Carmel, and from thence he returned to Samaria.


Says children right there in the King James Version. 2 Kings 2:23-25 KJV - And he went up from thence unto Bethel: - Bible Gateway

[MENTION=44543]Steven_R[/MENTION]

Did you do a word study like I asked you to? Did you look up all the words for children in Strong's?

2 Kings 2:24 And he turned back, and looked on them, and cursed them in the name of the LORD. And there came forth two she bears out of the wood, and tare forty and two children (h3206 יֶלֶד yeled) of them.

Genesis 4:23 And Lamech said unto his wives, Adah and Zillah, Hear my voice; ye wives of Lamech, hearken unto my speech: for I have slain a man to my wounding, and a young man (h3206 יֶלֶד yeled) to my hurt.


Just because you can read doesn't mean you know how the word was used. It is possibly a play on words and the translators are being very literal because they don't wish to make a mistake. The word is used figuratively of apostates and God is probably calling the young men children and delivering a response of judgment instead.

Short of learning Hebrew or Greek, and I simply don't care enough about this subject to do that, I'd still be relying on someone else's translations. If we're going down this path of words mean multiple things depending on context and the translator, why even bother pretending that the Bible really is the inherent word of God if it is in English given that unless we're reading the original languages we can't be sure of what the passage really says or means?

no you wouldn't.....nowdays we have Greek and Hebrew interlinears online free for anyone to use....we know more about the original text now than at anytime in history.....

 

[PostmodernProph]

Then there is the interesting problem concerning whats best for the believer.

If anything, the best thing for a believer is to receive his/her salvation and go to heaven immediately. But in order to do that, the believer must die.

So for this woman and Jeremiah(concerning his bear story), if Jesus did save them, then Jesus did not do them any favors. If Jesus was going to do what was best for them, they would be bear food--not conveying their "beliefs" of Jesus saving them to us!!

A very interesting viewpoint. If Jesus wish to do what is best for believers, Jesus would have commissioned the bears to slay the believers. All so the believers souls can come home to Jesus.

but we also have an obligation to instruct the unbelievers.....Jesus didn't keep her alive for her sake....he did it for yours.....

 

[MrMax]

I'm mulling it over but I think I like the story where she survives.

She called upon the name of the LORD and he heard her cry. That is what I get from it. I'm glad she survived!

Maybe the bear just didn't like the taste of her shampoo?

And why would "the Lord" allow a bear to attack a mother in the first place?

 

[rightwinger]

Bears do not discriminate between believers and non-believers.

I guess they taste the same

 

[thebrucebeat]

[MENTION=44543]Steven_R[/MENTION]

Did you do a word study like I asked you to? Did you look up all the words for children in Strong's?

2 Kings 2:24 And he turned back, and looked on them, and cursed them in the name of the LORD. And there came forth two she bears out of the wood, and tare forty and two children (h3206 יֶלֶד yeled) of them.

Genesis 4:23 And Lamech said unto his wives, Adah and Zillah, Hear my voice; ye wives of Lamech, hearken unto my speech: for I have slain a man to my wounding, and a young man (h3206 יֶלֶד yeled) to my hurt.


Just because you can read doesn't mean you know how the word was used. It is possibly a play on words and the translators are being very literal because they don't wish to make a mistake. The word is used figuratively of apostates and God is probably calling the young men children and delivering a response of judgment instead.

Short of learning Hebrew or Greek, and I simply don't care enough about this subject to do that, I'd still be relying on someone else's translations. If we're going down this path of words mean multiple things depending on context and the translator, why even bother pretending that the Bible really is the inherent word of God if it is in English given that unless we're reading the original languages we can't be sure of what the passage really says or means?

no you wouldn't.....nowdays we have Greek and Hebrew interlinears online free for anyone to use....we know more about the original text now than at anytime in history.....

Absolutely true, and with all that the case trying to be made for the children in the story being adults still fails.
Heralded scholars of many different traditions are assembled to create the best translations of the bible. Some are more conservative than others. All of the translations come to the conclusion that the taunting characters are children.
All of them.
Why would you think that was the case?

 

[PostmodernProph]

Short of learning Hebrew or Greek, and I simply don't care enough about this subject to do that, I'd still be relying on someone else's translations. If we're going down this path of words mean multiple things depending on context and the translator, why even bother pretending that the Bible really is the inherent word of God if it is in English given that unless we're reading the original languages we can't be sure of what the passage really says or means?

no you wouldn't.....nowdays we have Greek and Hebrew interlinears online free for anyone to use....we know more about the original text now than at anytime in history.....

Absolutely true, and with all that the case trying to be made for the children in the story being adults still fails.
Heralded scholars of many different traditions are assembled to create the best translations of the bible. Some are more conservative than others. All of the translations come to the conclusion that the taunting characters are children.
All of them.
Why would you think that was the case?

I'm still trying to understand why you think it matters.....God decided what he wanted to do and he did it.....he had his reasons and some here think they knew better, even though they not only don't know what the "children" irrespective of their age, intended in their minds to do.....but also have no idea what might have been observable to human eyes 3000 years ago.....

the criticism we are seeing in this thread has nothing to do with what age they were or what they were doing.....the criticism only hinges on whether you like or dislike God......

 

[amrchaos]

Then there is the interesting problem concerning whats best for the believer.

If anything, the best thing for a believer is to receive his/her salvation and go to heaven immediately. But in order to do that, the believer must die.

So for this woman and Jeremiah(concerning his bear story), if Jesus did save them, then Jesus did not do them any favors. If Jesus was going to do what was best for them, they would be bear food--not conveying their "beliefs" of Jesus saving them to us!!

A very interesting viewpoint. If Jesus wish to do what is best for believers, Jesus would have commissioned the bears to slay the believers. All so the believers souls can come home to Jesus.

but we also have an obligation to instruct the unbelievers.....Jesus didn't keep her alive for her sake....he did it for yours.....

I doubt that, since such a story only convinces me even more that there is no consistency in what the christian belief does for each believer.

Think about it, If the main goal of believing is salvation and there already believers here to carry out the works of Christ, why keep these devout faithful ones (that is, the woman and Jeremiah) here? Their efforts and stories has not convinced me. Instead, their stories has caused me to doubt the validity of Christianity even more.

 

[Book of Jeremiah]

King David was referred to as a boy, a lad, at age 25 - which is when he was anointed to be King.

Thus Jesse made seven of his sons pass before Samuel. But Samuel said to Jesse, “The LORD has not chosen these.” And Samuel said to Jesse, “Are these all the children?” And he said, “There remains yet the youngest, and behold, he is tending the sheep.” Then Samuel said to Jesse, “Send and bring him; for we will not sit down until he comes here.” So he sent and brought him in. Now he was ruddy, with beautiful eyes and a handsome appearance. And the LORD said, “Arise, anoint him; for this is he.” Then Samuel took the horn of oil and anointed him in the midst of his brothers; and the Spirit of the LORD came mightily upon David from that day forward. And Samuel arose and went to Ramah. 1 Sam 16:10-13 (NAS95S)


You will note that King David's older brothers ( men in their thirties and older ) were referred to as "Children" by Samuel the prophet when he came there to anoint the person God had chosen.

You will also refer back to the story of Abraham and Isaac and note that he is referred to as a child... scholars believe he was in his twenties. He carried his own firewood.

See Genesis 22: 2

- Jeremiah

The only place I am seeing their ages is your say so.
Not overly compelling.

If you had studied the Scriptures it would be, Bruce. I see the evidence throughout both Torah and New Testament..

Bruce, you have a bad habit of misquoting others. I didn't state their individual ages. For the second time here... I said, between ages of 17 and 35 yrs of age... which proves they were not "children" as suggested earlier.... make a note of that one please.

 

[PostmodernProph]

Then there is the interesting problem concerning whats best for the believer.

If anything, the best thing for a believer is to receive his/her salvation and go to heaven immediately. But in order to do that, the believer must die.

So for this woman and Jeremiah(concerning his bear story), if Jesus did save them, then Jesus did not do them any favors. If Jesus was going to do what was best for them, they would be bear food--not conveying their "beliefs" of Jesus saving them to us!!

A very interesting viewpoint. If Jesus wish to do what is best for believers, Jesus would have commissioned the bears to slay the believers. All so the believers souls can come home to Jesus.

but we also have an obligation to instruct the unbelievers.....Jesus didn't keep her alive for her sake....he did it for yours.....

I doubt that, since such a story only convinces me even more that there is no consistency in what the christian belief does for each believer.

Think about it, If the main goal of believing is salvation and there already believers here to carry out the works of Christ, why keep these devout faithful ones (that is, the woman and Jeremiah) here? Their efforts and stories has not convinced me. Instead, their stories has caused me to doubt the validity of Christianity even more.

I've had children.....you can put the strained peas in the spoon, you can put the spoon in their mouths....but you can't make them eat it.....

as for what impact her survival has had, well.....a half dozen strangers, from all over the country, have just spent several days talking about it on this board.....I would consider that an impact.......

 

[Book of Jeremiah]

Great analogy, Postmodern Proph. wow....

 

[thebrucebeat]

King David was referred to as a boy, a lad, at age 25 - which is when he was anointed to be King.

Thus Jesse made seven of his sons pass before Samuel. But Samuel said to Jesse, “The LORD has not chosen these.” And Samuel said to Jesse, “Are these all the children?” And he said, “There remains yet the youngest, and behold, he is tending the sheep.” Then Samuel said to Jesse, “Send and bring him; for we will not sit down until he comes here.” So he sent and brought him in. Now he was ruddy, with beautiful eyes and a handsome appearance. And the LORD said, “Arise, anoint him; for this is he.” Then Samuel took the horn of oil and anointed him in the midst of his brothers; and the Spirit of the LORD came mightily upon David from that day forward. And Samuel arose and went to Ramah. 1 Sam 16:10-13 (NAS95S)


You will note that King David's older brothers ( men in their thirties and older ) were referred to as "Children" by Samuel the prophet when he came there to anoint the person God had chosen.

You will also refer back to the story of Abraham and Isaac and note that he is referred to as a child... scholars believe he was in his twenties. He carried his own firewood.

See Genesis 22: 2

- Jeremiah

The only place I am seeing their ages is your say so.
Not overly compelling.

If you had studied the Scriptures it would be, Bruce. I see the evidence throughout both Torah and New Testament..

Bruce, you have a bad habit of misquoting others. I didn't state their individual ages. For the second time here... I said, between ages of 17 and 35 yrs of age... which proves they were not "children" as suggested earlier.... make a note of that one please.

What is your favorite, most trusted translation?

 

[amrchaos]

but we also have an obligation to instruct the unbelievers.....Jesus didn't keep her alive for her sake....he did it for yours.....

I doubt that, since such a story only convinces me even more that there is no consistency in what the christian belief does for each believer.

Think about it, If the main goal of believing is salvation and there already believers here to carry out the works of Christ, why keep these devout faithful ones (that is, the woman and Jeremiah) here? Their efforts and stories has not convinced me. Instead, their stories has caused me to doubt the validity of Christianity even more.

I've had children.....you can put the strained peas in the spoon, you can put the spoon in their mouths....but you can't make them eat it.....

as for what impact her survival has had, well.....a half dozen strangers, from all over the country, have just spent several days talking about it on this board.....I would consider that an impact.......

In other words, the assumption that it was for me was correct despite the fact that I am not eating the peas? Maybe the truth could be(note, this is also an assumption) that they are not saved. There is more work for them to do. In other words, they are not able to reach heaven so Jesus gave them more time?

The above assumption would make more sense since the most seriously devout believers still die.

If the case was to convince the non-believers of the validity of Christianity, wouldn't keeping the most devout believers alive and in the prime of their lives be a bit non-refutable evidence. Remember, you posited the idea that believers are spared to continue their work. I am just adding the idea that the believers to do this already died.