Woman charged with raping boy, 14

[Agnapostate]

Your views WILL change when you have a child or when you get older. I used share your views and can attest to that fact that I had lots in common with my immature, controlling and abusive 25 year old boyfriend, when I was 16. We like me to wear the same clothes, we liked me to have certain hair styles. we both didn't like his friends or any other men talking or looking at me and most importantly, we liked to buy me booze and get me REALLY wasted.

The ad hominem fallacy is committed yet again. This is actually why I wish the aforementioned individual was involved in more public advocacy. He's an 82 year old psychologist with numerous children and grandchildren...and he supports the abolition of age restrictions. There's an individual who won't fall prey to personal attacks, or so I would hope.

At any rate, your argument is based on your own personal experience, and therefore cannot carry the same weight as widespread empirical evidence of the abilities of adolescents to make rational and informed decisions about their own lives and futures, as I'm sure you know. Personal experience is obviously too limited in scope and widespread in degree to function as empirical evidence to base policy formulation on.

 

[Said1]

Your views WILL change when you have a child or when you get older. I used share your views and can attest to that fact that I had lots in common with my immature, controlling and abusive 25 year old boyfriend, when I was 16. We like me to wear the same clothes, we liked me to have certain hair styles. we both didn't like his friends or any other men talking or looking at me and most importantly, we liked to buy me booze and get me REALLY wasted.

The ad hominem fallacy is committed yet again. This is actually why I wish the aforementioned individual was involved in more public advocacy. He's an 82 year old psychologist with numerous children and grandchildren...and he supports the abolition of age restrictions. There's an individual who won't fall prey to personal attacks, or so I would hope.

At any rate, your argument is based on your own personal experience, and therefore cannot carry the same weight as widespread empirical evidence of the abilities of adolescents to make rational and informed decisions about their own lives and futures, as I'm sure you know. Personal experience is obviously too limited in scope and widespread in degree to function as empirical evidence to base policy formulation on.

I generally do not use such phenomenological arguments, but as i said, I used to share such views, as ad hominem and fallacious as they are not. Furthermore, while you may not agree, there is wide spread empirical evidence supporting the facts that youth are not the best decision makers, are very often lacking foresight and have difficulty exercising impulse control. Contrary to what you might think, this is not personal attack as I'm sure you are familiar with the studies with which I refer as the person you mentioned above was refuting them and quoted them in his writing?

I'm sure you do not support total removal of age restrictions. Abolishing age restrictions in light of the sometimes predatory sexual nature of adults is lacking in foresight, unless you are not satisfied with empirical data on the subject of pedophilia and hold to the assertion that a 13 year old is perfectly able to consent to having sex with a 40 year old? What does the 82 year old have to say about that, I would be interested in reading his arguments with respect to the above mentioned topics.

At any rate, your argument that young adults having more decision making power is not invalid and the protective nature of parents can impede objectivity, but your age can contribute to your lack of objectivity with respect to the topic as well.

 

[LiveUninhibited]

I have felt this way about youth rights since I was 15 and first got involved with speech/debate. People told me my views would change as I got older, but they so far have not on that issue. Hopefully becoming a parent will not deprive me of rationality. Most parents do not have a realistic idea of what their teens are doing, let alone capable of and we shouldn't base policy on their emotional responses to their offspring's sexuality.

Your views WILL change when you have a child or when you get older. I used share your views and can attest to that fact that I had lots in common with my immature, controlling and abusive 25 year old boyfriend, when I was 16. We like me to wear the same clothes, we liked me to have certain hair styles. we both didn't like his friends or any other men talking or looking at me and most importantly, we liked to buy me booze and get me REALLY wasted.

I strongly doubt it. And in the likely scenario I do have kids I'd then probably be accused of abusing them if I were to argue this way publically because people are just that unsophisicated. At least the 80 year old Agna cites could use the, "I'm impotent," defense, but such a defense shouldn't be needed. Condemnation of somebody as immature when they're young and then a pedophile later in order to nullify their arguments isn't logical.

As for your anecdote, do you believe he should have gone to prison for having sex with you? I also find it interesting you cite him being "controlling" because he told you what to wear and how to do your hair, yet that's what controlling parents do to their 16-year-olds all the time.

But I should stress that anecdotes are more applicable to my side than yours. Anecdotes don't tell us anything statistically, but they can be used to show where there are exceptions. When we're talking about putting somebody in prison and imposing a life sentence in the sense of them being an outcast by labelling them a sex offender, we really should be paying attention to exceptions. You can say that most older men who have relationships with younger females are exploiting them. But that doesn't mean that this is always the case. In order for the standard of age for rape to be just, one would need to suppose that every relationship of that kind is exploitative. I can say with confidence that it is possible for a minority of 14 year olds to have healthy sexual relations with a guy over 18. And when the parents disapprove that should not ruin the life of the male.

 

[Said1]

I strongly doubt it. And in the likely scenario I do have kids I'd then probably be accused of abusing them if I were to argue this way publically because people are just that unsophisicated. At least the 80 year old Agna cites could use the, "I'm impotent," defense, but such a defense shouldn't be needed. Condemnation of somebody as immature when they're young and then a pedophile later in order to nullify their arguments isn't logical.

What's the man's name for heavens sake, I'd like to see his arguments.

As for your anecdote, do you believe he should have gone to prison for having sex with you? I also find it interesting you cite him being "controlling" because he told you what to wear and how to do your hair, yet that's what controlling parents do to their 16-year-olds all the time.

That's a good question, but no, I don't think he should have gone to jail. But, re-creating a parent-child like relationship with an adult and having sex with that same adult does not indicate maturity and good decision making. If anything, it's a clear indication that I had some pretty serious issues.

But I should stress that anecdotes are more applicable to my side than yours. Anecdotes don't tell us anything statistically, but they can be used to show where there are exceptions. When we're talking about putting somebody in prison and imposing a life sentence in the sense of them being an outcast by labelling them a sex offender, we really should be paying attention to exceptions. You can say that most older men who have relationships with younger females are exploiting them. But that doesn't mean that this is always the case. In order for the standard of age for rape to be just, one would need to suppose that every since relationship of that kind of exploitative. I can say with confidence that it is possible for a minority of 14 year olds to have healthy sexual relations with a guy over 18. And when the parents disapprove that should not ruin the life of the male.

While I agree with respect to my personal experience, I still doubt that 14 year old girls, in middle school, have a lot in common with most adult men, over 18. On a much deeper level, I think this type of relationship indicates that the girl has other issues - stereotypical father figure, mistaking sex for love, previous sexual abuse etc?

I'm pretty open minded and in fact agree that there are indeed exceptions to every rule - although i have yet to read or see one, in this instance. Can you give me an example of a healthy relationship where one is around 14 and the other is an adult? Meaning that there is no existing underlying issues - both are emotionally mature enough to be involved with one another. And please don't yell ad hominem at me, I'm seriously asking a legitimate question.


And I still think your perception will change as you age.

 

[Agnapostate]

I generally do not use such phenomenological arguments, but as i said, I used to share such views, as ad hominem and fallacious as they are not. Furthermore, while you may not agree, there is wide spread empirical evidence supporting the facts that youth are not the best decision makers, are very often lacking foresight and have difficulty exercising impulse control. Contrary to what you might think, this is not personal attack as I'm sure you are familiar with the studies with which I refer as the person you mentioned above was refuting them and quoted them in his writing?

The empirical evidence regarding the ability of adolescents to make rational and informed decisions about their own lives and futures has been presented several times. Here it is again:

There are several studies that have been conducted on the basis of measuring the actual competency of adolescents to make informed decisions, as opposed to highly speculative guesswork based on snapshots of the brain.

An important one is that of Lois A. Weithorn and Susan B. Campbell, which tested four groups of people, aged 9, 14, 18, and 21. The study, entitled The Competency of Children and Adolescents to Make Informed Treatment Decisions, came to the conclusion that 14 year olds were capable of making medical decisions with a level of competence equivalent to that of legal adults. As partially summarized by Weithorn and Campbell:

"In general, minors aged 14 were found to demonstrate a level of competency equivalent to that of adults, according to four standards of competency (evidence of choice, reasonable outcome, rational reasons, and understanding), and for four hypothetical dilemmas (diabetes, epilepsy, depression and enuresis.)…The findings of this research do not lend support to policies which deny adolescents the right of self-determination in treatment situations on the basis of a presumption of incapacity to provide informed consent. The ages of eighteen or twenty-one as the “cutoffs” below which individuals are presumed to be incompetent to make determinations about their own welfare do not reflect the psychological capacities of most adolescents."

The earlier study of researchers Grisso and Vierling, Minors’ Consent to Treatment: A Developmental Perspective, came to a similar conclusion, the authors stating that “existing evidence provides no legal assumption that minors aged 15 years and above cannot provide competent consent.”

Researchers Bruce Ambuel and Julian Rappaport discovered similar results in a study intended to specifically focus on this topic, entitled Developmental trends in adolescents' psychological and legal competence to consent to abortion. The study confirmed the fact that the rational judgment and decision making capacities of adolescents, (particularly those at or beyond mid-adolescence), were often on par with those of adults.

In a wide-ranging review of the developmental literature on adolescents’ abilities to make rational decisions about medical treatment, researchers Kuther and Posada confirmed that, “the literature in developmental psychology has shown that adolescents are able to make meaningful decisions and advocates for youth have argued that researchers must respect the autonomy rights of children and adolescents,” thus confirming the legitimacy and validity of the previous studies to a great degree.

I think it's necessary to consider such data in the interests of intellectual honesty.

I'm sure you do not support total removal of age restrictions.

I do. I don't believe that age restrictions are sufficient indicators of maturity and competence, and often serve to inhibit those qualities.

Abolishing age restrictions in light of the sometimes predatory sexual nature of adults is lacking in foresight, unless you are not satisfied with empirical data on the subject of pedophilia and hold to the assertion that a 13 year old is perfectly able to consent to having sex with a 40 year old?

Firstly, such an interaction would not constitute "pedophilia," as I find myself frequently having to repeat. Pedophilia is a sexual attraction (not necessarily any variety of behavior) to prepubescent children, as defined by the American Psychiatric Association's Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders. Now, it's my opinion that if a person of any age is considered to have the ability to make rational and informed decisions about their lives generally (as may be certified through a process such as emancipation, perhaps), that it would be inconsistent to not extend their deserved autonomy to the sexual realm. I think protections against the sexual abuse of anyone would be better manifested through prohibitions of violent or coercive sexual activity, not minimum age laws.

What does the 82 year old have to say about that, I would be interested in reading his arguments with respect to the above mentioned topics.

[ame=http://www.amazon.com/Birthrights-Richard-Farson/dp/0140047859/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1235007751&sr=1-1]Amazon.com: Birthrights: Richard Farson: Books[/ame]


I would strongly advise purchasing Birthrights. The used copies sell for $7.65. (Plus $4 for shipping and handling, I believe.) Youth rights issues obviously aren't limited to matters of sexual autonomy (despite the urges of certain posters here to claim otherwise), and he discusses a number of other age restrictions and their counter-productive nature. The book's a bit dated (it was written in 1974), but I think it still provides a very insightful commentary into the topic. Now, you obviously wouldn't want to be spending money until you have a basic understanding of what's going to be discussed, so I'd recommend that you have a look at this link before you make any purchases, if that's what you choose to do: The Children's Liberation Movement

At any rate, your argument that young adults having more decision making power is not invalid and the protective nature of parents can impede objectivity, but your age can contribute to your lack of objectivity with respect to the topic as well.

Of course these things are valuable to keep in mind, but they should not function as arguments in themselves.

Condemnation of somebody as immature when they're young and then a pedophile later in order to nullify their arguments isn't logical.

That's exactly the structure of all arguments against the YR movement. Youth activists themselves are dismissed as naive and incapable of fully understanding the repercussions of the policies that they advocate, and older activists are dismissed as pedophiles. I think such vilification might be subconsciously associated with the anger of adults at having people their own age (and older!) support a movement that they dismiss as childish and illogical, since it clearly proves that their prediction that youth will abandon the movement when they become adults is clearly wrong in some cases.

 

[Agnapostate]

That's a good question, but no, I don't think he should have gone to jail. But, re-creating a parent-child like relationship with an adult and having sex with that same adult does not indicate maturity and good decision making. If anything, it's a clear indication that I had some pretty serious issues.

That's not the basis of our advocacy, as we oppose hierarchical relationships between youth and adults. That is the basis of the pro-pedophilia movement, which advocates that adults have a sexual and paternalistic relationship with young children, as evidenced by this "girl-lover" symbol, for instance.

The smaller pink heart within the larger pink heart is intended to illustrate the nature of a sexual relationship between an older man and a young girl. Even a cursory examination will reveal that such a relationship is obviously hierarchical as a result of its paternalistic nature, as the smaller heart reveals an intent to subordinate children under adults through a sexual relationship. Such concepts are anathema to youth liberationists.

While I agree with respect to my personal experience, I still doubt that 14 year old girls, in middle school, have a lot in common with most adult men, over 18. On a much deeper level, I think this type of relationship indicates that the girl has other issues - stereotypical father figure, mistaking sex for love, previous sexual abuse etc?

The majority of the time, it's probably a status issue. Older males have access to "status" that younger males lack by virtue of their legal adulthood, and are also better lovers by virtue of their greater experience. If you find these age disparities offended, they might be reversed by remedying the infantilization of youth that has occurred through the artificial extension of childhood in the form of the creation of adolescence.

I'm pretty open minded and in fact agree that there are indeed exceptions to every rule - although i have yet to read or see one, in this instance. Can you give me an example of a healthy relationship where one is around 14 and the other is an adult? Meaning that there is no existing underlying issues - both are emotionally mature enough to be involved with one another. And please don't yell ad hominem at me, I'm seriously asking a legitimate question.

The purpose of our advocacy doesn't really center around such relationships (a more pertinent youth-related issue might be close-in-age exemptions to age of consent laws, for instance), but an example of such a relationship might be the widely publicized one of Mary Kay Letourneau and Vili Fualaau. She was a teacher at his school, and he was around twelve or thirteen when they initiated a sexual relationship. They had a child, and she went to prison. She was released and went back to him, they had another child, and she was returned to prison. When she was released, he petitioned for her to be allowed to see him since he was by then an adult, and they are now happily married, as I understand. But such a relationship could very well be an anomaly, and can't really say anything as to a rule, as opposed to an act, just as your isolated anecdotal evidence really couldn't do that. But it does reveal that positive relationships can conceivably occur.

And I still think your perception will change as you age.

Obviously, no one can prove anyone else wrong here, but since LiveUninhibited has been a legal adult for several years and has not altered his position, it's obviously not "immediately true." I did mention at least one other important figure that it remains untrue for, of course, and there are certainly more.

 

[Said1]

The empirical evidence regarding the ability of adolescents to make rational and informed decisions about their own lives and futures has been presented several times. Here it is again:

Merci. I would also agree that NOT allowing more involvement in decision making is detrimental in that it inhibits critical thinking and the development of foresight. But given that these skills are still in the development stage, I would still question the ability of very young teens to make adult decision on a consistent basis. Most adults can't even do that.

There are several studies that have been conducted on the basis of measuring the actual competency of adolescents to make informed decisions, as opposed to highly speculative guesswork based on snapshots of the brain.

Will check them out the actual studies, later. I'm assuming there is a large section about sexual consent?

Firstly, such an interaction would not constitute "pedophilia," as I find myself frequently having to repeat. Pedophilia is a sexual attraction (not necessarily any variety of behavior) to prepubescent children, as defined by the American Psychiatric Association's Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders. Now, it's my opinion that if a person of any age is considered to have the ability to make rational and informed decisions about their lives generally (as may be certified through a process such as emancipation, perhaps), that it would be inconsistent to not extend their deserved autonomy to the sexual realm. I think protections against the sexual abuse of anyone would be better manifested through prohibitions of violent or coercive sexual activity, not minimum age laws.

I did not assert that 'such' interaction equates pedophilia. I said that removing all age restrictions (should have clarified nature of restrictions) pertaining to sexual consent does not take into account the sometimes sexual predatory nature of adults. That is, protective laws against coercion do not address what appears to be rational, informed sexual decision making, that is actually manipulated and misguided. It's not uncommon for adolescents to experience sexual attraction to adults, it is also not uncommon for sexual predators or adults with very distorted views of right and wrong to use consent as justification for their actions.

Can you give me an example of a healthy sexual relationship involving someone around age 14 and an adult approx aged 25, that has been subject of a longitudinal study? Or just point to one you already posted, if that is the case.

Believe it or not, the consent laws in Canada, where I'm from, is 14. There is also some situational grey areas with respect to age differences as well i.e 13 and 15 would probably be OK.

Of course these things are valuable to keep in mind, but they should not function as arguments in themselves.

Of course not, but they skew perception.

 

[LiveUninhibited]

While I agree with respect to my personal experience, I still doubt that 14 year old girls, in middle school, have a lot in common with most adult men, over 18. On a much deeper level, I think this type of relationship indicates that the girl has other issues - stereotypical father figure, mistaking sex for love, previous sexual abuse etc?

I'm pretty open minded and in fact agree that there are indeed exceptions to every rule - although i have yet to read or see one, in this instance. Can you give me an example of a healthy relationship where one is around 14 and the other is an adult? Meaning that there is no existing underlying issues - both are emotionally mature enough to be involved with one another. And please don't yell ad hominem at me, I'm seriously asking a legitimate question.


And I still think your perception will change as you age.

I'll give some examples I think make my point. Note that the ones that go well aren't usually well publicized.

Here's one from a personal website: 1950_photos

Doyne, Bev and Syd doing the liberty thing.These pictures were taken in Bev & Doyne's hotel room when she came out for Christmas 1956; she was a Jr. in high school. They were married when she was 16 years old. And are still married. "I was 22years old. Sept.15 2001.It will be #45. If God lets us live that long", says Doyne.

I'm using still married 50ish years later as an indication it turned out okay.

My sister got married when she was 14.

(No, she didn't have to get married.)

And can you believe it? She's still married to the same man!

Here's an interesting story:

funny pictures and bizarre news » Coach, 40, Weds 16-Year-Old Student

Windy and her new husband would not comment for this story, but the Hagers realize what they’ve lost.

“She could have done anything,” Betty said. “She could have set the world on fire. She threw it all away.”

Obviously the parents mean well, but did they ever stop to consider that the daughter might actually want to be with the guy? If she wants to go to college i don't see why marrying an older guy is going to prevent that. Unless, of course, her parents aren't going to help her with college because she married him.

And the more infamous case:

Mary Kay Letourneau - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Vili Fualaau - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This case is interesting in a few respects. It's not a fairytale story by any means but there's a few facts to consider:

1. They first had sex when he was 13 and she was his 34 year old teacher.
2. His mother asked the state to protect him from the teacher.
3. She was incarcerated for years, and yet they continued to see each other.
4. But when he turned 21, and she was done doing time, he asked the state to allow him to see her legally, and they were married soon afterwards.
5. They are still married and have 2 kids.

I don't want to be biased, so I should say that they're both unemployed (but probably hard to employ due to the status as a sex offender hot potato), and seem to subsist on money made selling their story. The male was arrested for drunk driving a year later, but last I checked they were still together.

But I would much sooner blame their problems on the hardships imposed upon them by the state, personal problems independent of each other, and his mother than anything being ingenuine or exploitative about their relationship. It's almost like a love conquers all story with some taints.

 

[Said1]

That's not the basis of our advocacy, as we oppose hierarchical relationships between youth and adults.

I know and I asked for an example of what you advocate in the form of a healthy sexual relationship between a very young teen and and adult that has been the subject of a real longitudinal study.

The majority of the time, it's probably a status issue. Older males have access to "status" that younger males lack by virtue of their legal adulthood, and are also better lovers by virtue of their greater experience. If you find these age disparities offended, they might be reversed by remedying the infantilization of youth that has occurred through the artificial extension of childhood in the form of the creation of adolescence.

Probably?

The purpose of our advocacy doesn't really center around such relationships (a more pertinent youth-related issue might be close-in-age exemptions to age of consent laws, for instance), but an example of such a relationship might be the widely publicized one of Mary Kay Letourneau and Vili Fualaau. She was a teacher at his school, and he was around twelve or thirteen when they initiated a sexual relationship. They had a child, and she went to prison. She was released and went back to him, they had another child, and she was returned to prison. When she was released, he petitioned for her to be allowed to see him since he was by then an adult, and they are now happily married, as I understand. But such a relationship could very well be an anomaly, and can't really say anything as to a rule, as opposed to an act, just as your isolated anecdotal evidence really couldn't do that. But it does reveal that positive relationships can conceivably occur.

Mary Kate Letourneau is not well, mentally, but is, to my knowledge, medicated. I do not know the mental state of Vili, both now and when he was a child.


Now I have to get some work done, so will bid you good bye.

 

[Said1]

[

Doyne, Bev and Syd doing the liberty thing.These pictures were taken in Bev & Doyne's hotel room when she came out for Christmas 1956; she was a Jr. in high school. They were married when she was 16 years old. And are still married. "I was 22years old. Sept.15 2001.It will be #45. If God lets us live that long", says Doyne.

I'm using still married 50ish years later as an indication it turned out okay.

My sister got married when she was 14.

(No, she didn't have to get married.)

And can you believe it? She's still married to the same man!

Here's an interesting story:

funny pictures and bizarre news » Coach, 40, Weds 16-Year-Old Student

Windy and her new husband would not comment for this story, but the Hagers realize what they’ve lost.

“She could have done anything,” Betty said. “She could have set the world on fire. She threw it all away.”

Obviously the parents mean well, but did they ever stop to consider that the daughter might actually want to be with the guy? If she wants to go to college i don't see why marrying an older guy is going to prevent that. Unless, of course, her parents aren't going to help her with college because she married him.

And the more infamous case:

Mary Kay Letourneau - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Vili Fualaau - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This case is interesting in a few respects. It's not a fairytale story by any means but there's a few facts to consider:

1. They first had sex when he was 13 and she was his 34 year old teacher.
2. His mother asked the state to protect him from the teacher.
3. She was incarcerated for years, and yet they continued to see each other.
4. But when he turned 21, and she was done doing time, he asked the state to allow him to see her legally, and they were married soon afterwards.
5. They are still married and have 2 kids.

I don't want to be biased, so I should say that they're both unemployed (but probably hard to employ due to the status as a sex offender hot potato), and seem to subsist on money made selling their story. The male was arrested for drunk driving a year later, but last I checked they were still together.

But I would much sooner blame their problems on the hardships imposed upon them by the state, personal problems independent of each other, and his mother than anything being ingenuine or exploitative about their relationship. It's almost like a love conquers all story with some taints.

[/quote]

As I said, Mary Kate is not well and Villi does not appear to be either. Your idea of love conquering all in their case is purely idealistic in light of what actually happened. There are lots of documented cases where victims are brainwashed by their abusers who wind up forming sick attachments with them.

I won't discount your personal examples as I agreed there are exceptions, although I'm really curious as to why your sister married at 14 - aside from love and all that - was she happy at home, with your parents? It's also 1 am here, and I have to get some work done!

 

[LiveUninhibited]

That's not the basis of our advocacy, as we oppose hierarchical relationships between youth and adults.

I know and I asked for an example of what you advocate in the form of a healthy sexual relationship between a very young teen and and adult that has been the subject of a real longitudinal study.

Logitudinal studies are not anecdotes. We don't have to talk about statistics to prove age is not a good standard. The burden of proof should be much lower because exceptions are what make the age standard for consent inappropriate. I find hurting innocent people along with the guilty unacceptable unless the alternative creates even greater harm. Using a mental capacity based concept of informed consent, exactly as they do for people with cognitive deficits, would be a better alternative.

Mary Kate Letourneau is not well, mentally, but is, to my knowledge, medicated. I do not know the mental state of Vili, both now and when he was a child.

Well it's hard to know. The best example of a relationship working out is its longevity as assessed from the outside. There certainly have been a small number of cases that work out as I said. I was easily able to find them immediately on google and have heard of them occassionally from 2nd-hand sources. The intention of the sites does not appear to be to spread pedophilie propaganda or even advocate youth rights and that makes them easier for anybody to trust, I'd think.

 

[LiveUninhibited]

I won't discount your personal examples as I agreed there are exceptions, although I'm really curious as to why your sister married at 14 - aside from love and all that - was she happy at home, with your parents? It's also 1 am here, and I have to get some work done!

It wasn't my sister it was a 60ish year old man talking about his family on a website for his business. I forgot the link it appears. But since you acknowledge there are exceptions do you take issue with my suggestion for how it should be treated legally for some other reason?

 

[Shogun]

Would you be so quick to say no if your son were given Herpes or a child by one of these sick bitches? Aids?

Knowingly giving anybody Aids without them having knowledge of the risks is what should be the crime there. Informed consent would require that if you know you have an STD you tell any partner beforehand.

That being said, I don't think one would need to be a naive teenaged boy to get seduced by the teacher in the example. Most men, legal adult or not, would follow the old Nike slogan there.

the double standard is rediculous. You think a 14 year old boy is thinking about AIDS and HERPES and PREGNANCY when looking to stick his dick into something? Certainly not like an actual adult would. I guess this is what happens when the porky's generation gets old enough to vote.

 

[Said1]

Logitudinal studies are not anecdotes. We don't have to talk about statistics to prove age is not a good standard. The burden of proof should be much lower because exceptions are what make the age standard for consent inappropriate. I find hurting innocent people along with the guilty unacceptable unless the alternative creates even greater harm. Using a mental capacity based concept of informed consent, exactly as they do for people with cognitive deficits, would be a better alternative.

There are exceptions to every rule, but precedents should not be set based on exceptions. Canadian consent laws do consider grey areas in the matter of age vs consent, that are much more realistic. As I said, the age of consent in Canada is 14, with some room to consider things such as close age difference. I think Canadian laws are probably more suited to your argument and would argue that courts more often than not make decisions based on individual rather than a one law fits all basis. In doing this, your concerns about exceptions are addressed.

Also, longitudinal studies provide lots of information and correlations relevant to the topic. When advocating drafting or changing legislation of that nature, there are more things to consider than how things worked out for a few people, 40 years later.

Well it's hard to know. The best example of a relationship working out is its longevity as assessed from the outside. There certainly have been a small number of cases that work out as I said. I was easily able to find them immediately on google and have heard of them occassionally from 2nd-hand sources. The intention of the sites does not appear to be to spread pedophilie propaganda or even advocate youth rights and that makes them easier for anybody to trust, I'd think.

It is hard to know, but judging, based on what is put forward by those involved only, isn't always the best unit of analysis, either. What people perceive to be right about their lives can stem from conditioning, beginning at a very young and impressionable age. My ex-husband and I were also together for 18 years, that's pretty long.

 

[Agnapostate]

I'll comment further when I get home, but the age of consent in Canada is not 14. It was raised to 16 last year.

 

[Cecilie1200]

Often referred to as Romeo and Juliet clauses, in fact. That's definitely an improvement, but most of them don't even span the years people could be in school together. For example in Oregon I think it's 3 years, so a senior in high school who has sex with a freshman is still "raping" them.

You should ask yourself why Oregon decided to set their limit where they did, and why many other states do the same. Or for that matter, why many parents will balk at allowing their 9th-graders to date seniors. Unlike with adults, a year makes an enormous difference in the life of someone that young, and four years is a serious gap in their relative development levels. This means that a sexual relationship between a senior and a freshman stands a good chance of having a predatory aspect to it.

Every relationship has a "good chance" of having a predatory aspect to it if a predatory person is involved. Women who exploit men's obsession with sex. Men who lie to women to get sex. This has nothing to do with age per se. Somebody just decided to make an arbitrary standard because they're an overprotective parent no more rational than the father who threatens every boyfriend by cleaning his gun in front of him.

My, don't YOU have a negative attitude toward relationships. Look at your own post. "If a predatory person is involved". That "if" was my point, Einstein. A high-school senior having sex with someone four years younger is very likely to be a predatory person, which is why the relationship is very likely to be a predatory one. Duh.

And it has a lot to do with age. As I said, a four-year gap when you're an adolescent is a much bigger deal than when you're older, because they are still growing and developing as people, and those years produce a marked difference in where each person is in that process. "Somebody" didn't "just decide to make an arbitrary standard". I realize this is incredibly hard for people like you to understand, but society didn't just pull the rules we live by out of its collective ass for the express purpose of pissing you off and ruining your fun. It developed them based on this funny little quirk we like to call "learning from history".

My grandmother got married at 12. That was the norm in turn-of-the-century rural Tennessee. Do you know what else was the norm at that time, in that place? Dying in your early thirties. Societal norms from centuries ago, created as a response to conditions that no longer apply, are about as relevant to modern-day America as the idea that bathing too much is unhealthy (Hey, that was the norm once upon a time, and I don't see you advocating a return to THAT). Besides, I thought the entire point of becoming wealthier and more civilized and developing greater technology was to free us from the grueling, horrific realities of more primitive times.

The fact that there's a difference between 14-year-olds and 5-year-olds is already reflected in the typical punishments meted out to the offenders in both cases. It doesn't require us to dispense with their childhoods and make them open, unprotected targets for sickos as soon as they hit puberty.

Oh geez, the glorification of childhood. Childhood sucks and the earlier they can put it behind them the better and safer their lives will be. Acting like naivety is some kind of ideal, safe state.

Where did I ever say I was glorifying childhood? "LOL" My entire point, Brain Trust, is that childhood sucks and we owe it to them to protect them so it doesn't suck even worse. Acting like the general suckiness of being a child negates the fact that they ARE still children is worse than naivete. It's criminal negligence.

I'm not trying to appeal to tradition in my example, though. It just illustrates how ridiculous it is to treat 14-year-olds as children when they are obviously capable of acting as adults.

First of all, saying, "This used to be the norm" is, in fact, appealing to tradition. Go look up the word "tradition". Second, who says that's obvious? The fact that the necessities of a harsh, primitive world forced children to take on adult roles doesn't mean they were ready for it, that they did a particularly good job of it, or that it was a good thing. In fact, society clearly thought it was a bad thing, because one of the universally-accepted marks of civilization is that those who achieve it stop treating their children that way.

You don't have to tell me, but I would be curious to know how many children you have, and how many actual pubescent kids you are personally acquainted with. It's always been striking to me how clearly divided this debate always is between people who are working either from a theoretical idea of 14-year-olds or the memory of being that age themselves, and people who actually have a child that age in their lives. I have yet to see anyone, male or female, who has a 14-year-old and says, "Well, I think my son/daughter is plenty mature enough to decide to have sex with his/her teacher, and I hope it's a really good experience for them both."

It doesn't require one to be an expert on teen behavior to see that my system would be more sane. If there's even a single 14-year-old out there who would be compatible with a single 20-year-old out there, the law based upon age alone is ridiculous.

Actually, it takes someone who clearly knows nothing about the topic, either teenagers or the law, to blithely suggest what you're suggesting, which is why I'm asking. It's always the people who've never had kids who get diarrhea of the mouth about the proper way to raise them. And I guess now I have my answer. "It doesn't take an expert" always means "I don't know jack shit".

I probably shouldn't disclose who I am but I will. I am 25-years-old and have a fiancee who is almost done with pharmacy school, but I'm not certain if I'll ever actually get married or have kids. (getting married would be a long-term economic disadvantage for us). I am working on getting into medical school and I recently graduated with BS in Biochemistry/Biophysics and Sociology.

Whereas I am merely a mother of three children, two of them teenagers, one of them approximately the age we're talking about.

I have felt this way about youth rights since I was 15 and first got involved with speech/debate. People told me my views would change as I got older, but they so far have not on that issue. Hopefully becoming a parent will not deprive me of rationality. Most parents do not have a realistic idea of what their teens are doing, let alone capable of and we shouldn't base policy on their emotional responses to their offspring's sexuality.

Well, I'm glad to know that you're so proud of the fact that you haven't matured a single iota since you were 15. Might I venture to suggest that you might want to consider larding your book learning with a little bit of real world experience?

 

[Cecilie1200]

I have felt this way about youth rights since I was 15 and first got involved with speech/debate. People told me my views would change as I got older, but they so far have not on that issue. Hopefully becoming a parent will not deprive me of rationality. Most parents do not have a realistic idea of what their teens are doing, let alone capable of and we shouldn't base policy on their emotional responses to their offspring's sexuality.

Your views WILL change when you have a child or when you get older. I used share your views and can attest to that fact that I had lots in common with my immature, controlling and abusive 25 year old boyfriend, when I was 16. We like me to wear the same clothes, we liked me to have certain hair styles. we both didn't like his friends or any other men talking or looking at me and most importantly, we liked to buy me booze and get me REALLY wasted.

I wouldn't bet on his views changing, since he apparently prides himself on never growing up or learning anything about the world from an adult and/or experiential standpoint. Personally, I'd have been ashamed to admit at 25 that I still held the same outlook on the world that I had had ten years earlier.

 

[Cecilie1200]

For the record, I'd like to share with you what my 13-year-old said when I mentioned this conversation to him and suggested that he was able to make his own decisions about having sex. I quote:

"That is completely mouse-brained. The law is right, and it should be illegal for a grown-up to have sex with me. And anyone who thinks it shouldn't be is some kind of sicko."

I always love impassioned activists fighting for people to have rights those people don't want.

 

[KittenKoder]

For the record, I'd like to share with you what my 13-year-old said when I mentioned this conversation to him and suggested that he was able to make his own decisions about having sex. I quote:

"That is completely mouse-brained. The law is right, and it should be illegal for a grown-up to have sex with me. And anyone who thinks it shouldn't be is some kind of sicko."

I always love impassioned activists fighting for people to have rights those people don't want.

That is the most compelling evidence to support the laws.

 

[Diuretic]

For the record, I'd like to share with you what my 13-year-old said when I mentioned this conversation to him and suggested that he was able to make his own decisions about having sex. I quote:

"That is completely mouse-brained. The law is right, and it should be illegal for a grown-up to have sex with me. And anyone who thinks it shouldn't be is some kind of sicko."

I always love impassioned activists fighting for people to have rights those people don't want.

So if an adult woman approaches your son he will tell her he's not interested, right? Smart lad. Now, what if he said he was interested and had consensual sex with the adult woman? Should she be charged with a criminal offence? If so, then why shouldn't your son be charged with aiding and abetting?