Zone1 Without God, right and wrong are just personal beliefs.

[TheProgressivePatriot]

What's your point in saying that? My point is that morality without God's direction HAS BEEN subjective throughout human history.

My point is that morality can be subjective with god. Those tribes have their gods and goddesses and still engage in genocide and, I would guess rationalize it on moral grounds and possibly in the name of god.

At the same time, secular humanists and atheists obviously do not commit atrocities in the name of god and are more likely to adhere to an objective morality based on community standards and universal values and the will to survive as a society.

Belief in god and religion is subjective and therefore any morality that flows from it is likely to be subjective. When wvwetone has their god, and everyone thinks that there god is the only god each with their own ideas about morality , there can be no objectivity.

 

[hadit]

My point is that morality can be subjective with god. Those tribes have their gods and goddesses and still engage in genocide and, I would guess rationalize it on moral grounds and possibly in the name of god.

At the same time, secular humanists and atheists obviously do not commit atrocities in the name of god and are more likely to adhere to an objective morality based on community standards and universal values and the will to survive as a society.

Belief in god and religion is subjective and therefore any morality that flows from it is likely to be subjective. When wvwetone has their god, and everyone thinks that there god is the only god each with their own ideas about morality , there can be no objectivity.

There can be objective morality that is not followed.

 

[TheProgressivePatriot]

There can be objective morality that is not followed.

Is that supposed to be a rebuttal to something that I said. ? You seems to be winding down.

 

[hadit]

Is that supposed to be a rebuttal to something that I said. ? You seems to be winding down.

The point remains that morality opposes natural selfishness. We all have a conscience that tells us right from wrong, and that conscience often guides us to do things that are not in our best interests. Without God in the picture, a conscience is not a good thing.

 

[Weatherman2020]

Right and wrong do not need to be dictated by some god because they are arguments of reason.

Tell me do you think you would be a raping , murdering, pedophile and thief you weren't afraid of a god?

No, they don’t need to be dictated.
But there’s no reason your morality is any superior to any violent criminal either if there’s no God.

 

[hadit]

No, they don’t need to be dictated.
But there’s no reason your morality is any superior to any violent criminal either if there’s no God.

Ultimately, you have to ask the question, without an objective morality, what makes "right" right and "wrong" wrong?

 

[dblack]

Ultimately, you have to ask the question, without an objective morality, what makes "right" right and "wrong" wrong?

And there are very good answers. Ultimately, morality is just another trait promoting survival of the species.

 

[hadit]

And there are very good answers. Ultimately, morality is just another trait promoting survival of the species.

How does it do that? Morality dictates that we help the weak to survive, allowing negative traits to persist in the species' gene pool. Morality dictates that we allow the elderly and sick to survive, thus costing the rest of society the resources they consume. Morality dictates that we leave alive and unmolested the survivors of our latest battle with the neighboring tribe and their access to the resources on their land, thus ensuring more battles in the decades to come.

How, if evolution, aka survival of the fittest, results in the best outcome for a specie, does morality help promote survival?

 

[dblack]

How does it do that? Morality dictates that we help the weak to survive, allowing negative traits to persist in the species' gene pool. Morality dictates that we allow the elderly and sick to survive, thus costing the rest of society the resources they consume. Morality dictates that we leave alive and unmolested the survivors of our latest battle with the neighboring tribe and their access to the resources on their land, thus ensuring more battles in the decades to come.

How, if evolution, aka survival of the fittest, results in the best outcome for a specie, does morality help promote survival?

Here's a great video suggesting how it could happen.

 

[TheProgressivePatriot]

The point remains that morality opposes natural selfishness. We all have a conscience that tells us right from wrong, and that conscience often guides us to do things that are not in our best interests. Without God in the picture, a conscience is not a good thing.

You seem to be struggling to make god relevant to the issue of morality. At the same time, you are ignoring the fact that millions upon millions of people live lives that can be objectively considered moral in terms of how they relate to and treat other humans, non humans and the earth herself.

And , once again I will point out that there are millions upon millions of people who do awful and selfish things in the name of their god and in doing so falsely believe that they are acting on some objective morality but are in fact defying generally accepted norms of behavior.

You mention “natural selfishness” that morality somehow holds in check, but only if that morality comes from god? I have to wonder where you get the idea that people are naturally selfish . Is that based on some particular philosophical school of thought, or is it just the pinballs bouncing around in your head?

I would ask the same of your contention that “we all have a conscience that tells us right from wrong, and that conscience often guides us to do things that are not in our best interests.” which appears to be a contradiction of your view of natural selfishness,

Then you finish up with: “Without God in the picture, a conscience is not a good thing" seemingly saying that god is sort of a puppet master controlling the stings of our imperfect conscience and shaping our morality. But. I have to wonder what sort of morality do you envision god handing down since in post 108, you rail against those practices that we as a society generally consider moral because they can weaken society. In fact you seem to have a dim view of morality in general

Again I ask, what school of thought or religious philosophy –if any – are your drawing on ? From where I am sitting you seem very confused

 

[Weatherman2020]

You seem to be struggling to make god relevant to the issue of morality. At the same time, you are ignoring the fact that millions upon millions of people live lives that can be objectively considered moral in terms of how they relate to and treat other humans, non humans and the earth herself.

And , once again I will point out that there are millions upon millions of people who do awful and selfish things in the name of their god and in doing so falsely believe that they are acting on some objective morality but are in fact defying generally accepted norms of behavior.

You mention “natural selfishness” that morality somehow holds in check, but only if that morality comes from god? I have to wonder where you get the idea that people are naturally selfish . Is that based on some particular philosophical school of thought, or is it just the pinballs bouncing around in your head?

I would ask the same of your contention that “we all have a conscience that tells us right from wrong, and that conscience often guides us to do things that are not in our best interests.” which appears to be a contradiction of your view of natural selfishness,

Then you finish up with: “Without God in the picture, a conscience is not a good thing" seemingly saying that god is sort of a puppet master controlling the stings of our imperfect conscience and shaping our morality. But. I have to wonder what sort of morality do you envision god handing down since in post 108, you rail against those practices that we as a society generally consider moral because they can weaken society. In fact you seem to have a dim view of morality in general

Again I ask, what school of thought or religious philosophy –if any – are your drawing on ? From where I am sitting you seem very confused

Without a morality maker morality is subjective to each individual.

Sure, you can say government is your rule maker. Millions have in the past.
Cambodia 1970’s.
Germany 1930’s-40’s
USSR 1920’s - ?
Etc
Etc

 

[dblack]

Without a morality maker morality is subjective to each individual.

Nonsense. Societies can maintain moral standards, every but as much as religions can.

 

[Weatherman2020]

Nonsense. Societies can maintain moral standards, every but as much as religions can.

Pol Pot did.

 

[dblack]

Pol Pot did.

So did Jim Jones. What's your point?

 

[TheProgressivePatriot]

Without a morality maker morality is subjective to each individual.

Sure, you can say government is your rule maker. Millions have in the past.
Cambodia 1970’s.
Germany 1930’s-40’s
USSR 1920’s - ?
Etc
Etc

A “morality maker: ? God ?Religion? Whos god? Whos religion? Yours? There is nothing more subjective than religion. I did not say anything about government. I said human society and the collectively accepted standards of human behavior is the rules maker

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

Selfishness is logical and reasonable. Genocide is also. So, no.

Oops, you confused yourself. The use of reason is important, but the goal of its use is also.important. you must have missed it earlier.

 

[TheProgressivePatriot]

Sure, you can say government is your rule maker. Millions have in the past.
Cambodia 1970’s.
Germany 1930’s-40’s
USSR 1920’s - ?
Etc
Etc

America 1619 to 2024 and beyond

 

[Blues Man]

No, they don’t need to be dictated.
But there’s no reason your morality is any superior to any violent criminal either if there’s no God.

There is a reason and the reason is reason itself.

Humanism is a reasoned philosophy.

Why is it you think you are utterly incapable of reason?

 

[Weatherman2020]

There is a reason and the reason is reason itself.

Humanism is a reasoned philosophy.

Why is it you think you are utterly incapable of reason?

My reason is just as valid as Charles Manson’s.
Yours too.

 

[Weatherman2020]

America 1619 to 2024 and beyond

Whatever toots your horn.