With the government officially shut down, let’s be clear about one thing:

Not sure what you're attacking me about? At least 25% of CA uninsured, many unlicensed driving about? Maybe 50%.

I said "I buy it" (forced?) For cars and home too. Never use it but pay in forever. That's the issue.

I may have it (insurance stock?) in 401K or IRA target date plans. I dont know. I'm not working that hard on a weekend.//

Question: does anyone else paytime? Insurance proce per car but you are the only driver. One car at a time?

Seems stupid. Silly. But im in it like many others I suspect.
I was at a gathering one time when a POS leftist started bitching about what a rip-off insurance was. Claimed she bought a Cancer Policy decades ago and never used it. I asked her why she'd never used it and she said, "Because I never got Cancer!"

******* brilliant.

When you have more than one Car, you get a Multi-Car discount to offset the probability that you're both not going to be driving each, individual car all the time. As a Family, you'll often go a lot of places together.

If you look at yout Policy, they'll have a breakdown of what you have and what you're paying for each coverage.

Collision is just that -- You smack into somebody or vice versa.
Comprehensive is Fire, Theft, Vandalism. Literally Other Than Collision damage.
Then there will sometimes be miscellaneous coveragse like Medical, Towing, Rental Reimbursement, etc that are self explanatory.

Then look for "LIABILITY" coverage. That covers you for when you're At Failt in an accident. Or found At Fault.

Odds are good that coverage costs you more than the rest of them Combined. Know why??

Lawyers. The Judiciary, including Judges and Lawyers, make the vast, OVERWHELMING majority of their money on Insurance Companies.

I read about a case where an Old Couple in Miami got squished by a Fuel Truck. They won an Annuity For Life on 10 Million Dollars. And the Lawyer got his cut up front. But they Annuitized the payout to the old people. A LifeTime annuity. For people in their 80's. That just got squished by a fuel truck. figure it out

Had another case where a motorcyclist ran smack dab into the side of a care that was sitting still at a Stop Light. He got a Lawyer and sued the Car Driver.

And won. The Lawyer did a song and dance about his loving wife and dependent children, etc, etc, etc. Even though the guy smashed totes into the side of a car sitting still. During the day. In good weather.

The Jury, yes, it went to Jury, awarded him full judgement to the full extent of policy limits.
 
No one is requesting eliminating the work requirement. No worries.
Now about your mistaken claim that no one is trying to end the work requirement for Medicaid . . .
I don't recall claiming that. Republicans need to keep it, agreed.
Yes, we do.
Democrats don't want us to use the nuclear option, that would mean we get our agenda passed via "blitzkrieg" style.
It would mean going by the principle of "majority rules." But it would also mean that they would have an endless whining point, and could claim they have no responsibility for anything the next two and a half year.

Mainly, they would see that as a "win" and they do not deserve a "win" for treating the American people the way they have treated us in this shutdown nonsense.

The Senate should get rid of the filibuster, in my opinion. But on principle and for all bills, not ad hoc when there is a controversy pending.
Democrats want to stop the Republican agenda, and this shutdown is doing it, rope-a-dope, tick-tock, nothing happening.
Since the Democrat agenda is spend, spend, spend, and the shutdown gives Donald Trump complete control of spending, their agenda is stopped.
Democrats can go nuclear any time they have the majority, and they will.
That's why we should do away with filibusters forever and for all topics.
We'll see. The democrats will give up a lot to stop the GOP agenda. We can't let them stop progress, tick-tock.
This is what makes me wonder if you are really one of "us." It is illogical. "Progress" for the GOP agenda means less government, not more. But it's okay. It's the internet, anyone can be anything.

We already got a large part of our agenda with the BBB, which passed. If the "shutdown" continues until Jan 1, the ACA subsidies for illegals and for COVID go away. COVID is gone, and since Trump still has ICE in full swing, so will a lot of the illegals. If you were a Republican, I would not have needed to put that last sentence in.

The agenda of reducing the number of useless fedemps (not saying all are useless) and participants in the recent lawfare has speeded up, not slowed down. There's a peace deal in the middle east, brokered by Trump in the middle of the "shutdown."

What parts of the agenda are at risk?
So you would waste months instead of pushing thru the agenda now so it has time to work, and lose the mid-terms because the democrats are happy messing things up? bad idea.
I don't see that happening. Why would the American people vote for the Democrats if they messed things up. Going nuclear or giving the Dems what they want would be seen as the Republicans messing things up.
What gift? The insurers get the same premium whether the voters get the subsidy or not.
Do you really not understand how the subsidies work? The consumers/voters do NOT get the subsidies. The health insurance providers do.

The advanced premium tax credit (APTC) option allows consumers to have 1/12 of their tax credit paid directly to their Marketplace plan insurer each month, reducing the monthly amount the consumer owes.

. . .

Alternatively, people can opt to pay their entire premium costs each month and wait to receive their tax credit until they file their annual income tax return the following year, although most Marketplace participants cannot afford this option.



So, every month, billions of dollars go directly to health providers - NOT to voters.
The only difference is that millions of voters will know who offered them a reduced month premium, and who made them pay double a month or drop healthcare coverage. MTG is right, keep the subsidy, keep the voters.
Republicans do not believe in buying votes through federal spending. That is a Democratic Party strategy.

Premiums will go up next year, with or without extending the COVID Supplemental Subsidies. Question is how much will they go up. I say, they will go up to the point that consumers will feel it, but not feel it enough to drop their coverage and give up healthcare.

That's how much it goes up every year, if you believe in market forces and how they are affected by government policies.

If you believe that health insurance providers strive mightily on behalf of consumers' financial well being and would only raise premiums of forced to, then premiums will go up by the same amount as the expired COVID subsidies was paying them.
We already know the rates, google it, family of 4 pays $900 a month now. Without the subsidy next year its $1,600 a month.
It has nothing to do with insurance, its about how much families pay for coverage.
Those people vote.

Static reasoning, something Democrats are famous for. But you say you are "not a Democrat" and I believe you.

That math assume that the insurance companies will charge $1,600 per month regardless of whether people can afford to pay. People pay XXX.XX now with the COVID Supplemental Subsidies, so if those subsidies are YYY per month and that goes away, people will pay XXX.XX - YYY per month.

Insurance Companies, who have the best math majors from the best universities calculating exactly how much consumers would be willing and able to pay next year, are only going to go by that one equation? They are not going to take into account how many consumers they would lose by such a sudden hike?

How did people afford ACA Marketplace policies before the COVID subsidies? They must have been $1,600 per month (or the inflation adjusted equivalent) if what you say is true. So, how did they do it?

Key question: Do you think people who crossed the border illegally and were granted "legal status" should get ACA subsidies?
 
It would mean going by the principle of "majority rules." But it would also mean that they would have an endless whining point, and could claim they have no responsibility for anything the next two and a half year.
Mainly, they would see that as a "win" and they do not deserve a "win" for treating the American people the way they have treated us in this shutdown nonsense.
The Senate should get rid of the filibuster, in my opinion. But on principle and for all bills, not ad hoc when there is a controversy pending.
WRONG, WRONG, WRONG. I don't care how much they whine. Democrats would see it as a loss, as the Republican agenda sails thru. I want to keep the filibuster for major bills, but not for CRs or Appropriations.
Since the Democrat agenda is spend, spend, spend, and the shutdown gives Donald Trump complete control of spending, their agenda is stopped.
WRONG. Trump's budget is dead during the shutdown. A CR is Biden's last budget.
That's why we should do away with filibusters forever and for all topics.
We disagree. But as we agree either party can eliminate the filibuster whenever they have a senate majority.
This is what makes me wonder if you are really one of "us." It is illogical. "Progress" for the GOP agenda means less government, not more. But it's okay. It's the internet, anyone can be anything.
We already got a large part of our agenda with the BBB, which passed. If the "shutdown" continues until Jan 1, the ACA subsidies for illegals and for COVID go away. COVID is gone, and since Trump still has ICE in full swing, so will a lot of the illegals. If you were a Republican, I would not have needed to put that last sentence in.
The agenda of reducing the number of useless fedemps (not saying all are useless) and participants in the recent lawfare has sped up, not slowed down. There's a peace deal in the middle east, brokered by Trump in the middle of the "shutdown."
What parts of the agenda are at risk?
I am a lifelong Republican, but I'm middle class. You remind me of Larry Kudlow or Steve Forbes, the only thing you care about is your wallet. Cut taxes. cut taxes, cut taxes, is your only priority. We now have $38T in debt and we can't keep borrowing and spending the way we have been. The BBB is a good start, but we need to get the agenda passed, and the shutdown isn't helping. The entire agenda is at risk if it is blocked by democrats.

I don't see that happening. Why would the American people vote for the Democrats if they messed things up. Going nuclear or giving the Dems what they want would be seen as the Republicans messing things up.
Republicans are in-charge. If the shutdown continues it is a Republican failure/disaster.
Do you really not understand how the subsidies work? The consumers/voters do NOT get the subsidies. The health insurance providers do.

The advanced premium tax credit (APTC) option allows consumers to have 1/12 of their tax credit paid directly to their Marketplace plan insurer each month, reducing the monthly amount the consumer owes.
Alternatively, people can opt to pay their entire premium costs each month and wait to receive their tax credit until they file their annual income tax return the following year, although most Marketplace participants cannot afford this option.


So, every month, billions of dollars go directly to health providers - NOT to voters.
Republicans do not believe in buying votes through federal spending. That is a Democratic Party strategy.
Premiums will go up next year, with or without extending the COVID Supplemental Subsidies. Question is how much will they go up. I say, they will go up to the point that consumers will feel it, but not feel it enough to drop their coverage and give up healthcare.
That's how much it goes up every year, if you believe in market forces and how they are affected by government policies.
If you believe that health insurance providers strive mightily on behalf of consumers' financial well being and would only raise premiums of forced to, then premiums will go up by the same amount as the expired COVID subsidies was paying them.
See the red font above, DUH.
Static reasoning, something Democrats are famous for. But you say you are "not a Democrat" and I believe you.
That math assume that the insurance companies will charge $1,600 per month regardless of whether people can afford to pay. People pay XXX.XX now with the COVID Supplemental Subsidies, so if those subsidies are YYY per month and that goes away, people will pay XXX.XX - YYY per month.
Insurance Companies, who have the best math majors from the best universities calculating exactly how much consumers would be willing and able to pay next year, are only going to go by that one equation? They are not going to take into account how many consumers they would lose by such a sudden hike?
How did people afford ACA Marketplace policies before the COVID subsidies? They must have been $1,600 per month (or the inflation adjusted equivalent) if what you say is true. So, how did they do it?
I googled the typical ACA premiums, which support what democrats and MTG are saying. Those are all good arguments. Mine typically is "democrats wrote the temporary subsidy, and that it expires 12/31/25". NOT THE POINT. The point is "will working Americans have affordable health insurance, or will they all go on Medicaid?"
As a negotiating point, I would give the $130b annual subsidy, but nothing else, take it or leave it, nuclear option if they don't.
Key question: Do you think people who crossed the border illegally and were granted "legal status" should get ACA subsidies?
Depends what "legal status" means. If they entered the US illegally then NO.
 
Make no mistake about it ......

With the government officially shut down, let’s be clear about one thing:

Republicans control the House, the Senate, and the White House. This is THEIR shutdown.

They have every tool to govern. Instead, they chose chaos. And now the American people are the ones paying the price.

Thousands of workers are going without pay. Families are seeing their benefits delayed. Small businesses cannot access the loans they depend on.

Republicans not showing up for work don't get paid damn it .............
I'm always amazed how libs claim to be the most educated, yet can't figure out the most simple shit
 
Cutting out the parts where we're just going in circles. Agree to disagree.

reducing the monthly amount the consumer owes.
See the red font above, DUH.
Sure, it reduced the amount the consumer owes, if you assume that the Insurance Companies do not adjust their premiums to take into account the subsidies the consumer will be getting. Why do you assumet that.

Let's look at what happened when the COVID Supplemental Subsidies took effect:

1760803871583.webp

My little caculator shows the COVID Supplemental Subsidies reduced consumer's share of the MONTHLY premiums by $44.00. $44.00 is going to cause people to lose their healthcare coverage? I don't think so.

Democrat keep quoting annual increase in consumer's share of the premium as if they were monthly. That has voters confused, which is the Democrats' goal.

Notice that right after the COVID Supplemental Subsidy took effect, the government was paying $550 out of $619 dollars per month - 88.8% of the premium for people buying insurance on the exchanges.

Makes you wonder why the Dems keep whining about how great "Single Payer" would be. They have eighty-eight percent of that now.

Question for you: Who decides how much the annual premiums will be?

I googled the typical ACA premiums, which support what democrats and MTG are saying. Those are all good arguments. Mine typically is "democrats wrote the temporary subsidy, and that it expires 12/31/25". NOT THE POINT. The point is "will working Americans have affordable health insurance, or will they all go on Medicaid?"
Yes, if they can pony up a fat $44 extra dollar per month ($1.46 per day), they can afford health insurance. If they can pay $5 for a Tall Latte at Starbucks, and $4 for a Powerball Ticket, they can afford just under a buck and a half.

Admittedly, we won't know how much of an increase the consumer part of the premiums will be until the Health Insurance providers tell us exactly how much they will charge for premiums. WHich is why we need those figures before we do anything.

But it won't have premiums going from $300 per month to $2,000 per month, claims that Democrats are scaring gullible people with.
As a negotiating point, I would give the $130b annual subsidy, but nothing else, take it or leave it, nuclear option if they don't.

Depends what "legal status" means. If they entered the US illegally then NO.
That is the Democrats main sticking point. They do not consider people who entered the country illegally and were given "a legal status" to be illegal aliens. Republics do.

Question: Since you are a Republican, why would you want the Republicans to use the nuclear option if you still believe that it will cause voters' health insurance to go up so much that they will lose their health insurance?

That really does sound like what the Democrats would hope for.

:eusa_think:
 
reducing the monthly amount the consumer owes.
Sure, it reduced the amount the consumer owes, if you assume that the Insurance Companies do not adjust their premiums to take into account the subsidies the consumer will be getting. Why do you assume that.

Let's look at what happened when the COVID Supplemental Subsidies took effect:
View attachment 1174738
My little calculator shows the COVID Supplemental Subsidies reduced consumer's share of the MONTHLY premiums by $44.00. $44.00 is going to cause people to lose their healthcare coverage? I don't think so.
Democrat keep quoting annual increase in consumer's share of the premium as if they were monthly. That has voters confused, which is the Democrats' goal.
Notice that right after the COVID Supplemental Subsidy took effect, the government was paying $550 out of $619 dollars per month - 88.8% of the premium for people buying insurance on the exchanges.
Makes you wonder why the Dems keep whining about how great "Single Payer" would be. They have eighty-eight percent of that now.
Question for you: Who decides how much the annual premiums will be?
Let congress negotiate any subsidy, or no subsidy. Voters will judge them on their own pocketbooks, as always.

1760805788003.webp

Admittedly, we won't know how much of an increase the consumer part of the premiums will be until the Health Insurance providers tell us exactly how much they will charge for premiums. Which is why we need those figures before we do anything.
But it won't have premiums going from $300 per month to $2,000 per month, claims that Democrats are scaring gullible people with.
That is the Democrats main sticking point. They do not consider people who entered the country illegally and were given "a legal status" to be illegal aliens. Republicans do.
Since you are a Republican, why would you want the Republicans to use the nuclear option if you still believe that it will cause voters' health insurance to go up so much that they will lose their health insurance? That really does sound like what the Democrats would hope for.
Using the nuclear option has nothing to do with ACA premiums. What Republicans choose to do, subsidy or no subsidy, would affect ACA premiums to be affordable or unaffordable.
 
Let congress negotiate any subsidy, or no subsidy. Voters will judge them on their own pocketbooks, as always.

View attachment 1174753
Exactly. Thank you.

We're not talking any huge increases. Less than two dollars per day on average.

How is that worth shutting the government down? Especially to the party whose constituents most depend on government?

Even worse for Democrats: The government is not "shutdown." All they are doing with their blocking of a clean CR is giving the power of the legislative branch to the executive branch, which can and must spend as it sees fit, due to no guidance from Congress.

The Legislative Branch is majority Republican, sure. But only by a close margin. The Legislative Branch is an extremely diverse group of men and women from all fifty states, DC and some territories. Deals are made, "both sides" are catered to - when they don't "shut down the government."

When they "shut down the government," the Executive takes over and his name is Donald Trump.
Using the nuclear option has nothing to do with ACA premiums. What Republicans choose to do, subsidy or no subsidy, would affect ACA premiums to be affordable or unaffordable.
That is confusing. If Thune uses the nuclear option Monday morning, the CR passes and the COVID Supplemental ACA Marketplace subsidies expire.

I seriously doubt that will inspire anyone to vote Democrat in 2026 that hasn't already made up their mind to do so.
 
Exactly. Thank you. We're not talking any huge increases. Less than two dollars per day on average.
How is that worth shutting the government down? Especially to the party whose constituents most depend on government?
Democrats made that decision. Republicans need to consider their options and consequences.
Even worse for Democrats: The government is not "shutdown." All they are doing with their blocking of a clean CR is giving the power of the legislative branch to the executive branch, which can and must spend as it sees fit, due to no guidance from Congress.
There is no money to spend until they pass the CR.
The Legislative Branch is majority Republican, sure. But only by a close margin. The Legislative Branch is an extremely diverse group of men and women from all fifty states, DC and some territories. Deals are made, "both sides" are catered to - when they don't "shut down the government." When they "shut down the government," the Executive takes over and his name is Donald Trump.
Trump can't do anything without a CR, "essential employees" keep working and will be paid after the CR is passed.
"Non-essential employees" are sent home and won't be paid for the duration of the shutdown, if they choose to come back after the shutdown.
That is confusing. If Thune uses the nuclear option Monday morning, the CR passes and the COVID Supplemental ACA Marketplace subsidies expire. I seriously doubt that will inspire anyone to vote Democrat in 2026 that hasn't already made up their mind to do so.
Nope. The subsidies expire 12/31/25.
 
Democrats made that decision. Republicans need to consider their options and consequences.
Yes, that is what they are doing. But it is based on reality, not media spin.
There is no money to spend until they pass the CR.
The federal government is spening money regardless of the fact that congressional Democrats have abdicated their responsibility to appropriate funds for it to spend. It has a choice of spending money or ceasing to exist as a government. If it governs, it spends.

The government is obligating money to be paid to every employee that it does not lay off or inform that there is no money to pay them and no guarantee there ever will be. Obligating oneself to a payment is spending money.

I hope you are not a person who believes that if you buy something on credit, you are not "spending money."
Trump can't do anything without a CR, "essential employees" keep working
Then Trump can do something. He can order essential employees to come to work. So he can and is spending money.

The Constitution does not forbid that. It only forbids money from being taken out of the treasury a congressional appropriation:

Article I, Section 9, Clause 7:

No Money shall be drawn from the Treasury, but in Consequence of Appropriations made by Law; and a regular Statement and Account of the Receipts and Expenditures of all public Money shall be published from time to time.
The word "shutdown" does not appear in the Constitution. The most skeptical of our founders would not have envisioned the kind of childishness Democrats and "not Democrats" are perpetrating on the nation at the moment.
and will be paid after the CR is passed.
So the money for their salaries is being spent. Just like your boss spends money for you to work Monday through Friday, even though you will not be paid until Friday evening.
"Non-essential employees" are sent home and won't be paid for the duration of the shutdown, if they choose to come back after the shutdown.
I implore you, sir!

Stop making assumptions and stating them as fact.

1760836365974.webp

Nope. The subsidies expire 12/31/25.
Correct. I did not mean to imply that the subsidies would stop immediately if Thune uses the "nuclear option." If Thune uses the "nuclear option" the few extra dollars in the COVID Supplemental Subsidies will stop.

Life, however, will go on.
 
...condensing
The government is obligating money to be paid to every employee that it does not lay off or inform that there is no money to pay them and no guarantee there ever will be. Obligating oneself to a payment is spending money.
Then Trump can do something. He can order essential employees to come to work. So he can and is spending money.
OK, no argument with that. Good discussion.
 
Maybe you need to learn to count.
Ever hear of a filibuster? That's what gives Schumer his leverage. It takes more votes than Republicans have to pass a bill, and Schumer controls the opposing votes.
 
Ever hear of a filibuster? That's what gives Schumer his leverage. It takes more votes than Republicans have to pass a bill, and Schumer controls the opposing votes.
That wasn't my point. My point was the Republicans have more seats than the Democrats.

That it's not a simple majority needed to pass a bill to stop the shutdown is something Trump should know. But Trump's had the longest shut down ever, at 35 days and will have the second longest shutdown when he gets to 22 days, shows that it might actually be TRUMP that's the problem.
 
That wasn't my point. My point was the Republicans have more seats than the Democrats.
They do, and if they change Senate rules to allow a simple majority to break a filibuster, all those now crowing that they can stop the shutdown at any time will instantly switch to complaining that they are abusing the power of the majority or some such.
That it's not a simple majority needed to pass a bill to stop the shutdown is something Trump should know. But Trump's had the longest shut down ever, at 35 days and will have the second longest shutdown when he gets to 22 days, shows that it might actually be TRUMP that's the problem.
It's not when Schumer holds the cards. One statement from him and the shutdown stops. He started it, TRUMP! did not. He can stop it at any time, TRUMP! is not even in the Senate and can't force anything to happen.

Like it or not, this is the Schumer Shutdown, and responsibility for it lies squarely on him.
 
15th post
They do, and if they change Senate rules to allow a simple majority to break a filibuster, all those now crowing that they can stop the shutdown at any time will instantly switch to complaining that they are abusing the power of the majority or some such.

It's not when Schumer holds the cards. One statement from him and the shutdown stops. He started it, TRUMP! did not. He can stop it at any time, TRUMP! is not even in the Senate and can't force anything to happen.

Like it or not, this is the Schumer Shutdown, and responsibility for it lies squarely on him.
Yeah, if they change the rules they can stop such a thing.

And who does that benefit? Trump. Why? Because he's going to be number ONE and number TWO for longest shut downs. He doesn't compromise, doesn't understand politics.

Trump has to be the sort of person who does deals "the art of the deal".... and he can't stop this from happening. What a scammer.

No, it's Trump's shutdown. There's a reason why he's got the two longest shutdowns EVER.
 
Yeah, if they change the rules they can stop such a thing.

And who does that benefit? Trump. Why? Because he's going to be number ONE and number TWO for longest shut downs. He doesn't compromise, doesn't understand politics.

Trump has to be the sort of person who does deals "the art of the deal".... and he can't stop this from happening. What a scammer.

No, it's Trump's shutdown. There's a reason why he's got the two longest shutdowns EVER.
1. TRUMP! didn't start the shutdown, that was Schumer.
2. TRUMP!'s not a Senator in the Senate. He doesn't get a vote on cloture.
3. Schumer can stop the shutdown with a single statement. TRUMP! can't force anything to happen.
4. Senate Republicans offered a clean bill with no changes to open things back up. Schumer refused.

This is the Schumer Shutdown and will be until he actually agrees to negotiate. As of now, he's insisted on getting all of his demands or nothing. He's running out of time to act like an adult.
 
1. TRUMP! didn't start the shutdown, that was Schumer.
2. TRUMP!'s not a Senator in the Senate. He doesn't get a vote on cloture.
3. Schumer can stop the shutdown with a single statement. TRUMP! can't force anything to happen.
4. Senate Republicans offered a clean bill with no changes to open things back up. Schumer refused.

This is the Schumer Shutdown and will be until he actually agrees to negotiate. As of now, he's insisted on getting all of his demands or nothing. He's running out of time to act like an adult.

How did Schumer "start the shutdown"???

Trump is the president. President have always had to be DIPLOMATIC and deal with THE SENATE to get what they want done.

Yes, Schumer could stop the shutdown whenever, so could Trump.

Republicans offered something not acceptable. Trump needs to be a better politician.
 
How did Schumer "start the shutdown"???
He stopped all Senate activity. Without his action, the Schumer Shutdown would never have happened. TRUMP! did nothing to start it at all.
Trump is the president. President have always had to be DIPLOMATIC and deal with THE SENATE to get what they want done.
The Senate is independent of the Executive branch, and TRUMP! can't force them to do anything. We learned that in middle school Civics class. Were you absent that week?
Yes, Schumer could stop the shutdown whenever, so could Trump.
TRUMP! could ask them to be adults and go back to work, but it would be up to them to do it. Schumer just stops a filibuster and the adults get back to work right away.
Republicans offered something not acceptable. Trump needs to be a better politician.
And Schumer is insisting all of his demands get met before he lets the Senate get back to work. Schumer need to be a better politician.

This is the Schumer Shutdown and will remain so until he agrees to actually negotiate instead of taking his marbles and going home because reasons.
 
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