With gun violence down, is America arming against an imagined threat?

[rightwinger]

Suicides are not accidental. Nor are they always a bad thing. Having a method of suicide available that is quick and painless is a good thing. Everyone dies. Who are you to tell someone they have to die in a method you prefer?

I prefer a method that does not take a split second and is irreversible

Most suicide is irreversible. Death is just like that.

Drug overdoses, slitting wrists take a while and the person can often call 9-11 and be saved. A gunshot to the head is irreversible and is based on an instantaneous decision

 

[rightwinger]

Isn't it strange that after a bombing, everyone blames the bomber,

but after a shooting, the mindless blame the gun!

Have you ever bought dynamite at WalMart?

You can buy a gun

 

[OODA_Loop]

Isn't it strange that after a bombing, everyone blames the bomber,

but after a shooting, the mindless blame the gun!

Have you ever bought dynamite at WalMart?

You can buy a gun

You can buy a pressure cooker, fireworks, nails, a clock, a cell phone, batteries, timers. wire, connectors, tape and a backpack at WALMART.

 

[rightwinger]

Isn't it strange that after a bombing, everyone blames the bomber,

but after a shooting, the mindless blame the gun!

Have you ever bought dynamite at WalMart?

You can buy a gun

You can buy a pressure cooker, fireworks, nails, a clock, a cell phone, batteries, timers. wire, connectors, tape and a backpack at WALMART.

We have severe restrictions on purchasing explosives. You actually have to be licensed. No such restrictions on guns are there?

 

[Spoonman]

I prefer a method that does not take a split second and is irreversible

Most suicide is irreversible. Death is just like that.

Drug overdoses, slitting wrists take a while and the person can often call 9-11 and be saved. A gunshot to the head is irreversible and is based on an instantaneous decision

and, your point is?

 

[Spoonman]

Have you ever bought dynamite at WalMart?

You can buy a gun

You can buy a pressure cooker, fireworks, nails, a clock, a cell phone, batteries, timers. wire, connectors, tape and a backpack at WALMART.

We have severe restrictions on purchasing explosives. You actually have to be licensed. No such restrictions on guns are there?

you can make your own gun powder

 

[HomeInspect]

Isn't it strange that after a bombing, everyone blames the bomber,

but after a shooting, the mindless blame the gun!

Have you ever bought dynamite at WalMart?

You can buy a gun

You can buy a pressure cooker and the ingredients for the Boston bombs at WallMart.. so what's your point?

 

[HomeInspect]

Have you ever bought dynamite at WalMart?

You can buy a gun

You can buy a pressure cooker, fireworks, nails, a clock, a cell phone, batteries, timers. wire, connectors, tape and a backpack at WALMART.

We have severe restrictions on purchasing explosives. You actually have to be licensed. No such restrictions on guns are there?

You can make your own explosives easily... it's harder to make your own gun... so again, your point is ???

 

[rdean]

Republicans and gun violence:

The Durango Herald 03/09/2013 | Most gun deaths in state are suicides

Suicides accounted for 76 percent of the 6,258 deaths from guns over the 12 years, while homicides comprised 20 percent. The rest were either accidental, legal shootings by law-enforcement officers, or unexplained. Nationally, about 60 percent of gun deaths are suicides.

Gun suicides were disproportionately committed by white residents

Red State vs. Blue State battle: Suicide rates

When you look at the lies and emptiness of following frauds like Sailer, Limbaugh, and the Republicans, it really comes as no surprise depression, hopelessness, and suicide prevails among the right-wingers.

 

[Saigon]

I prefer a method that does not take a split second and is irreversible

Most suicide is irreversible. Death is just like that.

Drug overdoses, slitting wrists take a while and the person can often call 9-11 and be saved. A gunshot to the head is irreversible and is based on an instantaneous decision

I guess that is what it comes down to.

And of course if there is a gun on hand, that decision may be made in seconds - going out to buy pills is not as quick and "easy".

I'm surprised to see 3 or 4 posters really struggle to get their head around the fact that guns do not cause suicide - but enable successful suicide attempts - when I guess most of us have heard stories about people taking pills and then changing their mind or being found in time.

It is exactly the kind of point the NRA and gun-enthusiasts should admit, certainly.

 

[Saigon]

FA Q2 -

Can you link to the gun control measure that you are referring to?

I'm not sure if this question is aimed at me, but if so, I am referring to the gun control measures implemented in the UK after Dunblane in 1997.

In response to this debate, the Firearms (Amendment) Act 1997 and the Firearms (Amendment) (No. 2) Act 1997 were enacted, which effectively made private ownership of handguns illegal in the United Kingdom.

Dunblane school massacre - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I don't know if you followed UK papers at the time, but the sudden spike in violent crime (but not murders) was most definitely attributed to gun control measures at the time, and thus the equally sudden drop has to be linked as well. I actually think it is fairly obvious in the chart that the law is passed, the rate suddenly skyrockets, and then plummets. I can't imagine what else could have caused that.

Most reliable sources, including the UK police, see the gun control measures taken in the UK as having been extremely effective, and I think the chart proves why.

 

[Saigon]

no. its a fact. you don't have nearly the amount of blacks and mexicans in european cities.

Stats? Link?

Because the stats I have here show that cities like Rotterdam, Birmingham and Vienna have higher rates of immigrants than most US cities.

You made the claim - let's see your stats first.

btw. Do you know what a capital letter is? Use them!

Dishonestly moving the goal posts? Immigrants does not equate with blacks and Mexicans.
Oops.

You seem to be at a severe disadvantage here.

Yeah, I am at the disadvatange of sticking to facts, rather than mindless racism. Ironically, the idea that countries like Germany and France because they do not have high numbers of Mexicans shows a peculiar respect for the massive Algerian, Moroccan and West African migrants they obviously do have.

As I said earlier - this is NOT your best argument.

I am also still waiting for you to admit that you misinterpreted the chart, after you blasted others for doing so. It's just simple, basic honesty.

Spoon -

Still waiting to see those stats.

 

[9thIDdoc]

FA Q2 -

Can you link to the gun control measure that you are referring to?

I'm not sure if this question is aimed at me, but if so, I am referring to the gun control measures implemented in the UK after Dunblane in 1997.

In response to this debate, the Firearms (Amendment) Act 1997 and the Firearms (Amendment) (No. 2) Act 1997 were enacted, which effectively made private ownership of handguns illegal in the United Kingdom.

Dunblane school massacre - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I don't know if you followed UK papers at the time, but the sudden spike in violent crime (but not murders) was most definitely attributed to gun control measures at the time, and thus the equally sudden drop has to be linked as well. I actually think it is fairly obvious in the chart that the law is passed, the rate suddenly skyrockets, and then plummets. I can't imagine what else could have caused that.

Most reliable sources, including the UK police, see the gun control measures taken in the UK as having been extremely effective, and I think the chart proves why.

Right. Your chart shows that gun control measures resulted in a major increase in violent crime. This is supposed to be a good thing??

 

[Saigon]

9thIDoc -

I think you may need to look at the chart again.

UK homicide rates are now 50% down on what they were.

Violent crime rates have plumetted after a terrible initial spike.

Murder rates in the UK are around 1/4 of those in the US, and gun-related murder rates a mere fraction of US rates.


With suicide - some 19,000 Americans committed suicide with a firearm last year. It was the leading method used by men, and second most popular with women (after poisoning). Hanging also seems disturbingly common.

 

[Unkotare]

guns do not cause suicide - but enable successful suicide attempts -

So do tall buildings.

 

[buckeye45_73]

guns do not cause suicide - but enable successful suicide attempts -

So do tall buildings.

knockout!!!!!!!!

 

[FA_Q2]

FA Q2 -

Can you link to the gun control measure that you are referring to?

I'm not sure if this question is aimed at me, but if so, I am referring to the gun control measures implemented in the UK after Dunblane in 1997.

In response to this debate, the Firearms (Amendment) Act 1997 and the Firearms (Amendment) (No. 2) Act 1997 were enacted, which effectively made private ownership of handguns illegal in the United Kingdom.

Dunblane school massacre - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I don't know if you followed UK papers at the time, but the sudden spike in violent crime (but not murders) was most definitely attributed to gun control measures at the time, and thus the equally sudden drop has to be linked as well. I actually think it is fairly obvious in the chart that the law is passed, the rate suddenly skyrockets, and then plummets. I can't imagine what else could have caused that.

Most reliable sources, including the UK police, see the gun control measures taken in the UK as having been extremely effective, and I think the chart proves why.

Yes, it was pointed at you because you DIRECTLY claimed that the law was changed in 2003:

Jon -

Please look at the graph. The gun control laws were passed in 2003, and are marked in pink.

Notice that the rate of murders now is lower than in 2003.

Thus, the rate of murders is now lower than it was when laws were passed.

I hope that is now clear for you.

The preceding was flat out incorrect. I will not go so far as ‘lied’ because you might have mistyped but I wanted that pointed as I believe your entire point hinges on that fact. If you were correct, your supposition would be viable. However, because the laws were NOT passed in 2003, your conclusions and assertions to what this graph displays are misplaced IMHO.

You have not mentioned anything about 1997 until now. All you talked about was crime since 2003. You are claiming the chart says what you want it to state, not what it actually does. I can’t fathom how you can claim the chart shows gun laws as effective when the crime rate rose for six years after the law passed. Six years of a steady homicide rate increase and extremely sharp increase in violent crime. Then, after 2003, a sharp decline and a decline in homicides occurred. How are you going to attribute the recent crime trends to a decade old law that seen the opposite trend after it was passed?

More than likely, we should be looking to laws and/or cultural shifts that occurred in 2002 or possibly 2001. Laws do not magically become extremely effective six years later when they were utter failures in the meantime.

Where is the logic in that? If it was the gun laws reducing crime rates then what you would have seen is POSSIBLY an increase the first year and a reversal of the trend following that. Instead, we seen the trend completely unaffected for the first few years and drastically increased in the next few years before something changed. That something is what is affecting the crime rates, not the decade old law.

What that chart really says is that gun laws likely have no effect whatsoever on crime. This is the likely reality here.

 

[Saigon]

FA_Q2 -

Fair enough - I had remember the law change as 2003, but obviously it was 2007. My mistake. Looking at the graph it's not easy to see exactly where the line is, of course.

Laws do not magically become extremely effective six years later when they were utter failures in the meantime.

Gun laws do - because guns do not disappear from the streets overnight. It takes time for the level of gun ownership to begin to drop, whether through buy-back schemes or just lower sales of guns.

If the US implemented gun safety laws tomorrow, I would expect it to take five years for it to really start to make a difference at street level.

I can’t fathom how you can claim the chart shows gun laws as effective when the crime rate rose for six years after the law passed

Because the spike was followed by an equally sudden drop that meant that levels of violent crime in 2013 will probably be below those of the late 1980's.

I think that has to be considered effective in the long term, despite the obvious short-term problems.

I agree absolutely that there will always be other issues involved, but I don't think many factors other than laws will mean as much of a sea-change in societal patterns. Most events in society that effect crime rates will only do so for a year or two - as was possibly the case with that brief crime spike. I know at the time there was a lot of discussion about that spike, but I don't recall the issues mentioned.

 

[JoeB131]

guns do not cause suicide - but enable successful suicide attempts -

So do tall buildings.

16,000 suicides by gun last year...

vs.

a few dozen successful jumps off tall buildings.

But here's the gag. Owners of tall buildings actually take measures to make sure that people don't jump off their buildings. Windows are locked, doors are locked, there are security measures taken.

Unlike the gun industry... where, hey, just because you're mentally ill shouldn't stop you from excercising your second amendment rights!

 

[OODA_Loop]

Unlike the gun industry... where, hey, just because you're mentally ill shouldn't stop you from excercising your second amendment rights!

Guns can not legally be owned by the mentally ill.