Dr.House
Lives on in syndication!
Ain't easy being a fleebagger....
WISCONSIN:'Constitutional crisis'...Senate Orders Arrest Of Missing Democrats
- Thread starter The T
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Ain't easy being a fleebagger....
Big Fitz
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RW's gone over the edge lately. Pay them no heed. The delusional bubble has gotten extra thick.
Quantum Windbag
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Have they also agreed not to force school districts to buy over priced insurance through a company they own? In tha t phone conversation he was following the lead of the prank caller, and you want to complain about what he said. Tell me something, if a prank caller had called up Obama and got him to talk about sending people to Wisconsin to break the attempt to disenfranchise the unions, would you be blaming Obama or the prank caller?
That could be because you are an idiot who believes everything you read. I hate to break it to you, but even the unions are admitting that is not true. Or are you saying the teachers union is so bad at math that they are willing to contribute more than 100% of the cost of their pensions to their pensions? If they are, I think the unions should not only be broken, they should be required to apologize to their members. The teachers would have been better off burying their money in the schoolyard.
Are you really that stupid?
No they are not. What the pensions actually consist off is payments from the taxpayers, and promises from the politicians. Nice try though.
But, let us say that your math actually works in the real world. Shouldn't the taxpayers be able to negotiate with the unions to reduce their costs? Or are the only people that are allowed to have a voice in this discussion the unions?
Whine whine whine. People have money, and I don't like it. Everyone but the people I like should be poor.
I do not give a fuck, and not just because your math skills suck.
Hey genius. I said that the unions selling health insurance from a company they own, and then demanding that school districts buy that insurance, is a conflict of interest. The proof of that is that the health insurance they sell costs more than a comparable policy. It is not the teachers that are corrupt, it is the teachers unions. How much do the union officials make from the health insurance they sell?
So what? They have more benefits. And, as I have said before, government employment should not be a career, it should be a career move. People choose to go into government work as a career because they like the security. Earning a few dollars less for that security is part of the trade off.
Thanks for spouting all the talking points at me though. Is it at all possible that you will ever actually think about what you are saying?
bodecea
Diamond Member
- Banned
- #324
I never made teachers out to be anything, I made the unions out to be what they are. Personally I see the teachers as stuck in the middle, I am sure they want what they have but then again so does just about anyone who has been fed on the expectations they have, its not a crime. Its a learned response.
That being said I would not be surprised if some of the individuals once free from having their dues collected automatically beg off sending it voluntarily. *shrugs*.
If that be the case, they shouldn't get the benefits of union negotiations....let them negotiate for themselves...I understand that management would be quite agreeable to 1 on 1 negotiations.
WHY do they have to negotiate on such a piss-poor record?
Exhibit A?
Quantum Windbag
Gold Member
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you know trajan, that last line sounds good, until you google who actually negotiates with teachers each year....
EACH SCHOOL DISTrict negotiates with their own teachers, NOT some politician in their Capital....
fyi....i googled it, after you had mentioned such earlier, and i said i didn't know how that worked....
care
What makes you think that the desire to bribe the public starts at the top. Politicians usually start at the local level and work their way up, learning along the way that the more money they promise to people the more votes they get.
By the way, just because each local district negotiates as a separate entity it does not mean the union does. The union can use its bargaining power in one district to influence the contracts in another.
Trajan
conscientia mille testes
so you are NOT for local gvt, close at hand to the citizens within each town or district???????????????? vs the State or Federal big shots getting their hands in to it?
this is getting confusing trajan....
who else can you blame?
the teacher's union or teachers are NOT what has made the State's huge budget deficit, but they were willing to give up benefits and salary to help out....
yet YOU and others make them out to be the scum of the earth....
Honestly, you have really blown my mind on this issue....you really have....
Personally, I think if the governor cares so much about the deficit, HE SHOULD GIVE UP HIS SALARY and his benefits.... I am sure he can afford to work probono....for the sake of saving the State!!!
my bets are that the dude gets recalled after a year in office....if he keeps this demonizing up!
That being said I would not be surprised if some of the individuals once free from having their dues collected automatically beg off sending it voluntarily. *shrugs*.
If that be the case, they shouldn't get the benefits of union negotiations....let them negotiate for themselves...I understand that management would be quite agreeable to 1 on 1 negotiations.
did you read the article I posted above your quoted post?
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you know trajan, that last line sounds good, until you google who actually negotiates with teachers each year....
EACH SCHOOL DISTrict negotiates with their own teachers, NOT some politician in their Capital....
fyi....i googled it, after you had mentioned such earlier, and i said i didn't know how that worked....
care
What makes you think that the desire to bribe the public starts at the top. Politicians usually start at the local level and work their way up, learning along the way that the more money they promise to people the more votes they get.
By the way, just because each local district negotiates as a separate entity it does not mean the union does. The union can use its bargaining power in one district to influence the contracts in another.
i'm sure scum exists at all levels, but in town, close to home, your chances are better to see them face to face....to catch what's happening.... at the state capital, or even worse, the federal level....your chances are nil, of knowing what;s going on, you're too far removed....that's one of the reason i thought our founders believed in a smaller federal....so our gvt could be more hands on, locally?
Quantum Windbag
Gold Member
- May 9, 2010
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you know trajan, that last line sounds good, until you google who actually negotiates with teachers each year....
EACH SCHOOL DISTrict negotiates with their own teachers, NOT some politician in their Capital....
fyi....i googled it, after you had mentioned such earlier, and i said i didn't know how that worked....
care
What makes you think that the desire to bribe the public starts at the top. Politicians usually start at the local level and work their way up, learning along the way that the more money they promise to people the more votes they get.
By the way, just because each local district negotiates as a separate entity it does not mean the union does. The union can use its bargaining power in one district to influence the contracts in another.
i'm sure scum exists at all levels, but in town, close to home, your chances are better to see them face to face....to catch what's happening.... at the state capital, or even worse, the federal level....your chances are nil, of knowing what;s going on, you're too far removed....that's one of the reason i thought our founders believed in a smaller federal....so our gvt could be more hands on, locally?
I think they wanted a government that was big enough to do its job, and no bigger. As for your belief that it is easier to see corruption at the local level, I could point out that some serial killers manage to have normal lives, marry, and raise families. If it were easy to see it just because it was in front of you we would not have needed to wait for Edison to come along and invent everything he did.
Article 15
Dr. House slayer
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His latest bluff has been called and once again Walker turned over nothing.
Bfgrn
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I see you continue to chop up my posts instead of writing whole responses. It causes a disconnected conversation. But I have come to expect that from the right because the truth is always their menace that needs to be obscured. Also, wasn't it you who chastises for name calling? Better take your own advice windbag.
It's ironic that you accuse me of believing everything I read, then you proceed to spout everything Gov Walker says. If anything has become clear about Walker, he is a liar. It is also clear from his phone conversation and his actions since gaining office that he gained the power of Governor by hiding his real agenda from the people of Wisconsin.
You accuse Obama of the same. So in the realm of your moral and ethical values, two wrongs make a right. But here's your problem; Obama didn't lie to gain office. He has done everything he said he was going to do during his campaign. If anyone should be disappointed with the President, it's liberals and progressives. Obama campaigned on health care reform, which he delivered, but he also said it must include a public option. Instead we got the early '90's Republican, Heritage Foundation generated Individual Mandate.
And it is also ironic that in the same realm of your moral and ethical values, personal responsibility doesn't apply to beloved right wing authority figures like Walker. The poor man is merely a victim of a prank caller. So anything he said during that conversation is null & void.
BTW, there is a response to Walker's claims about W.E.A. Trust. Should they get to respond? Probably not, because you have already decided that even though Walker has been caught lying, it really doesn't matter. He has provided you with the talking points you need.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Response to Governor Walker's Statements.
Governor Walker has stated that school districts are “forced” to buy from the WEA Trust.
* School boards bargain their benefits and carriers. The Trust only provides health insurance benefits to approximately 35% of public school employees in Wisconsin. Some of the largest school districts in Wisconsin such as Milwaukee, Madison, and Green Bay are self-insured or purchase from companies other than the Trust. Our contracts are with the school districts—not with the unions.
* WisconsinÂ’s health insurance industry is highly competitive and districts already solicit bids. The Trust gains and loses districts all the time. A recent example of this is the Kenosha Unified School District, which left the Trust and has returned, much due to our competitive pricing.
For example:
Trust rate increases have been BELOW national averages for the past three years. For the fourth year in a row the Trust has delivered a mid single-digit base rate increase.
Governor Walker has also stated, “If instead of being forced to buy from the WEA Trust, which is the teacher’s union health insurance company, school districts could buy off the state employee health care plan—they could save 68 million dollars.”
* School Districts are not forced to buy from the Trust and can already join the state health plan. Furthermore, the WEA Trust was chosen by the Wisconsin Group Insurance Board in 2010 to be in the State Group Health Insurance Program in 24 counties. The Trust was selected as a Tier One option, the lowest cost tier in the state plan. In order to be placed in Tier One in the state plan, the Trust must be extremely competitive. Our pricing is not an artificial price but comparable to what the Trust charges school districts.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
You said:
"So what? They have more benefits. And, as I have said before, government employment should not be a career, it should be a career move. People choose to go into government work as a career because they like the security. Earning a few dollars less for that security is part of the trade off."
This is beyond the pale. Because you have 'said it before', it is not social engineering and ignorance? You get to decide what should and shouldn't be another person's career? What their motivations should be? Based on what? Your twisted values? Really???
YOU said:
"People choose to go into government work as a career because they like the security. Earning a few dollars less for that security is part of the trade off."
But that is not acceptable to YOU? What about THEM windbag, do they get to decide? And because they are not doing what YOU have decided is their calling, we have the right to slash their pay that YOU JUST ADMITTED is less?
So you want the schoolteacher who educates your children, the nurse who tends to you and your family in the hospital, the EMT's who rush to the scene of your car wreck and the snow plow driver who maneuvers by your parked car at 2 AM so you can get to work at 8AM to be rookies and entry level sorts. So they can move on to YOUR aspirations for them? To be what, a hedge fund manager, a pay day loan shark?
What is really going on here is class warfare. This is an attack on the heart of what this nation was founded on, and the moral fabric of a civil society that resides in the citizens who are givers, not takers. NO ONE decides to become a schoolteacher, a nurse or an EMT for personal gain or to get rich monetarily.
Republicans have decided the only way to place the final nail in the coffin of the New Deal and what made America the envy of the world, a robust middle class, is to demonize the givers and hail the takers. That way they can do what conservatives have always done. Create an aristocracy. Since Reagan, Republicans have worked hard to recreate the plutocracy and aristocracy of the Gilded Age.
The LEAST patriotic takers in America today are the mega corporations like the Koch brothers who are one of the biggest polluters on the planet and Walker's puppeteers. They have sold out America and her people for personal gain. They have been able to internalize their profits and externalize their workforce and their costs, through years of buying government puppets like Walker.
Governor Walker has shown his hand, this is not about fiscal responsibility. The givers he is targeting are willing to give. They will comply with all his monetary demands. But that is not extracting enough for Walker and his corporate masters...he must extract every shred of self determination and dignity.
So I say to you and all the authoritarian followers and worshipers of the despot Walkers of the world...it will not stop with schoolteachers, nurses, EMT's, snowplow drivers or unions...
When the Nazis came for the schoolteachers,
I remained silent;
I was not a schoolteacher.
Trajan
conscientia mille testes
*shrugs*
snip-
Districts that buy WEA Trust plans average $1,665 a month for family premiums, according to their state association, while those choosing other carriers average $1,466. The difference is greatest where taxpayers cover the whole premium.
Milton was paying $48,301 more in premiums for every month that it couldn’t switch from WEA Trust to a pair of plans from Madison-based Dean Health and Janesville-based MercyCare that it said were comparable. The district already had switched its administrative staff, said Nikolay, and while the union objected that the new plans would restrict choices, most teachers already used doctors at Dean or MercyCare clinics, Nikolay noted. “That made it less problematic for a lot of our families.”
And it saved a bundle for a district saddled with “bleak local economic conditions,” as its arbitration case put it. It is losing students and, thus, state aid. The area is losing population. The district needed to control premiums, and the arbitrator agreed.
The question is why it had to go to arbitration at all. The answer is that in Wisconsin, school districts can’t change health carriers – even if they keep benefits the same – without negotiating. And teachers unions have been very partial to keeping WEA Trust.
This may be changing. If unions won’t agree to dump WEA Trust plans, a district could always get an arbitrator to side with them. But districts were loath to use arbitration, which they could lose badly, so long as they had the old qualified economic offer law in place.
That guarantee of no arbitration in exchange for a certain compensation hike got killed, however, by Democrats last year.
How Milton schools saved a bundle - of your money - JSOnline
snip-
Districts that buy WEA Trust plans average $1,665 a month for family premiums, according to their state association, while those choosing other carriers average $1,466. The difference is greatest where taxpayers cover the whole premium.
Milton was paying $48,301 more in premiums for every month that it couldn’t switch from WEA Trust to a pair of plans from Madison-based Dean Health and Janesville-based MercyCare that it said were comparable. The district already had switched its administrative staff, said Nikolay, and while the union objected that the new plans would restrict choices, most teachers already used doctors at Dean or MercyCare clinics, Nikolay noted. “That made it less problematic for a lot of our families.”
And it saved a bundle for a district saddled with “bleak local economic conditions,” as its arbitration case put it. It is losing students and, thus, state aid. The area is losing population. The district needed to control premiums, and the arbitrator agreed.
The question is why it had to go to arbitration at all. The answer is that in Wisconsin, school districts can’t change health carriers – even if they keep benefits the same – without negotiating. And teachers unions have been very partial to keeping WEA Trust.
This may be changing. If unions won’t agree to dump WEA Trust plans, a district could always get an arbitrator to side with them. But districts were loath to use arbitration, which they could lose badly, so long as they had the old qualified economic offer law in place.
That guarantee of no arbitration in exchange for a certain compensation hike got killed, however, by Democrats last year.
How Milton schools saved a bundle - of your money - JSOnline
Bfgrn
Gold Member
- Apr 4, 2009
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The word for the day...VALUE
WEA Trust delivers 93 cents on every dollar a member pays in the form of benefits. The private insurance cartels are being forced to spend 80 cents in the form of benefits by the new Affordable Care Act. It was necessary because Wall Street investors, who control the health insurance industry were severely punishing insurance companies that paid out too much for benefits. It is the root cause of the REAL death panels, insurance cartels denying coverage for severe illnesses.
National survey scores WEA Trust number one in Wisconsin.
Survey also ranks Wisconsin's school health plan third in the nation
http://www.weatrust.com/wea/weamain.nsf/dr_dlview/CAHPSrelease.pdf/$file/CAHPSrelease.pdf?OpenElement
WEA Trust: Not Your Typical Insurance Company
WEA Trust is the number one health insurance provider in the state of Wisconsin and the number two provider in the US, according to the recent 2009 Consumer Assessment of Healthcare Providers and Systems (CAHPS) survey, an independent national survey which includes hundreds of health plans across the country. The Trust has the advantage of serving a captive audience: it was created by the largest teacherÂ’s union in the state, Wisconsin Educational Association Council (WEAC), to serve all public school districts with a WEAC affiliate, which total approximately 400 districts. From its inception nearly 40 years ago, the company has been striving to be a different kind of insurance company.
“Most people don’t trust their health insurance provider,” said CEO Fred Evert. “We aim to establish long-term relationships with our members to help them be as healthy, productive, and as financially secure as possible.”
He explained that this mission is achieved in part through the TrustÂ’s emphasis on excellent customer service. The organization is exceedingly efficient: Evert said the company has historically delivered 93 cents on every dollar a member pays in the form of benefits. Furthermore, the company still has every call answered personally by a staff member during business hours and strives to have members transferred only once. The company also staffs extra hands before and after school hours when most teachers have time to call their insurance company.
Over the last few years, the Trust has made several investments in its infrastructure to augment its customer service, including adding 60,000 square feet of space to its campus and updating its state-of-the-art phone system. Evert added that he and his team emphasize the benefits of partnerships, such as those with Ingenix software or with the state’s Department of Public Instruction (DPI), in delivering innovative products and exceptional service—hallmarks of the Trust brand.
For example, the Trust underwrites the cost to place DPIÂ’s anti-bullying curriculum in every middle school and high school in Wisconsin. Evert wrote an editorial that ran in all the major state newspapers to support this anti-bullying campaign, Safe and Respectful Schools, saying an unsafe school is not a healthy school. In addition to working to create safer learning environments for Wisconsin children, this partnership distinguishes the Trust as a different type of insurance company.
Through its partnership with Ingenix, the Trust uses a number of software programs to coordinate care for its members. Perhaps the most significant of these is CarePlanner Web, which allows the Trust to use claims information to identify individuals with serious medical risks. Evert said the company works with providers and members to improve quality of care and manage costs.
Evert was proud to report that because of the Trust’s innovative services and excellent service, it enjoys a member persistence rate of more than 95%. “We offer a variety of programs and services to help our members get the care they need at the right place, the right time, and at the right price,” he said.
Ensuring wellness
The Trust has a four-part wellness plan that uses technology and a personal touch to help members stay healthy. The first piece is an online health risk assessment. The company has implemented a number of incentives and educational campaigns about the benefits of such a test, and in 2007, a record 46,000 members took the assessment.
Another piece is the Ingenix ImpactPro software, which takes information from assessments and claims data to identify at-risk individuals. This allows the Trust to communicate with members and make sure they are using the resources that are available to them.
The third piece is a case management system, which includes a number of programs for members with different chronic diseases, like diabetes, cancer, or heart disease. These programs help members get the right care at the right time.
The fourth piece is a software system called Impact Intelligence, which allows the Trust to analyze claims data and work with providers to improve the quality of care. Evert said the company compares providers, partners with those who provide the highest quality care for the lowest cost, and then steers members toward them.
“The rising cost of healthcare necessitates that we choose to get care in the most efficacious and least costly settings, and this technology helps us guide members toward that,” said Evert.
Pending board approval later this year, the Trust plans to offer a new program with its wellness offerings: Trust Rewards. This program is designed to give members an incentive to engage in healthy practices and get regular screenings. The company already sends every member a birthday card on his or her 50th birthday to remind them to get a colonoscopy; Evert said screening rates improved by 22% from that simple measure alone.
The Trust also sponsors programs that include community outreach and education initiatives, like the MovinÂ’ and MunchinÂ’ program, which is in conjunction with the DPI. Through MovinÂ’ and MunchinÂ’, the company sponsors two Wisconsin Olympians to speak at school districts across the state, encouraging adults and kids to adopt healthy behaviors. With the help of the Trust, the program has increased participation nearly 400%, including 170 schools in 2008, up from 34 in 2007.
More at American Executive Magazine
WEA Trust delivers 93 cents on every dollar a member pays in the form of benefits. The private insurance cartels are being forced to spend 80 cents in the form of benefits by the new Affordable Care Act. It was necessary because Wall Street investors, who control the health insurance industry were severely punishing insurance companies that paid out too much for benefits. It is the root cause of the REAL death panels, insurance cartels denying coverage for severe illnesses.
National survey scores WEA Trust number one in Wisconsin.
Survey also ranks Wisconsin's school health plan third in the nation
http://www.weatrust.com/wea/weamain.nsf/dr_dlview/CAHPSrelease.pdf/$file/CAHPSrelease.pdf?OpenElement
WEA Trust: Not Your Typical Insurance Company
WEA Trust is the number one health insurance provider in the state of Wisconsin and the number two provider in the US, according to the recent 2009 Consumer Assessment of Healthcare Providers and Systems (CAHPS) survey, an independent national survey which includes hundreds of health plans across the country. The Trust has the advantage of serving a captive audience: it was created by the largest teacherÂ’s union in the state, Wisconsin Educational Association Council (WEAC), to serve all public school districts with a WEAC affiliate, which total approximately 400 districts. From its inception nearly 40 years ago, the company has been striving to be a different kind of insurance company.
“Most people don’t trust their health insurance provider,” said CEO Fred Evert. “We aim to establish long-term relationships with our members to help them be as healthy, productive, and as financially secure as possible.”
He explained that this mission is achieved in part through the TrustÂ’s emphasis on excellent customer service. The organization is exceedingly efficient: Evert said the company has historically delivered 93 cents on every dollar a member pays in the form of benefits. Furthermore, the company still has every call answered personally by a staff member during business hours and strives to have members transferred only once. The company also staffs extra hands before and after school hours when most teachers have time to call their insurance company.
Over the last few years, the Trust has made several investments in its infrastructure to augment its customer service, including adding 60,000 square feet of space to its campus and updating its state-of-the-art phone system. Evert added that he and his team emphasize the benefits of partnerships, such as those with Ingenix software or with the state’s Department of Public Instruction (DPI), in delivering innovative products and exceptional service—hallmarks of the Trust brand.
For example, the Trust underwrites the cost to place DPIÂ’s anti-bullying curriculum in every middle school and high school in Wisconsin. Evert wrote an editorial that ran in all the major state newspapers to support this anti-bullying campaign, Safe and Respectful Schools, saying an unsafe school is not a healthy school. In addition to working to create safer learning environments for Wisconsin children, this partnership distinguishes the Trust as a different type of insurance company.
Through its partnership with Ingenix, the Trust uses a number of software programs to coordinate care for its members. Perhaps the most significant of these is CarePlanner Web, which allows the Trust to use claims information to identify individuals with serious medical risks. Evert said the company works with providers and members to improve quality of care and manage costs.
Evert was proud to report that because of the Trust’s innovative services and excellent service, it enjoys a member persistence rate of more than 95%. “We offer a variety of programs and services to help our members get the care they need at the right place, the right time, and at the right price,” he said.
Ensuring wellness
The Trust has a four-part wellness plan that uses technology and a personal touch to help members stay healthy. The first piece is an online health risk assessment. The company has implemented a number of incentives and educational campaigns about the benefits of such a test, and in 2007, a record 46,000 members took the assessment.
Another piece is the Ingenix ImpactPro software, which takes information from assessments and claims data to identify at-risk individuals. This allows the Trust to communicate with members and make sure they are using the resources that are available to them.
The third piece is a case management system, which includes a number of programs for members with different chronic diseases, like diabetes, cancer, or heart disease. These programs help members get the right care at the right time.
The fourth piece is a software system called Impact Intelligence, which allows the Trust to analyze claims data and work with providers to improve the quality of care. Evert said the company compares providers, partners with those who provide the highest quality care for the lowest cost, and then steers members toward them.
“The rising cost of healthcare necessitates that we choose to get care in the most efficacious and least costly settings, and this technology helps us guide members toward that,” said Evert.
Pending board approval later this year, the Trust plans to offer a new program with its wellness offerings: Trust Rewards. This program is designed to give members an incentive to engage in healthy practices and get regular screenings. The company already sends every member a birthday card on his or her 50th birthday to remind them to get a colonoscopy; Evert said screening rates improved by 22% from that simple measure alone.
The Trust also sponsors programs that include community outreach and education initiatives, like the MovinÂ’ and MunchinÂ’ program, which is in conjunction with the DPI. Through MovinÂ’ and MunchinÂ’, the company sponsors two Wisconsin Olympians to speak at school districts across the state, encouraging adults and kids to adopt healthy behaviors. With the help of the Trust, the program has increased participation nearly 400%, including 170 schools in 2008, up from 34 in 2007.
More at American Executive Magazine
Trajan
conscientia mille testes
and?
Big Fitz
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Since that was a hymn to socialism, I guess that settles who's really protesting, knowingly or not.Les Misérables protest song in Madison capital (Flash mob)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jVEMZSP8Ypk
Or overly theatrical idiots who are looking for work in the area.
I'm sure if they sang "Castle in the Clouds" or "Master of the House" it'd be even more appropriate.
Since that was a hymn to socialism, I guess that settles who's really protesting, knowingly or not.Les Misérables protest song in Madison capital (Flash mob)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jVEMZSP8Ypk
Or overly theatrical idiots who are looking for work in the area.
I'm sure if they sang "Castle in the Clouds" or "Master of the House" it'd be even more appropriate.
Loving it, your socialism rants are extremely off the wall.
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Big Fitz
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Seen the musical or listened to the song? Every pay close attention to the revolutionaries in the source material?Since that was a hymn to socialism, I guess that settles who's really protesting, knowingly or not.Les Misérables protest song in Madison capital (Flash mob)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jVEMZSP8Ypk
Or overly theatrical idiots who are looking for work in the area.
I'm sure if they sang "Castle in the Clouds" or "Master of the House" it'd be even more appropriate.
Loving it, your socialism rants are extremely off the wall.
You just keep harping on socialism. Fear, baby fear!
no, sarah, its FACTS and you fear them
Big Fitz
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Fear? Only what socialism does and how it is ALWAYS applied. It's history of destruction, torture, starvation and all the ills of the world are well documented. Fact is fact, socialism and all it's collectivist cousins are evil by nature.
Out of curiosity, can you name one successful application of socialism that created a utopia, wiping out need, want and hunger?
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