Why wouldn't Jesus...
- Thread starter Ravi
- Start date
I'd agree.
Except for when she was coming onto Larry as a guest on The Larry Sanders Show.
Valerie
Platinum Member
- Sep 17, 2008
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Ravi, the implication here seems to be that Christians who believe in fiscal responsibility of government and who do not believe in solving societies problems by simply throwing MORE money into the government tax revenue pool, somehow do not believe in the collective helping of the poor?
Have you ever considered that these Christians are against further expansion of social welfare revenues on the grounds that it gives too much power to the federal government and is therefore not in the best interest of the general welfare?
ALL of us, as individuals, already pay into the federal budget via income tax, property tax, sales tax, etc for trillions of dollars worth of helping people in our society.
There are good arguments to be made for keeping SO much power out of the hands of the federal government where as all people may be better helped via the individual State budgets where there can be more local individual accountability and efficiency.
Perhaps Christian Republicans are not hypocrites at all for wanting to keep the government in check and are simply motivated to protect us ALL from ending up being poor and powerless?
Valerie
Platinum Member
- Sep 17, 2008
- 31,521
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So you really believe only Democrats care about poor people, huh? The question remains, not what does it mean to be poor, but what does it mean to HELP the poor as a collective society?
You notice a few people are bent out of shape by your implication of Christian hypocrisy?
WHY WOULDN'T Jesus want us to structure society to help the poor? As I said, I can't think of any reason and I believe our society is already structured that way.
All I'm saying is I CAN think of reasons why Christians would question HOW to best structure our society for the greater good in order to promote the general social welfare...Not whether to, but HOW to.
Ravi
Diamond Member
- Thread starter
- #166
Methinks you are inferring a lot of baloney from my question.
The question remains, not what does it mean to be poor, but what does it mean to HELP the poor as a collective society?
You notice a few people are bent out of shape by your implication of Christian hypocrisy?
WHY WOULDN'T Jesus want us to structure society to help the poor? As I said, I can't think of any reason and I believe our society is already structured that way.
All I'm saying is I CAN think of reasons why Christians would question HOW to best structure our society for the greater good in order to promote the general social welfare...Not whether to, but HOW to.
Why wouldn't Jesus want us to structure our society to help the poor? I've no idea...that's why I asked the question.
Because I have been told by others that welfare is strictly the business of the individual or private charity because that's what Jesus would want.
Now that we've got at least one religious person (Intense) agreeing that Jesus wouldn't be against voluntarily doing such a think my question has been answered.
Frameset
Matthew Chapter 20:1 - 20:16. The Workers in the Vineyard.
http://www.holybible.org/Parables/parable_index.htm
Matthew Chapter 20:1 - 20:16. The Workers in the Vineyard.
http://www.holybible.org/Parables/parable_index.htm
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Barb
Carpe Scrotum
yes, it is appropriate....
Jesus hated freedom...
I wonder how Jesus felt about forcing us to pay for wars and nuclear weapons and Bunker busters and torture? 
For some reason the focus of repubs seems to be the word FORCE, we are FORCED to pay for the poor...
if the only issue is force, then why not complain about ALL OTHER THINGS we are forced to pay, like the BANKER'S DEBT and nukes...
Would Jesus disagree to those as well because they are so called FORCED on us through taxation?
Why only throw the tizzy fit about being FORCED only when it comes to taking care of the neediest?
This is why i am uncertain that this "thing" is only about FORCE....
And yes the government is inefficient and many don't want them to have more money yah dee dah...
BUT IF THIS WERE THE CASE, why aren't there thread after thread on the government stealing our money when it comes to unnecessary wars, and enough nukes in our ammo to blow up the entire world 100 TIMES or MORE?
It's hard to get a true handle on this being about the inefficiencies of government or FORCE when it seems that helping the POOR is the only time Christians complain vehemently about it...?
Care
For some reason the focus of repubs seems to be the word FORCE, we are FORCED to pay for the poor...
if the only issue is force, then why not complain about ALL OTHER THINGS we are forced to pay, like the BANKER'S DEBT and nukes...
Would Jesus disagree to those as well because they are so called FORCED on us through taxation?
Why only throw the tizzy fit about being FORCED only when it comes to taking care of the neediest?
This is why i am uncertain that this "thing" is only about FORCE....
And yes the government is inefficient and many don't want them to have more money yah dee dah...
BUT IF THIS WERE THE CASE, why aren't there thread after thread on the government stealing our money when it comes to unnecessary wars, and enough nukes in our ammo to blow up the entire world 100 TIMES or MORE?
It's hard to get a true handle on this being about the inefficiencies of government or FORCE when it seems that helping the POOR is the only time Christians complain vehemently about it...?
Care
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The Unions don't approve of the Vineyard Owner deciding for Himself what to do with His Own Resources, Huh, or paying the Last to arrive , first. You have much to work out.
I wonder how Jesus felt about forcing us to pay for wars and nuclear weapons and Bunker busters and torture?
For some reason the focus of repubs seems to be the word FORCE, we are FORCED to pay for the poor...
if the only issue is force, then why not complain about ALL OTHER THINGS we are forced to pay, like the BANKER'S DEBT and nukes...
Would Jesus disagree to those as well because they are so called FORCED on us through taxation?
Why only throw the tizzy fit about being FORCED only when it comes to taking care of the neediest?
This is why i am uncertain that this "thing" is only about FORCE....
And yes the government is inefficient and many don't want them to have more money yah dee dah...
BUT IF THIS WERE THE CASE, why aren't there thread after thread on the government stealing our money when it comes to unnecessary wars, and enough nukes in our ammo to blow up the entire world 100 TIMES or MORE?
It's hard to get a true handle on this being about the inefficiencies of government or FORCE when it seems that helping the POOR is the only time Christians complain vehemently about it...?
Care
Jesus told Us to render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's, and to Render unto God , That Which is God's.
Though Defense is a Concern of Legitimate Government, and Properly so, The Balance of Power within Our Infrastructure was shifted. That effected Military Might, and Control. Keeping us divided and diverted serves Their purpose. Too much is left unaddressed, unquestioned, unjustified.
I would live to see more energy applied to the National Guard, giving the Governors more say, and more feet on the ground domestically. Border Control, Emergency Disaster Response, Special Projects, Etc...
This Caesar serves Itself at Our Expense. It is big on pulling rabbits out of hats tricks for the masses though.
The purpose of the CHRIST was not to feed the poor, change anyone's political ideology, or to redistribute the wealth of the world. Jesus came into a world dominated by two oppressive governments, filled with illegal slavery, poverty was wide spread throughout the majority of the population.... yet, there is NOT ONE passage of the Christ's instruction that sought to change the peoples political, social, or economic status.
Jesus directly declared that His mission was not to feed the flesh which would decay...but rather the SPIRIT which was eternal, He openly chastised those that followed him after the miracle of the loaves and fish.....who where simply looking for their next meal -- John 6:26-27
That was not the purpose that God had sent the Son of Man to earth to engage, He came to fulfill the Old Law (Matthew 5:17-20), to teach the truth of the Gospel (John 18:37), with HIS SERVICE TO THE POOR the teaching of that gospel truth -- Luke 7:22
Jesus did not want to be a Physical King or any kind of Political Leader, "But when the multitudes knew it, they followed Him; and He received them and spoke to them about the kingdom of God, and healed those in need of healing" (Luke 9:11). "Therefore when Jesus perceived that they were about to come and take Him by FORCE TO MAKE HIM KING (a physical king), HE DEPARTED again to the mountains.....BY HIMSELF ALONE." -- John 6:15.
Charity is an individual GIFT of the Spirit....one of the remaining spiritual Gifts of the Spirit of Truth -- 1 Cor. 13:13. The mission of the Church...aka kingdom of God (Matthew 16:16-18)....is to spread the truth of the Gospel, to SAVE SOULS -- Matthew 18:18-20....to teach the Gospel to ALL NATIONS of the world.
Each individual Christian is COMMANDED to personally take care of HIS family and life....to feed and protect those of His personal household, if he does not he is considered less than an infidel -- 1 Tim. 5:8
God has cursed man to earn HIS OWN LIVING by the sweat of his own brow......not BEG for it from his neighbor, when he/she is capable of providing for themselves -- Genesis 3: 17-19.
God cannot nor will not lie. The, ".........imagine of the Invisible God...." (Col. 1:15), THE WORD, the only Begotten Son of God, God incarnate, who's very mission was to TEACH the truth (John 1:1-4), has told us this very TRUTH, "YOU WILL ALWAYS HAVE THE POOR AMONG YOU." -- John 12:8
And NO COMMUNIST COLLECTIVE ideology has the power nor authority to CHANGE the word of GOD....into LIES.
The Kingdom of God..aka the kingdom of Christ/church (Matthew 16:16-28), is not a physical kingdom.....but is found WITHIN all CHRISTIANS -- Luke 17:20-21. It is up to the individual Christian to HAVE CHARITY....or LOVE, such cannot be MANDATED....for then indeed, such is not a free will gift of LOVE.
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I wonder how Jesus felt about forcing us to pay for wars and nuclear weapons and Bunker busters and torture?
For some reason the focus of repubs seems to be the word FORCE, we are FORCED to pay for the poor...
if the only issue is force, then why not complain about ALL OTHER THINGS we are forced to pay, like the BANKER'S DEBT and nukes...
Would Jesus disagree to those as well because they are so called FORCED on us through taxation?
Why only throw the tizzy fit about being FORCED only when it comes to taking care of the neediest?
This is why i am uncertain that this "thing" is only about FORCE....
And yes the government is inefficient and many don't want them to have more money yah dee dah...
BUT IF THIS WERE THE CASE, why aren't there thread after thread on the government stealing our money when it comes to unnecessary wars, and enough nukes in our ammo to blow up the entire world 100 TIMES or MORE?
It's hard to get a true handle on this being about the inefficiencies of government or FORCE when it seems that helping the POOR is the only time Christians complain vehemently about it...?
Care
Jesus told Us to render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's, and to Render unto God , That Which is God's.
Though Defense is a Concern of Legitimate Government, and Properly so, The Balance of Power within Our Infrastructure was shifted. That effected Military Might, and Control. Keeping us divided and diverted serves Their purpose. Too much is left unaddressed, unquestioned, unjustified.
I would live to see more energy applied to the National Guard, giving the Governors more say, and more feet on the ground domestically. Border Control, Emergency Disaster Response, Special Projects, Etc...
This Caesar serves Itself at Our Expense. It is big on pulling rabbits out of hats tricks for the masses though.
yes, i agree to the separation of Church and State that Christ was suggesting by giving unto Caesar, what is his Intense, but feeding the poorest, or the stranger, or visit the one in prison, has nothing to do with religion....those are daily actions that are not Church Doctrine regarding the faith?
And if they are suppose to be separated how do you explain the religious right and their actions and positions regarding religious issues being forced in to government? I say this is because we do not live our inner lives or outer lives separately....we live according to what we believe and there is a cross over in to our government.
Also there are passages in the Bible that speak about the Church having to spend their time feeding the poor is wrong or not what should be done...that the people should be taking care of the poor/needy NOT the Church, because the Church was suppose to be spending their time on spreading the Gospel....? I can try to find the passage if you would like to read it....?
Care
I wonder how Jesus felt about forcing us to pay for wars and nuclear weapons and Bunker busters and torture?
For some reason the focus of repubs seems to be the word FORCE, we are FORCED to pay for the poor...
if the only issue is force, then why not complain about ALL OTHER THINGS we are forced to pay, like the BANKER'S DEBT and nukes...
Would Jesus disagree to those as well because they are so called FORCED on us through taxation?
Why only throw the tizzy fit about being FORCED only when it comes to taking care of the neediest?
This is why i am uncertain that this "thing" is only about FORCE....
And yes the government is inefficient and many don't want them to have more money yah dee dah...
BUT IF THIS WERE THE CASE, why aren't there thread after thread on the government stealing our money when it comes to unnecessary wars, and enough nukes in our ammo to blow up the entire world 100 TIMES or MORE?
It's hard to get a true handle on this being about the inefficiencies of government or FORCE when it seems that helping the POOR is the only time Christians complain vehemently about it...?
Care
Jesus told Us to render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's, and to Render unto God , That Which is God's.
Though Defense is a Concern of Legitimate Government, and Properly so, The Balance of Power within Our Infrastructure was shifted. That effected Military Might, and Control. Keeping us divided and diverted serves Their purpose. Too much is left unaddressed, unquestioned, unjustified.
I would live to see more energy applied to the National Guard, giving the Governors more say, and more feet on the ground domestically. Border Control, Emergency Disaster Response, Special Projects, Etc...
This Caesar serves Itself at Our Expense. It is big on pulling rabbits out of hats tricks for the masses though.
yes, i agree to the separation of Church and State that Christ was suggesting by giving unto Caesar, what is his Intense, but feeding the poorest, or the stranger, or visit the one in prison, has nothing to do with religion....those are daily actions that are not Church Doctrine regarding the faith?
And if they are suppose to be separated how do you explain the religious right and their actions and positions regarding religious issues being forced in to government? I say this is because we do not live our inner lives or outer lives separately....we live according to what we believe and there is a cross over in to our government.
Also there are passages in the Bible that speak about the Church having to spend their time feeding the poor is wrong or not what should be done...that the people should be taking care of the poor/needy NOT the Church, because the Church was suppose to be spending their time on spreading the Gospel....? I can try to find the passage if you would like to read it....?
Care
There is that which concerns Caesar, Material things, Civil Law, Governing Society, and that which pertains to Conscience, Soul Salvation, which the Civil Law has no hold on.
Jesus did distinguish between Individuals, and Government. Try not to confuse that. Kings Decreed what they Willed to a Point, that included Forfeiture and Death.
Jesus said about charity, to give willingly, of a cheerful heart, lose the cheer, close the wallet.... Voluntarily, what you are able.
Armies are first Defensive, there they are justified. Our Government was mandated to protect. Wars, We may indeed enter too easily, I agree something is wrong there. It bears much study. We are too easily manipulated.
When we bail out the Businesses and Banks, we empower those that crashed everything in the first place. Be they Government or Contracted, they consume more money, fortifying their positions at our expense, only to have it washed away with the next high tide. Some of these great Voices could not keep a Kool-Aid Stand in the Green.
When the Religious Right is Correct in Principle regarding Statute, it is Their Right to Advocate it. Majority Rule. Super Majority Rule where Required. It does not matter the source of the Principle, as far as Civil Law is Concerned, what does matter is that it is first Justified, and then accepted. To change that, You must convince enough to the contrary.
I'm reading a novel about an EMF Attack on the USA. "One Second After". William Forstchen. Good Read. It might help your view on Defense Strategy.
HUGGY
I Post Because I Care
The purpose of the CHRIST was not to feed the poor
When I see shit like this... you who don't like it for me to suggest all churches should be burnt to the ground can go fuck yourselves. This is the real truth about religion. Pigs like this hide behind Christ like scared little bitches alongside perverts and child molesters. If you so called good christians don't stand up for "good" and throw these vermin out of your fold you are no better than they are. Burn baby burn!
Huggy, Sweet Pillow Talk is not going to get you on the list. You Can't be on it. Don't beat around the Bush. It's Quantum Physics Huggy. Do You want to be on the List Too! Well You Can't! It Will Ruin Everything! Once You are on the List, It will not Be the List Any More. It Could Vaporize, It could become a black hole and swallow up the Universe. Don't dick around with us that way Huggy. Speak clearly, specifically, to the point, and do not again threaten Creation.
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The assumption....ideas...or speculations about what JESUS would do and would not do offered only in ad hominem SUBJECTIVE OPINION void of any conformation by the Word of God, are all moot in consideration of being defined as truth. Truth is found only in one place, THE WORD OF GOD, and we are admonished to be sanctified therein -- John 17:17, as clearly and quite unambiguously declared by the Christ Himself. If you want to KNOW what Jesus would do...there is only one source to confirm or answer the query with any intellectual honesty, the same source from which the question was asked...it must also be answered, if not we do not have truth, but rather the simple worthless opinion of someone that wants their individual doctrine to be considered as truth. Individual or private interpretation of the scriptures is strictly forbidden -- 2 Peter 1:19-21. What is the point in reasoning WITHOUT TRUTH? For a scriptural query to be answered in truth it must be accompanied by the TRUTH, in Book, Chapter and Verse.
One can PROVE anything when they begin with a false premise....hoping that no one notices the obvious. If I presented made up evidence that is found only in my thoughts void of scriptural conformation....I can then use that false premise to erect any type of structure that I wish to construct.
You see, when you start with false evidence, you cannot make a truthful judgment of final conclusion....you have "dangling" truth....much like the misuse of sentence structure, you might get your point across establishing communication, but such is far from being CORRECT. Half/Truths = ONE WHOLE LIE. The conclusion can be true or false....but void of conformation and verification, it is useless in establishing the absolute truth.
The majority of the posts and retorts along this thread are .....just that......SUBJECTIVE OPINIONS. When you want to confirm what Jesus would do......go to the source and prove it. There is not one person now living in the 21st century that did not learn about Christianity void of the Holy Scriptures and the knowledge and wisdom found therein....no one was born with an inherent knowledge of God's revelation. After all it is the WORD of God...aka the Scriptures which are ALL inspired by God ( 2 Tim. 3:16).......from which All Christian Faith is derived and gestated -- Romans 10:17
Hence if anyone is to be persuaded of the TRUTH....the goal does not justify the means, there is a proper procedure that must be upheld. One must use TRUTH to persuade others of TRUTH. My Word is not truth...nor do I expect anyone to accept my word as truth, UNLESS...I present DEMONSTRABLE evidence of what I am propagating as being truth, this must be OBSERVABLE for everyone to TEST.....and the Holy Scriptures are very observable and very testable, as such.....they can establish TRUTH beyond a reason of a doubt. But my simple opinion void of any evidence is simply TALK that can be true or false.
Personally I merely laugh at the bigoted hatred offered in ad hominem emotion.....always ending with a personal attack. It simply means they are incapable of articulating their position IN TRUTH.
One can PROVE anything when they begin with a false premise....hoping that no one notices the obvious. If I presented made up evidence that is found only in my thoughts void of scriptural conformation....I can then use that false premise to erect any type of structure that I wish to construct.
You see, when you start with false evidence, you cannot make a truthful judgment of final conclusion....you have "dangling" truth....much like the misuse of sentence structure, you might get your point across establishing communication, but such is far from being CORRECT. Half/Truths = ONE WHOLE LIE. The conclusion can be true or false....but void of conformation and verification, it is useless in establishing the absolute truth.
The majority of the posts and retorts along this thread are .....just that......SUBJECTIVE OPINIONS. When you want to confirm what Jesus would do......go to the source and prove it. There is not one person now living in the 21st century that did not learn about Christianity void of the Holy Scriptures and the knowledge and wisdom found therein....no one was born with an inherent knowledge of God's revelation. After all it is the WORD of God...aka the Scriptures which are ALL inspired by God ( 2 Tim. 3:16).......from which All Christian Faith is derived and gestated -- Romans 10:17
Hence if anyone is to be persuaded of the TRUTH....the goal does not justify the means, there is a proper procedure that must be upheld. One must use TRUTH to persuade others of TRUTH. My Word is not truth...nor do I expect anyone to accept my word as truth, UNLESS...I present DEMONSTRABLE evidence of what I am propagating as being truth, this must be OBSERVABLE for everyone to TEST.....and the Holy Scriptures are very observable and very testable, as such.....they can establish TRUTH beyond a reason of a doubt. But my simple opinion void of any evidence is simply TALK that can be true or false.
Personally I merely laugh at the bigoted hatred offered in ad hominem emotion.....always ending with a personal attack. It simply means they are incapable of articulating their position IN TRUTH.
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