Missourian
Diamond Member
Define "helping others within your society" but not personally, if this thread has nothing to do with government run healthcare.
Why wouldn't Jesus...
- Thread starter Ravi
- Start date
Define "helping others within your society" but not personally, if this thread has nothing to do with government run healthcare.
look at ravi's original question of the thread...this is what i was answering....there was no specific government program that i was defending...
i don't believe anyone should haphazardly support any thing... that our representative government decides to spend money on...
I do not believe that was the question of the thread though...at least not to me, it was more philosophical...on whether Jesus would be against it or not....and why.
care
Missourian
Diamond Member
If we aren't talking about the government, then why are we talking about the government?
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I wonder how Jesus felt about forcing us to pay for wars and nuclear weapons and Bunker busters and torture?
For some reason the focus of repubs seems to be the word FORCE, we are FORCED to pay for the poor...
if the only issue is force, then why not complain about ALL OTHER THINGS we are forced to pay, like the BANKER'S DEBT and nukes...
Would Jesus disagree to those as well because they are so called FORCED on us through taxation?
Why only throw the tizzy fit about being FORCED only when it comes to taking care of the neediest?
This is why i am uncertain that this "thing" is only about FORCE....
And yes the government is inefficient and many don't want them to have more money yah dee dah...
BUT IF THIS WERE THE CASE, why aren't there thread after thread on the government stealing our money when it comes to unnecessary wars, and enough nukes in our ammo to blow up the entire world 100 TIMES or MORE?
It's hard to get a true handle on this being about the inefficiencies of government or FORCE when it seems that helping the POOR is the only time Christians complain vehemently about it...?
Care
I said we were not talking about specific legislation... Ravi's question was NOT about specific legislation.
You were....when you pulled in the health care bill...at least I thought that you were trying to...and I thought this was more of an "in general, philosophical aspect" question of Ravi's, and this is how I approached it.
Missourian
Diamond Member
Fair enough.
Let me ask you a question.
Do you trust the Senators and Representatives of either party, the elected government of the legislative branch of government?
Barb
Carpe Scrotum
the gist behind the workers in the vinyard is not unions are bad intense???
at least, i do not believe so at all!!!
if memory serves (i have not reread it yet), this parable's lesson is quite the opposite...its message is to EXPECT to be paid, what you agreed to, AHEAD of Time....not more, not less....but what was AGREED TO...be ''a man of your word''...lesson is in there.
IF anything, in the case of the auto workers and their corporations like GM etc employers, their employer through negotiations... AGREED to the terms of employment/pay/benefits that the workers proposed...but GM and the likes are NOW RENEGING to those agreements in pay and benefits.... the employer has broke their word or the owner has broken his word...can you see that Intense?
care
at least, i do not believe so at all!!!
if memory serves (i have not reread it yet), this parable's lesson is quite the opposite...its message is to EXPECT to be paid, what you agreed to, AHEAD of Time....not more, not less....but what was AGREED TO...be ''a man of your word''...lesson is in there.
IF anything, in the case of the auto workers and their corporations like GM etc employers, their employer through negotiations... AGREED to the terms of employment/pay/benefits that the workers proposed...but GM and the likes are NOW RENEGING to those agreements in pay and benefits.... the employer has broke their word or the owner has broken his word...can you see that Intense?
care
to a degree i do...i still believe they are there for a reason writen in to our constitution, and they are not all entirely evil, and some do try to do their jobs even if sidetracked by campaign donations occasionally.
Each person there in gvt, have their faults, no doubt...so this is why i pay attention as much as i can, to what is going on there and key legislation and often send my representation my thoughts on them.
care
I can't lump all of our Representation in government in to one big label.
Jesus instructed many people in parables to make an object lesson and for the simple reason as clearly stated in the Holy Scriptures. "He (Jesus) answered and said unto them, "Because it has been given to you to know the mysteries of the kingdom (aka the church as referenced to Matthew 16:16-28) of heaven, but to them (the world, as referenced to John 14:17) it has not been given. For whosoever has, to him will be given, and he will have abundance; but whosoever does not have, even what he has will be taken away from him. THEREFORE I SPEAK TO THEM IN PARABLES, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not UNDERSTAND (proving that what was given was the commissioned duty of the Spirit of TRUTH...and that Gift of the Spirit is TRUTH -- Acts 2:38)......AND IN THEM THE PROPHECY OF ISAIAH IS FULFILLED, which says....." -- Matthew 13:11-14.
Jesus Himself informs us just what the commissioned duty of the Holy Spirit is..it was to bring back remembrance to the Apostles of the things that Jesus had instructed -- John 14:26. The Spirit of Truth..aka...the Holy Spirit was commissioned to lead the Apostles into ALL TRUTH -- John 16: 13-15
We are promised to receive the "GIFT of the HOLY SPIRIT" (Acts 2:38)......the Spirit of God is not a "thing" to be possessed, but a divine part of the Godhead one of the 3 that bears record in Heaven -- 1 John 5:7. Whenever the Holy Spirit is mentioned in the Holy Scriptures "HE" is always mentioned as a persona, and individual...not a thing, He always wears the title of, HE, or Him....
The apostles where promised to be endowed with Power from Heaven when 'He' The Holy Spirit fell upon them....delivering the Power of God, not Himself -- Acts 1:8.
Consider with reason and logic. If the Holy Spirit was commissioned to Deliver ALL TRUTH to the Apostles of the First Century (John 16:13, Jude 1:3), and He did and they (the Apostles) instructed that truth and passed it on and even recorded it for future generations.....and THEY DID, as clearly proclaimed by Peter ( 2 Peter 1:12-16). And all this RECORDED TRUTH is self professed to be by inspiration of God, with such being able to make the Man of God...perfect in Doctrine....and it was -- 2 Tim. 3:16-17.
If you ACCEPT THIS truth and study as admonished (2 Tim. 2:15).....ARE you not exampling the PARABLE presented in Matthew Chapter 13.....the more YOU understand and place into use...the more understanding you are given by this HOLY SPIRIT OF TRUTH......who inspired the entire Text of the Holy Bible? Therefore, just what spirit lives inside you (Luke 17:20-21 in the kingdom of God), if you retain that knowledge and wisdom and place it into effect in your daily LIFE? The Holy Spirit of God dwells inside you....no? Are we as Christians not promised the "GIFT" of the Holy Spirit.....and just what Gift can the Holy Spirit possibly have that we are in need of? Of course the very thing that He was commissioned to deliver....TRUTH. The same mission that Jesus had on earth -- John 18:37, Luke 7:22. Did not the Christ declare that He would be with us even until the end of the age? -- Matthew 28:20. Every time that you open the Book and study....is He not there by proxy of that same Holy Spirit of Truth, that lives in you when you understand and accept that truth?
Most importantly....ARE WE NOT COMMANDED to worship not only in SPIRIT...but in TRUTH? -- John 4:24
The true power of God....is the offering of eternal SALVATION though the GOSPEL TRUTH -- Romans 1:16. If anyone is seeking the Holy Spirit for some PERSONAL need or physical want...they have already missed the harvest of knowledge in the faith of Christianity, delivered once for ALL TIME to the saints (of the 1st century, as this record was recorded therein) -- Jude 1:3
Jesus Himself informs us just what the commissioned duty of the Holy Spirit is..it was to bring back remembrance to the Apostles of the things that Jesus had instructed -- John 14:26. The Spirit of Truth..aka...the Holy Spirit was commissioned to lead the Apostles into ALL TRUTH -- John 16: 13-15
We are promised to receive the "GIFT of the HOLY SPIRIT" (Acts 2:38)......the Spirit of God is not a "thing" to be possessed, but a divine part of the Godhead one of the 3 that bears record in Heaven -- 1 John 5:7. Whenever the Holy Spirit is mentioned in the Holy Scriptures "HE" is always mentioned as a persona, and individual...not a thing, He always wears the title of, HE, or Him....
The apostles where promised to be endowed with Power from Heaven when 'He' The Holy Spirit fell upon them....delivering the Power of God, not Himself -- Acts 1:8.
Consider with reason and logic. If the Holy Spirit was commissioned to Deliver ALL TRUTH to the Apostles of the First Century (John 16:13, Jude 1:3), and He did and they (the Apostles) instructed that truth and passed it on and even recorded it for future generations.....and THEY DID, as clearly proclaimed by Peter ( 2 Peter 1:12-16). And all this RECORDED TRUTH is self professed to be by inspiration of God, with such being able to make the Man of God...perfect in Doctrine....and it was -- 2 Tim. 3:16-17.
If you ACCEPT THIS truth and study as admonished (2 Tim. 2:15).....ARE you not exampling the PARABLE presented in Matthew Chapter 13.....the more YOU understand and place into use...the more understanding you are given by this HOLY SPIRIT OF TRUTH......who inspired the entire Text of the Holy Bible? Therefore, just what spirit lives inside you (Luke 17:20-21 in the kingdom of God), if you retain that knowledge and wisdom and place it into effect in your daily LIFE? The Holy Spirit of God dwells inside you....no? Are we as Christians not promised the "GIFT" of the Holy Spirit.....and just what Gift can the Holy Spirit possibly have that we are in need of? Of course the very thing that He was commissioned to deliver....TRUTH. The same mission that Jesus had on earth -- John 18:37, Luke 7:22. Did not the Christ declare that He would be with us even until the end of the age? -- Matthew 28:20. Every time that you open the Book and study....is He not there by proxy of that same Holy Spirit of Truth, that lives in you when you understand and accept that truth?
Most importantly....ARE WE NOT COMMANDED to worship not only in SPIRIT...but in TRUTH? -- John 4:24
The true power of God....is the offering of eternal SALVATION though the GOSPEL TRUTH -- Romans 1:16. If anyone is seeking the Holy Spirit for some PERSONAL need or physical want...they have already missed the harvest of knowledge in the faith of Christianity, delivered once for ALL TIME to the saints (of the 1st century, as this record was recorded therein) -- Jude 1:3
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yes, of course we are commissioned to do such, and yes....i believe every thing came from God and is truth in the Bible....and i try to read the Bible every day...
however, i do not believe 'all' that have read the Word, know the true meaning of it or truly believe in it...even some that SAY they do or are suppose to, such as the Levite and the Priest in the good samaritan story, really are clueless to the 'truth' within the Word....
even in the parable of the sheep and the goats....both were SURPRISED at their judgment.
Both recognized Christ as Lord...so it appears those in both groups knew Him as Lord and savior, but i am unclear on what this really means, but it could be assumed that there were those who claimed to have been Saved or believers in both the sheep and in the goats crowd, and even assumed that there were people who did not even recognize their own Holy Spirit driven life, like the good Samaritan man that ended up with the sheep?
those that Christ praised and rewarded with heaven...were shocked and asked Christ, 'Lord, when did we feed you, clothe you, visit you in prison etc and do all those things to you???' These people just always did what was right and just, in all parts of their lives, when it came to the least among them...without even knowing it...
those that Christ condemned also addressed him as Lord, and were shocked at what Christ said to them and asked him, 'Lord, when did we not feed you, not clothe you, not visit you in prison etc??? These people thought they were righteous and would never have turned down Christ if he were in those kind of situations listed in the parable.
i guess what i believe the story hidden behind the story in those 2 parables is that there are those who think they are the righteous like the levite, the priest and even some of those put on Christ's left in the sheep and the goats were people claiming to be believers, but truly were not and had not taken in the Holy Spirit....
Faith without works, is Dead theory...
and some on the right, were shocked that they were on the right and being rewarded because they were not overly religious so to say yet still lived Holy lives, and people like the good Samaritan who was not well versed in the Word or religion itself but his actions showed God at work within him, through his works.
what's your take on that ralph?
care
Ravi
Diamond Member
- Thread starter
- #212
I wasn't thinking about health care when I posed the original question but I have to address your points above.
Just supporting health care affordability for all is NOT helping the poor? Really?
What about the middle class and the lower classes that know this bill will cost them personally...don't they get brownie points from Jesus, too? I think they would.
This is actually why I've never begrudged paying taxes. Sitting through all those Sunday sermons at least instilled a sense of feeling for the rest of the people I share the country with and I've never had a problem contributing to the welfare of the country as a whole or individuals.
Guess that means I'm going straight through the Pearly gates!
I wasn't thinking about health care when I posed the original question but I have to address your points above.
Just supporting health care affordability for all is NOT helping the poor? Really?
What about the middle class and the lower classes that know this bill will cost them personally...don't they get brownie points from Jesus, too? I think they would.
This is actually why I've never begrudged paying taxes. Sitting through all those Sunday sermons at least instilled a sense of feeling for the rest of the people I share the country with and I've never had a problem contributing to the welfare of the country as a whole or individuals.
Guess that means I'm going straight through the Pearly gates!
Making sure Everybody has Access to the $500.00 Band-aid does not address the problem of the unfair cost, it encourages more of it, not less. What is being proposed will multiply the problem, not fix it.
As Jesus quite clearly said in the Parable in Matthew 13, "He (Jesus) answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven (the kingdom is the kingdom that Christ constructed here in the 1st century, as promised by Jesus....before some standing here taste death the Son of Man will come with His kingdom, which is synonymous and interchangeable with 'chruch' as observed in Matthew 16:16-28, and that KINGDOM did come Acts 1-2), but TO THEM (the world at large...those lacking the understanding...the truth of the Spirit can not be understood, as declared by Jesus in John 14:17)....IT IS NOT GIVEN. (thus, some cannot see the truth, even though they have eyes to see and ears to hear..they lack understanding).
Why do they lack understanding? Is it because God has respect of person and hides that understanding from them? Of course not......its simply because those that do not understand..REFUSE the command, "STUDY TO SHOW THYSELF APPROVED UNTO GOD....a workman that needth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of TRUTH......BUT SHUN PROFANE and vain babblings; for they will increase unto more ungodliness. (what did Jesus declare in the Parable of Matt. 13......if you did not increase what you had been given, all of it would be taken away.) -- 2 Tim 2:15-16.
You declare that YOU do not believe that ALL PEOPLE have the ability to understand the word of God......your belief is moot and WRONG, this is another FALSE PREMISE by which you wish to begin your argument. (as it is based upon your SUBJECTIVE personal opinion lacking the OBSERVED and demonstrable OBJECTIVE evidence offered in SCRIPTURE) As clearly demonstrated in the revealed word of God.....everyone has the inherit ability to understand and know the WILL OF GOD as revealed in the Word of God.
We are clearly informed in the revealed and written word of God that He had established a plan for man's ultimate salvation and the destruction of the rebellious fallen one (SATAN). This plan is directed through the birth, life, death, and resurrection of His only begotten Son, Christ Jesus....God has had this plan even before the worlds were created ( 1 Peter 1:20), or before time itself began ( 2 Tim. 1:9).
We are also told in the written word of God of the fact of this plan being HIDDEN from mankind for a awhile (Eph. 3:5,6), and even from the prophets who first revealed it ( 1 Peter 1:10-12). Also within this record of written declaration from God we are further informed of how this plan was to finally be revealed to all mankind....it would be revealed by the Apostles of Christ at the appropriate time and choosing of God, through the inspiration of the Holy Spirit of Truth ( Eph. 3:5).
We are directly told that when we read that inspired revelation which was written and recorded in EPISTLE format.....we CAN understand it. (Eph. 3:4). We are COMMANDED to understand the will of God...when He reveals it. (Eph. 5:17). As God reveals ONLY those things that He wishes to reveal about him self in order that we might understand His righteous laws and precepts and walk therein FORE EVER....everything else is SECRET and belongs only to God, but what is revealed belongs to US...everyone, FOREVER (Deut. 29:29)
You make the false premise that ALL men cannot understand the will of God....but God clearly and quite unambiguously declares that He would have ALL MEN saved and come to the knowledge of the truth ( 1 Tim. 2:3,4)....its most difficult to come to the knowledge of the truth....and allow that WORD to call you (Rom. 10:17), if you refuse to study as commanded ( 2 Tim: 2:15)...no?
When you consider these things in reasoned LOGIC and comprehension we can come to only one conclusion. If God desires that ALL men come to the knowledge of the truth.....we can be assured that IT IS POSSIBLE, for with God all things are possible. Since He COMMANDS us to understand His Will...rest assured, God would not COMMAND something that is NOT POSSIBLE, because God cannot nor will not LIE ( Numbers 23:19, Romans 3:4, Deut. 32:4, 1 Sam. 15:29, Titus 1:1-2). We can also be assured that we can UNDERSTAND His word when we READ IT...it is not only very possible but necessary.
But NO ONE can understand......if they refuse to read it, and STUDY in reasoned logic what they have just read.
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HUGGY
I Post Because I Care
Another example or your ad hominem skills of articulation, or lack thereof? The least that you could do is whistle a tune. But...if that's all you got..that's all you got, and must be.......
Of course a THREAD bearing the title of the CHRIST...has absolutely nothing to do with religion or the faith of Christianity.
You are nothing if not delirious. See sparky..I was gonna leave quietly but then you had to open up your crazy pie hole. Do you really want to debate me on your hypocritical filthy blood sucking pedophile protecting fear mongering fairy tale religion?
Oh...
Another example or your ad hominem skills of articulation, or lack thereof? The least that you could do is whistle a tune. But...if that's all you got..that's all you got, and must be.......
Of course a THREAD bearing the title of the CHRIST...has absolutely nothing to do with religion or the faith of Christianity.
You are nothing if not delirious. See sparky..I was gonna leave quietly but then you had to open up your crazy pie hole. Do you really want to debate me on your hypocritical filthy blood sucking pedophile protecting fear mongering fairy tale religion?
Sure...why not? Ad hominem bigotry void of any demonstrable truth is easily handled.
HUGGY
I Post Because I Care
Another example or your ad hominem skills of articulation, or lack thereof? The least that you could do is whistle a tune. But...if that's all you got..that's all you got, and must be.......
Of course a THREAD bearing the title of the CHRIST...has absolutely nothing to do with religion or the faith of Christianity.
You are nothing if not delirious. See sparky..I was gonna leave quietly but then you had to open up your crazy pie hole. Do you really want to debate me on your hypocritical filthy blood sucking pedophile protecting fear mongering fairy tale religion?
Sure...why not? Ad hominem bigotry void of any demonstrable truth is easily handled.
What is that?... your new word for the day?
Here is your demonstrable proof. Existance in itself puts the burden of proof on the subject deemed in existance. There is no proof of the existance of god ..therefore god does not exist. It is not the responsibility of those not seeing, touching..or hearing a god to prove it does not exist.
Why would you suppose that anyone would want to KNOW your personal opinion of what you THINK God wants to reveal to man...when all they have to do is GO TO THE SOURCE and be enlightened? You attempt to argue about the content of the Holy Scriptures by presenting your Private Interpretation of what YOU THINK the scriptures say. You have NO part nor lot in attempting to inform anyone of what God is saying, WHEN YOU INJECT YOUR PERSONAL opinion into the context of that revealed message.
In all your long winded dogmatic diatribe.....as Dogma is just that, a personal belief that cannot be supported by EVIDENCE, you...not one time, supported your position or debunked anything that was offered from the scriptures...with DEMONSTRABLE WORDS that are OBJECTIVE to anyone that wishes to read and comprehend them. You validated NONE....-0-, null.......NOTHING that you arguing with the WORD OF GOD by proving your position by BOOK, CHAPTER and VERSE. First you declare, "Not everyone can understand the word of God." Clearly a FALSE PREMISE and debunked by the Scriptures themselves by BOOK, Chapter, and Verse. Then you who claim to be SERVANT of GOD...DENY what you have written, when confronted. TRUTH does not contract itself....as your words have just proven themselves to do.
Just what is the use to REASON void of logic and ARGUE in circles? You have just proven why some people can not understand the inspired word of the Holy Spirit of Truth.......you reject the revealed TRUTH when presented by Book, Chapter and Verse....and attempt to rationalize your PRIVATE interpretation as paramount...directly in contradiction to the COMMAND OF GOD who clearly informs us that Prophecy is not privately interpreted. It is to be read and understood, the prophet has already interpreted that inspired revelation.....when it is presented in COMPREHENSIBLE TEXT AND CONTEXT.
"And so we have the prophetic word CONFIRMED (conformation does not need interpretation), which you do well heed as a light that shines in a dark place (that word is revealed to shine a light on YOUR LIFE.....not the inverse, YOUR LIFE does not or can not shine a light on GOD by YOUR INTERPRETATION), until the day dawns and the morning star rises in YOUR HEART (who is the morning star? the scriptures interpret themselves..the morning star is the CHRIST as referenced to Rev. 22:16, they do not need and even forbid the injection of YOUR PERSONAL OPINION); KNOW THIS FIRST, THAT NO PROPHECY OF SCRIPTURE IS OF ANY PRIVATE INTERPRETATION, for prophecy never came by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the HOLY SPIRIT." -- 2 Peter 1:19-21
Peter is clearly stating that since prophetic words were confirmed (through the miracles accompanying their giving ( Hebrews 2:3-4)......clearly SOMETHING THE MORMONS have failed to do....CONFIRM the BOOK OF MORMON with signs and wonders, and The Pearl of Great Price...simply cannot lay claim to, void of lying. For there has been NO confirmed miracles from the time the New Testament was made PERFECT or COMPLETE ( 1 Cor. 13) in the 1st century.
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