Why we need a public option!

[Revere]

I'm not assuming that; and having read #41, the argument is sound but does not have the force of law. I suggest reading Hamilton's take in #78 and letting the USSC rule on the Constitutional question. If they too find that universal healthcare is a usurption of power by the Federal Government then the effort might best be settled in the several states, or, an amendment to our Constitution be put forth allowing a national referandum on the issue.
I have argued that defending our citizenry from a virus or a terrorist is little different, and that the latter might create harm in a localized community but the former might effect the whole of our nation.

ok, and thats perfectly reasonable as long as during your quest for UHC and public option that you understand the other view and do not rely on appeal to emotion like 99% of the pro-UHC people do. This is a serious issue, and I do support the amendment process 100%, no matter what the amendment is, I believe that if following the legal guidelines that any amendment is legitimate. So, good luck.

Universal PREVENTATIVE healthcare makes sense and cents. That is my position.

it produces nothing measurable, and it's not free and government can't make it universal.

 

[Ringel05]

I already have a public option. If I choose not to drive I can always take a bus or the metro, both of which are experiencing huge red ink and maintenance issues.

 

[Immanuel]

Nearly 59 million lack health insurance: CDC - Yahoo! News

Call it what you will, a public option providing free preventative health care is cost-effective, providing long term benefits to individuals and the nation as a whole.
The effort by some, in particular those who hope to develop publc policy along ideological guidelines, will put even those with excellent private insurance at risk should a pandemic or worse come to America.

If it were truly an "option", that would be one thing, but the way it appears to me is that it will not be an option, it will be the only game in town. That is no option. The public "option" would squeeze out the private competition and in just a matter of a few years the government would control our health care.

Some of you may think that is hunky-dorey I think it is a disaster in the making.

Immie

 

[Bern80]

Universal PREVENTATIVE healthcare makes sense and cents. That is my position.

Wonderful. There are all kinds of things that make sense. But the road to tyranny is paved with good intentions. And you can not ignore the constitution because of what you think makes sense or is compassionate. You have to start seeing the forest for the trees at some point. At some point you have to remove health care from the discussion and focus on what it means in the abstract for your freedom and the future of the concept of freedom in this country. Healthcare is the particular battlefield at this point. You happen to be on the side of wanting government to run healthcare so it sound fine and compassionate to you. But at some point, or maybe already has, government is going to step into a part of your life that you DON'T want it to. And when that time comes, you will not have a legal leg to stand on. You rationalized an infringement on your liberty once. What rationalization are you going to come up with that has any credibiltiy at all for governmetn to NOT infringe on it in the future? There is a reason Franklin said that those who who would sacrafice freedom for a little security deserve neither freedom, nor security.

 

[Wry Catcher]

Nearly 59 million lack health insurance: CDC - Yahoo! News

Call it what you will, a public option providing free preventative health care is cost-effective, providing long term benefits to individuals and the nation as a whole.
The effort by some, in particular those who hope to develop publc policy along ideological guidelines, will put even those with excellent private insurance at risk should a pandemic or worse come to America.

If it were truly an "option", that would be one thing, but the way it appears to me is that it will not be an option, it will be the only game in town. That is no option. The public "option" would squeeze out the private competition and in just a matter of a few years the government would control our health care.

Some of you may think that is hunky-dorey I think it is a disaster in the making.

Immie

I believe it's the Slippery slope fallacy.

 

[Liberty]

Nearly 59 million lack health insurance: CDC - Yahoo! News

Call it what you will, a public option providing free preventative health care is cost-effective, providing long term benefits to individuals and the nation as a whole.
The effort by some, in particular those who hope to develop publc policy along ideological guidelines, will put even those with excellent private insurance at risk should a pandemic or worse come to America.

If it were truly an "option", that would be one thing, but the way it appears to me is that it will not be an option, it will be the only game in town. That is no option. The public "option" would squeeze out the private competition and in just a matter of a few years the government would control our health care.

Some of you may think that is hunky-dorey I think it is a disaster in the making.

Immie

I believe it's the Slippery slope fallacy.

it has legitimate basis in historical context though...

 

[Revere]

Nearly 59 million lack health insurance: CDC - Yahoo! News

Call it what you will, a public option providing free preventative health care is cost-effective, providing long term benefits to individuals and the nation as a whole.
The effort by some, in particular those who hope to develop publc policy along ideological guidelines, will put even those with excellent private insurance at risk should a pandemic or worse come to America.

If it were truly an "option", that would be one thing, but the way it appears to me is that it will not be an option, it will be the only game in town. That is no option. The public "option" would squeeze out the private competition and in just a matter of a few years the government would control our health care.

Some of you may think that is hunky-dorey I think it is a disaster in the making.

Immie

I believe it's the Slippery slope fallacy.

No. We don't want another failed entitlement where Social Security came from.

 

[Immanuel]

If it were truly an "option", that would be one thing, but the way it appears to me is that it will not be an option, it will be the only game in town. That is no option. The public "option" would squeeze out the private competition and in just a matter of a few years the government would control our health care.

Some of you may think that is hunky-dorey I think it is a disaster in the making.

Immie

I believe it's the Slippery slope fallacy.

No. We don't want another failed entitlement where Social Security came from.

Some do.

Especially if for a while they can claim that Obama is the greatest American in history.

They, like Congress, think that we don't have to think about Government spending. There is nothing at all to worry about. We can just keep taxing and/or borrowing trillions of dollars every year and nothing bad will ever come out of that.

Immie

 

[Wry Catcher]

Universal PREVENTATIVE healthcare makes sense and cents. That is my position.

Wonderful. There are all kinds of things that make sense. But the road to tyranny is paved with good intentions. And you can not ignore the constitution because of what you think makes sense or is compassionate. You have to start seeing the forest for the trees at some point. At some point you have to remove health care from the discussion and focus on what it means in the abstract for your freedom and the future of the concept of freedom in this country. Healthcare is the particular battlefield at this point. You happen to be on the side of wanting government to run healthcare so it sound fine and compassionate to you. But at some point, or maybe already has, government is going to step into a part of your life that you DON'T want it to. And when that time comes, you will not have a legal leg to stand on. You rationalized an infringement on your liberty once. What rationalization are you going to come up with that has any credibiltiy at all for governmetn to NOT infringe on it in the future? There is a reason Franklin said that those who who would sacrafice freedom for a little security deserve neither freedom, nor security.

This is one more post 'paved' with cliches, straw man arguments, and fear mongering.
I've suggested this before, but I will again:
We have control over the government, it's called a vote; we do not have control over the boardroom. We cannot vote out a CEO**.

Health insurance companies make life or death decisions everyday, based not on life or death, but on their bottom line.
I'm not advocating a government takeover of the health insurance industry, nor do I believe a public option will force private insurance out of business.
I believe providing PREVENTATIVE healthcare to each citizen as a birthright is the proper and practical thing to do. It makes sense and cents - even for the insurance industry.
Much disease is preventable, such is the goal I support. Education, preventative medicine and early detection will reduce the need for private insurance to pay claims and will mitiage the pain and suffering of our people.
It will in fact reduce the costs of days of work missed by employees, helping the whole range of business and industry in our country.
A public option, offering a basic medical insurance will compete with private sector insurance driving costs down, but if limited by law to emergency treatment, costs will go down and private sector insurance can thrive by offering more comprehensive options and greater choices.

** One might argue the 'Market' will cause prices to go down and service to go up, so in fact we vote with our pocket book. If true, why hasn't this happened?

 

[Liberty]

CEO's can't build armies, declare war, print their own money, have their own laws, confiscate wealth involuntarily, etc etc.

I can't believe you would make such a silly comparison.

 

[Immanuel]

Universal PREVENTATIVE healthcare makes sense and cents. That is my position.

Wonderful. There are all kinds of things that make sense. But the road to tyranny is paved with good intentions. And you can not ignore the constitution because of what you think makes sense or is compassionate. You have to start seeing the forest for the trees at some point. At some point you have to remove health care from the discussion and focus on what it means in the abstract for your freedom and the future of the concept of freedom in this country. Healthcare is the particular battlefield at this point. You happen to be on the side of wanting government to run healthcare so it sound fine and compassionate to you. But at some point, or maybe already has, government is going to step into a part of your life that you DON'T want it to. And when that time comes, you will not have a legal leg to stand on. You rationalized an infringement on your liberty once. What rationalization are you going to come up with that has any credibiltiy at all for governmetn to NOT infringe on it in the future? There is a reason Franklin said that those who who would sacrafice freedom for a little security deserve neither freedom, nor security.

This is one more post 'paved' with cliches, straw man arguments, and fear mongering.
I've suggested this before, but I will again:
We have control over the government, it's called a vote; we do not have control over the boardroom. We cannot vote out a CEO**.

Health insurance companies make life or death decisions everyday, based not on life or death, but on their bottom line.
I'm not advocating a government takeover of the health insurance industry, nor do I believe a public option will force private insurance out of business.
I believe providing PREVENTATIVE healthcare to each citizen as a birthright is the proper and practical thing to do. It makes sense and cents - even for the insurance industry.
Much disease is preventable, such is the goal I support. Education, preventative medicine and early detection will reduce the need for private insurance to pay claims and will mitiage the pain and suffering of our people.
It will in fact reduce the costs of days of work missed by employees, helping the whole range of business and industry in our country.
A public option, offering a basic medical insurance will compete with private sector insurance driving costs down, but if limited by law to emergency treatment, costs will go down and private sector insurance can thrive by offering more comprehensive options and greater choices.

** One might argue the 'Market' will cause prices to go down and service to go up, so in fact we vote with our pocket book. If true, why hasn't this happened?

I have always (and still do) view you as a reasonable liberal voice on site.

I understand what you are saying here, but I don't think it will work as you think it will. I think the public "option" will work to eliminate the private option completely. Any private insurance companies left will be puppets of the government so limited in what they can offer as to being ridiculously regulated.

The public option will have the benefit of a taxing authority to provide its needs so that it will completely undercut the private insurance companies and they will not be able to compete.

I truly believe this to be bad policy and quite frankly, I believe it will have detrimental effects on our economy in the years to come.

Providing health insurance for those who cannot afford it is in my estimation a very good thing. I, for one, in disagreement with other conservatives, am not opposed to paying higher taxes to supply those who want and need insurance with the necessities. However, I fear giving the government even a small amount of control of the health insurance industry.

Immie

 

[Revere]

Universal PREVENTATIVE healthcare makes sense and cents. That is my position.

Wonderful. There are all kinds of things that make sense. But the road to tyranny is paved with good intentions. And you can not ignore the constitution because of what you think makes sense or is compassionate. You have to start seeing the forest for the trees at some point. At some point you have to remove health care from the discussion and focus on what it means in the abstract for your freedom and the future of the concept of freedom in this country. Healthcare is the particular battlefield at this point. You happen to be on the side of wanting government to run healthcare so it sound fine and compassionate to you. But at some point, or maybe already has, government is going to step into a part of your life that you DON'T want it to. And when that time comes, you will not have a legal leg to stand on. You rationalized an infringement on your liberty once. What rationalization are you going to come up with that has any credibiltiy at all for governmetn to NOT infringe on it in the future? There is a reason Franklin said that those who who would sacrafice freedom for a little security deserve neither freedom, nor security.

This is one more post 'paved' with cliches, straw man arguments, and fear mongering.
I've suggested this before, but I will again:
We have control over the government, it's called a vote; we do not have control over the boardroom. We cannot vote out a CEO**.

Health insurance companies make life or death decisions everyday, based not on life or death, but on their bottom line.
I'm not advocating a government takeover of the health insurance industry, nor do I believe a public option will force private insurance out of business.
I believe providing PREVENTATIVE healthcare to each citizen as a birthright is the proper and practical thing to do. It makes sense and cents - even for the insurance industry.
Much disease is preventable, such is the goal I support. Education, preventative medicine and early detection will reduce the need for private insurance to pay claims and will mitiage the pain and suffering of our people.
It will in fact reduce the costs of days of work missed by employees, helping the whole range of business and industry in our country.
A public option, offering a basic medical insurance will compete with private sector insurance driving costs down, but if limited by law to emergency treatment, costs will go down and private sector insurance can thrive by offering more comprehensive options and greater choices.

** One might argue the 'Market' will cause prices to go down and service to go up, so in fact we vote with our pocket book. If true, why hasn't this happened?

Markets don't give you all the gifts you want, unless you think a market gives you obscene public employee pensions.

 

[bigtalker]

Healthcare for all citizens is the responsibility of all people in a society. Having fair and equal healthcare when needed is NOT a privilege but a RIGHT as a member of society. We are all in this together or we are not. - quote from american christian society website
this is not talking about communism - about unity in community
it is not free - we pull our resorces together out of one flat rate income tax
yes, I know the gov. is out of controll - but in a better society this is how it should be done.
Unfortunately people are afraid of these programs because we are being ruled (very badly) and not governed

 

[Revere]

Healthcare for all citizens is the responsibility of all people in a society. Having fair and equal healthcare when needed is NOT a privilege but a RIGHT as a member of society. We are all in this together or we are not. - quote from american christian society website
this is not talking about communism - about unity in community
it is not free - we pull our resorces together out of one flat rate income tax
yes, I know the gov. is out of controll - but in a better society this is how it should be done.
Unfortunately people are afraid of these programs because we are being ruled (very badly) and not governed

Your "rights" don't obligate me to pay for them.

 

[bigtalker]

Healthcare for all citizens is the responsibility of all people in a society. Having fair and equal healthcare when needed is NOT a privilege but a RIGHT as a member of society. We are all in this together or we are not. - quote from american christian society website
this is not talking about communism - about unity in community
it is not free - we pull our resorces together out of one flat rate income tax
yes, I know the gov. is out of controll - but in a better society this is how it should be done.
Unfortunately people are afraid of these programs because we are being ruled (very badly) and not governed

Your "rights" don't obligate me to pay for them.

as a member of a society you should want to help your fellow man and have unity while having the ability to keep your individual freedoms and dreams. I don't hear anyone wanting the firedepartment or police private - because we all recognize we need to pull together. no society will prosper with a everyman for himself or kill or be killed logo.

 

[Revere]

Healthcare for all citizens is the responsibility of all people in a society. Having fair and equal healthcare when needed is NOT a privilege but a RIGHT as a member of society. We are all in this together or we are not. - quote from american christian society website
this is not talking about communism - about unity in community
it is not free - we pull our resorces together out of one flat rate income tax
yes, I know the gov. is out of controll - but in a better society this is how it should be done.
Unfortunately people are afraid of these programs because we are being ruled (very badly) and not governed

Your "rights" don't obligate me to pay for them.

as a member of a society you should want to help your fellow man and have unity while having the ability to keep your individual freedoms and dreams. I don't hear anyone wanting the firedepartment or police private - because we all recognize we need to pull together. no society will prosper with a everyman for himself or kill or be killed logo.

Is that the same as government forcing me to pay for your health care?

Am I am I free if government keeps 50 or 60 percent of what I earn?

 

[Wry Catcher]

CEO's can't build armies, declare war, print their own money, have their own laws, confiscate wealth involuntarily, etc etc.

I can't believe you would make such a silly comparison.

LOL, I can't believe you would go there. Did you consider Black Hawk, the sales of Bonds, the actions of preditory banks and and the horde of lawyers and lobbyists engaged in law making?
But that's the silly part of your criticism. We have some control over our government, we have much less control over the actions of a CEO, that's the point.

 

[Oddball]

Healthcare for all citizens is the responsibility of all people in a society. Having fair and equal healthcare when needed is NOT a privilege but a RIGHT as a member of society. We are all in this together or we are not. - quote from american christian society website
this is not talking about communism - about unity in community
it is not free - we pull our resorces together out of one flat rate income tax
yes, I know the gov. is out of controll - but in a better society this is how it should be done.
Unfortunately people are afraid of these programs because we are being ruled (very badly) and not governed

Your "rights" don't obligate me to pay for them.

as a member of a society you should want to help your fellow man and have unity while having the ability to keep your individual freedoms and dreams. I don't hear anyone wanting the firedepartment or police private - because we all recognize we need to pull together. no society will prosper with a everyman for himself or kill or be killed logo.

Red herring, strawman and empty platitudes.

Congratulations...You hit the logical fallacy trifecta.

 

[The Rabbi]

Healthcare for all citizens is the responsibility of all people in a society. Having fair and equal healthcare when needed is NOT a privilege but a RIGHT as a member of society. We are all in this together or we are not. - quote from american christian society website
this is not talking about communism - about unity in community
it is not free - we pull our resorces together out of one flat rate income tax
yes, I know the gov. is out of controll - but in a better society this is how it should be done.
Unfortunately people are afraid of these programs because we are being ruled (very badly) and not governed

From each according to his ability to each according to his need? Is that it, comrade?

I hate having some idiot tell me what my responsibility is to society.

 

[Revere]

CEO's can't build armies, declare war, print their own money, have their own laws, confiscate wealth involuntarily, etc etc.

I can't believe you would make such a silly comparison.

LOL, I can't believe you would go there. Did you consider Black Hawk, the sales of Bonds, the actions of preditory banks and and the horde of lawyers and lobbyists engaged in law making?
But that's the silly part of your criticism. We have some control over our government, we have much less control over the actions of a CEO, that's the point.

Why should government control the actions of CEOs, more than they already do?